Microsoft announces the Surface Laptop - aimed at students

[79wjd]

Just now, GoodBytes said:

Ah I see! Very well, I stand corrected. Apologies @LAwLz.

You have to dig into the store to find it.

 

Looks like it is 1 or 2 person that spam the store with different company names making these shit apps, They also did the Chrome app, I am noticing.

I wouldn't really call it "digging". I'm not going to look at movies/music if I search for an app -- I'm going to jump to the apps section. 

[GoodBytes]

5 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

I wouldn't really call it "digging". I'm not going to look at movies/music if I search for an app -- I'm going to jump to the apps section. 

But regardless. they don't advertise as being Firefox. Just Guides Anyway, you can report the apps to be pulled.

And it's not like Android and iOS is any better. You have this shit. How many Flashlight app they are, when the flash light feature is built-in into the OS?

[79wjd]

Just now, GoodBytes said:

But regardless. they don't advertise as being Firefox. Anyway, you can report the apps to be pulled.

 

That not the point. The point was that the Windows app store may have 500,000 "apps", but they're mostly garbage. 

[GoodBytes]

1 minute ago, djdwosk97 said:

That not the point. The point was that the Windows app store may have 500,000 "apps", but they're mostly garbage. 

Like on iOS and Android.. They have millions of apps, but I am sure a nice percentage of them is is junk.

How about Steam that everyone loves? Soo many games.. but most of them are Greenlight garbage, repackaged games.

But like I said, just report it, and they'll be pulled.

[79wjd]

3 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Like on iOS and Android.. They have millions of apps, but I am sure a nice percentage of them is is junk

No one is denying that. The whole argument started when I said that Linux probably has better application support than the Windows Store. @AluminiumTech claimed that the Windows Store is great and you don't need to be able to run .exe's because the Windows Store has over 500,000 apps. 

 

On 5/3/2017 at 8:24 AM, djdwosk97 said:

Better application support than UWP. And I did say probably. 

On 5/3/2017 at 8:27 AM, AluminiumTech said:

Ummm no...

 

There are over 500,000 UWP/Universal apps. Find me a source which indicates how many linux apps there are which also have a windows version.

[ZeusXI]

On 5/2/2017 at 11:12 AM, ZM Fong said:

Still, it would be expensive, right?

Aimed at students in highschool/college? with the high price it seems like the colleges are in for some of that money

[GoodBytes]

4 minutes ago, djdwosk97 said:

No one is denying that. The whole argument started when I said that Linux probably has better application support than the Windows Store. @AluminiumTech claimed that the Windows Store is great and you don't need to be able to run .exe's because the Windows Store has over 500,000 apps. 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Oh! I missed that in this large thread. Then he is completely wrong on this and this is miss information, lying even I would grade this! This is not good info to spread @AluminiumTech. People might be influence with what you said, and they might get the product only to be disappointed. It has some good apps, but come on...

[suicidalfranco]

55 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

 

 

 

 

Funny... this is what I have, when I replicate your test:

  Hide contents

 

Strange how I don't have what you have... Photoshop much?

 

 

2 vs 1

You sure you're not the one doing the photoshoping?

[captain_to_fire]

55 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

 

 

 

 

Funny... this is what I have, when I replicate your test:

  Hide contents

Strange how I don't have what you have... Photoshop much?

 

 

There's a thing called geographical restrictions and services that are limited to certain markets. FYI ??‍♀️

[shermantanker]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

Well the mouse doesn't come with the system. Look at the Surface Arc Mouse.

Its a laptop mouse so it is small, and collapses flat for storage (which also turns it off).

 

You can also find the Microsoft non-Surface branded mouse for less. Not as nice looking (glossy plastic on button too, which might be an issue), and if I am not mistaken, it is not Bluetooth, it needs a wireless USB transceiver to be plugged into the system, but double check.

 

I just bought this http://www.bestbuy.com/site/microsoft-surface-mouse-silver/5663300.p?skuId=5663300

[captain_to_fire]

56 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Weird how you always jump to "you must be lying!" whenever something happens for someone but it doesn't happen for you. I thought you would have learned after getting TOLD so many times in the past.

Anyway, I don't think the other person who posted a similar screenshot appreciates being called a liar.

Or do you @hey_yo_?

I certainly do not mind being proven wrong and be corrected and in this very thread I acknowledged my mistake for saying that there's no option in Edge to change the search engine. But I stand to what I said that at the moment, the option isn't working and it's a bug in Microsoft Edge even post Creators Update. Also, anyone who is fully cognizant of Photoshop/Lightroom will know that the screenshots I shared aren't fakes. 

 

Also, I wasn't able to provide feedback to report the Edge bug because Windows wants me to change my telemetry privacy settings from Basic to Full which is ludicrous. 

 

[captain_to_fire]

19 hours ago, daniielrp said:

So this is a bit confusing.

 

Microsoft have been saying for years that a hybrid/detachable is better than Apple's one device for each category idea (which I prefer - my laptop is 100% laptop, and my tablet is 100% tablet, not some compromised in between...thing). 

 

But now they make their own laptop - so are they changing their minds on hybrids?

 

And the price...wtf. For an ultrabook, yeh fine. But you can't say this is designed to compete with £200 Chromebooks. 

Because their hybrid device namely the Surface Pro isn't as "lappable (a silly term coined by Panos Panay)" as a traditional clamshell laptop. And of course, Microsoft surprisingly ditched IO that is essential for their target audience.

• Only one type A USB 
• Kept the old mini display port instead of Thunderbolt 3 via USB Type C 
• Since no Thunderbolt 3, no eGPU for graphic designers, video editors and the occasional gamer. 
• Since it has no Thunderbolt 3, the Surface Dock is slower

 

[GoodBytes]

28 minutes ago, hey_yo_ said:

Because their hybrid device namely the Surface Pro isn't as "lappable (a silly term coined by Panos Panay)" as a traditional clamshell laptop. And of course, Microsoft surprisingly ditched IO that is essential for their target audience.

• Only one type A USB 
• Kept the old mini display port instead of Thunderbolt 3 via USB Type C 
• Since no Thunderbolt 3, no eGPU for graphic designers, video editors and the occasional gamer. 
• Since it has no Thunderbolt 3, the Surface Dock is slower

 

All I have as info, well digging around for an answer from MS. There is was no space.

Now, Look at tear down of the Surface Pro, yes it is true that there was no room. On this system, we don't know.

BUT, the mini-DisplayPort could have been replaced by a USB Type-C, but I think they didn't want to do it, because they want Thunderbolt and that is not only expensive chip, but also take space. That is my guess. Personally, I would replace the mini DP, with USB Type C without Thunderbolt.

 

Personally, I am not excited about Thunderbolt.. I would wait for Thunderbolt 4 to have more bandwidth to actually make it interesting for external GPU with inputs (hopefully). GPU enclosures are still too pricey.

[captain_to_fire]

6 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

but I think they didn't want to do it, because they want Thunderbolt and that is not only expensive chip, but also take space

Thunderbolt 3 is smaller than type A USB and mini display port. Also, Thunberbolt 3 controllers aren't that expensive if it's just a single port.

Besides, Thunderbolt 3 is a fair expectation for newer laptops at that price and I don't think Microsoft is really targeting college students struggling financially.

[mr moose]

3 minutes ago, hey_yo_ said:

Thunderbolt 3 is smaller than type A USB and mini display port. Also, Thunberbolt 3 controllers aren't that expensive if it's just a single port.

Besides, Thunderbolt 3 is a fair expectation for newer laptops at that price and I don't think Microsoft is really targeting college students struggling financially.

I don't think goodbytes was referring to the size of the port but the size of the chip they have to find room for on the mainboard.  

 

Your right about the struggling thing,  quality costs and no company can deliver $1000 laptops cheaper than plastic fantastic crapalific laptops just becasue they are struggling. 

 

[captain_to_fire]

24 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I don't think goodbytes was referring to the size of the port but the size of the chip they have to find room for on the mainboard.  

 

Your right about the struggling thing,  quality costs and no company can deliver $1000 laptops cheaper than plastic fantastic crapalific laptops just becasue they are struggling. 

 

Apple did manage to cram Thunderbolt 3 controllers with their 13" and 15" 2016 MacBook Pro. The 13" MacBook Pro is 0.59" thick whereas the Surface laptop is 0.57" thick. I don't think the difference in thickness is significant to be a valid reason why Microsoft shouldn't put a Thunderbolt 3 controller in their new laptop line worth $1000 and more.

 

The reason I'm seeing is that Microsoft wanted people to buy their Surface Dock. 

[mr moose]

Just now, hey_yo_ said:

Apple did manage to cram Thunderbolt 3 controllers with their 13" and 15" 2016 MacBook Pro. The 13" MacBook Pro is 0.59" thick whereas the Surface laptop is 0.57" thick. I don't think the difference in thickness is significant to be a valid reason why Microsoft shouldn't put a Thunderbolt 3 controller in their new laptop line worth $1000 and more.

 

The reason I'm seeing is that Microsoft wanted people to buy their Surface Dock. 

So good you had to post it twice  

 

You might be right about the dock thing.  I just know there are always trade off's when designing these things (most things actually).  Every little bit of space, heat and power draw is taken to the nth degree to ensure the end result gets the desired outcome.

[GoodBytes]

55 minutes ago, hey_yo_ said:

Thunderbolt 3 is smaller than type A USB and mini display port. Also, Thunberbolt 3 controllers aren't that expensive if it's just a single port.

 

Besides, Thunderbolt 3 is a fair expectation for newer laptops at that price and I don't think Microsoft is really targeting college students struggling financially.

I was referring to the size of the chip and space needed for the wiring that is added to the USB port. Prototype picture provided by Microsoft shows that they were aiming for 3 USB ports (2x USB Type-C, and 1 USB Type A). We got 1 Type-A

 

(go to 1min and 2sec)

 

Also you forgot:

• High License fee cost (Apple has a special deal with Intel, they probably have it for free).
• Cost of Driver development (Intel has no drivers for it)
• Cost of Testing of the hardware, firmware and driver QC

We don't know the internet. Good for Apple that they made it fit. Microsoft didn't manage. Probably they wanted to put more battery inside. Maybe the system is smaller than the MacBook Pro because, as we can see, it doesn't have speakers (they are under the keyboard).

 

We need to see a tear down of the system. Until then, we go with what Microsoft is saying. And so far, they haven't lied.

 

 

[captain_to_fire]

Just now, mr moose said:

So good you had to post it twice  

I don't know what happened, it's good a mod deleted the other one. 

1 minute ago, mr moose said:

Every little bit of space, heat and power draw is taken to the nth degree to ensure the end result gets the desired outcome.

A Thunberbolt 3 controller isn't big at all to be a concern for thermals especially it is Microsoft the one designing their own motherboards for their laptops so no 4K monitors at 60 Hz or eGPUs for Surface laptop owners.

[captain_to_fire]

2 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

High License fee cost (Apple has a special deal with Intel, they probably have it for free).

True that Apple co-developed Thunderbolt with Intel but other PC OEMs have put Thunberbolt 3 to their devices. Just look at Dell and Lenovo. If you have looked at the cost of Thunderbolt 3 controllers, it's not very expensive at all and it's Microsoft we're talking about.

 

6 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Cost of Driver development (Intel has no drivers for it)

Again, smaller OEMs have managed to put Thunderbolt 3. Why can't Microsoft? Cost shouldn't be an issue for them at all.

[zMeul]

remember when Gabe Newell and Tim Sweeney predicted MS will force people to install software only from MS' Store ...

yeah  and people called them nuts

[GoodBytes]

32 minutes ago, hey_yo_ said:

I don't know what happened, it's good a mod deleted the other one. 

Yea I did.

 

Quote

A Thunberbolt 3 controller isn't big at all to be a concern for thermals especially it is Microsoft the one designing their own motherboards for their laptops so no 4K monitors at 60 Hz or eGPUs for Surface laptop owners.

 

27 minutes ago, hey_yo_ said:

True that Apple co-developed Thunderbolt with Intel but other PC OEMs have put Thunberbolt 3 to their devices. Just look at Dell and Lenovo. If you have looked at the cost of Thunderbolt 3 controllers, it's not very expensive at all and it's Microsoft we're talking about.

 

Again, smaller OEMs have managed to put Thunderbolt 3. Why can't Microsoft? Cost shouldn't be an issue for them at all.

I am sure Microsoft did market analysis and decided that the profit margin reduction by putting Thunderbolt, is not worth it. Premium system is where profits are. But fancy materials, and fancy design with fancy finishing is costly as well. R&D also cost a lot to make the system, and the design of the system. In order for Microsoft to make it profitable for them to made their Surface, they need significant profit. Normally. OEMs made little to no money on their laptop. They make money when you pick that extra large battery, when you buy another battery from them later on, you get the dock station, and other accessories, warranty coverage extensions. Doing this kind of business, is against Microsoft business model. That explains why a Surface 4 (none Pro) never came to be, and that is despite the Surface 3 still being expensive. Will they try again? Maybe, but making affordable system is not in their plans. This is also why you have Microsoft and Apple able to innovate or bring new designs, and try things (well...for Apple, it died down in the recent years, possibly due that the CEO is pushing more for accessory profitability rather than innovation... which will cost them dearly in the long term), and why OEMs like Dell, HP and so on, can innovate here and there, but it is at a slow paste. Look at the Dell UltraSharp series monitors. Those are pricey monitors, but the high profit they make allows them to push innovation time and time again, and are able to work with manufactures to make their new displays panel possible. Every now and then you hear some crazy monitor from them. Yet, HP, Acer, Lenovo, and so on, rarely make a mark in the news.

 

I am not defending the price point of the Surface Laptop, or Surface products. They are pricey, I said that many times. But I am saying that this is the reality of the market. You "always" get the best experiences (and innovations) when the profit margin are large for a company. Look at air travel. Most businesses require employee to fly with the cheapest flight ticket they can get. So what do air lines do? Cut the price... how they do it when operation cost goes up or steady? Go by volume, and make everything extra. Go business or first class... 0 problem, best service, best comfort, everything is free: meals, snacks, etc.. short or long trip, local one or international one. If the FAA allowed passengers to stand like have a city public transport bus layout, they would, and they'll advertise really really cheap tickets.

[ARikozuM]

On 5/2/2017 at 11:46 PM, dexT said:

I only care about speed. I'd compute on a sardine can if it goes fast.

I'd rather not have fish broth TIM, but you do you.

[mr moose]

6 hours ago, hey_yo_ said:

I don't know what happened, it's good a mod deleted the other one. 

A Thunberbolt 3 controller isn't big at all to be a concern for thermals especially it is Microsoft the one designing their own motherboards for their laptops so no 4K monitors at 60 Hz or eGPUs for Surface laptop owners.

 

It's not just the chip that takes up room, they have to run traces and add discrete components to enable the chip to work. Look at how far the traces run from that chip before they disappear into the board.   All of this takes up space and every mm counts.

 

Now I don't personally know about MS's design brief on this product, but If a manufacturer can compromise between a feature that their target demographic are less likely to use* and 2mm of thickness then they will.  This is why many products do not have RJ45 and some don't ship with an optical drive anymore.  Every mm and mA counts.  

 

*Yes in this instance the vast majority will not be using eGPU, 4K/60Hz monitors or the like.

[Shoob]

Looking at the full specs, why does this thing only have a one year warranty?