Euclideon Interviews and new video (Holoverse, Unlimited Detail tech, Games...)

[EUD]

Euclideon is company with Unlimited Detail graphics that they licence and incorporate in their Geoverse Massive Data Manager, hologram rooms, web point cloud streaming and other implementations. 

 

http://www.euclideon.com/

http://holoverse.com.au/

 

 Recently they came out with video where Bruce Dell, the CEO of Euclideon and the inventor of Unlimited Detail point clould rendering technology  is clarifying and showcasing their tech and their Hologram Entertainment centre. 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uYkbXlgUCw

"computers have limits as to how many polygons they can process on screen at once.. so as you are moving around computer causes things to pop up as you get closer to them and these are the problems that come with  the using polygon system. If we are talking about graphics being technically good, then building things out of unlimited numbers little atoms solves all of theese problems. ..."

 

 

Furthermore, we got an interview with Ryan Shrout from PC Persepective....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8OH2Ekyty4
The interview is about Holoverse and hologram rooms, the tech behind it... even demonstration of animation. Recommend you watch it.

"we now got the largest number of Virtual Reality caves, about 120 VR caves arond the world... science centres, universities, we opened first Hologram Room Entertainment centre where people are going to VR caves."

 

 

... and 4 page interview with John Gatt from [H]ard|OCP that is now employed at Euclideon.

It spans from describing the company, holoverse, the games, the tech behind it and the tech powering it so it should be really interesting read for everyone, especially people who are interested what it takes it to run - the hardware.  

 

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2016/09/12/bruce_dell_euclideon_holoverse_interview#.V9kO2NSLRkg

"Five years ago I went to Euclideon’s offices in Queensland to meet with Bruce Dell for an interview on HardOCP. In that visit I saw the nascent stages of the Holoverse technology that is now featured in an impressive entertainment center. Bruce invited me to go and experience it a few weeks ago. It blew my mind. The holograms are there in front of you, walking around you. When you compare it to a HTC Vive experience the biggest difference is the fact that fish are swimming around your hands; it’s your hand that you reach out to touch the lion as it walks past you. They seem to make the holograms not only appear but in some cases seem perfectly solid. The wall, for instance, is extremely dense. You cannot see through it. When you take the first steps to walk through it, it’s a surreal experience."

 

Snippet from an interview:

 "

Q1: Bruce, what can you tell us about your hologram rooms?

A: A hologram room makes objects appear all around you that are not real. They look like they’re made of light and are a tiny bit see-through. The real walls appear to vanish, so it looks like you are outside in a wide open space. It’s a bit like the holograms that have been seen in science fiction for the last 30 years.

 

Q2: How big is a hologram room?

A: 5 metres by 3.5 metres big (15 feet by 10 feet), but size doesn’t matter once you are inside. You wear a special belt that monitors your steps and multiplies them. So if you take one step in the real world it equals 4 steps in the hologram world. This makes the room seem to be about 4 times bigger than it really is

.

Q3: Where can people try this technology?

A: We just opened the world’s first hologram entertainment centre in Australia, it has 40 hologram rooms. You can play games, go to Africa, jump down holes, or fly through the sky. We are in the process of arranging a lot more of these hologram centres to open around the world.

...

"

Read the whole 3 page interview here

///

The tech is really exciting and removes some of the limits we have with polygon system. Makes gaming more affordable, better and makes VR much easier to render with normal PC.

 

 

 

[TOMPPIX]

guys... i don't think this technology is just full of lies, like everyone believes it is.

[Ashaira]

Just now, TOMPPIX said:

guys... i don't think this technology is just full of lies, like everyone believes it is.

it's not. ever since the beginning they showed what they had but people fantasized and missunderstood what they had so people screamed fake. they never said it was perfect and they said they would look for ways to fix what they were missing (ex animations). It's by no means mainstream market ready but it is progressing steadily. Personally i am looking forward to the day that this approaches a beta stage so to speak.

[JAKEBAB]

Wow i think they found someone with an even more annoying voice than Jony Ive.

[Bhav]

Look, they claimed that this technology could be rendered in real time via software by simply being read off either a HDD or USB disk on any PC specifications.

 

They never initially stated that it would only be a streamed, thus pre rendered via servers, as is the solution they are now offering.

 

As such, while the technology exists in its current streamed format, it is thus far a lie that they stated that it would be available on any PC through software rendering.

 

Its funny how badly No Mans Sky got ripped apart for being over hyped and not delivering on its promises, yet a technology which has spent so long in the making still hasnt been delivered on a single of its promises.

 

If were just going to stream the graphics, you know we could already be doing that with Pixar Studio quality graphics with no need whatsoever for a GPU, oh, and therin was another promise of this technology that still hasnt been delivered - 'Unlimited detail without needing a GPU'.

 

Also they always claimed that 'LOLZ POLYGONZ ARE SOO BAD AND RAPED US IN DARK ALLEYWAYZ WHEN WE WERE CHILDRENZ, POLYGONZ SUXXORZ FOR GRAFFIKZ, INSTEADZ OUR GRAFFIKZ R SO MUCH BETTER WITHOUT POLYGONZ AND ANNLIMITED POINT CLAUDE DAUGHTER INSTEADZ'.

 

Yet they still have not delivered on ANY of their original claims. They have not yet even demoed a sufficient working alternative to 3D polygon graphics that can be rendered in software off the HDD. In fact, this streamed and prerendered bullshitty alternative only seems to prove that yes they were lying all along, and they will never be able to deliver REALTIME ANNLIMITED POINT CLAUDE DAUGHTER graphics as a software rendered alternative to 3D polygon graphics because such a thing, as every critic has ever stated about this, it literally impossible.

[Ashaira]

1 hour ago, Bhav said:

 

they demoed a scene loading in seconds from an old hp laptop. what the f more do you want?

[Bhav]

9 minutes ago, Ashaira said:

they demoed a scene loading in seconds from an old hp laptop. what the f more do you want?

A dwmo that I can f download and actually run on my computer without streaming, or just being a video file.

 

And how do I know the scene you mentioned also wasnt streamed?

[Ashaira]

Just now, Bhav said:

A dwmo that I can f download and actually run on my computer.

 

And how do I know the scene you mentioned also wasnt streamed?

get a ticket and go to their offices. since nothing else will convince you

[Bhav]

1 minute ago, Ashaira said:

get a ticket and go to their offices. since nothing else will convince you

How is asking for a downloadable demo that demonstrates what theyve been promising too much, or too hard to do after all this time? 

[Bhav]

Also note that Euclideon are deleting any comments simply pointing out that their video is showing streamed pre rendered footage and that they still dont have any real time demos.

 

Why would they do that if they havnt been lying?

 

The people falling for the hype on their video comments generally admit to not knowing anything about hardware, thus it isnt that hard to impress people who dont know the difference between streamed crap and hardware accelerated.

[suicidalfranco]

another day, another update, still no demo, carry on

[Doobeedoo]

It really does look interesting and I'd like to try it
 

[EUD]

17 hours ago, Bhav said:

Why would they do that if they havnt been lying?

Maybe you are the one lying, have you thought of that?

 

Instead of spitting out random uninformed comments, you could ask me.

 

What would you like to know?

 

[suicidalfranco]

3 hours ago, EUD said:

Maybe you are the one lying, have you thought of that?

 

Instead of spitting out random uninformed comments, you could ask me.

 

What would you like to know?

 

I'll ask for him: where's the demo? where's the demo that i can install on my PC and not stream on my browser? If you have it please share it on dropbox cause i don't want to create a new email just for this

[Bhav]

3 hours ago, EUD said:

Maybe you are the one lying, have you thought of that?

 

Instead of spitting out random uninformed comments, you could ask me.

 

What would you like to know?

 

Can you explain how I am lying by simply asking for a downloadable demo?

 

Why are you such a fan of Euclideon, maybe youre working for them?

[crystal6tak]

Also waiting for the downloadable demo.

 

Last time I checked, the only demo they had was on the web: http://udserver.euclideon.com/demo/html5_viewer.html

 

Which wasn't any more impressive than what Potree achieved: http://potree.org/wp/demo/

[EUD]

On 15. 9. 2016 at 2:12 PM, crystal6tak said:

Also waiting for the downloadable demo.

 

Last time I checked, the only demo they had was on the web: http://udserver.euclideon.com/demo/html5_viewer.html

 

Which wasn't any more impressive than what Potree achieved: http://potree.org/wp/demo/

potree is not streamed 

 

this is where it shows you guys only repeat what other people say and do not even have basic knowledge or know basic terms and definitions of words

 

the udweb server is getting hammered.   

How about ask a question instead of claiming.

On 15. 9. 2016 at 1:11 PM, Bhav said:

Can you explain how I am lying by simply asking for a downloadable demo?

 

Why are you such a fan of Euclideon, maybe youre working for them?

I am fan of Euclideon because i love tech, i love science, new discoveries, gaming... and i know they are real. And you only need internet access to know that. And i knew they are real in 2013 100% and I follow every leak about them, every news, i watch videos multiple times.

 

If there was a tech that would make games look like if you look outside of window right now... wouldnt you be excited? More excited that for the next GEETEEEX 9060, more excited than the next Bafflefield Modline, more excited than the next Smartphone 8.2S with improved glue on apple sticker...

 

I dont work for them, they got John Gatt employed for contact with public and you can email him, but dont bloody write him useless emails similar to posts above good lord. better ask me here, i am not insider but i have at least know the basics many people dont. 

[ShadowCaptain]

On 14/09/2016 at 0:28 PM, JAKEBAB said:

Wow i think they found someone with an even more annoying voice than Jony Ive.

 

What Jony Ives voice is amazing

[cluelessgenius]

meh sounds interesting but that elephant statue video is floating around thee web for years now. im not saying it works or doesnt but until i see it hitting the shelf i just dont believe it ever will. same with star citizen for example i would love to play it but how long are they gonna stretch the alpha/beta/whatever. 

tl;dr; until it releases it doesnt exist to me

[Nano0806]

1 hour ago, EUD said:

better ask me here, i am not insider but i have at least know the basics many people dont

ok, i am actually, legit interested in how this technology works. I am a SW developer and i find this very very exciting and i want to know about it's "guts". I started oing a bit of research and to some degree i can undestand how this technology works but i want more. Any info u have i'll be pleased do have it.

 

And I really believe in this guys. I always thought and felt deep in my heart/mind that there has to be another way of creating computer graphics. We project it on 2D, flat surfaces. There is sooo much work in the grahics pipeline, everything is created in 3D, computed in 3D only to be projected on a flat surface through a viewport in the end. There i see wasted computation

[crystal6tak]

2 hours ago, EUD said:

potree is not streamed 

 

this is where it shows you guys only repeat what other people say and do not even have basic knowledge or know basic terms and definitions of words

....streamed? As in??!?!

 

Data being streamed? Or video stream? Not entirely sure which one you refer to.

 

If you're talking about data being streamed, then potree is definitely streamed. Easy to test, load a demo, cut off internet connection, if the demo stops loading, the data is streamed.

 

If you're talking about video being streamed, then that's even more sad. As we can't judge just what type of hardware is being used to render all those voxels. Meaning it'll be pointless showing a demo on a potato laptop, as the actual rendering is done on a super computer somewhere in their racks.

 

2 hours ago, EUD said:

If there was a tech that would make games look like if you look outside of window right now... wouldnt you be excited? More excited that for the next GEETEEEX 9060, more excited than the next Bafflefield Modline, more excited than the next Smartphone 8.2S with improved glue on apple sticker...

Then you shouldn't be excited by this technology. It's fundamentally not viable in games due to one simple issue, lighting. (Also, you should check out ray tracing, but first, about issues with this euclideon tech)

 

1.) Lighting seems to be an issue with these voxel based rendering. The only reason these RL (real life) demo they showed looked good is because the lighting is done in RL (aka, the sun). They're using a massive scanner to scan the actual RL environment.

 

In games, where lighting needs to be built upon the computer generated models/voxels, euclideon dissapoints. Haven't you noticed all of the "in-game" demo looked like clay? Or simply lack any form of shadows? And logically, it makes sense polygon lighting is way more efficient in lighting than voxel lighting. (e.g. pulling numbers out of my ass here, what's better, calculating lighting on 1000 polygons? or 10,000 voxels?)

 

2.) Dynamic lighting (similar to just lighting) seems basically dumb at this point. Even if they managed to get some form of lighting done, and basically pre-baked all the lighting into the voxels, dynamic lighting would be another issue. Not everyone owns a super computer to do these massive calculations for lighting the voxels in real time.

 

3.) In-game usage. Models that has to be constantly updated for lighting (e.g. anything that moves really), will lack (or have a very simplified form) of lighting compared to using a polygon based model. So why not just use them in static objects then? Like the massive mountain in the background? Well, you can, but that means you can't have any game mechanic where lighting in general changes (like the time of day, you can't have day and night cycle since the mountain will be constantly lit).

 

So, about ray tracing, I feel like THAT'S where the future of games lies upon.

This one is done on an individual's PC, not sure of the specs. (I assume a Titan, as that's what he had on previous videos) (They got a dancing robot at 3:55)

And there's also this one, where OTOY (the company of brigade) used "80 amazon GPUs" to make this real time demo:

 

[Kinda Bottlenecked]

3 hours ago, EUD said:

i am not insider but i have at least know the basics many people dont. 

 

Enlighten us. In text please.

[Kamil]

I don't know why people get so salty about this. There are huge arguments over it being a "scam" or a "revolution", and right now it's basically neither. Even if it's not real, it's only a scam if they start asking for money. Even if it is real, it's not a revolution until it's complete. If they start a kickstarter and still can't prove that it's superior on identical hardware then don't fund it, if they try to prove it but it turns out to be fake then it's a scam; for now it's a company that made a video and posted it for free online. Even if it's literally 100% fake and they've done nothing it's still not a scam and there's no reason to be mad about it.

[EUD]

7 hours ago, Nano0806 said:

ok, i am actually, legit interested in how this technology works. I am a SW developer and i find this very very exciting and i want to know about it's "guts". I started oing a bit of research and to some degree i can undestand how this technology works but i want more. Any info u have i'll be pleased do have it.

 

And I really believe in this guys. I always thought and felt deep in my heart/mind that there has to be another way of creating computer graphics. We project it on 2D, flat surfaces. There is sooo much work in the grahics pipeline, everything is created in 3D, computed in 3D only to be projected on a flat surface through a viewport in the end. There i see wasted computation

 

 

This brilliant guy, David Eriksson claims he worked on point cloud visual SW, and even calls it unlimited detail.

https://people.cam.cornell.edu/~dme65/cv.pdf

 

Read his thesis here, but you probably can find other, he even has yutub video out and its description " Visualization software written in OPENGL for point clouds having billions of points. The software runs on a standard PC and uses no more than 50 MB of RAM and doesn't allocate more than a few 100 MB on the graphics card. The screen resolution was set to 1920x1080. The software reads points directly from the hard disk drive to the GPU when needed.

The camera was moved using the mouse which is why some movements seem non-smooth, but looking at the FPS there is no drop anywhere. "

From his LInkedIn " I worked on visualization of large point clouds and I designed a visualization software that is capable of rendering 50+ FPS for point clouds having billions of points. My method uses less than 50 MB of RAM and reads points directly from the hard disk drive to the GPU when needed. Similar frame rates were seen when storing the point cloud data on a USB drive connected to a USB 2.0 port. All tests were carried out on a pretty mediocre graphics card with no more than 1 GB of memory. The software runs on only one thread with a low CPU load making it suitable to run in the background visualizing the results from a simulation. 

A newly designed search algorithm makes it possible to do only a few million draws per frame (at the resolution 1920x1080) and very few reads from the hard drive are necessary for each frame. This makes this new method significantly better than many existing visualization softwares where points are read from the hard disk drive first when the user stops moving the camera in order to keep a high FPS. My method will always render a perfect frame no matter how fast the camera is moving since it knows exactly what points are visible at each frame. "

 

 

Sounds familiar ?  Sounds to me like Euclideons hehe.

 

I would love to hear from you what you think about it. You have knowledge, or at least some clue to understand and take in the papers.

 

Cheers and have fun reading 

[EUD]

6 hours ago, crystal6tak said:

....streamed? As in??!?!

 

Data being streamed? Or video stream? Not entirely sure which one you refer to.

 

If you're talking about data being streamed, then potree is definitely streamed. Easy to test, load a demo, cut off internet connection, if the demo stops loading, the data is streamed.

 

If you're talking about video being streamed, then that's even more sad. As we can't judge just what type of hardware is being used to render all those voxels. Meaning it'll be pointless showing a demo on a potato laptop, as the actual rendering is done on a super computer somewhere in their racks.

 

Then you shouldn't be excited by this technology. It's fundamentally not viable in games due to one simple issue, lighting. (Also, you should check out ray tracing, but first, about issues with this euclideon tech)

 

1.) Lighting seems to be an issue with these voxel based rendering. The only reason these RL (real life) demo they showed looked good is because the lighting is done in RL (aka, the sun). They're using a massive scanner to scan the actual RL environment.

 

In games, where lighting needs to be built upon the computer generated models/voxels, euclideon dissapoints. Haven't you noticed all of the "in-game" demo looked like clay? Or simply lack any form of shadows? And logically, it makes sense polygon lighting is way more efficient in lighting than voxel lighting. (e.g. pulling numbers out of my ass here, what's better, calculating lighting on 1000 polygons? or 10,000 voxels?)

 

2.) Dynamic lighting (similar to just lighting) seems basically dumb at this point. Even if they managed to get some form of lighting done, and basically pre-baked all the lighting into the voxels, dynamic lighting would be another issue. Not everyone owns a super computer to do these massive calculations for lighting the voxels in real time.

 

3.) In-game usage. Models that has to be constantly updated for lighting (e.g. anything that moves really), will lack (or have a very simplified form) of lighting compared to using a polygon based model. So why not just use them in static objects then? Like the massive mountain in the background? Well, you can, but that means you can't have any game mechanic where lighting in general changes (like the time of day, you can't have day and night cycle since the mountain will be constantly lit).

 

So, about ray tracing, I feel like THAT'S where the future of games lies upon.

This one is done on an individual's PC, not sure of the specs. (I assume a Titan, as that's what he had on previous videos) (They got a dancing robot at 3:55)

And there's also this one, where OTOY (the company of brigade) used "80 amazon GPUs" to make this real time demo:

 

Data, the points being streamed. Potree is not streamed, i talked to dev on youtube. Its just intended for web viewing. Its cool, useful, nice but not UD

Ray tracing is too taxing.

 

@Well, you can, but that means you can't have any game mechanic where lighting in general changes (like the time of day, you can't have day and night cycle since the mountain will be constantly lit).

 

lol what bro, i think you read somewhere that they have prebaked lighting, and now you are confusing everything.