The New Moto Z doesn't have a 3.5mm headphone jack - USB-C to headphone adapter instead

[MrRavens]

1 minute ago, ShadowCaptain said:

then Apple are like

FUCK YOU ALL 200k

lmfao exacty!

[ShadowCaptain]

3 minutes ago, LtRavens said:

lmfao exacty!

it used to be Apple would release things, and people would follow (or Apple would take a year and then release a better version of something existing)

but lately, companies have been copying other companies based on rumours!, its crazy! All of them are trying the shotgun approach of just trying everything and seeing what works later

[MrRavens]

4 minutes ago, ShadowCaptain said:

it used to be Apple would release things, and people would follow (or Apple would take a year and then release a better version of something existing)

but lately, companies have been copying other companies based on rumours!, its crazy! All of them are trying the shotgun approach of just trying everything and seeing what works later

Very true, a lot more of an aggressive approach. Maybe they really want to start getting more market share. So to do so, they need to make a few gambles and assume the rumors are true and trust "Apple knows best". I mean in a sense this could be a good thing, seeing phone makers want to push themselves and move forward to be toe-to-toe with giants. But idk man. Er body wants to be Apple, dem profit margins look mighty fine from down here.

[Misanthrope]

12 minutes ago, ShadowCaptain said:

All of them are trying the shotgun approach of just trying everything and seeing what works later

Wonder how long until the homer then

[dtaflorida]

So much audiophile justification that Bluetooth sounds bad. Where do you use your mobile that great sound is more a factor of the headphones rather than the environment? When I'm home I'm sure not listening to music on my phone. When I'm on the street/driving/working, there's so many sources of noise, some of which I need to hear over and above whatever music is coming form my phone. The audio quality difference of bluetooth vs wired when factored into the environment most people will be using a mobile pretty much makes that a moot point.

[cesrai]

I have no idea why people saying that Apple has the influence and started this trend, it's not like xiaomi didn't make a phone without a 3.5 mm jack right ? and it's not like phones take months if not years in development ?

[ionbasa]

9 hours ago, Dabombinable said:

3 words: Adaptors add bulk.

Yes, for now. If the tech industry actually pushes this forward, it won't be that way for soon though. Just look at new laptops. Most of them moved from 2x 3.5mm jacks, to 4 pole 3.5mm combo jacks. It wouldn't be inconceivable that the 4 pole combo jack will start to disappear as well on some of our devices.

 

If that does happen, then new headphones will just have the DAC built in. I think we're at a point where we're seeing various I/O interfaces being assimilated into 1 or two standards, reducing the many different types of ports we need to use.

In specific, USB type C and Thunderbolt are the ones doing the consolidation of our interfaces. Nothing wrong with that. Yes, there will be a period of needing to use adapters and whatnot, but as we move forward into the future, I don't see any reason why this wouldn't work if it becomes a de facto standard across various manufacturers.

[LAwLz]

18 hours ago, Blade of Grass said:

How has Apple started a trend? Which one of their phones came without a 3.5mm jack? 

Are you new to tech forums? Everyone copies Apple, even when they are doing something Apple hasn't done/won't do.

18 hours ago, ionbasa said:

This might be a step in the right direction. On my old Samsung Galaxya and my HTC HD2 the headphone port died on both, due to the number of insertions and the contact pads wiggling around in the socket. This eliminates that problem. 

I have never had a 3.5mm jack die on me. I wonder how common this problem is.

 

18 hours ago, ionbasa said:

Yes, we now need DACs in our headphones, or in an adapter. But that ultimately gives us a little bit of extra sound 'quality' as the onboard phone DAC is no longer used and better quality DACs can be used. Omitting the 3.5mm port also gives manufacturers more space for increasing battery sizes (potentially).

The DACs in phones are pretty much as good as you'll get these days, especially in some phones like the Galaxy S6 which used a Wolfson chip. Word on the street is that the DAC in the Galaxy S7 is based on a Wolfson/Cirrus Logic DAC as well.

You will most likely end up with the same or worse audio quality by putting the DAC in the headphones instead of the phone, so I really don't think that is a benefit.

18 hours ago, ionbasa said:

Some people may cry foul, because the cellphone still needs an DAC/ADC combo for driving the speakers and mic inputs. But, the plus side of omitting 1 DAC output on an multi-chip package (ie: slit output,/ multiple input combo DACs and ADC) is that it could potentially be used to deliver higher bandwidth to the speaker, or higher bandwidth to the mic inputs as 1 I/O process can be used elsewhere. Given how popular HD Calling and VoLTE is becoming, more bandwidth for crystal clear calls at the hardware level would be a benefit to everyone.

Bandwidth inside the DAC is by no means a bottleneck today. We already have more than enough for even VoLTE and HD calling. Do you know how low quality VoLTE really is? It's not even 24Kbps... Even my Galaxy S2 could handle ~1000Kbps FLAC* with ease. Higher bandwidth is not needed, and will not make a difference.

 

*It might be worth noting that it is not the DAC doing the decoding of the FLAC file. I don't know what the final bandwidth of the data going though the DAC is. It might be more than 1000Kbps.

 

 

17 hours ago, Belgarathian said:

Bluetooth APTX is pretty good, and chances are the AMP/DAC in your phone is shit too. Audio over USB-C in the long run is a much better idea, but that only pans out if the headphones you buy aren't $4.99 from WalMart. 

How is it better in the long run?

 

The problem with aptX is that both of the source and sink has to support it. If one of them doesn't you get bumped down to the standard A2DP which is not exactly great (especially not if you end up using SBC which is actually far worse than even MP3). Another problem is that the audio will most likely end up being transcoded from one lossy format (like MP3 or AAC) into another (aptX, SBC or whatever your bluetooth devices use).

 

12 hours ago, ionbasa said:

And regarding your concern of higher prices for adapters and headphones/headsets. The cost of removing the 3.5mm jack from a smartphone would hypothetically offset the cost needed to put a dual channel DAC in our peripherals. DACs aren't that expensive anyway.

DACs aren't expensive, but they are hell of a more expensive than a 3.5mm headphone jack. It's probably something along the lines of 2 dollars vs 20 cent.

[Kimmers]

13 hours ago, dizmo said:

 

Haha, I highly doubt that Apple's leaked rumors at all affected the design of this device. It had likely been in development lonnnnnng before those rumors spread.

Except you are forgetting the fact that competitors often get ahold of information much earlier than when the public receives 'leaked information'.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the development of this product was due to Apple.

[SurvivorNVL]

Really, 3.5mm to USB-C as a transition isn't all that bad.  From what I understand the quality of the sound is more 'clear' from what some have said.  I'm wondering if they could have native DSD.  I have to imagine as well that durability, tolerance & reliability should be equal between USB-C and 3.5mm.

[Mr.Meerkat]

This is a situation where we chose the wrong standard...2.5mm was the standard to have gone with...it's 1mm smaller compared to 3.5mm jacks which allows apple and co to shave off that 1mm they really wanted to  

[LAwLz]

12 minutes ago, Kimmers said:

Except you are forgetting the fact that competitors often get ahold of information much earlier than when the public receives 'leaked information'.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the development of this product was due to Apple.

Did you know that companies such as Intel has already publicly said that they think moving from 3.5mm to USB type-C is to be encouraged?

It's not like it was just rumors of Apple planning to do it, and then everyone just jumped onboard the hype train. I am fairly sure we got phones already on the market without 3.5mm headphone jacks.

 

The truth is that not everything is a copy of Apple. A lot of times major players in the industry (including but not limited to Apple) are all moving towards the same goal independently. It's pretty silly to always assume that people are reacting to Apple, and not assume that it is instead the more logical "more than 1 company had the same idea at the same time, because of a new technology being released". The second one is far more likely in plenty of cases where people credit Apple for "leading the pack". It especially makes sense when other companies released products with the new technology/trend before Apple does.

[Doobeedoo]

Can't understand so much hate toward new standard really. Like somehow magically on your phone port would change to USB-C over night and your shitty earbuds would not fit. Really? 

[LAwLz]

4 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

Can't understand so much hate toward new standard really. Like somehow magically on your phone port would change to USB-C over night and your shitty earbuds would not fit. Really? 

Because it is a step in the wrong direction, and there is a real possibility that it will be pushed onto consumers unless we speak up. It might not be on my current phone, but in 2-3 generations I might not have a choice.

[Doobeedoo]

3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Because it is a step in the wrong direction, and there is a real possibility that it will be pushed onto consumers unless we speak up. It might not be on my current phone, but in 2-3 generations I might not have a choice.

What exactly is wrong with it though? Isn't it overall better than old one which is the only old analog thingy left if I'm not wrong? 
Also, so let's say we get a new smartphone later on then, and all of them are with new connector, new earbuds will be too? Maybe even add two connectors to listen to music at the same time while phone is charging? Or maybe it won't need it cause wireless charging whatever.

[Dabombinable]

8 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

What exactly is wrong with it though? Isn't it overall better than old one which is the only old analog thingy left if I'm not wrong? 
Also, so let's say we get a new smartphone later on then, and all of them are with new connector, new earbuds will be too? Maybe even add two connectors to listen to music at the same time while phone is charging? Or maybe it won't need it cause wireless charging whatever.

Analogue audio connectors and therefore hadphones are needed as our ears are analogue. Which is why every single device with an audio jack has a DAC. Even my CD ROM drives from 1995 (though its my 1998 CD RW drives with the metal audio jacks that have the best DAC out of my devices/components).

[LAwLz]

54 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

What exactly is wrong with it though? Isn't it overall better than old one which is the only old analog thingy left if I'm not wrong? 
Also, so let's say we get a new smartphone later on then, and all of them are with new connector, new earbuds will be too? Maybe even add two connectors to listen to music at the same time while phone is charging? Or maybe it won't need it cause wireless charging whatever.

What is wrong with it? Lots of things are wrong with it. I have made a list of benefits and drawbacks.

You're right that it's one of the few analog things left, but audio is inherently analog so this does not really solve anything.

 

Let's look at at the benefits and drawbacks.

On 4/28/2016 at 9:32 PM, LAwLz said:

So let's be completely unbiased here.

 

Benefits:

• Takes up less space in the phone/laptop/whatever.
• Consistency. One pair of headphones will sound the same no matter which phone you plug them into.
• No interference. It's digital so it either works perfectly, or not at all.
• Might enable extra functionality in the future (the only thing I can think of would be stereo mics but who knows).

 

Drawbacks:

• Breaks compatibility. You will need an adapter (which will need to be an active adapter, which will reduce quality) if you want to use your current headphones.
• Cost will increase since you now need a DAC/amp in each pair of headphones, plus the one inside your phone, instead of just having one in your phone. So cheap headphones/earbuds might be more expensive AND sound worse than they currently do. This also means there are more things that might break.
• Driver issues. Each pair of headphones will now need a driver to be installed, and that driver might not exist for certain platforms (Apple headphones no longer works on Android phones and vice versa). Drivers can also be buggy/outdated. Imagine buying a pair of 1000 dollar headphones back in 2005 and they worked great in Windows XP, but the manufacturer didn't make any drivers for Vista (maybe they went bankrupt) and above so now they they are just a 1000 dollar paperweight.
• Harder to plug in and position (going from circular to square).
• Possibility of DRM being introduced (again, Apple headphones only working on Apple devices, Samsung headphones only working on Samsung devices etc, or even things like certain songs only working with certain headphones, like a new Dr Dre album only working with Beats headphones for example).
• If your cable breaks slightly then you will not get any sound at all. The cable for my K702 broke fairly recently but I was managed to continue using them by holding the cable in a certain position with some tape. That would most likely not work with a digital connector.
• It takes up more space inside the peripheral. It will not be any issue for headphones, but for things like earbuds it might become a (small) problem. There are really small DACs which weigh next to nothing so it is not a big issue, but it is a drawback.

 

Unknowns or other things to think about:

• Which one is more durable?
• Which one uses more power?
• Headphones might share the connector you use for charging and file transfers (so you might not be able to listen to music and charge/transfer files at the same time). This is not inherently an issue of USB type C, but it is something I can see lots of phone manufacturers doing. It is less of an issue on desktops and laptops though.

 

Did I miss anything? I don't think it makes sense going to USB-C for audio. The benefits are very, very small compared to the drawbacks.

 

[Doobeedoo]

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

What is wrong with it? Lots of things are wrong with it. I have made a list of benefits and drawbacks.

You're right that it's one of the few analog things left, but audio is inherently analog so this does not really solve anything.

 

Let's look at at the benefits and drawbacks.

 

Hmm how much cost would increase cause of DAC actually?

Why would there be need for drivers necessarily? Should be driver independent.

DRM would suck though.

 

From all mentioned only these would be my concerns really. So if increase cost wouldn't matter much, no drivers struggle, specially no DRM then that's great.

 

As far as compatibility, using adapters would be stupid and if this new connector would be used in next couple of years as standard I don't see a switch problem. People that buy cheap will just buy another cheap earbuds for example, no biggy. Those that tend to buy more expensive ones would know that new connector would be on the way anyway, so they'd prepare, money wise I guess. Possibly adapter for home, if needed, no on phone though. I don't have $1000 dollar headphones so can't relate there haha.

 

But whatever major issues there may be, I'm sure they would need to rectify all the defects new connector brings to make it a new long-term standard.

 

 

[LAwLz]

1 minute ago, Doobeedoo said:

Hmm how much cost would increase cause of DAC actually?

Very hard to say. I don't have any good numbers. My guess is that a typical DAC like the one in a smartphone is in the ~1-2 dollar range. On top of that it will add quite a bit of complexity to the design. It will probably not be a big deal for ~100 dollar earbuds and headphones, but it might make a big difference on cheaper stuff.

 

4 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

Why would there be need for drivers necessarily? Should be driver independent.

All USB devices need drivers. It's just that OSes very often have generic drivers for the most common types of hardware. For example a generic driver for keyboards, one for mice, one for USB audio and so on. The thing is that with the rise of "ecosystems", vendor locking has gotten more and more serious. Apple doesn't even allow third party lighting cables to work without first getting approved by them (they use an authentication chip to do this). Hell, Apple didn't even want to follow the standard for audio controls on their headset. If it was 10 years ago I would trust companies to include generic drivers, but these days I am not so sure.

Also, for things like the additional functionality (one of the benefits), generic drivers would most likely not work. It's the same as with keyboards. You can type on them with the generic drivers, but if you want things like control over lighting, or macro buttons then you need custom drivers for that particular keyboard.

So one of the few benefits will bring with it potential driver issues.

 

9 minutes ago, Doobeedoo said:

But whatever major issues there may be, I'm sure they would need to rectify all the defects new connector brings to make it a new long-term standard.

But that's the thing though... Why go though all the hassle of "fixing" potentially huge issues to make USB type C the new standard, when our current solution is pretty much perfect? Don't fix what ain't broken.

[Doobeedoo]

21 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Very hard to say. I don't have any good numbers. My guess is that a typical DAC like the one in a smartphone is in the ~1-2 dollar range. On top of that it will add quite a bit of complexity to the design. It will probably not be a big deal for ~100 dollar earbuds and headphones, but it might make a big difference on cheaper stuff.

 

All USB devices need drivers. It's just that OSes very often have generic drivers for the most common types of hardware. For example a generic driver for keyboards, one for mice, one for USB audio and so on. The thing is that with the rise of "ecosystems", vendor locking has gotten more and more serious. Apple doesn't even allow third party lighting cables to work without first getting approved by them (they use an authentication chip to do this). Hell, Apple didn't even want to follow the standard for audio controls on their headset. If it was 10 years ago I would trust companies to include generic drivers, but these days I am not so sure.

Also, for things like the additional functionality (one of the benefits), generic drivers would most likely not work. It's the same as with keyboards. You can type on them with the generic drivers, but if you want things like control over lighting, or macro buttons then you need custom drivers for that particular keyboard.

So one of the few benefits will bring with it potential driver issues.

 

But that's the thing though... Why go though all the hassle of "fixing" potentially huge issues to make USB type C the new standard, when our current solution is pretty much perfect? Don't fix what ain't broken.

Vendor locking sucks indeed.

Though on my keyboard I can make macro and control lighting without it's software. Huehue :3

 

They want to make phones thinner and 3.5mm jack takes more space. I know, stupid reason. But there are lists about other reasons too. Didn't dig through it too much.

It ain't broken I agree, though everything old gets replaced. They want to present new connector with new extra features and options etc. 

But yeah hope we get some more info about this.

P.S.

3.5mm jack does go deep in phone though :3

[Carde]

Can we please just get phones with basic thinks like a 35mm audio jack, decent battery and such?

 

What if I need to charge my phone and want to listen to my music?

 

 

[Trixanity]

I suppose they could design a sort of modular USB-C cable where you could have stacked cables meaning you could insert your charging cable into your phone and then insert your headphone cable into the back of the charging cable and the signal would be transfered through (somehow). 

I doubt that more than one USB-C port will ever become a standard in a phone.

 

With that being said, I dislike being without a 3.5mm jack. I mean the connector might be bulky by today's standards but it's currently the best solution. I don't feel like the USB-C standard is mature enough or a superior solution for that matter.

[Belgarathian]

15 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Are you new to tech forums? Everyone copies Apple, even when they are doing something Apple hasn't done/won't do.

 

I have never had a 3.5mm jack die on me. I wonder how common this problem is.

 

The DACs in phones are pretty much as good as you'll get these days, especially in some phones like the Galaxy S6 which used a Wolfson chip. Word on the street is that the DAC in the Galaxy S7 is based on a Wolfson/Cirrus Logic DAC as well.

You will most likely end up with the same or worse audio quality by putting the DAC in the headphones instead of the phone, so I really don't think that is a benefit.

 

Bandwidth inside the DAC is by no means a bottleneck today. We already have more than enough for even VoLTE and HD calling. Do you know how low quality VoLTE really is? It's not even 24Kbps... Even my Galaxy S2 could handle ~1000Kbps FLAC* with ease. Higher bandwidth is not needed, and will not make a difference.

 

*It might be worth noting that it is not the DAC doing the decoding of the FLAC file. I don't know what the final bandwidth of the data going though the DAC is. It might be more than 1000Kbps.

 

 

How is it better in the long run?

 

The problem with aptX is that both of the source and sink has to support it. If one of them doesn't you get bumped down to the standard A2DP which is not exactly great (especially not if you end up using SBC which is actually far worse than even MP3). Another problem is that the audio will most likely end up being transcoded from one lossy format (like MP3 or AAC) into another (aptX, SBC or whatever your bluetooth devices use).

 

 

DACs aren't expensive, but they are hell of a more expensive than a 3.5mm headphone jack. It's probably something along the lines of 2 dollars vs 20 cent.

Better in the long run because it allows me to get audio out of my device on the go in a digital form where my headphones and built in DAC can deal with it, rather than be processed by the inbuilt DAC and then output through a 3.5mm analogue connector. Yeah, sure... Headphones would likely be slightly more expensive in a realistic scenario, and if you buy a terrible pair of headphones, well you're going to have a bad experience... But that's the same now, except you also have to hope the DAC in your phone is decent and the AMP can power your headphones. 

 

As for DACs adding to costs all phones with a 3.5mm jack have inbuilt DAC. 

[as96]

I hope this thing is going to fail badly

[Sauron]

Boycott this garbage.

On 9/6/2016 at 11:56 PM, dtaflorida said:

Yay, it's catching on! I'm no audiophile, so I'm perfectly happy to use bluetooth and have done so for about 5 years now. 

Bluetooth headphones sound worse, are heavier, require charging, are more expensive and you could use them just as well on a phone with a jack. There is no situation in which this is good.

 

Or rather, I don't mind too much that they're doing away with the jack itself - it is an old connector and it may be a good idea to move on to something better like usb c (although the 360° spin and ridiculous sturdiness will be missed) BUT NOT WHEN YOU ONLY HAVE ONE PORT ON THE PHONE AND THAT PORT IS ALSO USED FOR CHARGING.