Car Enthusiast Club [Now Motorcycle friendly!] - First thread to 150k! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[JoaoPRSousa]

The E34 I bought has its share of issues, but this one I cannot understand. The car sometimes just flat out doesn’t start. Cranks fine, sometimes sputters the tiniest bit, but no start.

I still haven’t had the gas tank with more than 20L, but I have a feeling giving it more fuel helps with it starting (has happened once, was probably very very empty tho). I did feed it a bit today but even then, it wouldn’t start. Cranks fine, but sometimes, it just refuses to start, not sure if it’s related to the spark plugs or the fuelling.

Today, after giving it the measly amount of fuel that I did, it cranked for like 5-6 times before starting. Giving it a bit of throttle helps starting, but even that is very random. I can crank it as much as I want and stomp the throttle endlessly, no dice.

Other than that, it runs absolutely fine, which doesn’t help diagnose the problem…

Any ideas? Has anything like this ever happened to you?

 

I am going to change the spark plugs ASAP but also need to check the coils

[Bitter]

Needing throttle to start a crank no start usually means it's not getting enough air (minimum throttle plate setting or IAC issue), it's getting too much fuel (high pressure, pinched return line), or the spark is too weak to light the fuel it's getting (worn plugs, weak power/ground to the ignition coils).

[Sarra]

Well, my Subaru Baja Turbo is now... Not mine anymore. Instead, there's a slightly newer Toyota Tacoma in my parking spot... With a 100% more not failed transmission in it.

[JoaoPRSousa]

4 hours ago, Bitter said:

Needing throttle to start a crank no start usually means it's not getting enough air (minimum throttle plate setting or IAC issue), it's getting too much fuel (high pressure, pinched return line), or the spark is too weak to light the fuel it's getting (worn plugs, weak power/ground to the ignition coils).

Damn. Never thought of the first two, thanks! I’ll see what I can do

[Sarra]

19 minutes ago, JoaoPRSousa said:

Damn. Never thought of the first two, thanks! I’ll see what I can do

[This is a joke, don't actually do it]

 

Try putting 3-5 cans of Ether into it, and give 'er a whirl.

[The_russian]

5 hours ago, Bitter said:

Needing throttle to start a crank no start usually means it's not getting enough air (minimum throttle plate setting or IAC issue), it's getting too much fuel (high pressure, pinched return line), or the spark is too weak to light the fuel it's getting (worn plugs, weak power/ground to the ignition coils).

Where was this when I needed it about a month ago haha

[Bitter]

One more possibility is a weak battery, weak starter, or power/ground issue causing slow cranking. Cranking too slow won't build enough compression quick enough on the compression stroke to get the fuel to ignite when sparked. You might get some flame but it won't be an ignition just a low pressure burn.  Once in a while we see ground or power issues causing the starter to take it's share of electrons and leave other vehicle systems without their electrons, but typically you'd see other symptoms from both of the above, things wouldn't seem 'otherwise normal' when it doesn't start.

 

 

My first items of attention would be to inspect/change spark plugs/inspect ignition coils and boots for burns/arcing, check air filter for clog, check/clean/relearn throttle body, check/clean/relearn IAC (if it has one), then look at fuel pressure. Oh one more thing, if it's got a vacuum FPR check the vacuum line off that for fuel in it or pull the vacuum line off and start the engine, no fuel should come from the vacuum nipple on it! I had a leaking FPR that would flood my intake manifold with fuel at shut down and make the next hot restart highly difficult and make later restarts take longer because the fuel pressure bled down to zero giving me a long crank.

[JoaoPRSousa]

It happened again today, low gas, no start. Fed it a bit, starts normally (after a few cranks). I’ll just have to keep it well fed and not on E all the time xD

[Beerzerker]

8 hours ago, The_russian said:

Where was this when I needed it about a month ago haha

I guess that's what the guy(s) that had my Sprint was asking - They monkeyed around with it but could never get it to run which probrably saved the motor because the oil in it was bad (Water/moisture contaminated). 
That's one of the basic things I check with any engine I don't know anything about before trying it.

Had to change the oil and filter so it would have good oil or it probrably woudn't have ran for long, relying on engine heat to "Dry Out" the oil is stupid when you consider when the oil is too thin you may as well be grinding the components together.
If it isn't lubing the engine, it's not a good situation period.

Anyway, as for why it woudn't run I immediately recognized the problem when I saw it, they didn't have the ignition assembly wired correctly.
The condensor was hooked up so it was grounding out instead of sending fire to the points, they had the condensor pigtail hooked to the plate instead of the connecting pole on the points as it should be, plus the points themselves were gapped like the Grand Canyon.

Redid all that and it started sparking meaning if the engine was any good it would hit and run, which it did.

OK - Just for those that don't know or may be curious:
How do you set points?
Points are really simple once you get it in your head how they work and this is a pic of how they should be setup, in fact it's a pic like the setup in mine.
Do know there are variations of how points setups are done but they all work in the same basic way.




What you see above is the correct setup in how to hookup and install the components for this setup type.
One thing to remember is before starting the work DO NOT leave the ignition on while doing this regardless of vehicle they are in be it a car, tractor or whatever else.
If you do it may remind you in a shocking way so make sure all power to the ignition circuit is off/disconnected.

Note the round silver thing that looks like a capacitor, that's the condensor and yes, it's essentially a capacitor and works in the same basic manner.
Look at where it's pigtail is connected, on the same connector pole the external distributor lead wire is - It does NOT go to the plate below. 
There is a bare/braided wire grounding the plate to the assembly base, that needs to be as shown.
 
Look and you'll see the points have a little arm that makes contact with a cam eccentric right in the middle of the assembly. It rides along this eccentric as it turns to open and close the points, when setting them ALWAYS have the points arm right on the very tip of one of these eccentric spots.

You may have to turn the engine by hand to get it there, usually you can "Bump" the engine over to save effort and speed up the process but to get them in the exact spot needed that's probrably what you'll have to do.

Also note where the yellow arrow is, there is a little slot/groove you can stick the tip of a flathead screwdriver, you simply loosen the two screws (Red arrows) that holds the points themselves in place. 
Use the slot with the screwdriver to set the points gap with a feeler gauge.

Note that when you loosen the points, you don't loosen the screws so it moves freely, only loosen these screws just enough that you can move the points using the slot and screwdriver.
This way it's still under mounting tension yet it can be moved to adjust the gap via your feeler gauge to the specs called for with your specific engine/setup. When you move the points with the screwdriver and slot it will "Hold" whatever gap you set and then you simply tighten the points back down fully again to complete the work once you have the gap itself set. 
Make sure at the end you do have them tight to hold the setting.

If installing a fresh set you just start the two mounting screws in until it's almost tight for setting the gap, usually these screws being snug will be enough to work with and don't forget about the bare/braided wire to the base of the assembly when installing. Once done hook up the condensor and distributor lead wire to the connector pole, tighten the little nut (Normally 5/16th - 8mm wrench) and you should ready.
All the rest applies once you have them in place.

It does look like alot at first but if you ever do one of these you'll see how simple, quick and easy it really is to do.

[Bitter]

Man, last points I set were on a Minarelli V1 2 stroke! Swapped out the stock coil for a Bosch SuperCoil made for a VW/Porsche and that thing would throw spark across a 1mm gap in 14:1CR with 30:1 oil mix, if you have the leg to kick it over or could get it rolling to pop start it. 14:1 is HARD compression but that thing sure could scoot for 75CC...until the carb, exhaust, and gearing limited it at 35mph. Gosh that thing was fun to mess with.

[Beerzerker]

Points were the very first thing I ever worked on and that's how I learned about them.

[Bitter]

1 hour ago, JoaoPRSousa said:

It happened again today, low gas, no start. Fed it a bit, starts normally (after a few cranks). I’ll just have to keep it well fed and not on E all the time xD

When you say 'fed it a bit' you mean you're pumping the throttle pedal when cranking or you're just holding slight throttle? If it's only a problem with low fuel levels it may be a fuel pickup issue, like a missing strainer, perforated strainer, or weak fuel pump.

 

Pumping throttle on a fuel injected car does NOTHING but possibly flood it worse, you're confusing the ECM opening and closing the throttle rapidly at very low speed during starting. Just give it about 1/4 throttle maybe a little less and crank it that way. It'll feed more air to make up for too much fuel (or lack of air) and get it started if that's the issue. If it's a fuel pickup issue it could be the pump taking longer to build pressure at low fuel level due to the pump being weak but usually that would be slow to build pressure any time. A clogged, missing, or perforated strainer could let it suck air at low fuel levels, but I would expect it to suck air when driving and drive poorly too. Odd that it only happens at low fuel levels. May warrant taking a look inside the fuel tank. I've seen a few BMW with incorrectly installed fuel sending units that cause weird issues, some of them need to snap into a ring in the tank bottom to position correctly for the fuel pump pickup and fuel level sender to operate properly.

[Beerzerker]

Could also be a simple case of trash in the tank clogging up the fuel pickup sock.

I've seen before where someone had filled up right after the underground tanks had been topped off by the gas tanker at a station and all the crap at the bottom of the station's holding tank for the pumps was stirred up....
And guess what got pumped right into the tank.

That's why if I need gas and then see the tanks being topped off I keep driving if I can.

Yes, I know they're supposed to have filters on the pumps too but it really depends on who's running the station, some will keep things maintained, others are just too cheap to worry about it.

Thing is, all it takes is that one time of pumping gas and trash and you've got it.

[bcredeur97]

5 hours ago, Beerzerker said:

Could also be a simple case of trash in the tank clogging up the fuel pickup sock.

I've seen before where someone had filled up right after the underground tanks had been topped off by the gas tanker at a station and all the crap at the bottom of the station's holding tank for the pumps was stirred up....
And guess what got pumped right into the tank.

That's why if I need gas and then see the tanks being topped off I keep driving if I can.

Yes, I know they're supposed to have filters on the pumps too but it really depends on who's running the station, some will keep things maintained, others are just too cheap to worry about it.

Thing is, all it takes is that one time of pumping gas and trash and you've got it.

Also helps to only get gas in higher volume places, generally everything is cleaner, and the fuel is newer too, so less chance of putting bad gas in your V12 AMG in the dead of winter  

[JoaoPRSousa]

8 hours ago, Bitter said:

When you say 'fed it a bit' you mean you're pumping the throttle pedal when cranking or you're just holding slight throttle? If it's only a problem with low fuel levels it may be a fuel pickup issue, like a missing strainer, perforated strainer, or weak fuel pump.

 

Pumping throttle on a fuel injected car does NOTHING but possibly flood it worse, you're confusing the ECM opening and closing the throttle rapidly at very low speed during starting. Just give it about 1/4 throttle maybe a little less and crank it that way. It'll feed more air to make up for too much fuel (or lack of air) and get it started if that's the issue. If it's a fuel pickup issue it could be the pump taking longer to build pressure at low fuel level due to the pump being weak but usually that would be slow to build pressure any time. A clogged, missing, or perforated strainer could let it suck air at low fuel levels, but I would expect it to suck air when driving and drive poorly too. Odd that it only happens at low fuel levels. May warrant taking a look inside the fuel tank. I've seen a few BMW with incorrectly installed fuel sending units that cause weird issues, some of them need to snap into a ring in the tank bottom to position correctly for the fuel pump pickup and fuel level sender to operate properly.

Fed it as in put some fuel in the tank.

I got some more today, hopefully I’m good for a few days. 
I had my suspicions regarding the fuel pump or everything in that system.

[Beerzerker]

2 hours ago, bcredeur97 said:

Also helps to only get gas in higher volume places, generally everything is cleaner, and the fuel is newer too, so less chance of putting bad gas in your V12 AMG in the dead of winter  

Can't argue with that, those higher volume places are what they are for good reason.
Even with that it can still happen though making the same headache to deal with.


 

[Bitter]

How low are we talking?

[bcredeur97]

9 hours ago, Bitter said:

How low are we talking?

I’ll give you $5 for it. Best i can do

[AlwaysFSX]

34 minutes ago, bcredeur97 said:

I’ll give you $5 for it. Best i can do

[Bitter]

GF got a flat tire, no one knows how to change flat tire where she works. Drive home to feed dogs, let dogs out, get a bite to eat. 3 minutes from the house the Mazda slips out of gear into neutral, coast into parking lot, drives in 2nd, go back out onto main road, works in 2nd and 3rd and takes off in 1st but it's shifting hard and no speedo, seems like VSS took a shit finally. Look up part, order part, eat something small, wash nasty head from dirty day at work, hop into Celica and drive to city 45 minutes to guide her through installing a spare wheel on her car then we drive home. Stuck DDing the Celica till the new part comes in, shipped new part to work so I can fix my car whenever it comes in. Ordered her 2 new Continental PureContact LS tires and we'll do the other two later, they came in to the shop this afternoon, I'll take the wheel with me to work tomorrow and get that one done.

[bcredeur97]

12 minutes ago, Bitter said:

GF got a flat tire, no one knows how to change flat tire where she works. Drive home to feed dogs, let dogs out, get a bite to eat. 3 minutes from the house the Mazda slips out of gear into neutral, coast into parking lot, drives in 2nd, go back out onto main road, works in 2nd and 3rd and takes off in 1st but it's shifting hard and no speedo, seems like VSS took a shit finally. Look up part, order part, eat something small, wash nasty head from dirty day at work, hop into Celica and drive to city 45 minutes to guide her through installing a spare wheel on her car then we drive home. Stuck DDing the Celica till the new part comes in, shipped new part to work so I can fix my car whenever it comes in. Ordered her 2 new Continental PureContact LS tires and we'll do the other two later, they came in to the shop this afternoon, I'll take the wheel with me to work tomorrow and get that one done.

Not a single person where she works knows how to change a spare tire? Omg lol 

 

figuring out the spare tire and jack situation is like one of the first things I do when I get a new car lol 

 

 can’t say I’m a fan of the bright orange purposefully deflated spare tire of shame that comes with the Touareg, but it’s better than nothing I guess

 

Sorry about your car but sounds like you got it figured out. It’s nice having multiple cars isn’t it? Lol 

[Bitter]

35 minutes ago, bcredeur97 said:

Not a single person where she works knows how to change a spare tire? Omg lol 

 

figuring out the spare tire and jack situation is like one of the first things I do when I get a new car lol 

 

 can’t say I’m a fan of the bright orange purposefully deflated spare tire of shame that comes with the Touareg 

It's a vet hospital, there was one guy and he's got a bad back and the rest are girls in their 20's mostly. I'm sure someone there could have helped her and they'd have figured it out but no one offered except the manager who back out with his old slipped disc excuse. Whatever, it's done and my car didn't get too broken. Only had some kind of can get shot at me from the lane over and tumble under the car.

 

I made her do most of the changing but with my breaker bar and torque wrench to make things easier and safer. I told her I'd get her a torque wrench so she'll feel safe knowing things are tightened enough. Harbor Freight should be fine enough for lug nuts for a spare wheel.

[LauriHimself]

Not sure if it really fits in here ^^ 

Just ordered my first new car ever. 

Only bought pre-owned before. 

So hyped to pick it up mid October. 

Just wanted to share my joy

 

 

 

[Bitter]

36 minutes ago, LauriHimself said:

Not sure if it really fits in here ^^ 

Just ordered my first new car ever. 

Only bought pre-owned before. 

So hyped to pick it up mid October. 

Just wanted to share my joy

 

 

 

 

Niiiiice! More details about it?

[LauriHimself]

2 minutes ago, Bitter said:

Niiiiice! More details about it?

mazda 3 bp

122Hp (gas / mild hybrid) 

lots of extras (bose sound system, HuD, led matrix lights, android auto, can't remember everything as the list is so long ^^.... basically everything exept the top 2 packages, so it's missing leather seats, sunroof etc)

 

if there is anything specific you would like to know i'm happy to answer

seller told me there will be an about an hour long breefing on the tech in the car when i pick it up, as mazda insists every seller does those XD