Microsoft further cracks down on Kaby Lake and Ryzen usage on Windows 7 and 8.1

[Dabombinable]

42 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You can take all the issues people are posting here about 10 and apply them legitimately to every other OS or piece of software.   I think people just love being the victim.

 

So all other OS automatically install the following during setup regardless if its a standard consumer, prosumer or business version?:

• Candy Crush Soda Saga (microtransactions)
• Caesar Slots (real money needed to play)
• Netflix (reuires subscription)
• Facebook (well known to disregard user privacy with always on tracking cookies)
• Twitter/Twatter
• Skype
• Xbox/Xbox Live related stuff (useless for anyone without the underpowered Xbone or Xbone S)

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

So all other OS automatically install the following during setup regardless if its a standard consumer, prosumer or business version?:

• Candy Crush Soda Saga (microtransactions)
• Caesar Slots (real money needed to play)
• Netflix (reuires subscription)
• Facebook (well known to disregard user privacy with always on tracking cookies)
• Twitter/Twatter
• Skype
• Xbox/Xbox Live related stuff (useless for anyone without the underpowered Xbone or Xbone S)

 

They never installed automatically on mine, nor anyone I know.  I have installed the retail pack, the oem and the upgrade. 

[Dabombinable]

Just now, mr moose said:

 

They never installed automatically on mine, nor anyone I know.  I have installed the retail pack, the oem and the upgrade. 

So far they've automatically installed on the following:

• brand new HP laptop bought for my brother to use at highschool (Windows 10 Home pre-installed)
• HP Pavilion DV6 3010AX (Phenom II N970 upgrade, Windows 10 Pro upgraded from Windows 7 Pro)
• HP Elitebook 2760P (Windows 10 Pro upgraded from Windows 7 Pro)
• HP Touchsmart TM2 (i5 470UM, Windows 10 Pro upgraded from Windows 7 Pro)
• Asus U38N (initially Windows 10 Pro after updating from Windows 8.1 to 10, then Windows 10 Home after a fresh re-install using inbuilt key)
• Toshiba Tecra M5 (Windows 10 Pro frsh install, later died)
• Asus A3H (upgraded to Pentium M770, Windows 10 Home fresh install)
• This desktop based around the Z97 Sabertooth MKII (Windows 10 Pro update from Windows 7 Pro)
• The desktop I built for my friend built for my friend based around the Asus H87M Pro (Windows 10 Home, later reverted back to Windows 7 Home)
• The desktop I built for my brother (based around the Asus P5Q Deluxe, Windows 10 Pro fresh install)

The apps are automatically installed. I've worked on Windows 10 over enough computers to be certain.

[mr moose]

Just now, Dabombinable said:

So far they've automatically installed on the following:

• brand new HP laptop bought for my brother to use at highschool (Windows 10 Home pre-installed)
• HP Pavilion DV6 3010AX (Phenom II N970 upgrade, Windows 10 Pro upgraded from Windows 7 Pro)
• HP Elitebook 2760P (Windows 10 Pro upgraded from Windows 7 Pro)
• HP Touchsmart TM2 (i5 470UM, Windows 10 Pro upgraded from Windows 7 Pro)
• Asus U38N (initially Windows 10 Pro after updating from Windows 8.1 to 10, then Windows 10 Home after a fresh re-install using inbuilt key)
• Toshiba Tecra M5 (Windows 10 Pro frsh install, later died)
• Asus A3H (upgraded to Pentium M770, Windows 10 Home fresh install)
• This desktop based around the Z97 Sabertooth MKII (Windows 10 Pro update from Windows 7 Pro)
• The desktop I built for my friend built for my friend based around the Asus H87M Pro (Windows 10 Home, later reverted back to Windows 7 Home)
• The desktop I built for my brother (based around the Asus P5Q Deluxe, Windows 10 Pro fresh install)

The apps are automatically installed. I've worked on Windows 10 over enough computers to be certain.

I'm not saying they didn't for you or for anyone else,  I am saying for certain they did not install  for me, I bought a brand new retail version and it did not contain any of those, neither did my upgrade nor the OEM.   It's easy to see that HP have put them on as part of their bloatware package (they are renowned for doing that). 

 

All I am saying is we can't take the absolute worst experiences of everyone (in this thread that is like 5 people) and insinuate that all installs of 10 will be like that.  It's an erroneous claim.  Of course there are going to be people who experience bloatware and telemetry issues.  But not everyone.

[Dabombinable]

Just now, mr moose said:

I'm not saying they didn't for you or for anyone else,  I am saying for certain they did not install  for me, I bought a brand new retail version and it did not contain any of those, neither did my upgrade nor the OEM.   It's easy to see that HP have put them on as part of their bloatware package (they are renowned for doing that). 

 

All I am saying is we can't take the absolute worst experiences of everyone (in this thread that is like 5 people) and insinuate that all installs of 10 will be like that.  It's an erroneous claim.  Of course there are going to be people who experience bloatware and telemetry issues.  But not everyone.

It wasn't part of the HP bloatware. I was using a freshly created USB stick with (at the time) the Anniversary update. My desktop recently through the media creation tool did a straight-from-within-Windows update to Windows 10 Pro Creators update. Its definitely MS doing it. Try it yourself on a Windows 7 machine using the media creation tool to start the update if you have the time+internet quota to spare.

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, Dabombinable said:

It wasn't part of the HP bloatware. I was using a freshly created USB stick with (at the time) the Anniversary update. My desktop recently through the media creation tool did a straight-from-within-Windows update to Windows 10 Pro Creators update. Its definitely MS doing it. Try it yourself on a Windows 7 machine using the media creation tool to start the update if you have the time+internet quota to spare.

 

That's how I upgrade my 7 to 10.  I have also done the upgrade within windows from both 8.1 and 7 (the 8.1 was a retail cd) on other pc's and got nothing.

 

Maybe it's a geographic thing.  There are laws in some countries about inclusions.  Other than that it would be just speculation on my part as to why.  And to be honest I am not going to sit here and pontificate the virtues of something becasue my experience is good,  All I ask is that people consider the reverse as well.  The reason I even started on this topic again (I was ready to let it die) was becasue one guy was trying to insinuate that win 10 was the worst supported even though he hadn't actually experienced any issues yet.  What sort of claim is that for a community that is supposed to be helpful?  I am just trying to keep is factual and not emotionally driven.

 

 

 

 

 

[79wjd]

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Maybe it's a geographic thing.  There are laws in some countries about inclusions. 

I'm sure there's no restrictions on inclusions in the US and I didn't get any bloat (other than Microsoft stuff -- like xbox/skype) when I did any of my fresh installs.

[Dabombinable]

23 minutes ago, mr moose said:

 

That's how I upgrade my 7 to 10.  I have also done the upgrade within windows from both 8.1 and 7 (the 8.1 was a retail cd) on other pc's and got nothing.

 

Maybe it's a geographic thing.  There are laws in some countries about inclusions.  Other than that it would be just speculation on my part as to why.  And to be honest I am not going to sit here and pontificate the virtues of something becasue my experience is good,  All I ask is that people consider the reverse as well.  The reason I even started on this topic again (I was ready to let it die) was becasue one guy was trying to insinuate that win 10 was the worst supported even though he hadn't actually experienced any issues yet.  What sort of claim is that for a community that is supposed to be helpful?  I am just trying to keep is factual and not emotionally driven.

 

 

 

 

 

 I'm in Australia....

[mr moose]

 

1 minute ago, Dabombinable said:

 I'm in Australia....

Ditto.  I got the OEM and the retail from MSY

[Dabombinable]

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

 

Ditto.  I got the OEM and the retail from MSY

I've just been using the version directly from Microsoft-obviously the OEM editions are stripped of the BS partially.

[Delicieuxz]

2 hours ago, Commodus said:

Here's the thing, though: if you install Windows 10 and agree to its data sharing policy, then that data isn't being stolen.  You can rightly argue that Microsoft might not be as clear as it can (it has been taking steps to increase transparency), but not that it's taking those things behind your back.  I'm not trying to give Microsoft a free pass -- if you don't like its data collection after all that, it's fine.  But your initial observation is, frankly, a Chicken Little statement.  By making exaggerated it's-the-end-of-the-world claims, you hurt your chances at addressing very real problems when they come up.

I don't agree to Microsoft data-collection, and as Microsoft's collection of data is not a necessary part of the functionality I use in the OS, a Win 10 clause claiming permission to collect my data therefore does not pass the reasonable person test, and is not a binding part of Microsoft's terms.

 

Additionally, Microsoft is doing everything they can to prevent people from continuing to use alternative software, such as Windows 7 and 8, and therefore people are being effectively forced into using Windows 10, which, in a legal environment, weakens any argument that says if a person uses Windows 10, then it's by choice and they have agreed to the included terms.

 

Quote

As for pointing to where someone has argued that Microsoft is obligated to ensure compatibility... you did.  You claim that Microsoft cut off hardware support "out of uncontrolled greed and complete disregard for Windows owners."  You may not have literally argued that Microsoft was required to support you, but you acted as if Microsoft was abandoning some overwhelming responsibility.  Say the cut-off sucks; don't contend that Microsoft must support the hardware you want on the OS you want if it's going to show any concern for users.  There's a middle ground where it can care, but decide that it has to start steering users toward a newer OS for the sake of both its bottom line and getting everyone on the same code base.

There is difference between support, doing nothing, and opposing.

 

- 'Supporting' is an active behaviour, meaning to provide effort to keep a product functioning. Simply letting things be is not the same thing as supporting.

- 'Not supporting' is an inactive behaviour, and is the state of simply not doing the active behaviour that is 'supporting'. It is the state of leaving things as they are, without further effort to ensure compatibility.

- Opposing, attacking, undermining, and sabotaging existing compatibility an active behaviour against a product and its users is neither 'supporting', or 'not supporting', and is what Microsoft has been doing towards Windows 7 and 8, and owners of those products.

 

Not supporting simply and literally means 'to not do the active behaviour that is supporting'. There is absolutely nothing about opposing Windows 7 or 8 functionality and compatibility with newer CPUs that is explained, rationalized, or excused by Microsoft saying they would not support Windows 7 and 8 for newer CPUs. 

 

I have not argued for Microsoft to continue support of Windows 7 and 8, but I have argued against Microsoft opposing, undermining, and sabotaging existing working compatibility. If Microsoft simply did not continue support for Windows 7, it would continue to have full functionality for newer CPUs. What Microsoft is doing is not ethical, and I believe it would be found to be illegal in Western courts.

[Jito463]

7 hours ago, Delicieuxz said:

If it is mine (and it is), and I haven't authorized and am not OK with it being taken or used (and I haven't and am not), and yet it's taken and used (it is), then it's being stolen. No hyperbole, you're just a frog that's accustomed to the hot water and couldn't give a damn about it.

 

Point to where someone has argued that Microsoft is obligated to ensure compatibility, because I haven't seen anybody make that argument. Nobody is asking Microsoft to lift a finger to cater to newer CPUs. What they're opposed to is Microsoft making efforts to sabotage OS compatibility with newer CPUs.

 

What you've done is make a straw-man argument, reframing the issue into something that it is not, so that you can make it sound as if Microsoft's sabotage and prevention of newer CPU compatibility is somehow justified, and that those who are not submitting to Microsoft's hostile practices are unjustified. The premise of that argument is a fiction.

Except that MS hasn't sabotaged compatibility.  You can still run Windows 7 or 8/8.1 on Ryzen or Kaby Lake, you just won't get any updates.  No one is preventing you from running it, MS just won't support it.

 

*EDIT*
I agree that it's a crappy thing to do, and I don't agree with the policy, I'm just pointing out that you are arguing for MS to ensure compatibility, by wanting them to allow future updates after they explicitly said that they would not be doing so as far back as January 2016.

5 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

They never installed automatically on mine, nor anyone I know.  I have installed the retail pack, the oem and the upgrade. 

I've installed it dozens of times at work, as a clean install from the USB drive I personally created using the Media Creation Tool.  It always installs crapware like Copyright Crush and the like, without fail, unless I unpin the tile from the Start Menu first.  Even then it may still install, I'm not entirely sure on that part.

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, Delicieuxz said:

I don't agree to Microsoft data-collection, and as Microsoft's collection of data is not a necessary part of the functionality I use in the OS, a Win 10 clause claiming permission to collect my data therefore does not pass the reasonable person test, and is not a binding part of Microsoft's terms.

 

Additionally, Microsoft is doing everything they can to prevent people from continuing to use alternative software, such as Windows 7 and 8, and therefore people are being effectively forced into using Windows 10, which, in a legal environment, weakens any argument that says if a person uses Windows 10, then it's by choice and they have agreed to the included terms.

 

There is difference between support, doing nothing, and opposing.

 

- 'Supporting' is an active behaviour, meaning to provide effort to keep a product functioning. Simply letting things be is not the same thing as supporting.

- 'Not supporting' is an inactive behaviour, and is the state of simply not doing the active behaviour that is 'supporting'. It is the state of leaving things as they are, without further effort to ensure compatibility.

- Opposing, attacking, undermining, and sabotaging existing compatibility an active behaviour against a product and its users is neither 'supporting', or 'not supporting', and is what Microsoft has been doing towards Windows 7 and 8, and owners of those products.

 

Not supporting simply and literally means 'to not do the active behaviour that is supporting'. There is absolutely nothing about opposing Windows 7 or 8 functionality and compatibility with newer CPUs that is explained, rationalized, or excused by Microsoft saying they would not support Windows 7 and 8 for newer CPUs. 

 

I have not argued for Microsoft to continue support of Windows 7 and 8, but I have argued against Microsoft opposing, undermining, and sabotaging existing working compatibility. If Microsoft simply did not continue support for Windows 7, it would continue to have full functionality for newer CPUs. What Microsoft is doing is not ethical, and I believe it would be found to be illegal in Western courts.

sounds like it's time you find another hobby, companies not supporting old products is only going become more prevalent.

1 minute ago, Jito463 said:

Except that MS hasn't sabotaged compatibility.  You can still run Windows 7 or 8/8.1 on Ryzen or Kaby Lake, you just won't get any updates.  No one is preventing you from running it, MS just won't support it.

I've installed it dozens of times at work, as a clean install from the USB drive I personally created using the Media Creation Tool.  It always installs crapware like Copyright Crush and the like, without fail, unless I unpin the tile from the Start Menu first.  Even then it may still install, I'm not entirely sure on that part.

Yeah, I don't know why it happens for some and not others.   If people kick up enough of a stink maybe they'll stop like AMD did with their shortcut install.  

[Jito463]

It strikes me that a middle ground could be reached, assuming MS even wanted to (which is highly unlikely).  MS could force a message before any updates are installed, that compatibility is not guaranteed and you install these updates at your own risk.  Maybe make it like the Win10 messages that kind of take over your screen.  Perhaps with a way to disable that message through GPEdit or the Registry, for those who understand the risks and just want to skip the message entirely.

[ARikozuM]

8 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

It strikes me that a middle ground could be reached, assuming MS even wanted to (which is highly unlikely).  MS could force a message before any updates are installed, that compatibility is not guaranteed and you install these updates at your own risk.  Maybe make it like the Win10 messages that kind of take over your screen.  Perhaps with a way to disable that message through GPEdit or the Registry, for those who understand the risks and just want to skip the message entirely.

People will still b#tch nonetheless, though this would be a good way to do so.

[mr moose]

4 hours ago, Dabombinable said:

I've just been using the version directly from Microsoft-obviously the OEM editions are stripped of the BS partially.

 

18 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

Except that MS hasn't sabotaged compatibility.  You can still run Windows 7 or 8/8.1 on Ryzen or Kaby Lake, you just won't get any updates.  No one is preventing you from running it, MS just won't support it.

 

*EDIT*
I agree that it's a crappy thing to do, and I don't agree with the policy, I'm just pointing out that you are arguing for MS to ensure compatibility, by wanting them to allow future updates after they explicitly said that they would not be doing so as far back as January 2016.

I've installed it dozens of times at work, as a clean install from the USB drive I personally created using the Media Creation Tool.  It always installs crapware like Copyright Crush and the like, without fail, unless I unpin the tile from the Start Menu first.  Even then it may still install, I'm not entirely sure on that part.

 

I just checked, and there are news articles from almost exactly 2 years ago saying how win 10 was going to ship with candy crush, like it does with minesweep, solitaire etc.  Either they think they are being nice giving people free games again (even though some require in app purchases), or it's another money making thing where they get paid a few cents per install like bloatware on HP, acer, etc.

 

Either way, this is the price we pay when there is only one tangible OS on the market for pc manufacturers and business.

[TheCherryKing]

I wonder if Microsoft considers Intel Xeon processors as Intel Core processors. The paragraph below has been taken from the Microsoft support page.

Resolution

We recommend that you upgrade Windows Server 2012 R2-based and Windows Server 2008 R2-based computers to Windows Server 2016, and Windows 8.1-based and Window 7-based computers to Windows 10 if those computers have a processor that is from any of the following generations:

• Intel seventh (7th)-generation "Intel Core" processor or a later generation
• AMD seventh (7th)-generation (“Bristol Ridge") processor or a later generation
• Qualcomm “8996" processor or a later generation

[LAwLz]

8 hours ago, mr moose said:

How?  Can you show me an instance where one of the problems people are complaining about in 10 has not appeared in another OS?

Don't move the goalpost now.

Yes, some of the issues with Windows 10 appears on some other OSes, but not all of them nor to the same extent in some cases.

 

You can't just go "OS X has this one issue that Windows 10 has, so therefore they are the same!" and then ignore like 20 other issues which are unique to Windows 10 (compared to OS X).

By the way, OS X does not contain anywhere near the same amount of telemetry as Windows 10, and it is completely optional. In fact, during the setup you get asked if you want to send in telemetry. And if you click no it actually respects that option. It does not go "OK, then we will turn off some of it".

 

Also, you said "every other OS or piece of software". This is an argument I have seen more and more and I honestly suspect that it is a bunch of Microsoft shills that gets paid to say it. Because it is not only false (as I have proven time and time again on this forum) but when so many users all start posting the same thing around the same time, I find it suspicious.

 

No, not all software has telemetry.

No, not all software has forced updates.

No, not all other pieces of software or OSes suffers from the same major issues as Windows 10. Some might have some of the issues, or to a lower degree, but the world is not black and white.

 

 

8 hours ago, mr moose said:

OSX has telemetry data enabled almost to the same extent as 10

This one is just flat out wrong.

Do you even know how much telemetry data (and like I have said countless of times already on this forum, telemetry is far from the only data Microsoft collects with Windows 10) that's in Windows 10?

It's an absurd amount and even Microsoft themselves has said that they think about half of it is not necessary.

 

 

8 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

They never installed automatically on mine, nor anyone I know.  I have installed the retail pack, the oem and the upgrade. 

I am tempted to call bullshit on that, because every single install I have done have had some of the programs on that list. It's touted as a feature of the Enterprise edition that it does not include things like Candy Crush.

Maybe they have changed it in recent times, but it definitely happened before. Microsoft was even boasting about it.

Quote

As an added bonus, Candy Crush Saga will automatically be installed for customers that upgrade to or download Windows 10 for periods of time following the game launch.

 

Enterprise and Education are, as far as I know, the only versions that do not come with it preinstalled.

[Nowak]

They always say your best critics are your own customers. Maybe Microsoft should look at what Valve's doing and seek feedback from their customers, and actually try to come up with solutions that'd actually address their concerns.

 

I mean, if it means that Windows 10 will actually become the best Windows ever, then sure, why not do it? It'd be a really positive experience for everyone involved.

[captain_to_fire]

9 hours ago, mr moose said:

You know as well as I do that Linux fails on hardware support,  OSX has telemetry data enabled almost to the same extent as 10, android and ios both track apps and location.  All os's come with apps that someone will consider bloatware.   All os's freeze and have issues after updates, to claim otherwise is willful ignorance.

I think almost everyone knows that Apple has telemetry implemented but they allow you to turn it off completely unlike Windows 10. Also, even with telemetry turned on on iOS and macOS, they're quite explicit where it is going to be used and no personal information (e.g. name and address) is being stamped with the telemetry data so that if a third party developer receives the data, it will be randomized [here, here and here]. Unlike Microsoft which doesn't allow you to turn off telemetry and the data collected has personal information on it.

 

Also, the actual telemetry data in iOS can be viewed directly by going to Settings>Privacy>Analytics>Analytics Data. Is there an option like that in Windows 10/Windows 10 Mobile?

Edited May 9, 2017 by hey_yo_

[Dabombinable]

2 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

 

I just checked, and there are news articles from almost exactly 2 years ago saying how win 10 was going to ship with candy crush, like it does with minesweep, solitaire etc.  Either they think they are being nice giving people free games again (even though some require in app purchases), or it's another money making thing where they get paid a few cents per install like bloatware on HP, acer, etc.

 

Either way, this is the price we pay when there is only one tangible OS on the market for pc manufacturers and business.

With the way Candy Crush Soda Saga works, and Caesar slots. Its definitely to get more money off users through gambling and micro-transactions.

[LAwLz]

2 minutes ago, Daring said:

They always say your best critics are your own customers. Maybe Microsoft should look at what Valve's doing and seek feedback from their customers, and actually try to come up with solutions that'd actually address their concerns.

 

I mean, if it means that Windows 10 will actually become the best Windows ever, then sure, why not do it? It'd be a really positive experience for everyone involved.

They did collect feedback in the beginning (during testing, and a while after release).

The problem was that they ignored a lot of it.

 

Don't ship with bloatware? Ignored.

Make it possible to turn off auto-update? Ignored.

Add transparency to the task bar, start menu and title bar? They added two of the three things asked, 

marked it as solved and then locked all other threads because they were "duplicates".

 

 

1 minute ago, Dabombinable said:

With the way Candy Crush Soda Saga works, and Caesar slots. Its definitely to get more money off users through gambling and micro-transactions.

Are you sure Caesar slots is installed by default? It has not been on any computers I have installed.

Please bear in mind that ads gets injected into your list of programs and the start menu in Windows 10. So even if Caesar slots appears on your computer, it might not be installed. You can turn that off though (which is absolutely not an excuse for the despicable behavior).

[Nowak]

Just now, LAwLz said:

They did collect feedback in the beginning (during testing, and a while after release).

The problem was that they ignored a lot of it.

 

Don't ship with bloatware? Ignored.

Make it possible to turn off auto-update? Ignored.

Add transparency to the task bar, start menu and title bar? They added two of the three things asked, 

marked it as solved and then locked all other threads because they were "duplicates".

'mazing. Perhaps they should... like, not do that? Just a suggestion, Microsoft ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Dabombinable]

4 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

They did collect feedback in the beginning (during testing, and a while after release).

The problem was that they ignored a lot of it.

 

Don't ship with bloatware? Ignored.

Make it possible to turn off auto-update? Ignored.

Add transparency to the task bar, start menu and title bar? They added two of the three things asked, 

marked it as solved and then locked all other threads because they were "duplicates".

 

 

Are you sure Caesar slots is installed by default? It has not been on any computers I have installed.

Please bear in mind that ads gets injected into your list of programs and the start menu in Windows 10. So even if Caesar slots appears on your computer, it might not be installed. You can turn that off though (which is absolutely not an excuse for the despicable behavior).

It has been on all of the computers I've worked on after installing Windows 10. It was a bit of a shock seeing it after doing a fresh install of the Windows 10 anniversary edition on my laptop after installing a lower power SSD in it. And having never even touched a gambling app (in fact the only Windows Store app I've ever actually used is Minecraft Windows 10 edition) there is no way in hell it should have been installed.

[LAwLz]

Just now, Daring said:

'mazing. Perhaps they should... like, not do that? Just a suggestion, Microsoft ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah...

It seemed like their "feedback system" was mostly just a facade. A way for them to just collect ideas they were already working on and then go "See? We did listen to our users!"

 

 

By the way, I think you can still give them feedback. But you have to enable full telemetry (and maybe even login with a Microsoft account) to submit it.