Is 7.1 bullshit

[Max_Settings]

Just now, pyrojoe34 said:

Even with stereo recording you can get near perfect surround out of headphones (remember, your ears are stereo, only two channels that your brain simulates surround with). If you were to create a perfect anatomical model of your head (same size, material, shape, pinna, etc) and place a mic inside each ear, you could then play that back (in stereo) with speakers inside your ears to create a perfect simulation of surround sound. The trick is that it will only work well for your since it was modeled against your anatomy. You absolutely can have surround using only stereo recording and stereo speakers, it's just very specific to the model used. Current tech has to use an assumption of an "average" anatomy which is one reason it just doesn't work well for everyone. Another reason is that physically-based audio rendering is not common and still far from perfect. Both of these things can be improved and are from from impossible to do.

Yes that's pretty much my point, stereo is perfectly capable of producing sounds from all angles, even if the source is was recorded in stereo. And surround can reproduce surround if it recorded correctly perfectly fine as well. The point is virtual surround doesn't work, software or hitting a button on your headset, That's a determent to your audio experience.

[Max_Settings]

And @pas008 if you notice even Sennheiser's gaming headsets don't use 7.1.

 

Anyway when Sennheiser puts virtual surround in the Orpheus V3, then we'll talk, but until then good day sir! 

[pas008]

8 minutes ago, Max_Settings said:

That's because Sennheiser is smart and knows gamers who know nothing about audio like you won't buy a gaming audio device without 7.1. If they really believed in the tech and it worked it would be on their real high end audio stuff.

wow it virtual do you know the meaning of virtual?

so there is no diffence in using their algorithm?

wow

guess I shouldnt use my ht on my cpu cause algoritms dont work?

 

shall i link the definition of virtual

 

[pyrojoe34]

5 minutes ago, Max_Settings said:

Yes that's pretty much my point, stereo is perfectly capable of producing sounds from all angles, even if the source is was recorded in stereo. And surround can reproduce surround if it recorded correctly perfectly fine as well. The point is virtual surround doesn't work, software or hitting a button on your headset, That's a determent to your audio experience.

I think we're arguing different things. You seem to be saying that virtual surround tech right now is not very good (that's true, it is far from perfect). What you said above though is that a perfect surround experience with stereo headphones/mics is impossible. All I'm saying is that it is not at all impossible and only requires some tech advancements and personalized rendering models to get to the point where your brain cannot tell the difference between virtual surround and "true" surround. As long as the amplitude, frequency, and temporal shifts that reach your eardrums are identical, then the experience will also be identical.

[Max_Settings]

4 minutes ago, pas008 said:

wow

so there is no diffence in using their algorithm?

wow

guess I shouldnt use my ht on my cpu cause algoritms dont work?

That's faulty logic. At what point did I ever say all algorithms don't work? I said virtual surround algorithms suck. Anyway Sennheiser claims there's is different somehow. I still don't believe it's any good, but once I hear it I'll let you know, until then my point stands.

[Max_Settings]

2 minutes ago, pyrojoe34 said:

I think we're arguing different things. You seem to be saying that virtual surround tech right now is not very good (that's true, it is far from perfect). What you said above though is that a perfect surround experience with stereo headphones/mics is impossible. All I'm saying is that it is not at all impossible and only requires some tech advancements and personalized rendering models to get to the point where your brain cannot tell the difference between virtual surround and "true" surround. As long as the amplitude, frequency, and temporal shifts that reach your eardrums are identical, then the experience will also be identical.

I think I had a poor choice of words before. Yes I agree that stereo is perfectly capable of producing a surround experience, but that's only if the audio was recorded in surround, or recorded well in stereo. I am arguing that it is impossible to have 7.1 surround in headphones because there are only 2 drivers not the necessary 7.

[pas008]

3 minutes ago, Max_Settings said:

That's faulty logic. At what point did I ever say all algorithms don't work? I said virtual surround algorithms suck. Anyway Sennheiser claims there is different somehow. I still don't believe it's any good, but once I hear it I'll let you know, until then my point stands.

have you used a yamaha receiver with headphones?

sbx/thx studio pro which I prefer at the moment because of surround adjustments you can make doesnt work

linked a video page back

 

there is a difference and just like anything with sound its a preference

 

and I do agree with you on headphones though I wouldnt want many speakers in them

but virtual surround is whole different thing

[Majinhoju]

I believe Max is also suggesting that turning a Stereo Mix into Surround doesn't give accurate surround.  Meaning a game recorded for Stereo won't be magically turned into 7.1 by hitting the 7.1 button on your headset.  You'll get surround like effects but it wont' be accurate.  Did i interpret this correctly?

[Max_Settings]

1 minute ago, pas008 said:

have you used a yamaha receiver with headphones?

sbx/thx studio pro which I prefer at the moment because of surround adjustments you can make doesnt work

linked a video page back

It depends on the audio source, that's the point you are missing. If the source was recorded in surround then stereo is perfectly capable of reproducing it. But taking a non surround source and converting it through software or whatever else is what I have issues with, that destroys the sound quality.

[Max_Settings]

1 minute ago, Majinhoju said:

I believe Max is also suggesting that turning a Stereo Mix into Surround doesn't give accurate surround.  Meaning a game recorded for Stereo won't be magically turned into 7.1 by hitting the 7.1 button on your headset.  You'll get surround like effects but it wont' be accurate.  Did i interpret this correctly?

Yes correct, it ruins front to back imaging due to the fact that you are missing the drivers that would re responsible for front to back imaging.

[pas008]

Just now, Max_Settings said:

It depends on the audio source, that's the point you are missing. If the source was recorded in surround then stereo is perfectly capable of reproducing it. But taking a non surround source and converting it through software or whatever else is what I have issues with, that destroys the sound quality.

of course but you cant say all virtual is wrong

even with great sound in games or recorded in movies?

have you used sbx?

silent cinema?

3dcmss

[pas008]

4 minutes ago, Max_Settings said:

Yes correct, it ruins front to back imaging due to the fact that you are missing the drivers that would re responsible for front to back imaging.

thats where algorithms come into play

whole different game becomes about preference

 

yes they can hurt a great recorded sound

just like virtual cores can make you lose performance in games

 

 

[an actual squirrel]

59 minutes ago, pyrojoe34 said:

Great video. Explains why using 7.1 with my headset in PUBG makes such a massive difference in game. I went back to stereo for a game and couldn't tell where anything was other than left or right, with 7.1 enabled I can pinpoint sounds much better (including elevation), really changed the game for me.

You can't do elevation reliably with 7.1 audio, that's one of the limtations compared to 3d formats like atmos. To be clear, to get elevation, you need it to exist on the source, with a format like atmos, and you also need an hrtf that supports height channels. Normally, with 7.1 virtual surround, you have only 7 angles in the same plane.

 

1 hour ago, Max_Settings said:

 

First of all you all know what I meant. I meant virtual 7.1 as in headsets. I don't doubt binaural or technologies like Sennheiser's surround. The point is those formats work with stereo. Real surround stuff actually works. But taking a game and then hitting the 7.1 button on your headphones or using Razer surround is trash, that makes imaging far worse in my opinion, because it's not possible, that's just not how sound works. I've even tried Atmos, works amazingly with the proper speakers, but I didn't think it did much with headphones.

They all work on the same principle. Virtual surround 7.1 converts 7.1 to binaural. They model the hrtf of some type of head shaped thing with 2 microphones at 7 angles, and this gives you the data you need to do it. 

 

When using virtual 7.1 for headphones, you have to make sure that windows is set to 7.1, so the audio doesn't get downmixed, and the dsp actually has 7.1 audio as input. That might be what is affecting the quality for people who are pressing the button and not getting an improvement. The other thing is that it might require listener training, which'll happen over the course of using it for a while.

[Majinhoju]

I wish I still had the adapter (my cat chewed through the cable) but I did have a Sennheiser surround sound adapter that my Bro-in-law lent me to try out a few years ago.  When plugged in, Windows would allow me to select 5.1, 7.1 etc.. so in theory this thing should have provided fairly accurate surround sound as Windows outputting 7.1 physical channels and adapter would have done the work to mix it together.  I Imagine this sort of virtual surround would be more accurate than the 7.1 button my Cloud 2 headset.

[Max_Settings]

2 hours ago, pas008 said:

thats where algorithms come into play

whole different game becomes about preference

 

yes they can hurt a great recorded sound

just like virtual cores can make you lose performance in games

 

 

Virtual cores? As in hyperthreadding? They don’t hurt performance in games what are you talking about.

[Max_Settings]

2 hours ago, an actual squirrel said:

You can't do elevation reliably with 7.1 audio, that's one of the limtations compared to 3d formats like atmos. To be clear, to get elevation, you need it to exist on the source, with a format like atmos, and you also need an hrtf that supports height channels. Normally, with 7.1 virtual surround, you have only 7 angles in the same plane.

 

They all work on the same principle. Virtual surround 7.1 converts 7.1 to binaural. They model the hrtf of some type of head shaped thing with 2 microphones at 7 angles, and this gives you the data you need to do it. 

 

When using virtual 7.1 for headphones, you have to make sure that windows is set to 7.1, so the audio doesn't get downmixed, and the dsp actually has 7.1 audio as input. That might be what is affecting the quality for people who are pressing the button and not getting an improvement. The other thing is that it might require listener training, which'll happen over the course of using it for a while.

But games don’t use 7.1 audio. So you are taking a stereo signal and converting it to 7.1, then playing it back through stereo. That massively hurts the quality and imaging.

[Majinhoju]

There is a good chunk of games that do support physical 7.1 (sadly many that only support 5.1 as well)

http://satsun.org/audio/

 

I imagine these games would down mix properly assuming the device is seen as a 7.1 device by Windows?

[Dackzy]

I don't think that it is a secret that I absolutely hate virtual surround sound, it makes everything sound like pure ass to my ears, even that $200+ sennheiser combo with it build in sounds like ass when you turn on virtual surround sound (not that it is that good of a DAC and amp anyways), it always sounds artificial AF. I have always prefered good old stereo.

 

I have personally never had a problem telling were sounds are coming from in games. 

It might help some people though, but for me it will always be stereo over virtual surround sound, especially if my headphones have a wide soundstage and good imaging.

 

I think where this kind of statement "7.1 surround sound in headphones is it bullshit marketing and stereo better for fps" comes from is when you look at the gaming headsets with virtual surround sound vs similar priced normal headphones, because you will often see a big quality difference between these two. Like the headphones would be able to reproduce more detail than the gaming headset, which would lead you to hear things that you wouldn't be able to hear with the headset.

[an actual squirrel]

45 minutes ago, Max_Settings said:

But games don’t use 7.1 audio. So you are taking a stereo signal and converting it to 7.1, then playing it back through stereo. That massively hurts the quality and imaging.

A lot do, you can check what applications output by creating a virtual 7.1 sound card and looking at what's being sent to it. The whole point of this is to use the distinct front and rear angles to eliminate ambiguity between the front and its mirror image in the rear more reliably, as this has consequences for gaming. So giving the dsp stereo to work with would defeat the purpose.

 

In response to another comment, this is all dsp based, so the headphone manufacturers don't have to do anything different. This about making sure this dsp is in the audio chain at some level.

[Max_Settings]

8 minutes ago, an actual squirrel said:

A lot do, you can check what applications output by creating a virtual 7.1 sound card and looking at what's being sent to it. The whole point of this is to use the distinct front and rear angles to eliminate ambiguity between the front and it's mirror image in the rear more reliably, as this has consequences for gaming. So it would be bad to use stereo as input into the dsp.

 

In response to another comment, this is all dsp based, so the headphone manufacturers don't have to do anything different. This about making sure this dsp is in the audio chain at some level.

Headphone manufacturers do do something different if we are talking about a USB headset or a wireless one with 7.1. The DAC chip that the headphone uses will be in the headphones and so will the DSP that creates the 7.1. And I still can't disagree more. Virtual surround just destroys imaging especially when it comes to front and back.

[Max_Settings]

And I still stand by what I said. Don't you find it odd that the only companies that use virtual surround are gaming companies? Almost as if they were using it to charge you more? If this technology worked actual audio companies would use it.

[pas008]

53 minutes ago, Max_Settings said:

Virtual cores? As in hyperthreadding? They don’t hurt performance in games what are you talking about.

oh wow, where were you in 2500k vs 2600k days up until recently when ht started to actually help then hurt

do I seriously need to pull up old sandy bridge to pretty much haswell to show you games suffering from ht?

 

and for you haters on virtual surround you are right to your opinion but I think great well sbx for me

 

[pas008]

2 minutes ago, Max_Settings said:

And I still stand by what I said. Don't you find it odd that the only companies that use virtual surround are gaming companies? Almost as if they were using it to charge you more? If this technology worked actual audio companies would use it.

they do use in in receivers lol

 

almost all receivers have surround algorithms and they have individual speakers

[Max_Settings]

Just now, pas008 said:

oh wow, where were you in 2500k vs 2600k days up until recently when ht started to actually help then hurt

do I seriously need to pull up old sandy bridge to pretty much haswell to show you games suffering from ht?

 

and for you haters on virtual surround you are right to your opinion but I think great well sbx for me

 

Once again faulty logic, we aren't there anymore. We are talking about the current state of these algorithms.

[Max_Settings]

1 minute ago, pas008 said:

they do use in in receivers lol

 

almost all receivers have surround algorithms and they have individual speakers

But that's with speakers, there it actually works if you have the proper number of channels. We are strictly talking about headphones.