Car Enthusiast Club [Now Motorcycle friendly!] - First thread to 150k! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[AlwaysFSX]

What I'm about to say isn't necessarily directed at you, specifically, but everyone here complaining about smaller turbocharged engines vs larger NA engines, in general. 

 

I love an awesome V8, don't get me wrong. But I actually prefer smaller turbo'd engines over larger NA engines and the main reason being; because technology. What you might not realize is that you can actually get a wider and more usable power band from a smaller turbo engine vs a larger NA engine. Turbochargers basically allow optimal volumetric efficiency across a much wider rpm range - which means the cylinders are being "filled" more effectively while in boost. More usable power = better, IMO. 

 

In my 1.8T Golf, I can accelerate up steep hills from 2000rpm in 5th by just riding the torque wave thanks to the boost from the turbo. This is also actually far less stressful on an engine compared to down-shifting and revving it higher. Higher rpm operation puts more stress/strain on internal components vs simply making more power via adding boost. Higher powered NA engines generally must rev higher to make said power (because it's necessary to achieve that higher volumetric efficiency).

 

Turbocharged engines can also be more efficient under cruising conditions. The compressor can actually help improve volumetric efficiency even while not producing any boost. The less "work" the engine has to do to breathe, the more efficient it will run (less wasted energy).

 

So, let's tally this up...

-More usable power (more torque, same or more horsepower).

-Less stress on components. 

-More efficient operation.

 

It's better in nearly every way. And let's not forget ease of power upgrade-ability. How do you get a significant power increase from an NA engine? You have to change the cams, raise compression, rev it even higher etc. or... add forced induction (hmmm. ). How do you get a significant power increase from a factory turbocharged engine? Simply turn up the boost in many cases and or simply get it tuned/chipped. No other part changes or physical work is necessary. For my Golf, I could pay $650 for a GIAC stage 1 ECU re-flash at a local speed shop and drive away with 50+ extra HP and 50+ extra ft-lbs, without even having to pop the hood. To get 50 extra HP and TQ from a VR6, for example, you'd have to install a turbo or do some series engine work and tuning to get there.

 

TL;DR - Turbos > everything. Turbos 4 life!

 

There is a replacement for displacement, it's called a turbo.

 

And yeah, V8's sound cool, but I actually like the way turbo's sound over V8's. V8 + turbo, well, that's just glorious music.

I like the part about making power across the rev-range.

[chaozbandit]

 

Assetto Corsa > any NFS game, ever, indefinitely.

 

 

I've been there a number of times but have only done laps in Assetto.

 

-sniiiiiiiiiiip-

 

TL;DR - Turbos > everything. Turbos 4 life!

 

There is a replacement for displacement, it's called a turbo.

 

And yeah, V8's sound cool, but I actually like the way turbo's sound over V8's. V8 + turbo, well, that's just glorious music.

 

Too bad the AC port of Mosport is trash, and nobody's bothered recoding any other version Watkins Glen is a decent compromise, I guess.

 

Turbo 4-pots + electric hybrid AWD is where it's at, as shown in the success of DTM and Super GT. Buuuuuut when a platform loses it's V8, you do feel a bit of a void.

 

Good thing modern platforms are built strong enough to withstand minor bumps in boost and flashes, compared to a couple years ago when doing such simple things on stock parts would make big boom.

 

[AlwaysFSX]

Buuuuuut when a platform loses it's V8, you do feel a bit of a void.

I wish we could have the Cobra Jet block back but I don't think environmentalists would take kindly to a 7L V8..

[chaozbandit]

I wish we could have the Cobra Jet block back but I don't think environmentalists would take kindly to a 7L V8..

 

Unfortunately with the way fossil fuels are going, even the advent of hybrid tech can't stop engine displacement from shrinking.

 

In the meantime, enjoy this flamethrower of a Fiat that is a 7.1L naturally aspirated 4-cylinder.

 

[bcredeur97]

I wish we could have the Cobra Jet block back but I don't think environmentalists would take kindly to a 7L V8..

how about that useless Chevy 8.1L V8 they put in the suburban a long time ago?

[AlwaysFSX]

Unfortunately with the way fossil fuels are going, even the advent of hybrid tech can't stop engine displacement from shrinking.

I seriously hope some scientists figure out a way to cheaply and quickly create an extremely energy dense liquid that we can use in replacement of fossil fuels because I like my large V8s.

[chaozbandit]

I seriously hope some scientists figure out a way to cheaply and quickly create an extremely energy dense liquid that we can use in replacement of fossil fuels because I like my large V8s.

 

Audi's already found a synthetic solution, but it's nowhere near consumer ready. It's technically e-diesel, but the formula can be adjusted to work with combustion engines as well since the base components are water and carbon dioxide.

 

 

FYI their experimental e-ethanol mix is rated at RON 100. It's basically race gas, and it makes flames!!

 

[MEC-777]

 

Turbo 4-pots + electric hybrid AWD is where it's at, as shown in the success of DTM and Super GT. Buuuuuut when a platform loses it's V8, you do feel a bit of a void.

 

Good thing modern platforms are built strong enough to withstand minor bumps in boost and flashes, compared to a couple years ago when doing such simple things on stock parts would make big boom.

 

I know it's an odd thing to consider a Mustang or any type of muscle car with anything other than a V8, like it's always been. The thing is, that's just clinging to the "old ways". It used to be, back in the day, that you NEEDED a big V8 to make that kind of power. With turbocharging and modern technology, it's simply not necessary anymore. A 2.0L turbo 4 cylinder can easily make in excess of 300+ horsepower AND torque (and a very wide torque band at that) and do so very reliably, all day, every day. Also, when you realize the sound you're actually hearing is essentially a jet-turbine engine strapped to the block which uses the piston engine as it's combustor, that just makes it all the more fascinating and awesome, (to me anyways).

[AlwaysFSX]

Audi's already found a synthetic solution, but it's nowhere near consumer ready. It's technically e-diesel, but the formula can be adjusted to work with combustion engines as well since the base components are water and carbon dioxide.

 

 

FYI their experimental e-ethanol mix is rated at RON 100. It's basically race gas, and it makes flames!!

Y u gotta kill the page with a gif? D:

 

I just want it to be ready for mass production before large engines get killed off.

 

I wonder if it sounds like a diesel..

[AlwaysFSX]

F-150 Limited has a square exhaust tip. I guess that's interesting?

 

[chaozbandit]

I know it's an odd thing to consider a Mustang or any type of muscle car with anything other than a V8, like it's always been. The thing is, that's just clinging to the "old ways". It used to be, back in the day, that you NEEDED a big V8 to make that kind of power. With turbocharging and modern technology, it's simply not necessary anymore. A 2.0L turbo 4 cylinder can easily make in excess of 300+ horsepower AND torque (and a very wide torque band at that) and do so very reliably, all day, every day. Also, when you realize the sound you're actually hearing is essentially a jet-turbine engine strapped to the block which uses the piston engine as it's combustor, that just makes it all the more fascinating and awesome, (to me anyways).

 

That last part about the jet-turbines made me remember reading through the Lockheed Skunkworks books, and how the original J58 engines in the SR-71 Blackbird (and U2) needed two Buick V8s just to start it

 

 

But yeah as a huuuuuge fan of the EJ boxer platform, I can appreciate the compact yet powerful gains from a turbo-4. Even if you're not a Subaru fan, you have to appreciate the engineering that Misubishi put into the Evo engines considering people can easily push 900+ hp out of those things. It's a shame people aren't giving the Ecoboost mustangs a chance, because they're genuinely good value for money and are a legitimate BRZ/GT-86 alternative, especially when the aftermarket matures a bit.

[Speedyv]

That last part about the jet-turbines made me remember reading through the Lockheed Skunkworks books, and how the original J58 engines in the SR-71 Blackbird (and U2) needed two Buick V8s just to start it

But yeah as a huuuuuge fan of the EJ boxer platform, I can appreciate the compact yet powerful gains from a turbo-4. Even if you're not a Subaru fan, you have to appreciate the engineering that Misubishi put into the Evo engines considering people can easily push 900+ hp out of those things. It's a shame people aren't giving the Ecoboost mustangs a chance, because they're genuinely good value for money and are a legitimate BRZ/GT-86 alternative, especially when the aftermarket matures a bit.

It's the reputation of "v6 mustang is weaaaaak. You probably couldn't afford the 5.0" haha

[AlwaysFSX]

It's a shame people aren't giving the Ecoboost mustangs a chance, because they're genuinely good value for money and are a legitimate BRZ/GT-86 alternative, especially when the aftermarket matures a bit.

I want to go test drive one actually. I'm used to less than refined Mustangs so it should be pretty damn enjoyable. What's even better is the engine makes a lot more HP than the base V6 especially once you tune it and do basic mods.

[AlwaysFSX]

It's the reputation of "v6 mustang is weaaaaak. You probably couldn't afford the 5.0" haha

That and sound, people usually think of a burly grumble when you see a Mustang.

[MEC-777]

That last part about the jet-turbines made me remember reading through the Lockheed Skunkworks books, and how the original J58 engines in the SR-71 Blackbird (and U2) needed two Buick V8s just to start it

 

-snip-

 

But yeah as a huuuuuge fan of the EJ boxer platform, I can appreciate the compact yet powerful gains from a turbo-4. Even if you're not a Subaru fan, you have to appreciate the engineering that Misubishi put into the Evo engines considering people can easily push 900+ hp out of those things. It's a shame people aren't giving the Ecoboost mustangs a chance, because they're genuinely good value for money and are a legitimate BRZ/GT-86 alternative, especially when the aftermarket matures a bit.

 

Lol, two Buick V8's. HAHA! Yeah, the SR71 engines are insane, how they work. They have several different "modes" of operation, depending on speed, altitude etc. 

 

For sure, I'd rock an ecoboost 'Stang. Upgrade the suspension, brakes, rims & tires and turn up the boost. Would run circles around V8 GT's on the track.

[MEC-777]

It's the reputation of "v6 mustang is weaaaaak. You probably couldn't afford the 5.0" haha

 

Then I roll into the boost with the "weak V6" and pull on the 5.0...

 

I know what you mean though.

[AlwaysFSX]

Then I roll into the boost with the "weak V6" and pull on the 5.0...

 

I know what you mean though.

Until someone with a boosted 5.0 shows up.

[chaozbandit]

I want to go test drive one actually. I'm used to less than refined Mustangs so it should be pretty damn enjoyable. What's even better is the engine makes a lot more HP than the base V6 especially once you tune it and do basic mods.

 

The interior quality is soooooo nice, plus you can get it with a stick! Yes you do miss the sound, but it's a car you can actually daily and get decent practicality with it. Plus theres the awesome sixth gen styling, and you don't really lose that much by not getting the V8. 

 

Lol, two Buick V8's. HAHA! Yeah, the SR71 engines are insane, how they work. They have several different "modes" of operation, depending on speed, altitude etc. 

 

For sure, I'd rock an ecoboost 'Stang. Upgrade the suspension, brakes, rims & tires and turn up the boost. Would run circles around V8 GT's on the track.

 

Funny you should mention that, because that's pretty much the current state of the Speedhunters Project Mustang.

 

http://www.speedhunters.com/tag/project-ecoboost/

 

[AlwaysFSX]

The interior quality is soooooo nice, plus you can get it with a stick! Yes you do miss the sound, but it's a car you can actually daily and get decent practicality with it. Plus theres the awesome sixth gen styling, and you don't really lose that much by not getting the V8. 

I've only sat in one once and oh boy was it nice. There's always that voice in the back of my head saying "get a 16, not the project mustang" because they're so much more refined and controlled. But oooh, working on my own car is nice too.

[Real_PhillBert]

 

Assetto Corsa > any NFS game, ever, indefinitely.

 

 

I've been there a number of times but have only done laps in Assetto.

 

 

What I'm about to say isn't necessarily directed at you, specifically, but everyone here complaining about smaller turbocharged engines vs larger NA engines, in general. 

 

I love an awesome V8, don't get me wrong. But I actually prefer smaller turbo'd engines over larger NA engines and the main reason being; because technology. What you might not realize is that you can actually get a wider and more usable power band from a smaller turbo engine vs a larger NA engine. Turbochargers basically allow optimal volumetric efficiency across a much wider rpm range - which means the cylinders are being "filled" more effectively at all times while in boost, where as NA engines are only being "filled" most effectively around the rpm where peak torque is produced. More usable power = better than higher peak power. 

 

In my 1.8T Golf, I can accelerate up steep hills from 2000rpm in 5th by just riding the torque wave thanks to the boost from the turbo. This is also actually far less stressful on an engine compared to down-shifting and revving it higher. Higher rpm operation puts more stress/strain on internal components vs simply making more power via adding boost. Higher powered NA engines generally must rev higher to make said power (because it's necessary to achieve that higher volumetric efficiency).

 

Turbocharged engines can also be more efficient under cruising conditions. The compressor can actually help improve volumetric efficiency even while not producing any boost. The less "work" the engine has to do to breathe, the more efficient it will run (less wasted energy).

 

So, let's tally this up...

-More usable power (more torque, same or more horsepower).

-Less stress on components. 

-More efficient operation.

 

It's better in nearly every way. And let's not forget ease of power upgrade-ability. How do you get a significant power increase from an NA engine? You have to change the cams, raise compression, rev it even higher etc. or... add forced induction (hmmm. ). How do you get a significant power increase from a factory turbocharged engine? Simply turn up the boost in many cases and or simply get it tuned/chipped. No other part changes or physical work is necessary. For my Golf, I could pay $650 for a GIAC stage 1 ECU re-flash at a local speed shop and drive away with 50+ extra HP and 50+ extra ft-lbs, without even having to pop the hood. To get 50 extra HP and TQ from a VR6, for example, you'd have to install a turbo or do some series engine work and tuning to get there.

 

TL;DR - Turbos > everything. Turbos 4 life!

 

There is a replacement for displacement, it's called a turbo.

 

And yeah, V8's sound cool, but I actually like the way turbo's sound over V8's. V8 + turbo, well, that's just glorious music.

 

You seem to have missed the point a bit. These cars do not sell because they are the most advanced things on the planet, but because the market base like the memory of the 70's muscle cars, and a big (arguably the biggest) part of that is the big displacement V8s. So if one of the manufacturers is no longer using V8's while the others are; it will not bode well for them. 

 

For the record I see both NA, and forced induction applications as having their place. A lot of what you are saying is true, and some of it is half truths. Yes a turbo does increase volumetric efficiency considerably, and yes you can create a flat and usable torque curve. But comparing forced induction and naturally aspirated engines is more complex, than what you have stated. Most modern forced induction engines use a lower compression ration compared to their NA counterparts, therefore are actually less efficient (thermodynamically) when not under boost; like stop and go traffic for example. Once the engine is on boost (highway cruising) it is (generally) more efficient.

 

About the only way to really compare the two would be to take a standard engine design say 5L V8, and scale it to 2.5L V8 with forced induction set up to match CFM with the larger sibling. This never really happens though so you are caught drawing conclusions based on an experiment with many variables, comparing an Evo and a Mustang GT is a difficult task. 

 

EDIT: I am not trying to pick on you, I just hate "Always Statements"  I re-read this and it sounds like I am hating on turbos; trust me, I am not. I am a turbo fan as well. I have built a few turbo charged engines for FSAE cars in college. I am even currently shopping for a new turbocharged daily driver. 

[AlwaysFSX]

About the only way to really compare the two would be to take a standard engine design say 5L V8, and scale it to 2.5L V8 with forced induction set up to match CFM with the larger sibling. This never really happens though so you are caught drawing conclusions based on an experiment with many variables, comparing an Evo and a Mustang GT is a difficult task. 

I want a 2.5L V8.. that'd be awesome.

[chaozbandit]

I want a 2.5L V8.. that'd be awesome.

 

Synergy V8 - two Kawasaki ZX12R heads welded together to give a displacement of 2.4L, redline at 11K. Price was $80K USD, shipped fron New Zealand (I think).

 

 

http://www.speedhunters.com/2015/01/kiwi-flavoured-lemon-jun-synergy-brz-v8/

[AlwaysFSX]

Synergy V8 - two Kawasaki ZX12R heads welded together to give a displacement of 2.4L, redline at 11K. Price was $80K USD, shipped fron New Zealand (I think).

[DigitalHermit]

So you guys up there have heard of the 'stang with the factory CF wheels right?

 

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/car-technology/news/a26046/fords-carbon-fiber-gt350r-wheels-use-nasa-technology/

[chaozbandit]

 

It's the price you pay for a hand built, 500hp V8 I guess. There's only two ZN6s I know with this installed so far - the Jun demo car in Japan, and the Synergy R&D car in NZ. Of course, a single 4-cylinder bike platform costs about 10% of this for ~half the power, so there's that.