The GTX 970 vs. R9 390 thread to (theoretically) end them all

[App4that]

3 minutes ago, Citadelen said:

Oh I don't contest that the Nvidia drivers have a draw call advantage, but the person in that video was getting drops to 17 FPS on a 980Ti, also, it shouldn't be up to the player's to dive into the ini's to edit shadow distance, the game should have been built for DX11 at least, if not DX12. I'm intrigued as to how you ran Fallout 4 using Crossfire, seeing as I don't think there was a Crossfire profile released for the game before you switched to 980Ti.

Easy, forced it with 1x1 and used Rivia to cap the FPS. Problem was the shadows. Had a 4690k at the time so I had to choose between fps and shadows.

 

And like I said, you wouldn't understand. 99% of the games out there are plug and play, with maybe some slider adjustment to make. Fallout is our game

[Citadelen]

7 minutes ago, Monarch said:

Because DX11 is an old, outdated high overhead API. Both AMD and Nvidia cards suffer in some situations where neither have high enough draw call throughput. Situations like Arkham Knight and Assassin's Creed Unity.

Then why did you use it as an example of AMD's draw call deficit if you believe it too be true?

[Citadelen]

Just now, App4that said:

Easy, forced it with 1x1 and used Rivia to cap the FPS. Problem was the shadows. Had a 4690k at the time so I had to choose between fps and shadows.

 

And like I said, you wouldn't understand. 99% of the games out there are plug and play, with maybe some slider adjustment to make. Fallout is our game

I'm perfectly capable of adjusting ini settings, I used custom shadow settings in Skyrim and in Fallout 4 I used the dynamic shadow adjusting mod because it was simply eaiser. I've not completed Skyrim as well, I spent all of my time on fitting as many mods in as possible. So yes, I would and do understand.

[App4that]

1 minute ago, Citadelen said:

I'm perfectly capable of adjusting ini settings, I used custom shadow settings in Skyrim and in Fallout 4 I used the dynamic shadow adjusting mod because it was simply eaiser. I've not completed Skyrim as well, I spent all of my time on fitting as many mods in as possible. So yes, I would and do understand.

Doesn't sound like it. Bethesda as the developer is under no requirement to make sure your PC can run the game. So to stop playing or support someone who stopped playing because they wouldn't lower the settings so as to make it easy for their system to run the game, shows a complete disconnect from the mentality that takes responsibility for their own experience.

 

That said, I'm pissed at Bethesda for the pile of shit they dumped on us. Still my favorite game, but that doesn't excuse the issue the game suffers from. 

[Citadelen]

Just now, App4that said:

Doesn't sound like it. Bethesda as the developer is under no requirement to make sure your PC can run the game. So to stop playing or support someone who stopped playing because they wouldn't lower the settings so as to make it easy for their system to run the game, shows a complete disconnect from the mentality that takes responsibility for their own experience.

 

That said, I'm pissed at Bethesda for the pile of shit they dumped on us. Still my favorite game, but that doesn't excuse the issue the game suffers from. 

What? I did lower settings, God Rays went to low, shadow quality went to medium, and the mod adjusted my distance depending on my FPS. 

[App4that]

Just now, Citadelen said:

What? I did lower settings, God Rays went to low, shadow quality went to medium, and the mod adjusted my distance depending on my FPS. 

I'm speaking of the video you provided as evidence, or would you like to retract it? 

 

And don't use anything but off or ultra with Godrays. One of the shit things in the game. Any setting but Ultra or off causes pixilation on edges. If you want it off you might have to dive the ini's to kill it. 

[Citadelen]

1 minute ago, App4that said:

I'm speaking of the video you provided as evidence, or would you like to retract it? 

 

And don't use anything but off or ultra with Godrays. One of the shit things in the game. Any setting but Ultra or off causes pixilation on edges. If you want it off you might have to dive the ini's to kill it. 

Well, I'm pretty sure you were attacking me and the person in the video.

[App4that]

8 minutes ago, Citadelen said:

Well, I'm pretty sure you were attacking me and the person in the video.

Not attacking per say. I'd classify it under ribbing. A good solid kick to the jimmies never hurt anyone if it's a constructive kick. There is equal responsibility on both sides, the developer and the player must accept them. And as launches go Fallout 4 is shockingly stable for a Bethesda title. But things like the Godrays, flickering, and lack of a creation kit are at the top of the "why Bethesda, WHY" list.

 

On topic. Nvidia rules, AMD drools.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Couldn't help myself.

[PlayStation 2]

Just now, App4that said:

On topic. AMD rules, Nvidia drools.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Couldn't help myself.

ftfy :^)

[Prysin]

2 hours ago, Monarch said:

 

It doesn't matter what's being tested. If the R9 390 can beat the GTX 970 only with the 6700K, and not with the i5, then it's obvious that the GPU is bottlenecked with the i5 because of the high overhead and needs a fast and expensive CPU in order to not get bottlenecked. But the GTX 970 isn't bottlenecked as much with the i5 as the 390 is. Which means driver overhead has a big impact and AMD GPUs should not be recommended with slower CPUs for CPU-bound games.

let me get this straight. Because teh game behaves differently on two wastly different architectures, in a game, it is a CPU overhead issue?

Are you a moron?

A GPU has strengths and weaknesses on a hardware level. Drivers cannot fix these nor do they do much to make em worse. Because it is a fucking HARDWARE level issue.

So unless you can rule out hardware related issues, you cannot PROVE, that it is drivers.

 

Good example. Crysis 2.... AMD tanked performance like mad, why? Cuz Nvidia alongside Epic Games decided to put rocks with shitloads of tesselation UNDER the surface of the playable map. Nvidia cards loved tesselation and didnt care at all. AMD cards at the time couldnt do it, and as a result it took a LOONG time for AMD to fix the issue, as they litterally had to patch the game itself to fix this issue.

The Witcher 3... AMD cards couldnt run Hairworks in the beginning, because it was hardlocked to x64 tesselation. Which causes insane FPS drops for AMD because they cannot do tesselation anywhere NEAR as good as Nvidia. Nvidia on the other hand had a much much lower impact on their cards.

What was the solution to TW3 tess spam? AMD quietly forced maximum X8 tesselation in their drivers. AMD cards still took a notable performance hit, but things were atleast playable.

 

These are but SOME examples of how graphical load can cause a issue. Driver magic will not give AMD better tesselation performance, Because their GPUs inherently cannot do it very well on a hardware level. Just like Maxwell is seriously limited in Async Compute. They can do it, but nowhere remotely near the level that AMD cards can. Not even remotely close.

 

If you truly believe those benchmarks prove driver overhead in the context of the article it comes from, then you are a moron.

[Monarch]

1 hour ago, Citadelen said:

Then why did you use it as an example of AMD's draw call deficit if you believe it too be true?

Because AMD's driver overhead is much higher than Nvidia's.

 

1 hour ago, Prysin said:

let me get this straight. Because teh game behaves differently on two wastly different architectures, in a game, it is a CPU overhead issue?

Are you a moron?

A GPU has strengths and weaknesses on a hardware level. Drivers cannot fix these nor do they do much to make em worse. Because it is a fucking HARDWARE level issue.

So unless you can rule out hardware related issues, you cannot PROVE, that it is drivers.

 

Good example. Crysis 2.... AMD tanked performance like mad, why? Cuz Nvidia alongside Epic Games decided to put rocks with shitloads of tesselation UNDER the surface of the playable map. Nvidia cards loved tesselation and didnt care at all. AMD cards at the time couldnt do it, and as a result it took a LOONG time for AMD to fix the issue, as they litterally had to patch the game itself to fix this issue.

The Witcher 3... AMD cards couldnt run Hairworks in the beginning, because it was hardlocked to x64 tesselation. Which causes insane FPS drops for AMD because they cannot do tesselation anywhere NEAR as good as Nvidia. Nvidia on the other hand had a much much lower impact on their cards.

What was the solution to TW3 tess spam? AMD quietly forced maximum X8 tesselation in their drivers. AMD cards still took a notable performance hit, but things were atleast playable.

 

These are but SOME examples of how graphical load can cause a issue. Driver magic will not give AMD better tesselation performance, Because their GPUs inherently cannot do it very well on a hardware level. Just like Maxwell is seriously limited in Async Compute. They can do it, but nowhere remotely near the level that AMD cards can. Not even remotely close.

 

If you truly believe those benchmarks prove driver overhead in the context of the article it comes from, then you are a moron.

You clearly still don't grasp what driver overhead is and how high driver overhead manifests itself. The reason why the 390 dropped framerate in that video cannot be due to its architecture because the issue obviously occurs only in draw call heavy situations and the GPU load drops.

[Citadelen]

2 minutes ago, Monarch said:

-snip-

Yes, I know that, but you accepted that the issue affected both Nvidia and AMD, and that the fault lay with Bethesda and it's engine. Thus, a Fallout 4 video is not a good example of AMD's draw call deficit.

[App4that]

2 minutes ago, Citadelen said:

Yes, I know that, but you accepted that the issue affected both Nvidia and AMD, and that the fault lay with Bethesda and it's engine. Thus, a Fallout 4 video is not a good example of AMD's draw call deficit.

*sigh*

 

Both being effected doesn't remove the extent to which they were effected. It's a perfect example.

[Citadelen]

Just now, App4that said:

*sigh*

 

Both being effected doesn't remove the extent to which they were effected. It's a perfect example.

I seem to recall the guy with a 980Ti was having drops to lower than what I was experiencing. Fallout 4 effects people seemingly at random, so can't be used as an example in my opinion.

[App4that]

Just now, Citadelen said:

I seem to recall the guy with a 980Ti was having drops to lower than what I was experiencing. Fallout 4 effects people seemingly at random, so can't be used as an example in my opinion.

Not at random, but depending on your location on the map and settings used.

[Citadelen]

Just now, App4that said:

Not at random, but depending on your location on the map and settings used.

Random as in people effected.

[Prysin]

5 minutes ago, Monarch said:

Because AMD's driver overhead is much higher than Nvidia's.

 

You clearly still don't grasp what driver overhead is and how high driver overhead manifests itself. The reason why the 390 dropped framerate in that video cannot be due to its architecture because the issue obviously occurs only in draw call heavy situations and the GPU load drops.

and you do not understand how you DETECT driver overhead.

a simple graph with no context CANNOT PROVE IT. Especially in an article THAT WAS NOT EVEN SPECIFICALLY LOOKING INTO DRIVER OVERHEAD, BUT RATHER THE PERFORMANCE OF THE R9 380X.

 

I have come across quite a few fanboys, but you are not just any fanboy, you set the gold standard for fanboyism.

 

I am done with you and your ignorance.

[App4that]

Just now, Citadelen said:

Random as in people effected.

Not random. Everyone is playing the same game as long as they are on the same update. There are confounding variables like RAM speed but that is not random. Just the variance of everyones build. Change from AMD to Nvidia, and back in your personal rig and you'd see it.

[Citadelen]

17 minutes ago, App4that said:

Not random. Everyone is playing the same game as long as they are on the same update. There are confounding variables like RAM speed but that is not random. Just the variance of everyones build. Change from AMD to Nvidia, and back in your personal rig and you'd see it.

You don't appear to be reading what I'm typing properly, I'm terminating this pointless conversation that will get no where.

[PlayStation 2]

You know, I really regret making this thread. All it's turned into is a pissing contest to see who can use the most vulgar language and salt in a paragraph. And this is on both sides. I might just request this thread to be deleted if people don't straighten up.

[App4that]

Just now, Dan Castellaneta said:

You know, I really regret making this thread. All it's turned into is a pissing contest to see who can use the most vulgar language and salt in a paragraph. And this is on both sides. I might just request this thread to be deleted if people don't straighten up.

Actually, I'd let it ride. Brings light to the issue of fans.

[Nena Trinity]

Can we all not agree both cards are good? But different! o3o

[Dabombinable]

1 minute ago, Nena360 said:

Can we all not agree both cards are good? But different! o3o

We can agree on that, but some people are staunch defenders of their favourite company (still don't get why people have favourite companies-they are all in it for your money nothing else).

[App4that]

Just now, Nena360 said:

Can we all not agree both cards are good? But different! o3o

Yep, I'll repost this. for reasons.

[i_build_nanosuits]

you guys should listen to this video at precisely 7:15...give it a go and look at actual performance: