LGBT community

[TGJamieErin]

I never said anything like that meme at all. I never said anything about transphobia either. Don't put words in my mouth. Seems like you're more riled up than a Trans person about this. Don't be so defensive,  I never directed my comment at you to begin with. 

 

By your logic gay people shouldn't be able to serve either, as considered to be a mental illness by many. 

[SeriouslyMikey]

2 minutes ago, TGJamieErin said:

I never said anything like that meme at all. I never said anything about transphobia either. Don't put words in my mouth. Seems like you're more riled up than a Trans person about this. Don't be so defensive,  I never directed my comment at you to begin with. 

 

By your logic gay people shouldn't be able to serve either, as considered to be a mental illness by many. 

I'm not putting words in your mouth, that was an example of a somewhat relateable situation, and I finished it off with a possible argument that could have been used against the most recent move. As for the meme, that was just me putting your words into a meme, that's how I saw it, if it's wrong, okay. 

 

And no, by my logic, that's not the case. Unless a gay person is in need of therapy to come to terms with their sexuality. After all being gay and being transexual isn't the same. I don't need therapy or any physical treatment in order to function properly as a human. I don't need to have facial structure surgery to look more feminine, nor do I need any other operations in order to finally live comfortably as myself. Not to mention, Gender Dysphoria is seen as a mental condition within medical science.

 

Heck, I'd actually say there is some mental aspect to being gay. Humans, just like most animals on the planet need to have sex to breed and provide offspring to keep the species going, it's a basic instinct. Homosexuality goes against this natural basic instinct. 

[AshleyAshes]

Weather or not one being trans interferes with their ability to serve in their nation's armed forces would be decided on a case by case basis.  To say 'NO ONE with any kind of mental illness or physical illness should be allowed into the military.' doesn't work and it's now how it works either, there are physical and mental illnesses which do not impose problems with military service and those individuals do serve in their militarizes.

 

...And let's not forget how The United States military has continued to lower recruitment standards over the last 20 years to make up for shortages in numbers.   To put it bluntly, applicants to the US Military (And OTHER militaries in the west) are becoming progressively fatter, older, and dumber and to not lower standards leads to troop shortages.

[TGJamieErin]

Your lack of knowledge is showing. Not every trans person transitions medically or even experiences dysphoria.  not every trans person needs therapy or surgeries either... 

 

About the military viagra costs though... 

[SeriouslyMikey]

1 minute ago, AshleyAshes said:

Weather or not one being trans interferes with their ability to serve in their nation's armed forces would be decided on a case by case basis.  To say 'NO ONE with any kind of mental illness or physical illness should be allowed into the military.' doesn't work and it's now how it works either, there are physical and mental illnesses which do not impose problems with military service and those individuals do serve in their militarizes.

 

...And let's not forget how The United States military has continued to lower recruitment standards over the last 20 years to make up for shortages in numbers.   To put it bluntly, applicants to the US Military (And OTHER militaries in the west) are becoming progressively fatter, older, and dumber and to not lower standards leads to troop shortages.

Which is something that needs to be dealt with. But I still stand by my comments of mental illnesses should be kept out of the military, though, I probably didn't use the correct words to express that. I believe that it needs to be as strong as stable as possible in order to keep a secure nation. Lowering standards is a huge issue in my eyes, but maybe instead of lowering standards we should be looking at possible reasons as to why they need lowering? Changes in generations, changes in how people are raised and how men, at least in my eyes are becoming more feminine and are becoming weaker than the previous generations. I do think it comes down to the saying: "Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times." Personally, I think we're entering, or already are in the good times and we're gradually creating hard times with weak men. 

 

I think to make sure we don't need to lower standards and to even increase people joining the military we should be looking at things like education, parenting, and the family structure. That, or we just let the hard times roll in and it'll force everyone to have to pitch in to bring back the good times. 

 

 

 

 

 

[SeriouslyMikey]

13 minutes ago, TGJamieErin said:

Your lack of knowledge is showing. Not every trans person transitions medically or even experiences dysphoria.  not every trans person needs therapy or surgeries either... 

 

About the military viagra costs though... 

If you're not suffering from gender dysphoria, how can one be transexual? It is the core of the mental illness. You say I'm misinformed and yet you don't put forward any kind of information, nor do you correct me. Nor did I say every one of them, although, I'm fairly certain it would be the general rule after all they're uncomfortable with the body they have and the only way to change that would require medical treatment, no? 

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Treatment.aspx

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/gender-dysphoria/what-is-gender-dysphoria

 

[TGJamieErin]

I'm literally donating plasma,  this second. I'm not looking up shit lol

[SeriouslyMikey]

Just now, TGJamieErin said:

I'm literally donating plasma,  this second. I'm not looking up shit lol

Riiiight. 

[TGJamieErin]

Proof enough? 

[AshleyAshes]

Just now, SeriouslyMikey said:

maybe instead of lowering standards we should be looking at possible reasons as to why they need lowering?

They've already been looked at.  They're beyond a military's control.

Firstly, and let's not deny it, in a big picture kinda way the The United States and some other western counties are just getting fatter.

 

In addition tot hat, you have competition with private and public employment.  And increasing number of individuals who would qualify as high quality soldiers can make more money and do better for themselves outside of the military.  As a simplistic example, why be an ace pilot for the US Air Force when Emirates has a starting pay of around $82 000 a year?

I mean sure, you can find examples of individuals who feel a duty to serve their country and 'it's not about wages' and such, but we're not talking about 'individuals', the US alone, we're talking about a military of 1.5 million active and 800 000 reserves.

 

You can say 'Oh, only the best should be allowed in the military' but when you say 'I need to recruit ten of the best' and only three meet that qualification, you have a problem that being 'picky' doesn't solve.  Saying 'It should only be the best' works great as an ideology but ideology doesn't always jive with reality.

[SeriouslyMikey]

Just now, AshleyAshes said:

They've already been looked at.  They're beyond a military's control.

Firstly, and let's not deny it, in a big picture kinda way the The United States and some other western counties are just getting fatter.

 

In addition tot hat, you have competition with private and public employment.  And increasing number of individuals who would qualify as high quality soldiers can make more money and do better for themselves outside of the military.  As a simplistic example, why be an ace pilot for the US Air Force when Emirates has a starting pay of around $82 000 a year?

I mean sure, you can find examples of individuals who feel a duty to serve their country and 'it's not about wages' and such, but we're not talking about 'individuals', the US alone, we're talking about a military of 1.5 million active and 800 000 reserves.

 

You can say 'Oh, only the best should be allowed in the military' but when you say 'I need to recruit ten of the best' and only three meet that qualification, you have a problem that being 'picky' doesn't solve.  Saying 'It should only be the best' works great as an ideology but ideology doesn't always jive with reality.

No it doesn't, you're right. But as you already said that the western world, especially the UK and the US are getting fatter, our waistlines are getting larger and we're taking up far more energy trying to fix the situation too. Maybe fixing such a terrible issue that not only causes people to be disgustingly unfit and less appealing for certain work, but they're becoming a huge burden on medical care too, especially here in the UK, where we have the NHS. Combating this would help not only with the military front, in the sense that more people will be able to reach those standards that, personally, I think should remain in place, but it would help ease tensions on other systems in place too. 

 

Because holy shit, fat people going on welfare because they're too obese to work, using disabled car parking spots because they're too fat to walk, or they're needing excess medical care because they weren't able to keep their traps shut when it came to stuffing that extra slice of cake into their gob, which then costs the public more in the end to deal with. But then again, that's coming down to the self responsibility. Coming from someone who is fat and is fat because of a lack of responsibility of myself and how I handled certain things in the past. 

 

As for the rest, I believe it stems from raising kids and the way we do so. I think Peter Hitchens put it well. The parents don't raise their kids anymore, and it seems in order to compensate for that, they spoil their kids with material goods. I've seen this in reality from working in retail and working in a skate store that dealt with kids on a daily basis. We'd get kids in, arguably the majority from all walks of life, who's parents were just too busy to deal with them, or simply didn't want to deal with them and would give them money just to buy something new for themselves either to keep them quiet or to keep them entertained. It breeds selfishness. 

[AshleyAshes]

24 minutes ago, SeriouslyMikey said:

If you're not suffering from gender dysphoria, how can one be transsexual? It is the core of the mental illness.

I think the crux of your problem here is that you believe that everything that can be defined as 'mental illness' inherently interrupts with one's ability to function.  Don't get me wrong, in a lot of cases it does.  But to use that as a blanket description of mental illness doesn't work.  There are plenty of individuals with ranges of mental illness who are completely functional despite that.

 

This is not a shot at your boyfriend who, from what you've indicated, experienced dysfunction as a result of depression and that's common, but it's not universal.  I imagine your boyfriend was also treated by doctors who evaluated his individual challenges faced by his depression and how they effected his ability to serve.  Which, again, is why it is normally a military's responsibility to make individual decisions on a case by case basis.

 

I'm trans and Canadian.  Know what my medical needs are?  Three pills a day.  If I joined the Canadian forces I'd just be required to NOT take those three pills a day while training or deployed.  That's literally all of my hassles.

 

...Though I do have some limited range in my left shoulder as a result of like half a year of inflammation some years ago, that could disqualify me.  ...Also, as a personal choice, the Military is kinda a little too 'bro' for my taste and I make way more money in the visual effects industry.  I feel a military paycheque wouldn't as adequately fund my purchases of stupid nerdy things.

[SeriouslyMikey]

1 minute ago, AshleyAshes said:

I think the crux of your problem here is that you believe that everything that can be defined as 'mental illness' inherently interrupts with one's ability to function.  Don't get me wrong, in a lot of cases it does.  But to use that as a blanket description of mental illness doesn't work.  There are plenty of individuals with ranges of mental illness who are completely functional despite that.

 

This is not a shot at your boyfriend who, from what you've indicated, experienced dysfunction as a result of depression and that's common, but it's not universal.  I imagine your boyfriend was also treated by doctors who evaluated his individual challenges faced by his depression and how they effected his ability to serve.  Which, again, is why it is normally a military's responsibility to make individual decisions on a case by case basis.

 

I'm trans and Canadian.  Know what my medical needs are?  Three pills a day.  If I joined the Canadian forces I'd just be required to NOT take those three pills a day while training or deployed.  That's literally all of my hastes.

 

...Though I do have some limited range in my left shoulder as a result of like half a year of inflammation some years ago, that could disqualify me.  ...Also, as a personal choice, the Military is kinda a little too 'bro' for my taste and I make way more money in the visual effects industry.  I feel a military paycheque wouldn't as adequately fund my purchases of stupid nerdy things.

 

Well, my boyfriend's been through a lot in his life, something I'm not at liberty to disclose. Even if one doesn't know him, it's still personal. I do think his case was a bit more unique, though, I do think it stands as a decent argument. He's been to see help with some issues on the side, again, something I'd rather not go into due to personal reasons, but for him, much like myself with my eating issues it all came down to finding self reliance and responsibility. Finding something to grasp onto and working towards that. He's currently looking into becoming a long distance lorry driver so he can pay for a dog training course, which keeps him more than happy, even with some "episodes". 

 

Oh, I understand my comment is certainly a blanket statement when it comes to transexuals, but it does hold ground. Would you, instead of banning all, be to review their medical history and find out their plans for the future in order to continue to allow transexuals into the military and to make sure we keep that flow of the best into protecting the nation? Because if that was viable, I'd be on board with that. 

[AshleyAshes]

Just now, SeriouslyMikey said:

Oh, I understand my comment is certainly a blanket statement when it comes to transexuals, but it does hold ground. Would you, instead of banning all, be to review their medical history and find out their plans for the future in order to continue to allow transsexuals into the military and to make sure we keep that flow of the best into protecting the nation? Because if that was viable, I'd be on board with that. 

But this is what military's already do.  They do individual physical and psychiatric assessments upon recruitment to determine their suitability and should issues arise in the future they reassess.  While it varies by military the jist of it is the same.  I mean, the biggest problem is that such systems have holes in them  There are plenty of veterans who return home with quiet but scary holes in their psyche yet are cleared to continue service while potentially being ticking time bombs.

 

You're kinda getting stuck into the whole 'ideology vs reality' thing again.  In short, systems fail, we see them fail, we try, they fail anyway and suggesting that the solution is 'Just use a system that DOESN'T fail, then everything is fine'.  We live in an exceptionally complicated world inhabited by complicated creatures who build complicated systems.  Things go wrong.  All the time.  We can 'try our best' but 'error proof' doesn't exist here and to say 'Well, we should just not have errors' doesn't address any of the challenges.  It works no more than to say to your boyfriend 'Oh, well, did you try just NOT being depressed?  Then you shouldn't be depressed.'  Right?  It's basically a nonsense suggestion because it doesn't address the challenges that cause problems it just says 'stop having problems'.

 

 

[Bleedingyamato]

1 hour ago, AshleyAshes said:

I think the crux of your problem here is that you believe that everything that can be defined as 'mental illness' inherently interrupts with one's ability to function.  Don't get me wrong, in a lot of cases it does.  But to use that as a blanket description of mental illness doesn't work.  There are plenty of individuals with ranges of mental illness who are completely functional despite that.

 

This is not a shot at your boyfriend who, from what you've indicated, experienced dysfunction as a result of depression and that's common, but it's not universal.  I imagine your boyfriend was also treated by doctors who evaluated his individual challenges faced by his depression and how they effected his ability to serve.  Which, again, is why it is normally a military's responsibility to make individual decisions on a case by case basis.

 

I'm trans and Canadian.  Know what my medical needs are?  Three pills a day.  If I joined the Canadian forces I'd just be required to NOT take those three pills a day while training or deployed.  That's literally all of my hassles.

 

...Though I do have some limited range in my left shoulder as a result of like half a year of inflammation some years ago, that could disqualify me.  ...Also, as a personal choice, the Military is kinda a little too 'bro' for my taste and I make way more money in the visual effects industry.  I feel a military paycheque wouldn't as adequately fund my purchases of stupid nerdy things.

Do you mind if I ask what those 3 pills are for and what the consequences of not taking them would be?

 

You could pm me if you'd be ok telling me but not in this thread.  

 

I'm just curious.  I don't mean anything bad by asking.

 

If you'd rather not tell me that's ok too of course.  

 

 

The lack of pay in the military is a problem I think too.  Partly because yeah it wouldn't allow for as much for disposable income.  Also because when deployed service people put their lives at risk and then get crappy pay for it.  

[WkdPaul]

While I understand that the recent news affecting part of this community is political in nature, we still don't allow for political discussion, especially when there are blanket accusation of one side being "dumb".

 

Thanks for understanding!

[Maxpphire]

You know what? Who cares about the fact that people on Viagra cost the Military more then Trans people. Why don't we take a look at something that doesn't really affect people's healthcare.

 

We have 11 Aircraft Carriers. Those cost somewhere in the Billions to operate and keep around each year. The rest of the world Combined has 8 Aircraft Carriers. Pretty sure we don't need more then half of the world's supply of Aircraft Carriers. We could get rid of one of those and not only cover Trans healthcare costs, but also the Viagra healthcare cost, as well as a bunch of other costs.

 

What upsets me most is one of my friends who is an Army dude, seems to be against the idea of Trans people in the Army. Now I am Trans. I wouldn't want to serve in the army because of many reasons, but I do respect the people who are/have. This friend seems super supportive but sometimes he does shit like this that makes me question if he really is even supportive. It's like he can't decide whether or not he is. One time he tried to being up some TransAge/TransRace Bullshit up with me and argued over the fact that if Transgender is a thing then how are those any different. It's like he is trying to find a reason to not be supportive but at the same time, he isn't that much of a douche and would protect me from Physical Harm if he is in the area. I wanted to comment on his post about why what he shared about Trans people not being fit to join the army is wrong but I'm too exhausted to deal with his antics in that regards anymore. I used to hold myself as a "Yeah I'll educate anyone, everyone should have a chance to understand." type of standard but this friend of mine is making me realize where the people who I used to think rudely and wrongly (After all if they educated themselves to a wrong conclusion what makes you think them doing it again will lead them to the correct conclusion) exclaim "We don't owe you to educate you, educate yourself" aren't exactly as out of place or as rude as I once thought.

[iamdarkyoshi]

19 minutes ago, wkdpaul said:

While I understand that the recent news affecting part of this community is political in nature, we still don't allow for political discussion, especially when there are blanket accusation of one side being "dumb".

 

Thanks for understanding!

Oh no. Both sides are dumb.

 

/s

[VFe]

5 hours ago, SeriouslyMikey said:

If you're not suffering from gender dysphoria, how can one be transexual? It is the core of the mental illness. You say I'm misinformed and yet you don't put forward any kind of information, nor do you correct me.

 

 

Per the DSM-5  

 

Quote

"A mental disorder is a syndrome characterized by clinically significant disturbance in an individual's cognition, emotion regulation, or behavior that reflects a dysfunction in the psychological, biological, or developmental processes underlying mental functioning. Mental disorders are usually associated with significant distress in social, occupational, or other important activities. An expectable or culturally approved response to a common stressor or loss, such as the death of a loved one, is not a mental disorder. Socially deviant behavior (e.g., political, religious, or sexual) and conflicts that are primarily between the individual and society are not mental disorders unless the deviance or conflict results from a dysfunction in the individual, as described above."

 

Your use of "Mental Illness" is incorrect; which is where a lot of the confusion stems from.

 

In psychology something is only a mental illness(per the standard listed above), if it significantly impacts their cognition, and emotional regulation.

 

There are definitely many people who do suffer from gender dysphoria in a way that impacts their mental health, but they are not mutually bound together; thus its possible to be trans and not suffer from a "mental illness"(gender dysphoria) if you are well adjusted and it's not significantly impacting your mental stability. One does not always follow the other.

 

So at least in that one aspect, you are slightly misinformed, and I have now taken the effort to provide the information to correct you. I hope you internalize this to form better arguments in the future(and I mean that sincerely).

 

 

[Nowak]

So because Trump didn't run his decision through the Pentagon first, the US military will continue to allow transgender people to enlist and serve. This may change if the White House does run it through the Pentagon, though.

 

tbh, if it was based on mental stability, then I'd at least understand a bit. HRT can fuck someone up, mentally. But, it seems to be a blanket ban, with mental stability not being taken into account, just the label. A real shame, because I don't doubt there are many mentally stable transgender people out there who are willing to serve the country.

[handymanshandle]

1 hour ago, Daring said:

So because Trump didn't run his decision through the Pentagon first, the US military will continue to allow transgender people to enlist and serve. This may change if the White House does run it through the Pentagon, though.

 

tbh, if it was based on mental stability, then I'd at least understand a bit. HRT can fuck someone up, mentally. But, it seems to be a blanket ban, with mental stability not being taken into account, just the label. A real shame, because I don't doubt there are many mentally stable transgender people out there who are willing to serve the country.

I do agree with you. Frankly though I don't think the USMil should have to pay for such operations and surgeries as those are elective surgeries. Frankly I'm fine if a Trans person wants to serve their country power to them. I think they should along with all prospective recruits should be tested on their mental stability and I believe recently that was introduced. 

 

For some trans people, they just need the hormones to help with gender dysphoria. Some might need the surgeries but in my opinion it's possible if that is the case either they should pay for it or maybe they should be honorably discharged.

[AshleyAshes]

12 minutes ago, wcreek said:

Frankly though I don't think the USMil should have to pay for such operations and surgeries as those are elective surgeries.

Don't mind me.  Just waiting for you to denounce the 41 million/year that the US Military spends on Viagra

 

http://nypost.com/2017/07/26/us-military-blows-millions-a-year-on-viagra-for-its-troops/

 

Or hey, wanna get serious on military waste?  Let's talk about this thing. Total program cost: 1.5 Trillion dollars.  The prototype first flew in 2000, but the production models, which have been flying since 2006, have still never been sent into combat.  Commenting that medical care for transgender soldiers is a waste of military funds in the face of massive homerages of money is like commenting "Gosh guys, I think we might be spending too much money on our NetFlix account." after squandering your entire life savings on magic beans.

 

[Nowak]

2 minutes ago, AshleyAshes said:

Or hey, wanna get serious on military waste?  Let's talk about this thing. Total program cost: 1.5 Trillion dollars.  The prototype first flew in 2000, but the production models, which have been flying since 2006, have still never been sent into combat. 

The biggest problem with the F-35 is that we've sunk so much and money into it, we can't cancel it without taking a serious economic hit. The F-35 program is easily the worst weapons program in the entire world because of that.

[PandaCopyRight]

bleep bloop, how is everyone doing? 

been a while since i have been here .... anything or anyone new?  

[AshleyAshes]

I found someone selling the recovery CD for the exact model of Pentium 3 computer that I'm trying to restore/modernize for nostalgia reasons.  ...He wants $799 USD for it.  $799 USD for a 18 year old recovery CD.

 

...I politely messaged him asking if it was a pricing mistake.