Some user are mad because Nvidia new driver (347.09) Blocked Overclocking for GTX 900M

[Khvarrioiren]

I think it may have been a change over time. This happened 3 years ago, but it was a Quadro that burst into flames.

I'm still pissed to this day, took out a 2 month old workstation that I spent over 5 grand on. Sigh. But shit happens, right?

I'm merely saying that from a business perspective.. It does make sense. I've never OCed a laptop gpu for the simple matter of heat output.

 

It's the consumers choice what he does with his property. And so far where I work all laptop returns I've had to work with so far had their faults fall under the responsibility of the OEM. And the certification process that high end Asus laptops go is goddamn rigorous, so I can very easily see that they found the clocks they set to be completely safe.

[Sheldon_King]

I think it may have been a change over time. This happened 3 years ago, but it was a Quadro that burst into flames.

I'm still pissed to this day, took out a 2 month old workstation that I spent over 5 grand on. Sigh. But shit happens, right?

I'm merely saying that from a business perspective.. It does make sense. I've never OCed a laptop gpu for the simple matter of heat output.

I am sure that would piss anyone off. 

 

I understand your input on that, but there are laptops that can take it. I know for example that this Elitebook 8560w can, as with the RAM, GPU, and CPU under full load, it maxes out at 70* and that is the CPU temp, we are talking under 60*C load temps with the Max OC on the GPU, and it does help with the render times. But again, a one case scenario here, some will not take an overclock (I can only cringe at the thought of attempting any overclock on a Thinkpad. 70* Idle temps brand new. ). 

[Prastupok]

It's the consumers choice what he does with his property. And so far where I work all laptop returns I've had to work with so far had their faults fall under the responsibility of the OEM. And the certification process that high end Asus laptops go is goddamn rigorous, so I can very easily see that they found the clocks they set to be completely safe.

I'm not necessarily saying that it's the OEM overclocks that caused this. It's more likely that ANY overclocking failure caused this.

It's their choice, sure. But Nvidia won't support it. Is this going to be another 970 debacle all over again?

[Bsmith]

so people prefer 5-10% more speed/power above 40-50% more lifespan of their hardware?

call me a idiot but i prefer more lifespan above the power/speed

[Prastupok]

I am sure that would piss anyone off.

I understand your input on that, but there are laptops that can take it. I know for example that this Elitebook 8560w can, as with the RAM, GPU, and CPU under full load, it maxes out at 70* and that is the CPU temp, we are talking under 60*C load temps with the Max OC on the GPU, and it does help with the render times. But again, a one case scenario here, some will not take an overclock (I can only cringe at the thought of attempting any overclock on a Thinkpad. 70* Idle temps brand new. ).

No doubt some can. But some can't and that's where there are issues. They can't issue drivers on a machine to machine basis.

@Bsmith isn't that EXACTLY what I said earlier?

[Khvarrioiren]

I'm not necessarily saying that it's the OEM overclocks that caused this. It's more likely that ANY overclocking failure caused this.

It's their choice, sure. But Nvidia won't support it. Is this going to be another 970 debacle all over again?

 

Well, this is in no way similar to the 970 wazoo that has been overblown to Biblic proportions for whatever reason. Doesn't every overclockable thingamajig in the world come with a print saying that the manufacturer carries no responsibility if the end client decides to overclock the product and causes it to die?

[Sheldon_King]

No doubt some can. But some can't and that's where there are issues. They can't issue drivers on a machine to machine basis.

@Bsmith isn't that EXACTLY what I said earlier?

That is not correct in the least. Before The 8000GTX/first gen FX###/#m line, you had to get your drivers from the laptop manufacturer, not Nvidia. The same could be done again.  

[Prastupok]

That is not correct in the least. Before The 8000GTX/first gen FX###/#m line, you had to get your drivers from the laptop manufacturer, not Nvidia. The same could be done again.

I shouldn't say they can't.. But they won't.

When there were a handful of laptops with dedicated GPUs, that was feasible. To have the manufacturer get the drivers, tune them on a system to system basis, and then distribute would be both slow and expensive. They won't do it now that every manufacturer under the sun offers some system(s) with dedicated.

It's the same problem with mobile phones. Updates are sent from google quickly, but any non nexus device takes eons to get updates, and new flagships are out at that point anyway, so they stop doing updates.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Prastupok

[Mitrailleuse]

how nvidia is probably feeling...

[Sheldon_King]

I shouldn't say they can't.. But they won't.

When there were a handful of laptops with dedicated GPUs, that was feasible. To have the manufacturer get the drivers, tune them on a system to system basis, and then distribute would be both slow and expensive. They won't do it now that every manufacturer under the sun offers some system(s) with dedicated.

It's the same problem with mobile phones. Updates are sent from google quickly, but any non nexus device takes eons to get updates, and new flagships are out at that point anyway, so they stop doing updates.

It is just as feesible now as it was then. Getting the updated driver is as simple as Manufacturer gets it, modifies the OC line (based on the Linux driver's behaviour, it is a 2 line code that allows or blocks overclocking and fan control (both in the same line none the less), and hand out the driver. The 7950mGTX and FX3500m Quadros, dell usually got the new driver out next day from the Nvidia release, I see no reason it could not STILL work that way. The same nvidia driver works on all the Fermi and newer cards, so the fix to allow or remove it on a manufacturer side could e done once and applied to 4+ years worth of machines (OC abaility testing would only have to be done on machine release. If it OCs well then, 6 months or 10 years later, it will still OC well). 

 

It is not the same problem with phones. Apple does not have to deal with it. As I understand it windows Phone gets updates from microsoft easily, so not a problem. Android it goes from google to the manufacturer, then to the service provider, and it is generally the SP, not the manufacturer that sits on it for so long. (For instance, Motorola have updated my phone to 5.0, as is seen on some foreign networks, but Verizon is still sitting on it for now. Moto says get it from verizon,...)(Also, that is mainly because Google owns Android. They have a talent for screwing over the market with everything). 

[Prastupok]

-snip-

You are missing the point I'm trying to make. It SHOULD be that simple, but it isn't. That's not how these companies work. In a perfect world, things would be lightning fast and manufacturers would do things as they should. But that's not how it works. The manufacturers don't have to pay a software team to modify hardware drivers in most cases anymore, and being businesses, you must realize they won't do it if they don't have to. For companies like MSI, tuning the drivers for all of their different systems would be time-consuming. If they want overclocking, how much should they allow? It's a lot of testing and working for not much of a return. Or they could charge more to fund that functionality... But then you piss of the consumer. Someone loses out, and bet your ass it won't be the companies supplying this.

It was not a perfect analogy, and I shouldn't have said phones, specifically android is what I had in mind. The updates for most carriers take an absurdly long time, because of the OEM having to make the driver fit the hardware. That is very similar to what we have here, albeit not exactly the same.

But arguing over what should be done is irrelevant. Nvidia locked it down, and that's that. I personally fully support that decision, as laptops aren't really meant to be overclocked. If you want that functionality, then hack the drivers to allow it at the cost of voiding your warranty.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Prastupok

[Pomfinator]

It's a dick move, ban-hammer type action.  But it's nonetheless justified.  

 

The thing that has to be noted is that laptop thermals degrade over time quicker than desktops, dust build-up is way harder to get rid of because of the unfriendly nature of how laptop hardware is stuffed into a chassis, external laptop coolers exist for a reason.

 

Perfect example, my old 2006 Alienware Area-51 M9750.  Core 2 Duo, GT8800M SLI.  Was a beast back in the day.  You want to know what happened to it pretty much the moment I switched back to desktop in 2010? The GPUs got so hot during light usage that it burned the motherboard.  Perfectly fine for 4 years, burns itself in the end.

[Sheldon_King]

Perfect example, my old 2006 Alienware Area-51 M9750.  Core 2 Duo, GT8800M SLI.  Was a beast back in the day.  You want to know what happened to it pretty much the moment I switched back to desktop in 2010? The GPUs got so hot during light usage that it burned the motherboard.  Perfectly fine for 4 years, burns itself in the end.

This is by far the worst example I have ever seen. You owned the laptop for 4 years and could not be bothered to disassemble even once to clean it? The problem was not your laptop, but you. (Hint, you will have thermal issues with a desktop too if you don't clean it for 4 years or more). 

 

But arguing over what should be done is irrelevant. Nvidia locked it down, and that's that. I personally fully support that decision, as laptops aren't really meant to be overclocked. If you want that functionality, then hack the drivers to allow it at the cost of voiding your warranty.

Failing to see your point on "Designed to be overclocked". Desktops are not designed to be overclocked either, and it is up to teh Vendor to allow that function (in most cases they will, with supported chips). 

 

We should probably just agree to disagree on this point. (and overclocking is all about making the chip do things it was not designed (meant) to do). 

[s3ns3]

huge laptops RMA or locked OC? ye no oc is safer. its a laptop lol

[Pomfinator]

This is by far the worst example I have ever seen. You owned the laptop for 4 years and could not be bothered to disassemble even once to clean it? The problem was not your laptop, but you. (Hint, you will have thermal issues with a desktop too if you don't clean it for 4 years or more). 

You think I'm stupid? I had someone DISASSEMBLE the thing for me and clean it at least two times, the first was a maintenance and the second was a hard drive replacement.  

[Prastupok]

This is by far the worst example I have ever seen. You owned the laptop for 4 years and could not be bothered to disassemble even once to clean it? The problem was not your laptop, but you. (Hint, you will have thermal issues with a desktop too if you don't clean it for 4 years or more).

Failing to see your point on "Designed to be overclocked". Desktops are not designed to be overclocked either, and it is up to teh Vendor to allow that function (in most cases they will, with supported chips).

We should probably just agree to disagree on this point. (and overclocking is all about making the chip do things it was not designed (meant) to do).

I'm not sure where you're getting some of this from...

CERTAIN desktop components are absolutely designed to be overclocked. Intel (not sure if they still do) offers a warranty on their CPUs for overclocking purposes. Nvidia discusses and even gives a guide on how to overclock their desktop GPUs. If you recall, they released the nTune overclock tool. AMD has overdrive, another supported overclocking tool. They wouldn't release this stuff if they didn't want you to do it. But those softwares, from people I know who tried to OC on a laptop, lock you out from using it on mobile.

Edit: Intel does still do that. It's called the tuning plan. http://click.intel.com/tuningplan/purchase-a-plan

Edited February 13, 2015 by Prastupok

[MRL]

I think the whole situation is made complicated by OEMs now... OEMs OC the GPU without NVidia approval, so NVidia comes out and says "this thing isn't meant to be OC'd".

 

At the end of the line, the one who is screwed over is the customer who bought the notebook on the good faith of the OC'd specs without knowing they are not meant to be OC'd in the first place.

 

If I'm going to point my fingers at anybody, I would point my fingers to OEMs because they are doing what is not supposed to be done and it is their responsibility to rectify this issue either by issuing their own driver versions if approved by nvidia (which I think these OEMs and nvidia should make a deal on the warranty side) or compensate these customers with something.

 

I am definitely against any kind of OC on notebooks but seeing how beefy is the cooler on some I would say let the OEMs do if they think they can do it and operational guarantee should fall on the OEMs.

[SpaceCore]

If the drivers get hacked and the community gets their hands on it, they've done nothing but piss off their consumers lol.

[Prastupok]

If the drivers get hacked and the community gets their hands on it, they've done nothing but piss off their consumers lol.

If the drivers get hacked, then Nvidia doesn't have to support it. They very well could void the warranty.

People on here are thinking from just one angle... You need to look at it from both a reliability, performance, AND a business perspective.

As I said before... Are you willing to trade 40% of the life of the component for 10% performance?

I do honestly believe Nvidia is doing something good here. Sure it's to cover their ass, but it watches out for the customer too.

[ReTV]

Why... why in the hell would you overclock on a laptop?

I have an Asus 750jk. It features a 860M. The GPU was factory-underclocked. Using MSI AB one can unlock the GPU and get some really decent framerates in not too demanding games (GRID2 etc.). Overheating is a non-issue as the temps stay well within reason.

[Sheldon_King]

You think I'm stupid? I had someone DISASSEMBLE the thing for me and clean it at least two times, the first was a maintenance and the second was a hard drive replacement.  

You never said anything about cleaning it in your OP there. Also, It sounds a lot like you ran it overheated for years (if you kept it clean, as you have now indicated). If not, the problem probably lies with Alienware, not Nvidia (assuming you had it repaired when the G80m lawsuit happened), if not, that was your issue. 

 

I'm not sure where you're getting some of this from...

CERTAIN desktop components are absolutely designed to be overclocked. Intel (not sure if they still do) offers a warranty on their CPUs for overclocking purposes. Nvidia discusses and even gives a guide on how to overclock their desktop GPUs. If you recall, they released the nTune overclock tool. AMD has overdrive, another supported overclocking tool. They wouldn't release this stuff if they didn't want you to do it. But those softwares, from people I know who tried to OC on a laptop, lock you out from using it on mobile.

Edit: Intel does still do that. It's called the tuning plan. http://click.intel.com/tuningplan/purchase-a-plan

Designing something to overclock, and allowing it to overclock is completely different. Are you saying that all Core 2 and before overclocks should not have happened? (Clue, the i5 and i7 launch added unlocked multipliers (a single i5 and i7 on the LGA1156 and a single i7 on LGA1366). GPUs, all WILL overclock. Are they designed to do so? No. The came chip, be it a AMD or Nvidia chip is the same. What 3rd parties (MSI for example) do with it does not change what the chip was designed to do. Until they launch a dedicated chip that is not a simple microcode edit (for intel CPUs, that is all the unlocked multi is. A 2600 and a 2600k is going to perform the same at the same speed, as they are the exact same chip).  YOu are mistaking a warranty edit (all the ITP is, changes the terms of the warranty), for complete support of design.  

 

It is no different in this case from taking a 351 and saying it is DESIGNED to make 500 HP because Ford warrants the block to that, ven though it never rolled off teh line anywhere near that. 

[FakezZ]

you shouldnt overclock a mobile gpu they are more over likely to overheat do to lack of room and  having less air to cool them. I cant blame nividia,  although I guess if you want too kill your notebook you should be allowed to do so.

Unless you fiddle with voltages, the temperature increase is not that big. Also, the GPU will throttle if the temps go very high, so it will not harm anything really. This is all just bullshit NVIDIA damage-control. They are really on it lately.

[Toddwjp]

honestly this makes sense, its not just the gpu heat that has to be considered in a laptop, the temperature of one component significantly affects the others in the system because there so close together

[sof006]

All i'm going to say is.... LOL GET A REAL COMPUTER.

 

 

There I said it, desktops are far superior when it comes to doing anything gaming related, laptops are meant for other stuff like what i'm doing now. In my bed typing this on my laptop, I game on my desktop however.

[Prastupok]

-snip-

First... What the hell is this supposed to mean? > "The came chip, be it a AMD or Nvidia chip is the same"

Where you are getting some of what I said is beyond me... And some of it is making circles around the issue, if it makes sense at all. When did I mention a core 2? I didn't. I'm not saying they shouldn't have happened. This argument, may I remind you, is about laptop GPUs. Desktop GPUs are supported to be overclocked. You'd be a fool to think they aren't. They wouldn't put the time into designing software tools specifically to do so if they weren't. They wouldn't add features specifically for overclocking if they weren't.

Let's use CPUs for instance, as it will be a lot easier to get my point across on them. If NO CPU is designed for overclocking (something you eluded to), why would Intel even bother releasing K chips? They are unlocked specifically for overclocking. If that isn't being designed for the purpose of overclocking, I don't know what is. Unless there is some other reason to have an unlocked multiplier, other than overclocks, that I don't know about. If that's the case, please educate me. The warranty covers them in the event of damage related to your bad overclock.

-With the exception of having a desktop processor in a very, VERY small percentage of laptops, you will not find any unlocked CPU in a notebook.

Desktop GPUs are the same way. The drivers allow such modifications to be made, because it has the cooling and power to handle it. Your mileage may differ from one card to the next in how much OC you'll get, of course. Again, the manufacturers wouldn't give you the tools to do it if they didn't build the cards to have that functionality, should you want it. This is NOT to say you can't kill a desktop GPU. You can.

Laptops are very restricted compared to desktops. You have a very small amount of room to make things work in, and the power brick you get with it is what you get. There is no supplemental cooling (Beyond a cooling pad), and there is no PSU upgrade for stability. Cooling on a desktop is done with 80 - 140mm fans on average. We are talking around 45-50mm fans, depending on the notebook. You also are limited to two in most cases. Case fans, you can add on, you can liquid cool. You don't get that in a laptop. There are many constraints just to get the system working properly even at stock. Adding even more stress onto the components is a recipe for disaster. Intel/AMD/Nvidia know that, so they lock the functionality out of their own tools. Now, the only difference is that Nvidia is locking it down at a close-to-hardware level to prevent other tools from bypassing it.

No one wants to deal with people's expensive gaming notebooks crashing left and right, and getting replacements because they weren't cautious when doing their OC. A lot of people aren't educated, so they see the shiny product advertisement that you can squeeze more out of it for free, so they crank it to 11 immediately instead of doing OCs the right way. Then the notebook dies, and the customer wants another one. It's not worth it to them to deal with this, or have their vendors deal with it, for the small minority that knows how to properly overclock.

I overclock my desktops, but I won't touch my laptops. That's about all I have to offer you. If you still want to argue with me about this, then bring some compelling argument as to why they should allow it. There hasn't been much of one yet.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Prastupok