Windows Store Games won't have VSync off, SLI/CrossFire, Fullscreen or Modding

[GoodBytes]

This is only my guess.

The possible reason why Microsoft didn't include or think to include a switch off V-Sync option, is probably because they were looking at Universal Apps, when it was designed, to run Apps first and foremost, and as for gaming, you want V-Sync on on phones and also on XBox. In fact, most console games have V-sync on, that is also why many are locked at 30fps. It is better for a game to be locked to 30fps, (I mean their choices are: 60fps, 30fps or 15fps), then to have a game framerate go all over the place. A steady fps allows you to be emerged in the game, if it fluctuates all over the place, it gets you out and frustrates you. That is why when you look at getting a graphics card, you want to have the minimum fps to be the closest to the avg fps. In fact, what reviews should do is draw you a graph that shows you the fps in time, and you want a graphics card with the most steady fps.

 

I don't think PC gaming, like AAA titles, was in their consideration when they designed Universal Apps.

 

What I am wondering is:

 -> Is Microsoft really putting PC games on the store to get the attention of casual gamer (in the sense that the person is a gamer, but plays for fun here and there, and not hardcore gamer who is thinking of winning championships, equipped with his gamer mouse, gamer keyboard, gamer monitor, gamer sound card, gamer headset, gamer desk lamp, and gamer printer... well a RGB desk lamp would be neat, you could adjust the white level.... hmmmm you know, that is pretty good idea), with an ultimate goal to push interest for that demographic of people to check out the App Store?

 

OR

 

-> Is Microsoft want to use some AAA PC games as examples of what you can do with the Universal App platform for developers, and that Microsoft will only have some games on it, for a moment and stop, as the point (Universal Apps framework is powerful, and not the garbage Metro app where back in Win8 days) would be made?

 

OR

 

-> Is Microsoft actually serious about PC gaming, and they are working on a store section for PC games, where they are working on something that will please many PC games, and want a store with games, and decided to push games to it, while they continue to work on something, and when it is done with Redstone 1 or 2, it will have a nice catalog of games already. It is a bit wishful thinking I find, but apparently XBox App on Windows 10 / 10 Mobile is coming to XBox. We got the overlay thing already and that works super well. Could Skype be integrated in the future for in game chat and voice chat? Say what you will about Skype, it is still much better than Steam system in every way, in terms of chat/voice. So if that is integrated into games, that would bring something on the table. (of course I assume by then V-Sync can be turned off, and all that),

 

 

 

 

[CommandMan7]

11 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

Telemetry data collecting has been there since XP. Ads on lock screen is because you enabled Windows Spotlight, and was mentioned at Microsoft BUILD event, Data mining, which I assume you mean Bing, is on all big search engines, and collect information on what you search. Bing integration was in Windows 8.1, people were fine with it.

 

Forces update sucks, but as must as Microsoft is tiered to be blamed with mass security issues related to people refusing to update their system. And they are a lot, and many of them are part of attacks it does on the web, as these systems are compromised, and while MS has a malware removal tool it sends through Windows Update, many have Updates disabled.

 

If you Win10 Pro, you can differ updates by 3 month that is the best you can do.

All fair points, but:

 

Just because you can disable lock screen ads doesn't mean that it isn't a bit of an asshole move. The majority of consumers probably won't know how to turn it off anyways.

 

The telemetry data's level of detail and options for customization has changed since Windows XP. What I assume you are talking about is the "Send error report" button that sends system info to Microsoft upon encountering an error - 

In Windows XP up to Windows 8.1, there was a "Don't Send" button. In Windows 10, this data is sent automatically. You can scale back the scope of the data in the feedback and diagnostics section of settings to "basic" level, but it still sends data to no matter what. 

 

As for forced updates and the impact on security, in previous versions of windows they had a message explicitly stating that turning off updates was "not recommended". So if a person wants to turn off Windows Update, they had been warned, making it their fault, not Microsoft's, when their security was compromised. Users could turn off security at their own risk. If a person wants to be vulnerable to security threats, then why not let them, after a proper warning? Some windows updates even cause negative effects for the end user, so why not let the person decide what to do with their PC?

 

For data mining, I was primarily talking about Cortana. When you use Bing, it is a reasonable expectation that Bing will collect data on you, that I have no problem with. It's also why I don't particularly care about Google's data mining either. But with Windows 10 Cortana, Microsoft is literally "Trying to get to know you", on a deeper level than any other company. They want to get to know you intimately - to make "better suggestions", in the form of targeted ads and search results. I am really not comfortable with Microsoft trying to get to learn so much about me for their profit. I know it can be turned off, but as I have said, 98% of people never even touch the settings and are not aware that this is happening.

 

The troubling part is that all of the data Microsoft is collecting has more potential than say, the data Google collects, because Microsoft has the unique ability to get data in many different ways and then use that data across the entirety of Windows 10 in a cohesive effort to influence what you buy through ads and what you read through manipulating search results. Of course, you could argue that Microsoft has the legal right to do this - and they certainly do because of all the policies and EULA's you agree to, but I think it is wrong that Microsoft tries to hide this activity, by pretending that the data collection is done in the name of improving the platform - in addition to removing the ability to opt out and turning on data collection by default. 

 

The bottom line is, I expect data collection to happen when I'm on google.com, or bing.com, or any webpage, but when data collection is hard-wired into my operating system, I'm going to be angry. What I do on my PC offline is my business, and my business only. Microsoft can collect all the data they want from Bing, but on my Windows 10 that I already paid good money for, I deserve to do whatever I want without Microsoft trying to monetize and control it.

 

Also, back on topic, at least we can agree the current state of the windows store is in need of improvement, as it is sorely missing important features.

 

 

 

[PerfectTemplar]

*Sigh* They have already said they're looking into fixing these draw backs. Sensationalist title and bullshit information that means nothing. At the moment yes, it doesn't have these options because it sucks. But this implies that's how it's going to be.... Forever..

[GoodBytes]

@CommandMan7, this is already way off topic, and they are many threads on this.

But to quickly answer you, Microsoft collects a bunch of info on your usage of Windows XP. Similarly to Windows 10. Yes Microsoft added things, and they made the privacy policy easy to understand after all these years, and people are freaking out. Yes it is true that you can't opt out fully, while in previous version you could. Did you do anything before? Probably not, like most people. It didn't even come to mind that Windows was doing this.

 

It doesn't matter that previous version of Windows showed a message that disabling updates isn't recommended, even bugged the hell out of you in Windows 7 and 8 if you have turned off. A lot of people, including companies did. And then it is Microsoft fault, of course, and then you have Apple saying how Windows is insecure.

 

Cortana is disabled by default. You need to set it up to use it. And also Cortana IS BING. It is fully integrated in Bing since it's creation on Windows Phone 8. Everything you ask and do, almost, goes through Bing. And in addition, it is a personal assistance. It can remind you of appointment, it can tell remind you of getting things when you get to a certain place, it can track your packages, it can send text messages, it can send e-mails, and more. Plus it be integrates with Universal Apps, for example you can say to open Netflix and play a specific movie. App developers can use this ability. And yes, at the same time, like when you use Google, or Bing, or Chrome, or your Android phone, it collects data on you. But the data is not used to ID you, it used to be sold for a very lucrative product: market data. Data that is represented like so:

 

"People of the age 14-30, marked as gamer, in North America, likes to watch the following YouTube channels. They like purchasing tech related T-shirt and likes Retro gaming stuff." Companies buy this data.. they buy it for making ads, they buy it for designing future products, and know how to market it, and see how to market it. And while they buying it for millions of dollars, it is a small fees considering the loss that they would get in failing to design a product that will appeal the target market. And yes, that data is used by the company itself for its own ad network. That is how Google makes its money. That is how Microsoft makes is money from Bing.

 

So you are angry in using your Android phone? How about Chrome, I assume.

[CommandMan7]

13 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

@CommandMan7, this is already way off topic, and they are many threads on this.

But to quickly answer you, Microsoft collects a bunch of info on your usage of Windows XP. Similarly to Windows 10. Yes Microsoft added things, and they made the privacy policy easy to understand after all these years, and people are freaking out. Yes it is true that you can't opt out fully, while in previous version you could. Did you do anything before? Probably not, like most people. It didn't even come to mind that Windows was doing this.

 

It doesn't matter that previous version of Windows showed a message that disabling updates isn't recommended, even bugged the hell out of you in Windows 7 and 8 if you have turned off. A lot of people, including companies did. And then it is Microsoft fault, of course, and then you have Apple saying how Windows is insecure.

 

Cortana is disabled by default. You need to set it up to use it. And also Cortana IS BING. It is fully integrated in Bing since it's creation on Windows Phone 8. Everything you ask and do, almost, goes through Bing. And in addition, it is a personal assistance. It can remind you of appointment, it can tell remind you of getting things when you get to a certain place, it can track your packages, it can send text messages, it can send e-mails, and more. Plus it be integrates with Universal Apps, for example you can say to open Netflix and play a specific movie. App developers can use this ability. And yes, at the same time, like when you use Google, or Bing, or Chrome, or your Android phone, it collects data on you. But the data is not used to ID you, it used to be sold for a very lucrative product: market data. Data that is represented like so:

 

"People of the age 14-30, marked as gamer, in North America, likes to watch the following YouTube channels. They like purchasing tech related T-shirt and likes Retro gaming stuff." Companies buy this data.. they buy it for making ads, they buy it for designing future products, and know how to market it, and see how to market it. And while they buying it for millions of dollars, it is a small fees considering the loss that they would get in failing to design a product that will appeal the target market. And yes, that data is used by the company itself for its own ad network. That is how Google makes its money. That is how Microsoft makes is money from Bing.

 

So you are angry in using your Android phone? How about Chrome, I assume.

My point is I think it's wrong to collect data for ads through the operating system. Also, I have an Iphone and although I use chrome, I already said why Google data collection doesn't matter like windows 10 data collection does. Turn off chrome = turn off data collection. Turn off windows 10 = literally no computer. At this point I'm just gonna end the dispute and say that we just have a differing opinion on if it is right to profit off an operating system you already paid for. I agree to disagree.

[ApolloEleven]

Ugh V-sync adds input lag and increase CPU usage (tested this with Unreal Engine 4 and Unity 5)

[MEC-777]

8 hours ago, samcool55 said:

The problem with Vsync is when your pc is hovering around the 60fps and frequenty goes below it.

If you are gaming for example, and your pc fails for whatever reason to get 60fps and only gets 59 at one point, vsync kicks in hard and pushes the fps down all the way to 30fps. While the pc had 59 fps... So if your pc can't keep a solid 60fps and dips below it from time to time, vsync will cause it to go frequently all the way down to 30fps which is horrible!

 

Anyway, i'm suprised ms managed to make a store that completely fails to compete with what's out there.

No, it doesn't always drop from 60 to 30fps when you're running Vsync. Only some [older] games do that. Most games make use of triple buffering which keeps things smooth with Vsync on and the frame rate drops below 60. I have plenty of games that I run Vsync with and where the fps often dips into the 50's (like ROTTR and AC:Syndicate) it stays smooth and never drops to 30.

[Ex14]

11 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

 

I don't think any of this is in any high in Microsoft prioroty list, because very few people have play games with V-Sync off, as they don't want tearing all over the place, and few mod games.

I disagree with you I  the vsync front. I really think MS should have a vsync off option. having vsync really slows down the experience imo. I can actually feel the input lag or whatever it is vsync does. it feels like my reactions are delayed to a certain degree. as such all the games i play have vsync off for that reason 

 

edit : this negativity against MS is what I have said previously in other post.  there is no second chance given, everything they do is evil, they aren't given any ability to redeem themselves.  this is given to them to a larger degree to what other companies do (Apple iOS store for being closed,  Steam for being crap [their customer service is still pretty bad]  in the past, Android being nothing but a data collection point for Google) 

 

I know alot of people here would be happy to see MS go under.  But I won't. esp since they seem to be the only one doing really innovative,  new things such as hololens,  kinect (past) and many other garage stuff we have not yet seen. 

[MEC-777]

5 minutes ago, Ex14 said:

I disagree with you I  the vsync front. I really think MS should have a vsync off option. having vsync really slows down the experience imo. I can actually feel the input lag or whatever it is vsync does. it feels like my reactions are delayed to a certain degree. as such all the games i play have vsync off for that reason 

It's useful in some games as I can't stand screen tearing. Some games have such horrible screen tearing that I have no choice but to use Vsync. Other games I much have full unleashed frame rates for the least input lag possible (racing and FPS games). 

 

It's a matter of preference, really. Regardless, the option to turn it on/off should ALWAYS be available. This would be a big deal-breaker for many PC gamers if it's true.

[Mushious]

Games for WIndows Live 2.0

[Misanthrope]

8 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

@CommandMan7, this is already way off topic, and they are many threads on this.

But to quickly answer you, Microsoft collects a bunch of info on your usage of Windows XP. Similarly to Windows 10. Yes Microsoft added things, and they made the privacy policy easy to understand after all these years, and people are freaking out. Yes it is true that you can't opt out fully, while in previous version you could. Did you do anything before? Probably not, like most people. It didn't even come to mind that Windows was doing this.

 

It doesn't matter that previous version of Windows showed a message that disabling updates isn't recommended, even bugged the hell out of you in Windows 7 and 8 if you have turned off. A lot of people, including companies did. And then it is Microsoft fault, of course, and then you have Apple saying how Windows is insecure.

 

Cortana is disabled by default. You need to set it up to use it. And also Cortana IS BING. It is fully integrated in Bing since it's creation on Windows Phone 8. Everything you ask and do, almost, goes through Bing. And in addition, it is a personal assistance. It can remind you of appointment, it can tell remind you of getting things when you get to a certain place, it can track your packages, it can send text messages, it can send e-mails, and more. Plus it be integrates with Universal Apps, for example you can say to open Netflix and play a specific movie. App developers can use this ability. And yes, at the same time, like when you use Google, or Bing, or Chrome, or your Android phone, it collects data on you. But the data is not used to ID you, it used to be sold for a very lucrative product: market data. Data that is represented like so:

 

"People of the age 14-30, marked as gamer, in North America, likes to watch the following YouTube channels. They like purchasing tech related T-shirt and likes Retro gaming stuff." Companies buy this data.. they buy it for making ads, they buy it for designing future products, and know how to market it, and see how to market it. And while they buying it for millions of dollars, it is a small fees considering the loss that they would get in failing to design a product that will appeal the target market. And yes, that data is used by the company itself for its own ad network. That is how Google makes its money. That is how Microsoft makes is money from Bing.

 

So you are angry in using your Android phone? How about Chrome, I assume.

So how many times have we said "Yes other do it, doesn't makes it any more ok for Microsoft to do it" to you and you keep bringing this logical fallacy? Two wrongs will never make a right, stop trying so hard to cry "double standard" every time this gets brought up.

[Master Disaster]

9 hours ago, CommandMan7 said:

All fair points, but:

 

Just because you can disable lock screen ads doesn't mean that it isn't a bit of an asshole move. The majority of consumers probably won't know how to turn it off anyways.

 

The telemetry data's level of detail and options for customization has changed since Windows XP. What I assume you are talking about is the "Send error report" button that sends system info to Microsoft upon encountering an error - 

In Windows XP up to Windows 8.1, there was a "Don't Send" button. In Windows 10, this data is sent automatically. You can scale back the scope of the data in the feedback and diagnostics section of settings to "basic" level, but it still sends data to no matter what. 

 

As for forced updates and the impact on security, in previous versions of windows they had a message explicitly stating that turning off updates was "not recommended". So if a person wants to turn off Windows Update, they had been warned, making it their fault, not Microsoft's, when their security was compromised. Users could turn off security at their own risk. If a person wants to be vulnerable to security threats, then why not let them, after a proper warning? Some windows updates even cause negative effects for the end user, so why not let the person decide what to do with their PC?

 

For data mining, I was primarily talking about Cortana. When you use Bing, it is a reasonable expectation that Bing will collect data on you, that I have no problem with. It's also why I don't particularly care about Google's data mining either. But with Windows 10 Cortana, Microsoft is literally "Trying to get to know you", on a deeper level than any other company. They want to get to know you intimately - to make "better suggestions", in the form of targeted ads and search results. I am really not comfortable with Microsoft trying to get to learn so much about me for their profit. I know it can be turned off, but as I have said, 98% of people never even touch the settings and are not aware that this is happening.

 

The troubling part is that all of the data Microsoft is collecting has more potential than say, the data Google collects, because Microsoft has the unique ability to get data in many different ways and then use that data across the entirety of Windows 10 in a cohesive effort to influence what you buy through ads and what you read through manipulating search results. Of course, you could argue that Microsoft has the legal right to do this - and they certainly do because of all the policies and EULA's you agree to, but I think it is wrong that Microsoft tries to hide this activity, by pretending that the data collection is done in the name of improving the platform - in addition to removing the ability to opt out and turning on data collection by default. 

 

The bottom line is, I expect data collection to happen when I'm on google.com, or bing.com, or any webpage, but when data collection is hard-wired into my operating system, I'm going to be angry. What I do on my PC offline is my business, and my business only. Microsoft can collect all the data they want from Bing, but on my Windows 10 that I already paid good money for, I deserve to do whatever I want without Microsoft trying to monetize and control it.

 

Also, back on topic, at least we can agree the current state of the windows store is in need of improvement, as it is sorely missing important features.

 

 

 

You know what, I'd much rather have my data collected and used to try and sell me stuff directly (which I can just ignore) than have it collected and sold to the highest bidder to be used for god knows what by god knows who. At least I known MS aren't selling my info to some Nigerian prince with 100 bitcoins stuck in escrow who needs £1000 to release it and is willing to split the bitcoins 50/50 with me.

[ManIkWeet]

14 hours ago, ApolloEleven said:

Ugh V-sync adds input lag and increase CPU usage (tested this with Unreal Engine 4 and Unity 5)

How does it increase CPU usage if it lowers your fps?

[patrickjp93]

See, finally Microsoft is learning from the innovations of Apple. The vendors know best what consumers really will want/pay for. The plebes only THINK they know what's best. Silly consumers...

 

#ValveDemiseImminent

[Belgarathian]

I wonder how quickly they'll back track on this... Like the Xbox One lauch. 

[GoodBytes]

On Twitter, Microsoft confirms that SLI/Crossfire support is there for games on the Windows, the game itself needs to support it to have it (naturally).

 

As for VSync disable feature it is in the works.

http://www.winbeta.org/news/microsoft-gaming-boss-responds-to-windows-10-vsync-sli-crossfire-complaints

[StareX]

10 hours ago, GoodBytes said:

On Twitter, Microsoft confirms that SLI/Crossfire support is there for games on the Windows Phone, the game itself needs to support it to have it (naturally).

 

As for VSync disable feature it is in the works.

http://www.winbeta.org/news/microsoft-gaming-boss-responds-to-windows-10-vsync-sli-crossfire-complaints

Windows Phone?

[GoodBytes]

Huh? oh already fixed

[MEC-777]

27 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

On Twitter, Microsoft confirms that SLI/Crossfire support is there for games on the Windows, the game itself needs to support it to have it (naturally).

 

As for VSync disable feature it is in the works.

http://www.winbeta.org/news/microsoft-gaming-boss-responds-to-windows-10-vsync-sli-crossfire-complaints

What about being forced in boardless windowed mode? Earlier in this thread a member stated they bought ROTTR from the window app store and confirmed the game was running in true full-screen mode... Guess that is false too. 

 

I'm wondering now if this was all just rumors spread to bash MS. Wouldn't surprise me. I still wouldn't buy games from them but it seems it's not as bad as originally made out to be. Will update OP with this info. Thanks.