US voting machines are vulnerable to hackers

[TetraSky]

Couldn't they just prevent any sort of hacking, simply by blocking out any and all ports of the machine, with a locked steel plates?
Or better yet, just surround the entire machine, leaving only the screen, in a locked steel display type of case that fits to the edge of a screen?

 

The only reason these are not "secure", is because people aren't making them secure.

[TidaLWaveZ]

3 hours ago, mark_cameron said:

Voter machines are under the care of local election officials in the USA. Which are local volunteers including persons from both major political parties.

 

In order to properly cause a fraud would need to involve multiple persons and given the amount of legal scrutiny from an independent judiciary I find it highly unlikely of widespread voter fraud.

 

Donald Trump's comments on this were a disgrace.

 

I say this as a British person - not American person.

 

I am also mindful that Russian intelligence has been actively seeking ways to infilitrate the US election system electronically. At state level.

 

They also were recently denied access by US states to access - voting areas as 'observers'.

 

It was obvious what they were doing - one only has to see what RussiaToday in the UK is up to (sanctioned by OFCOM for reporting 'news' with absolutely no evidence to back it up).

 

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/sep/21/rt-sanctioned-over-series-of-misleading-articles-by-media-watchdog

 

 

I would say to American's. Do not allow hostile foreign actors (agencies)to undermine your democracy. I do not think US democracy is perfect. It is however - democratic and far better than some countries.

 

The US justice department should be leading the fight against voting fraud. Including technical attempts to hack election equipment. Americans should focus on the election (despite the mud slinging) and make their choice.

 

The same for Canadians or any other 'friendly' democratic state.

 

There is a lot of things going on in eastern Europe right now. Interference in the US election is just one thread in the bigger picture at the moment.

Money talks man. I agree that one large scale rig is nearly impossible but a bunch of small paid swings could easily be accomplished by either side.

[vshah]

10 hours ago, Jovidah said:

This is why here in the Netherlands they decided not to use digital voting. It's all old-fashioned paper-based. Surprised they're going for electronic in the US, especially considering how big of a target they're likely to be.

But the one major problem is the population of the US compared to the Netherlands and how a lot of US states are shutting down a lot of polling stations. Don't get me wrong, I would love a fully old fashioned paper-based system but it would be very difficult to implement it here.

[Delicieuxz]

11 hours ago, zMeul said:

yes

in case of you ignoring facts, Russia self appropriated Ukrainian territory while all the fucking world stood by

Actually, Crimea had been openly trying to rejoin Russia for over 2 decades, before it finally happened. They already were Russian, in everything but official recognition: Russian as their primary language, Russian passports, Russian as the predominant people, a parliament which long espoused an intention to rejoin Russia, closer ties to Russia than to any other part of Ukraine... autonomous school, infrastructure, policing, etc.

 

And after the 2014 Crimean referendum, Crimea' government applies to Russia for accession with formal legal documents. So, Russia didn't take Crimea... Crimea gave itself to Russia, just as they had wanted to all along.

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/john-o’loughlin-gerard-toal/crimean-conundrum

https://www.newcoldwar.org/another-survey-showing-crimeans-content-with-the-break-from-ukraine/

http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/op-ed-two-recent-surveys-show-strong-support-for-crimea-joining-russia/article/427832

http://www.unz.com/akarlin/crimean-tatars-for-russia/

http://www.politforums.net/eng/ukraine/1423123708.html

http://nsnbc.me/2014/03/19/what-the-western-media-wont-tell-you-about-the-referendum-in-crimea/

 

It's the USA which helped to destabilize West Ukraine, and it's West Ukraine which conducted an illegal coup which nullified former-Ukraine's constitution, and therefore also its legal and territorial statuses. The world should have stopped what happened in West Ukraine, but the West was involved in what was happening in West Ukraine. But, what happened in Crimea was the democratic will of the peoples, without contravening any domestic laws, and entirely protected by international law.

[mark_cameron]

most of this is just Russian propaganda.

 

the revrevolt in West Ukraine opened due mass corruption,  poor governance and the police hooting unarmed protestors.

 

The incitement to violence in East Ukraine was a Russian response.

 

USA and Europe had little to do with it. despite your claims

On 11/7/2016 at 8:40 PM, Delicieuxz said:

Actually, Crimea had been openly trying to rejoin Russia for over 2 decades, before it finally happened. They already were Russian, in everything but official recognition: Russian as their primary language, Russian passports, Russian as the predominant people, a parliament which long espoused an intention to rejoin Russia, closer ties to Russia than to any other part of Ukraine... autonomous school, infrastructure, policing, etc.

 

And after the 2014 Crimean referendum, Crimea' government applies to Russia for accession with formal legal documents. So, Russia didn't take Crimea... Crimea gave itself to Russia, just as they had wanted to all along.

 

https://www.opendemocracy.net/od-russia/john-o’loughlin-gerard-toal/crimean-conundrum

https://www.newcoldwar.org/another-survey-showing-crimeans-content-with-the-break-from-ukraine/

http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/world/op-ed-two-recent-surveys-show-strong-support-for-crimea-joining-russia/article/427832

http://www.unz.com/akarlin/crimean-tatars-for-russia/

http://www.politforums.net/eng/ukraine/1423123708.html

http://nsnbc.me/2014/03/19/what-the-western-media-wont-tell-you-about-the-referendum-in-crimea/

 

It's the USA which helped to destabilize West Ukraine, and it's West Ukraine which conducted an illegal coup which nullified former-Ukraine's constitution, and therefore also its legal and territorial statuses. The world should have stopped what happened in West Ukraine, but the West was involved in what was happening in West Ukraine. But, what happened in Crimea was the democratic will of the peoples, without contravening any domestic laws, and entirely protected by international law.

most of this is just Russian propaganda.

 

the revolt  in West Ukraine opened due mass corruption,  poor governance and the police shooting unarmed protestors.

 

The incitement to violence in East Ukraine was a Russian response.

 

 

USA and Europe had little to do with it. despite your claims

[JuztBe]

9 hours ago, TetraSky said:

Couldn't they just prevent any sort of hacking, simply by blocking out any and all ports of the machine, with a locked steel plates?
Or better yet, just surround the entire machine, leaving only the screen, in a locked steel display type of case that fits to the edge of a screen?

 

The only reason these are not "secure", is because people aren't making them secure.

That doesn't prevent them from being hacked/rigged before they even were brought to voting places. 

[Rotterdams]

Voting with old school paper can be falsed easly aswel.

 

Im sure Trump suporters will call it a hack because Trump will lose anyway...

[Delicieuxz]

4 hours ago, mark_cameron said:

most of this is just Russian propaganda.

 

the revolt  in West Ukraine opened due mass corruption,  poor governance and the police shooting unarmed protestors.

 

The incitement to violence in East Ukraine was a Russian response.

 

USA and Europe had little to do with it. despite your claims

Actually, absolutely none of what I wrote is Russian propaganda, nor are the links Russian links, nor were the polls conducted at the behest of Russian sources, but by Western sources, who conceded following the data of their polls (some of them unhappily), that the Crimean referendum was entirely the democratic will of the Crimean people. However, what you wrote is just propaganda. Even the UK's state-sponsored propaganda station, the BBC, has conceded to the GfK's (one of the world's largest and most reputable pollsters) polling data:

"According to an opinion poll in February conducted by pollster GfK, 93% of the people asked said that they were happy that Crimea was under Russian control... Such an overwhelming figure might look distinctly Soviet, or even North Korean; but the polling organisation which conducted it was Ukrainian, not Russian."

 

 

 

"the revolt  in West Ukraine opened due mass corruption,  poor governance and the police shooting unarmed protestors."

 

Uh, the protests were caused by police shooting protesters? That would imply that the protests were already happening.

 

 

Having an idea is great, but it is better to have checked to see if any part of what you have to say is actually accurate, before venturing it.

 

"USA and Europe had little to do with it. despite your claims"

 

Yeah, spending $5 to "promote democracy" clearly went towards supporting the democratically-elected, pro-Russia government of former-Ukraine, and not towards destabilizing that government, in order to install a pro-EU, albeit neo-Nazi government, through non-democratic means.

The Guardian: US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/07/us-foreign-aid-ukraine_n_4914682.html

http://www.unian.info/politics/910206-since-1991-us-has-invested-5-billion-to-promote-democracy-in-ukraine-but-they-did-not-finance-maidan-nuland.html

http://original.antiwar.com/paul/2016/08/21/what-should-we-do-about-crimea/

 

 

All pre-referendum polls, going back 20 years, showed that Crimeans wanted to rejoin Russia. Crimea wasn't even functionally a part of Ukraine since 1991, having become an autonomous region since 1991, and having declared its independence from Ukraine twice already. Also, the population of Crimea has been predominantly ethnic Russia since the start of the 20th century. There was never a chance that Crimeans would vote for anything other than to rejoin Russia, and all the places you get your British propaganda from knew it, even while they were preparing and delivering their propaganda claiming the opposite to you.

 

History of Crimea's demographics, showing that ethnic Russians have been the predominant people of the territory through the 20th century

LA Times, 1994: Crimea OKs Constitution Declaring Its Independence From Ukraine

NY Times, 1994: Separatist Winning Crimea Presidency

The Guardian: Crimea goes to the polls with landslide expected for union with Russia

A multi-year collection of pre-referendum poll data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014#Polling

Bloomberg: One Year Later, Crimeans Prefer Russia

 

 

A big question is, why are you, while being aligned with what is completely propaganda, accusing the genuine truth of being propaganda, despite that you must surely know for yourself that you don't know the truth of what you claim, since you couldn't know it, since what you claim isn't the truth, and is opposite of the truth.

 

Crimeans voted 94% in favour of leaving Ukraine and rejoining the USSR in 1991... almost exactly the number who voted in favour of rejoining Russia in 2014. Obviously, the will of the people has been set for a long time.

 

So, exactly which part of the only veritable history of humanity on Earth is it that you find to be "Russian propaganda"?

[tlink]

1 hour ago, Rotterdams said:

Voting with old school paper can be falsed easly aswel.

 

Im sure Trump suporters will call it a hack because Trump will lose anyway...

everyone keeps saying that but nobody actually gives concrete evidence that voting machines are harder to falsify than paper. paper is just plain easier and cheaper.

[Ryujin2003]

21 hours ago, zMeul said:

Hillary?! U joking right?! soviet russia needs to be kept under pressure

the fucking moron, Trump, wants to retreat the NATO and US forces from Eastern Europe - that's how you start WW3

Because our current establishment is known for supporting our allies??? Either way is broken. Time for some concrete basements and tin foil hats.

[zMeul]

3 minutes ago, Ryujin2003 said:

Because our current establishment is known for supporting our allies??? Either way is broken. Time for some concrete basements and tin foil hats.

the NATO troops are here, in rotation, there is a military base

and recently we have launched Aegis Ballistic Missile Defense System at Deveselu

[apm]

3 hours ago, tlink said:

everyone keeps saying that but nobody actually gives concrete evidence that voting machines are harder to falsify than paper. paper is just plain easier and cheaper.

 

voting machines are plainly against democracy, because no one understands how the voting process works anymore.

how can the average citizen tell that his/her vote counted?

paper is just way easier and it should be harder to switch or change them, as there too many eyes on them.

you also have to keep the machines for decades for them to harmonize to paper votings.

 

how are the machines stored and who has access to them before the vote?

 

[TidaLWaveZ]

44 minutes ago, apm said:

 

voting machines are plainly against democracy, because no one understands how the voting process works anymore.

how can the average citizen tell that his/her vote counted?

paper is just way easier and it should be harder to switch or change them, as there too many eyes on them.

you also have to keep the machines for decades for them to harmonize to paper votings.

 

how are the machines stored and who has access to them before the vote?

 

 

Apparently machines are tested by people from the he US Election Assistance Commission who are supervised by state representatives then locked away until brought out on election day.

 

It really doesn't matter as any form of voting available today has multiple opportunities to be tampered with before, during, and after the actual voter casts their vote.

 

If you think about it, your vote could change more than once.  A machine could be set to change your vote or ignore it as soon as you press the button, then it could be switched out or dismissed when delivered to the counting facility and then later switched or ignored at the counting facility.

 

It really, really doesn't matter because citizens votes don't count at all. Electors can vote however they want, regardless of the popular vote.

[tlink]

29 minutes ago, TidaLWaveZ said:

 

Apparently machines are tested by people from the he US Election Assistance Commission who are supervised by state representatives then locked away until brought out on election day.

 

It really doesn't matter as any form of voting available today has multiple opportunities to be tampered with before, during, and after the actual voter casts their vote.

 

If you think about it, your vote could change more than once.  A machine could be set to change your vote or ignore it as soon as you press the button, then it could be switched out or dismissed when delivered to the counting facility and then later switched or ignored at the counting facility.

 

It really, really doesn't matter because citizens votes don't count at all. Electors can vote however they want, regardless of the popular vote.

just because the system higher up is broken doesn't mean that you shouldn't fix the faundation.

[TidaLWaveZ]

8 minutes ago, tlink said:

just because the system higher up is broken doesn't mean that you shouldn't fix the faundation.

Agreed, but you would be fixing the foundation in vain if you can't or at least don't have a plan to fix the rest.

[stconquest]

30 minutes ago, TidaLWaveZ said:

Agreed, but you would be fixing the foundation in vain if you can't or at least don't have a plan to fix the rest.

Better regulate the political funding that is currently buying up the government.  Both Clinton and Trump could be nullified as candidates if they coordinated with superpacs... oh wait, there is evidence each of them did...

 

...shit, do away with superpacs entirely.

 

The first source I could find, just for context:

 

http://billmoyers.com/story/clinton-trump-super-pacs-violate-key-money-politics-protections/

[TidaLWaveZ]

34 minutes ago, stconquest said:

Better regulate the political funding that is currently buying up the government.  Both Clinton and Trump could be nullified as candidates if they coordinated with superpacs... oh wait, there is evidence each of them did...

 

...shit, do away with superpacs entirely.

 

The first source I could find, just for context:

 

http://billmoyers.com/story/clinton-trump-super-pacs-violate-key-money-politics-protections/

 

No context necessary, just throw it in the endless pit of ignored corruption.

 

There's really no end to what is hidden from public eye whether it is in the nations best interest or not.

[Ryujin2003]

So, I'm getting the idea that Democracy isn't real? So the decisions are made by the decisions of the majority? That sounds like repression.

[TidaLWaveZ]

11 minutes ago, Ryujin2003 said:

So, I'm getting the idea that Democracy isn't real? So the decisions are made by the decisions of the majority? That sounds like repression.

A total direct or pure democracy is pretty much non existent when it comes to a large scale. Furthermore since the majority of representatives make the decisions, it's even further from a pure democracy.

[Wrb]

I didn't realize this was new Infomation, apparently lots of people are really uninformed.

[RagnarokDel]

Blockchain technology would allow e-voting to work.

[tlink]

On 11/8/2016 at 0:36 PM, Wrb said:

I didn't realize this was new Infomation, apparently lots of people are really uninformed.

what is new about this is that it has never been proved in practice, but yea i mainly posted this as a reminder.

On 11/8/2016 at 1:07 PM, RagnarokDel said:

Blockchain technology would allow e-voting to work.

but would that hold anonymity? 

[mark_cameron]

On 11/8/2016 at 3:46 AM, Delicieuxz said:

Actually, absolutely none of what I wrote is Russian propaganda, nor are the links Russian links, nor were the polls conducted at the behest of Russian sources, but by Western sources, who conceded following the data of their polls (some of them unhappily), that the Crimean referendum was entirely the democratic will of the Crimean people. However, what you wrote is just propaganda. Even the UK's state-sponsored propaganda station, the BBC, has conceded to the GfK's (one of the world's largest and most reputable pollsters) polling data:

"According to an opinion poll in February conducted by pollster GfK, 93% of the people asked said that they were happy that Crimea was under Russian control... Such an overwhelming figure might look distinctly Soviet, or even North Korean; but the polling organisation which conducted it was Ukrainian, not Russian."

 

 

 

"the revolt  in West Ukraine opened due mass corruption,  poor governance and the police shooting unarmed protestors."

 

Uh, the protests were caused by police shooting protesters? That would imply that the protests were already happening.

 

Having an idea is great, but it is better to have checked to see if any part of what you have to say is actually accurate, before venturing it.

 

"USA and Europe had little to do with it. despite your claims"

 

Yeah, spending $5 to "promote democracy" clearly went towards supporting the democratically-elected, pro-Russia government of former-Ukraine, and not towards destabilizing that government, in order to install a pro-EU, albeit neo-Nazi government, through non-democratic means.

The Guardian: US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/03/07/us-foreign-aid-ukraine_n_4914682.html

http://www.unian.info/politics/910206-since-1991-us-has-invested-5-billion-to-promote-democracy-in-ukraine-but-they-did-not-finance-maidan-nuland.html

http://original.antiwar.com/paul/2016/08/21/what-should-we-do-about-crimea/

 

All pre-referendum polls, going back 20 years, showed that Crimeans wanted to rejoin Russia. Crimea wasn't even functionally a part of Ukraine since 1991, having become an autonomous region since 1991, and having declared its independence from Ukraine twice already. Also, the population of Crimea has been predominantly ethnic Russia since the start of the 20th century. There was never a chance that Crimeans would vote for anything other than to rejoin Russia, and all the places you get your British propaganda from knew it, even while they were preparing and delivering their propaganda claiming the opposite to you.

 

History of Crimea's demographics, showing that ethnic Russians have been the predominant people of the territory through the 20th century

LA Times, 1994: Crimea OKs Constitution Declaring Its Independence From Ukraine

NY Times, 1994: Separatist Winning Crimea Presidency

The Guardian: Crimea goes to the polls with landslide expected for union with Russia

A multi-year collection of pre-referendum poll data: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_status_referendum,_2014#Polling

Bloomberg: One Year Later, Crimeans Prefer Russia

 

 

A big question is, why are you, while being aligned with what is completely propaganda, accusing the genuine truth of being propaganda, despite that you must surely know for yourself that you don't know the truth of what you claim, since you couldn't know it, since what you claim isn't the truth, and is opposite of the truth.

 

Crimeans voted 94% in favour of leaving Ukraine and rejoining the USSR in 1991... almost exactly the number who voted in favour of rejoining Russia in 2014. Obviously, the will of the people has been set for a long time.

 

So, exactly which part of the only veritable history of humanity on Earth is it that you find to be "Russian propaganda"?

Its entirely Russian propaganda as the native population of Crimea was predominantly removed - by the Soviets during the cold war. These being the Tatars. In the 20th Century. At the end of WW II.

 

Then the area was flooded with Russians and indeed Russia has been dominating the 'near abroad' or attempting to dominate them - increasingly.

 

 

I'll not shift my position on this. Russia's government under Putin is trying to throw its weight around. Including within Western countries. Indeed murdered a Russian exhile in my country the UK using radioactive polonium. Just like the KGB used a Ricin tipped umbrella to murder former Soviet critic in my country during the cold war.

 

This is part of a pattern for Putin's Russia. Now they've commandeed the patron saint of Ukraine. Saint Vladimir claiming it entirely for Russia.

 

Its going to find that Western countries are not going to continue to stand for cyber attacks or interference from proxy non-state actors ... or 'proxies'.

 

Simple as that.

 

I see RT broadcasts in the UK. They're ridiculous. Yet the Russian Government seems to think most people believe the stories on there.

 

The Russian Government can stick its cyber attacks where the sun doesn't shine and if it continues them it'll find Western Governments responding in kind.

[RagnarokDel]

16 minutes ago, tlink said:

but would that hold anonymity? 

each citizen is assigned, possibly at birth, an "address" that is not identifiable directly by peers. Now that address would be somewhere but only accessible by the chief electoral officer's bureau in case of an investigation. The people working the ballots wouldnt even need your name, they would only need to match your address to the one in their ballot list. And the best part of it is that by having a "blockchain explorer", you could literally see what you address's vote was assigned to, giving you the opportunity to file a complaint should it not be accurate.

[tlink]

46 minutes ago, RagnarokDel said:

each citizen is assigned, possibly at birth, an "address" that is not identifiable directly by peers. Now that address would be somewhere but only accessible by the chief electoral officer's bureau in case of an investigation. The people working the ballots wouldnt even need your name, they would only need to match your address to the one in their ballot list. And the best part of it is that by having a "blockchain explorer", you could literally see what you address's vote was assigned to, giving you the opportunity to file a complaint should it not be accurate.

but that should never be allowed, people from the government shouldn't be allowed to see who voted what, no matter the circumstances.