Posted August 4, 2017 9 hours ago, suicidalfranco said: do you mean people who pay for said energy every single cent and don't simply cut wires in the middle of the street and tape their stolen gpus to it for unlimited free energy? Again: if they can pay for it i don't see where's the issue, if you can't get them because you decided to wait for some huge sale event just to save a few buck, sucks to be you, first come first served, don't want to wait? pre-order. Not satisfied with your pre-order after it's release? return it. should we also hate on people who buy Windows for just gaming and not for work purposes as MS advertises it? right, having corporations dictate what you can and can't do with a product you paid for would be so much better for everyone. Are you even serious? Trump in disguise 9 hours ago, Captain Chaos said: True, crypto currencies are only worth something because people agree on their value. But so is "real" money. You know, the kind of money that can be faked and is regulated by a central authority and banks who caused several depressions that made people lose their jobs and/or homes (or worse). As for the amount of electricity used by miners worldwide, that wouldn't be a problem in developed countries where the vast majority of electricity comes from renewable sources or nuclear power. Of course you always have some backwards countries that are still stuck in the 19th century and rely on coal. Real currencies are regulated by banks and follow the rules of the economy, this makes them much more stable than cryptocurrencies. Where do you live? Most of the world's power still comes from fossil fuels, only a few countries have a high percentage of non-fossil fuel generated power. 7 minutes ago, rhyseyness said: So I've read about 4 pages of this thread. Not sure why everyone is so against this. People buying TONNEs of these cards is great for AMD. They need the money pretty bad. It's only a small percentage of us who were actually going to go out and buy one straight away anyway. Furthermore, if these are amazing for mining, suddenly there's gonna be alot of RX580s cheap af on ebay. THEN when the cryptocurrencies crash, cheap vegas. I'm not seeing a downside here. AMD get money, we get cheap used cards for now and cheap used cards in the future... what is possibly bad about this? Also, lol at all the people saying "Why are you doing this AMD?" If I was them I'd be making these cards even more mining oriented. Miners are not "actual customers", there's no fidelization and they do not increase effective market share in this segment, since they're not gaming. The more AMD cards are sold to people who use it for their intended use, the more developers are going to optimize or even create games on that platform. It's mostly for image and marketing purpose, which is a lot for a company. After mining crazes fade away, the used market gets flooded with cards in poor conditions, thus impacting negatively on the brand's reputation On a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 9 minutes ago, Agost said: Are you even serious? Why wouldn't he? He's 100% spot on. 9 minutes ago, Agost said: Miners are not "actual customers", Of course they are. They are people who buy a product. Hence, customers. 9 minutes ago, Agost said: there's no fidelization Not needed to be a customer. 9 minutes ago, Agost said: and they do not increase effective market share in this segment, Irrelevant. They increase market share in all segments combined. They increase sales. Simple as that. 9 minutes ago, Agost said: since they're not gaming. The more AMD cards are sold to people who use it for their intended use, Intended use? Hardware is hardware. Next thing you know, we'll have threads complaining about those greedy servers buying out and increasing the price of all those ridiculously high end CPUs we poor gamers want. I'm surprised how little people like free markets in this forum, being North-America-based and all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 4 minutes ago, Agost said: Are you even serious? Trump in disguise Real currencies are regulated by banks and follow the rules of the economy, this makes them much more stable than cryptocurrencies. Where do you live? Most of the world's power still comes from fossil fuels, only a few countries have a high percentage of non-fossil fuel generated power. Miners are not "actual customers", there's no fidelization and they do not increase effective market share in this segment, since they're not gaming. The more AMD cards are sold to people who use it for their intended use, the more developers are going to optimize or even create games on that platform. It's mostly for image and marketing purpose, which is a lot for a company. After mining crazes fade away, the used market gets flooded with cards in poor conditions, thus impacting negatively on the brand's reputation cryptocurrencies still follow economy rules, when you say regulated you mean manipulated right, because thats what they do. about power it really depends on where you live, most south africa (not the country) is hydro powered, it seems most Europe have between 10-20% renewable, but Portugal has 20-30% , so for Europe you are right, i guess the Us is probably worse, never mind india and china, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 3 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said: Why wouldn't he? He's 100% spot on. Of course they are. They are people who buy a product. Hence, customers. Not needed to be a customer. Irrelevant. They increase market share in all segments combined. They increase sales. Simple as that. Intended use? Hardware is hardware. Next thing you know, we'll have threads complaining about those greedy servers buying out and increasing the price of all those ridiculously high end CPUs we poor gamers want. I'm surprised how little people like free markets in this forum, being North-America-based and all. the only problem for amd is that they have a small market share in the gaming world, and they need to improve it so that they have more bargaining power over devs, for them to take time to optimize for their hardware Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 1 minute ago, cj09beira said: amd is that they have a small market share in the gaming world Both Xbox and PS4 use AMD hardware. AMD decided to grow from console peasantry and appear on Glorious tables? Sorry for bad Ingrish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 6 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said: Why wouldn't he? He's 100% spot on. Of course they are. They are people who buy a product. Hence, customers. Not needed to be a customer. Irrelevant. They increase market share in all segments combined. They increase sales. Simple as that. Intended use? Hardware is hardware. Next thing you know, we'll have threads complaining about those greedy servers buying out and increasing the price of all those ridiculously high end CPUs we poor gamers want. I'm surprised how little people like free markets in this forum, being North-America-based and all. Those are clearly gaming cards, just like Quadros and bitcoin ASICs are not. Same for server CPUs, nobody buys xeons for gaming. That's not free market, that's a bunch of guys buying out thousands of card before they even reach the market. I'm not against those who buy 1-2 cards and use it for gaming, productivity and mining while idle, I'm against those big (mostly Chinese) cryptocurrency factories with thousands of cards which will die mining On a mote of dust, suspended in a sunbeam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 1 minute ago, Denis Rakhmanov said: Both Xbox and PS4 use AMD hardware. AMD decided to grow from console peasantry and appear on Glorious tables? yes they have the console market, but that market is high volume very low profit per chip, amd wants to improve their market in the gpu, pc market Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 19 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said: Why wouldn't he? He's 100% spot on. .................. , being North-America-based and all. I think what he means is that miners are no long-term customers. While they buy this generation of cards, they might not buy the next one (if it's not a good product for this specific use case), while a typical gamer would consider buying the next gen of GPUs (if they are just slightly better of course). Miners don't develop a brand affiliation, since even they don't know for sure if their business is still a viable thing next year. While AMD would gain marked share now, they could lose is in just a couple of months (provided coin-mining is no longer profitable). On the other side, a lot of people are mad, because they won’t get THEIR Vega GPU any time soon. If Vega64 is good for mining, you can be sure that they won’t be long in stock. If you don’t buy them day-one, you could wait 4 – 8 weeks… So the generic consumer might switch to nvidia after all, which is not good for amd. Just selling cards isn't good enough. If you find any grammar or spelling errors please fill out entry permit A38, thanks. Greetings from germany Profilepicture by Chibiterasu-chan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 38 minutes ago, Agost said: Miners are not "actual customers", there's no fidelization and they do not increase effective market share in this segment, since they're not gaming. The more AMD cards are sold to people who use it for their intended use, the more developers are going to optimize or even create games on that platform. It's mostly for image and marketing purpose, which is a lot for a company. After mining crazes fade away, the used market gets flooded with cards in poor conditions, thus impacting negatively on the brand's reputation More sales=more cards in circulation/manufactured=more gamers using them=more optimisations. Imo, mining is no worse than running a decent overclock all the time for card life/reliability. I do see your point though, I just think the positives outweigh the negatives. My DIY Speaker Build Log My Graphic Equaliser Build Log Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 I wonder how AMDs stock volume of cards w hold up though, they did said they wanted to have many of them, hence the delay. | Ryzen 7 7800X3D | AM5 B650 Aorus Elite AX | G.Skill Trident Z5 Neo RGB DDR5 32GB 6000MHz C30 | Sapphire PULSE Radeon RX 7900 XTX | Samsung 990 PRO 1TB with heatsink | Arctic Liquid Freezer II 360 | Seasonic Focus GX-850 | Lian Li Lanccool III | Mousepad: Skypad 3.0 XL / Zowie GTF-X | Mouse: Zowie S1-C | Keyboard: Ducky One 3 TKL (Cherry MX-Speed-Silver) | Beyerdynamic MMX 300 (2nd Gen) | Acer XV272U | OS: Windows 11 | Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 57 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said: I wonder how AMDs stock volume of cards w hold up though, they did said they wanted to have many of them, hence the delay. not enough of them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 3 hours ago, Agost said: That's not free market, that's a bunch of guys buying out thousands of card before they even reach the market. I'm not against those who buy 1-2 cards and use it for gaming, productivity and mining while idle, I'm against those big (mostly Chinese) cryptocurrency factories with thousands of cards which will die mining Blame the distributors, and to a further extend the manufacturer (i.e. msi, asus...). It is the distributors' job to spread the stock proportionally to retailers. Basically they're failing at their job if they sell cards to miners in large batch for quick buck. And manufacturers, who have the freedom to choose distributors, are responsible to prevent this from happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 15 hours ago, Zando Bob said: I'm from the US. And yeah, there's not really a way to stop people, without some stupid hardware DRM feature that makes it terrible for mining. But that'd just be a pain, os we'll have to hope miners tart being polite and not gobbling up every GPU in sight. Aren't there companies in China based on that? If so, don't expect them to politely leave others gpus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 4 hours ago, rhyseyness said: So I've read about 4 pages of this thread. Not sure why everyone is so against this. People buying TONNEs of these cards is great for AMD. They need the money pretty bad. It's only a small percentage of us who were actually going to go out and buy one straight away anyway. Furthermore, if these are amazing for mining, suddenly there's gonna be alot of RX580s cheap af on ebay. THEN when the cryptocurrencies crash, cheap vegas. I'm not seeing a downside here. AMD get money, we get cheap used cards for now and cheap used cards in the future... what is possibly bad about this? Also, lol at all the people saying "Why are you doing this AMD?" If I was them I'd be making these cards even more mining oriented. Miners RMA cards at a higher rate, AMD doesn't want their business and neither do retailers, hence the restrictions from most places on buying a whole bunch of cards at once, and AMD putting out discounts if you buy their card along with a monitor and CPU. You say there are no disadvantages, you seem to have not noticed how inflated GPU prices are right now, and the fact you can't even find most AMD cards on 1060's in stock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 44 minutes ago, Cookybiscuit said: Miners RMA cards at a higher rate, AMD doesn't want their business and neither do retailers, hence the restrictions from most places on buying a whole bunch of cards at once, and AMD putting out discounts if you buy their card along with a monitor and CPU. You say there are no disadvantages, you seem to have not noticed how inflated GPU prices are right now, and the fact you can't even find most AMD cards on 1060's in stock. I understand, but like I said, I think the benefits outweigh the negatives. When Vega drops, the price of used last gen cards will drop like a stone as all the miners upgrade. There's very few people who buy brand new cards as soon as they're released (as a percentage of market share). My DIY Speaker Build Log My Graphic Equaliser Build Log Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 8 minutes ago, rhyseyness said: I understand, but like I said, I think the benefits outweigh the negatives. When Vega drops, the price of used last gen cards will drop like a stone as all the miners upgrade. There's very few people who buy brand new cards as soon as they're released (as a percentage of market share). The prices of the used market scale with the prices of the new market. It's the reason the people who bought an R9290 two years ago can sell them used right now in 2017 for a profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 1 minute ago, Cookybiscuit said: The prices of the used market scale with the prices of the new market. It's the reason the people who bought an R9290 two years ago can sell them used right now in 2017 for a profit. The launch price of that card was $400. They now sell for $250... $300 max. My DIY Speaker Build Log My Graphic Equaliser Build Log Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 10 minutes ago, rhyseyness said: The launch price of that card was $400. They now sell for $250... $300 max. Just checked my Amazon history, bought mine for 206 in January 2015, sold it two months ago for 200, if I was patient I could have got more and people consistently do on eBay. Inflation and the exchange rate is of course a factor, but to suggest the prices of older GPU's is dropping like a stone is complete nonsense. A 7970 is a six year old card at this point and still fetch decent prices on the used market, they should be worthless by your evaluation. GPU mining has ruined the market. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 Any doubt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 39 minutes ago, rhyseyness said: I understand, but like I said, I think the benefits outweigh the negatives. When Vega drops, the price of used last gen cards will drop like a stone as all the miners upgrade. There's very few people who buy brand new cards as soon as they're released (as a percentage of market share). miners wont upgrade, they will keep the old ones, and add new vega cards to the mix, so the prices of 580's will remain the same Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 37 minutes ago, Cookybiscuit said: Just checked my Amazon history, bought mine for 206 in January 2015, sold it two months ago for 200, if I was patient I could have got more and people consistently do on eBay. Inflation and the exchange rate is of course a factor, but to suggest the prices of older GPU's is dropping like a stone is complete nonsense. A 7970 is a six year old card at this point and still fetch decent prices on the used market, they should be worthless by your evaluation. GPU mining has ruined the market. It launched in 2013 so you bought 2 years after... enough time for a new generation. The price had halved from launch. 21 minutes ago, cj09beira said: miners wont upgrade, they will keep the old ones, and add new vega cards to the mix, so the prices of 580's will remain the same Doesn't make more sense for a miner to sell all the used cards and replace with as many new ones as they can afford? Especially if the new cards are going to be as good at mining as this thread suggests. My DIY Speaker Build Log My Graphic Equaliser Build Log Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 1 minute ago, rhyseyness said: It launched in 2013 so you bought 2 years after... enough time for a new generation. The price had halved from launch. Doesn't make more sense for a miner to sell all the used cards and replace with as many new ones as they can afford? Especially if the new cards are going to be as good at mining as this thread suggests. why replace them when those can keep generating money, even if at a lower rate, only situation where they would replace them would be if they fail or no longer profitable, and most cards still are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 6 minutes ago, cj09beira said: why replace them when those can keep generating money, even if at a lower rate, only situation where they would replace them would be if they fail or no longer profitable, and most cards still are I'm arguing that if the new cards are this good, they'll be far more profitable than the old ones, to the point where it makes more sense to sell all the old ones and replace with the new ones. Ya know, if the new cards hash rate is 2x better than the old at the same power draw, then it makes more sense to sell all the old cards and use that money to buy new ones. Why generate $10 a day with a card when you could sell that and replace it with something that makes $20 a day? If you're doing this on an industrial scale, you either run out of money, space or power headroom to keep all the old cards running, even if you can afford new ones; at which point you're forced to sell. My DIY Speaker Build Log My Graphic Equaliser Build Log Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 6 minutes ago, rhyseyness said: I'm arguing that if the new cards are this good, they'll be far more profitable than the old ones, to the point where it makes more sense to sell all the old ones and replace with the new ones. Ya know, if the new cards hash rate is 2x better than the old at the same power draw, then it makes more sense to sell all the old cards and use that money to buy new ones. Why generate $10 a day with a card when you could sell that and replace it with something that makes $20 a day? If you're doing this on an industrial scale, you either run out of money, space or power headroom to keep all the old cards running, even if you can afford new ones; at which point you're forced to sell. i see your point now, in big scale it might be better yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Posted August 4, 2017 16 minutes ago, rhyseyness said: It launched in 2013 so you bought 2 years after... enough time for a new generation. The price had halved from launch. Doesn't make more sense for a miner to sell all the used cards and replace with as many new ones as they can afford? Especially if the new cards are going to be as good at mining as this thread suggests. So tell me why didn't the prices of 200 series drop like a stone when AMD launched the 400 and 500 series? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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