Microsoft announces the Surface Laptop - aimed at students

[LAwLz]

Just a quick comparison to the Asus ZenBook UX330UA. Please note that the Asus one is available with a 1920x1080 screen for 700 dollars. I went with the more expensive, super high res model just because.

 

So the Surface book is bigger, slower, has less storage, fewer ports, a gimped version of Windows, shorter warranty and is significantly more expensive (about 30% more expensive).

Sure it has a better screen (presumably) and might have longer battery life (hard to say just from the manufacturer numbers), but I really don't see why anyone would buy the Surface laptop over the Asus one.

 

I also don't buy the whole "Microsoft did not have room for X and Y" argument. Sure when they open the device up it might be full, because who would leave a big empty hole in the laptop? But clearly other manufacturers can do it so there is no reason that Microsoft can't, unless Microsoft is just not as good as other manufacturers at building laptops. Especially since the Surface Laptop is bigger than the Asus one.

[mr moose]

34 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

snip

Bloody yanks get all the good deals, that's a $1500 laptop in Australia.

 

https://www.scorptec.com.au/product/Notebooks/Ultrabook/68081-UX330UA-FC083R
 

this is one of our cheapest tech stores.

EDIT: just realised that's an i7 not an i5.  However $500 just to have the i7 instead of the i5 is silly at any rate.

EDIT2: it looks like you can;t get the i5 model in Australia and the cheapest I can find is $1300. Even after exchange rates that's still $961 US.

[suicidalfranco]

34 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Just a quick comparison to the Asus ZenBook UX330UA. Please note that the Asus one is available with a 1920x1080 screen for 700 dollars. I went with the more expensive, super high res model just because.

 

So the Surface book is bigger, slower, has less storage, fewer ports, a gimped version of Windows, shorter warranty and is significantly more expensive (about 30% more expensive).

Sure it has a better screen (presumably) and might have longer battery life (hard to say just from the manufacturer numbers), but I really don't see why anyone would buy the Surface laptop over the Asus one.

 

I also don't buy the whole "Microsoft did not have room for X and Y" argument. Sure when they open the device up it might be full, because who would leave a big empty hole in the laptop? But clearly other manufacturers can do it so there is no reason that Microsoft can't, unless Microsoft is just not as good as other manufacturers at building laptops. Especially since the Surface Laptop is bigger than the Asus one

yeah but you don't get Windows S. Why pay less when you can pay a bit more to experience the future of desktop computing

 

 

 

 

/s

[79wjd]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Just a quick comparison to the Asus ZenBook UX330UA. Please note that the Asus one is available with a 1920x1080 screen for 700 dollars. I went with the more expensive, super high res model just because.

 

-snip-

 

So the Surface book is bigger, slower, has less storage, fewer ports, a gimped version of Windows, shorter warranty and is significantly more expensive (about 30% more expensive).

Sure it has a better screen (presumably) and might have longer battery life (hard to say just from the manufacturer numbers), but I really don't see why anyone would buy the Surface laptop over the Asus one.

I also wouldn't touch an Asus laptop with a ten foot pole due to my experience with their customer support. The same goes for Acer, Samsung, MSI, and HP as I've either seen too many issues with them or have heard they have terrible support as well. 

[GoodBytes]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Just a quick comparison to the Asus ZenBook UX330UA. Please note that the Asus one is available with a 1920x1080 screen for 700 dollars. I went with the more expensive, super high res model just because.

 

So the Surface book is bigger, slower, has less storage, fewer ports, a gimped version of Windows, shorter warranty and is significantly more expensive (about 30% more expensive).

Sure it has a better screen (presumably) and might have longer battery life (hard to say just from the manufacturer numbers), but I really don't see why anyone would buy the Surface laptop over the Asus one.

 

I also don't buy the whole "Microsoft did not have room for X and Y" argument. Sure when they open the device up it might be full, because who would leave a big empty hole in the laptop? But clearly other manufacturers can do it so there is no reason that Microsoft can't, unless Microsoft is just not as good as other manufacturers at building laptops. Especially since the Surface Laptop is bigger than the Asus one.

Yeaaa. you missed Windows Hello.

 

But my experience with ASUS, is nothing less than the worst consumer service ever. I got everything from a voice mail box when calling for RMA, which they never call you back, yo a guy going "Yea? What's you want! :SSSSIIIIIIGGGHHHH: Sooooo you say you have a problem with your motherboard.... did you call tech support first? DID you CALL tech support first!!!" Type of attitude. And after passing this ordeal that took over a week, it took well over a month to get my motherboard replaced, and instead of getting a refurbished one, or mine back, I got someone else motherboard with its own problems. How do I know? It was super dusty, complete with dust in the PCI-E ports, and when I called, they say refuse to acknowledge anything, and say that it is normal. I had to clean this board, put it on my system only to discover the other guy problem, faulty Ethernet.

 

Ok, I have fallen to a bad apple... sure... A friend of mine ASUS motherboard broke after a few month after I got mine back, he called, and similar experience. In his case, the answer machine said that ASUS Tech Support was closed for the week for "holidays". There is no holidays during that period in Canada, US, nor Taiwan, based on Google. So a week later he called, lines a flooded or voice mail box, of course, a week later, he finally get someone on the line, with another person that hates his life, shipped it, more than a month wait, gets a motherboard, dusty, missing CMOS battery, apparently was tested, he went out, bought the battery put it in, and even it didn't even power the system. After spending hours doing diagnostics, going through ASUS support only to have them say to RMA it again, he rage quit, by removing the motherboard and snap it in two with his leg, and went to a local computer shop and just bought whatever they had for his CPU.

 

Reading on the web, this is not isolated cases. Although, if you are in Britain it seems that the service is excellent.

 

Also the Surface laptop comes junk free... so clean in fact that you won't even have the Intel Control Panel for the graphics settings. You just have Windows with the default apps that gets installed/pinned shortcuts and that is all. ASUS has trial software and other promotions to drop the price of the system that needs to be cleaned up.

 

Also, ASUS likes to use software driven features, meaning it doesn't do it at the hardware level. You are limited to OS support with their drivers, or stuff like screen brightness might not work.

 

 

Microsoft warranty service is similar to Apple, if you go to a MS store they'll just swamp the system if they have it in stock. You have a new system. If you need to ship it, in a week or so, you'll have a replacement unit. If the system is old and not produced (say you got the Microsoft Complete, for the 2 year warranty + accidental damage protection), you can end up with the the newer model. I shipped a Surface Pro 2 for repair, I got a Surface Pro 3 (same spec) + keyboard cover + pen + power adapter.

[Dabombinable]

1 minute ago, GoodBytes said:

Also the Surface laptop comes junk free... so clean in fact that you won't even have the Intel Control Panel for the graphics settings. You just have Windows with the default apps that gets installed/pinned shortcuts and that is all. ASUS has trial software and other promotions to drop the price of the system that needs to be cleaned up.

Which is where you'd get a "signature" laptop-of which there are models better than the new Surface laptop, for less. As for Asus software/bloatware, all that was on my U38N was driver control panels-and in the case of my tablet, apps which were there as a replacement for the bare bones Android versions (until I updated it to Android 6, which is definitely the best version for Tegra 3).

[captain_to_fire]

6 hours ago, mr moose said:

 

It's not just the chip that takes up room, they have to run traces and add discrete components to enable the chip to work. Look at how far the traces run from that chip before they disappear into the board.   All of this takes up space and every mm counts.

 

Now I don't personally know about MS's design brief on this product, but If a manufacturer can compromise between a feature that their target demographic are less likely to use* and 2mm of thickness then they will.  This is why many products do not have RJ45 and some don't ship with an optical drive anymore.  Every mm and mA counts.  

 

*Yes in this instance the vast majority will not be using eGPU, 4K/60Hz monitors or the like.

But Apple managed to cram two Thunderbolt 3 via type C USB on the 13" 2016 MacBook Pro. The MBP is 0.59" thick while the Surface Laptop is at 0.57". That wasn't a significant thickness difference at all. Whatever the reason is, a modern IO like Thunderbolt 3 is a fair expectation for a modern laptop and they failed on that regard. Besides, they did instead put a single type A USB which is basically just a single mouse or an external hard drive which is lame. If they instead put a single Thunderbolt 3 port, that can extend functionality since it can carry 40 Gbps in comparison of 5 Gbps of USB 3.0. Also, the MacBook Pro has stereo speakers that are loud, and it has th Touch ID sensor (for the touch bar model) and Apple was able to cram it all. 

[mr moose]

Just now, hey_yo_ said:

But Apple managed to cram two Thunderbolt 3 via type C USB on the 13" 2016 MacBook Pro. The MBP is 0.59" thick while the Surface Laptop is at 0.57". That wasn't a significant thickness difference at all. Whatever the reason is, a modern IO like Thunderbolt 3 is a fair expectation for a modern laptop and they failed on that regard. Besides, they did instead put a single type A USB which is basically just a single mouse or an external hard drive which is lame. If they instead put a single Thunderbolt 3 port, that can extend functionality since it can carry 40 Gbps in comparison of 5 Gbps of USB 3.0. Also, the MacBook Pro has stereo speakers that are loud, and it has th Touch ID sensor (for the touch bar model) and Apple was able to cram it all. 

It might be lame to power uses and tech enthusiasts such as yourself, But this device isn't aimed at you or me, it's aimed at people who probable wont plug anything in bigger than a USB drive.

 

As I said before I don't know what MS's design brief was.  So I won't sit here and pontificate why they did what hey did. I'm just suggesting there are more reasons than simply being evil or incompetence.   Most companies don't intentionally gimp their products if they know it will harm sales. 

[GoodBytes]

33 minutes ago, mr moose said:

It might be lame to power uses and tech enthusiasts such as yourself, But this device isn't aimed at you or me, it's aimed at people who probable wont plug anything in bigger than a USB drive.

 

As I said before I don't know what MS's design brief was.  So I won't sit here and pontificate why they did what hey did. I'm just suggesting there are more reasons than simply being evil or incompetence.   Most companies don't intentionally gimp their products if they know it will harm sales. 

Cannot agree more.

 

Plus, I can sure bet that 99%, if not 100% of everyone here that complains here, will never use Thunderbolt 3 on the system, if it came with one. Here is why:

1. As mentioned a Thunderbolt powered external GPU is very costly.
2. The performance drop due to bandwidth limitation of Thunderbolt is a lot, especially if you loop back the rendered image back to the display, and you have many things connected to the I/O hub in the external GPU box.
3. Even if you get the Core i7, it is still a dual core CPUs. Intel doesn't have quad core U series CPUs.
4. You won't buy it anyways, because you'll aim at a "gaming laptop" in any case, which you'll save money regardless (despite worst battery life, and heavier system)
5. You'll complain that the CPU will not allow you to enjoy Turbo Boost under extended gaming session as the laptop was not designed to be pushed for so long, and hence the point above.

Look at MacBook Pro, still no one uses thunderbolt.

 

If anything, if anything at all, Microsoft is better to wait for a better thunderbolt, where there is purpose, and maybe by then, an external GPU enclosure will reduce in price.

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

-snip-

Just take the laptop back to the store if it is broken. Or can you not do that in Canada?

I have never contacted the manufacturer for anything.

 

1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

Also the Surface laptop comes junk free... so clean in fact that you won't even have the Intel Control Panel for the graphics settings. You just have Windows with the default apps that gets installed/pinned shortcuts and that is all. ASUS has trial software and other promotions to drop the price of the system that needs to be cleaned up.

No it doesn't.

Windows 10 by itself is full of junk. Candy crush, ads in every corner, and so on.

Pretty sure Windows 10 even comes with trial software these days.

 

 

Anyway, the Asus laptop is way better. If you value the support from Microsoft at 300+ dollars then good for you. I don't, and I doubt most people will.

[dexT]

Wait.. DDR3? AAAHAHAHAHAA( EDIT:@LAwLz is DDR3 OR 4?)

 

Seriously though the Orwellian white-knighting in the last few pages is disgusting.

[LAwLz]

16 minutes ago, dexT said:

Wait.. DDR3? AAAHAHAHAHAA( EDIT:@LAwLz is DDR3 OR 4?)

 

Seriously though the Orwellian white-knighting in the last few pages is disgusting.

It's DDR3. I think there is a technical reason for it. Don't know why but the MacBook Pro and the Asus one I linked has DDR3 too. I think it's a limit on Intel's side. 

[suicidalfranco]

17 minutes ago, dexT said:

Orwellian white-knighting

what's this now?

[GoodBytes]

21 minutes ago, dexT said:

Wait.. DDR3? AAAHAHAHAHAA( EDIT:@LAwLz is DDR3 OR 4?)

 

Seriously though the Orwellian white-knighting in the last few pages is disgusting.

They are conflicting reports between: DDR3, LPDDR3, DDR4, and LPDDR4.

 

They probably took LPDDR3 to maximize battery life, despite the higher cost. There are probably issues with LPDDR4 with Kaby Lake..

[79wjd]

27 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Just take the laptop back to the store if it is broken. Or can you not do that in Canada?

I have never contacted the manufacturer for anything.

 

Anyway, the Asus laptop is way better. If you value the support from Microsoft at 300+ dollars then good for you. I don't, and I doubt most people will.

In the US you have to go to the manufacturer, not the store. So support is important, and just dealing with Asus to ask a simple question about my $100 router was like pulling teeth, I wouldn't want to deal with that on an $800 laptop.

3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

It's DDR3. I think there is a technical reason for it. Don't know why but the MacBook Pro and the Asus one I linked has DDR3 too. I think it's a limit on Intel's side. 

They use LPDDR3 for battery life reasons.

[dexT]

Just now, LAwLz said:

It's DDR3. I think there is a technical reason for it. Don't know why but the MacBook Pro and the Asus one I linked has DDR3 too. I think it's a limit on Intel's side. 

My Lenovo 310 with Kaby i7 uses DDR4?

[GoodBytes]

1 minute ago, dexT said:

My Lenovo 310 with Kaby i7 uses DDR4?

LPDDR3 consumes less power than DDR4.

[dexT]

Just now, GoodBytes said:

LPDDR3 consumes less power than DDR4.

I was under the impression they were both 1.2V. My mistake.

[GoodBytes]

3 minutes ago, dexT said:

I was under the impression they were both 1.2V. My mistake.

It goes beyond voltage. Look it up

Sorry for a more detailed answer I don't have the time at the moment.

[dexT]

Just now, GoodBytes said:

It goes beyond voltage. Look it up

Sorry for a more detailed answer I don't have the time at the moment.

I'm ok.

 

What speed effective? 1866 max?

[Drak3]

"Joke about how the only way this aimed at students if you throw it at them, hard"

[GoodBytes]

50 minutes ago, dexT said:

I'm ok.

 

What speed effective? 1866 max?

So far, Microsoft picked the fastest memor that the CPU model officially support. So I would expect the same.

[Nowak]

Dave2D made a video on the Surface Laptop, expressing some of the same concerns I've seen in this thread.

 

Obviously people here who think the Laptop has problems (namely the single USB-A port, the durability of the keyboard material over time, only 4GB RAM on the $999 base model and Windows 10 S's locked-down nature) will agree with him, but how about people here who do not? Do you feel he expressed his concerns in a... shall I say, more professional manner?

[NinerL]

It's 2017 there's no reason to not have USB C or DDR4. Even a $350 Acer laptop is sporting 4GB's of DDR4 .

[79wjd]

1 minute ago, NinerL said:

It's 2017 there's no reason to not have USB C or DDR4. Even a $350 Acer laptop is sporting 4GB's of DDR4 .

LPDDR3 is still fine, there isn't much of an advantage to DDR4 other than the ability for higher capacities >16gb, but LPDDR3 does mean better battery life.