Quinnspericy: Mod of /r/gaming el_chupacupcake pushed to step down after Zoe Quinn update.

[ZeroBreaker]

RTU got hit with a DMCA complaint for one of his vids too? (Not that I'm a huge fan of his either)

 

No dude, watch the vid, the whole thing is a skype call with that matt guy who got the takedown. Honestly, they seem to have the most unbiased conversation ive seen, despite their motive to fight against zoe.

[Mooshi]

Holy shit, this thread is still alive?

[ZeroBreaker]

Holy shit, this thread is still alive?

 

Yeah. Considering that zoe, phil, and the rest of their crowd have been censoring and deleting over and over to try and get the story to fade away, and game media have not covered the issue for the same reason, it's best to keep the conversation fresh. That is, of course, conversation about journalism and developers and conflict of interest. Not the whole 'private life of zoe quinn' bullshit which is apparently what this is about.

[Scionyde]

No dude, watch the vid, the whole thing is a skype call with that matt guy who got the takedown. Honestly, they seem to have the most unbiased conversation ive seen, despite their motive to fight against zoe.

 

Ah, I gotcha. I'll watch it later, I'm at work and I forgot to bring my earbuds with me today.

[Mooshi]

Yeah. Considering that zoe, phil, and the rest of their crowd have been censoring and deleting over and over to try and get the story to fade away, and game media have not covered the issue for the same reason, it's best to keep the conversation fresh. That is, of course, conversation about journalism and developers and conflict of interest. Not the whole 'private life of zoe quinn' bullshit which is apparently what this is about.

 

Yeah, the constant discussion of Zoe Quinn's personal life isn't going to lead to anything new. We already know she's a harlot, the lack of integrity should be the larger issue. The censorship and blatant trying to push this under the rug by 'journalists' is the issue we should put more focus on. If anything, Zoe' tweets and her SJW fans are just tweeting facepalm BS all over the place like a damn 14 year old. That stuff is too dumb to care about right now.

 

I've unsubbed from Rich a long time ago, but I'm forcing myself to listen to the video.

[ZeroBreaker]

Yeah, the constant discussion of Zoe Quinn's personal life isn't going to lead to anything new. We already know she's a harlot, the lack of integrity should be the larger issue. The censorship and blatant trying to push this under the rug by 'journalists' is the issue we should put more focus on. If anything, Zoe' tweets and her SJW fans are just tweeting facepalm BS all over the place like a damn 14 year old. That stuff is too dumb to care about right now.

 

I've unsubbed from Rich a long time ago, but I'm forcing myself to listen to the video.

 

Absolutely! It's what i was trying to get to, and i imagine all the others in this conversation were trying to get to as well. What we need now is the issue of journalism and developers' relationships to be explored deeply, in which case zoe is an example, not the issue itself but a consequence of the issue. Unfortunately the censorship on reddit, and the constant attack from zoe's defenders means there is nowhere to have such a conversation, as proven by the 8 pages on this topic being dedicated to establishing zoe's guilt (a known fact in the swathes of evidence) rather than the true issue.

We NEED this discussion to happen. I will paraphrase mundanematt, in the video : In any other form of media, this hint of any scandal like this, and the closeness of the times, the lack of clarity to his boss would have left nathan grayson terminated immediately. Instead the community gets a reassurance that all is well because nathan said its ok. This corruption undermines us all.

[Colonel_Gerdauf]

-snip-

-snip-

-snip-

-snip-

 

 

This argument is going nowhere. The accusations you are throwing at me (ignoring posts; stated repetition; being one-sided; etc.) are the same actions you are doing yourselves. I will not accept the merits of your arguments when you do not accept the merits of mine. We are not even seeing the issue in the same angle. I wanted to post a TLDR to clarify things; but at this point, I doubt that it will contribute much of anything, considering your  "one way or the highway" approach. So, with that in mind, I will call this stalemate charade a draw. Nobody is able to claim victory, and those that do, are getting ahead of themselves.

You can keep your opinions, and I can keep mine. Is that a deal? Or do you still have a problem with it?

 

This is why we cannot have nice things; In situations like this, even the slightest of objections gets pummeled into oblivion.

[suicidalfranco]

Finally the end (as of writing) of this thread! All I can say is:

Best. Drama. Ever!!!

Even better than school days, I should really start to follow this 1st world problem dramas they are freakin amazing!

[Mooshi]

-words-

 

Wait, wat. What did I do?

[Colonel_Gerdauf]

Wait, wat. What did I do?

 

You talked about the thread being active when it should not be, and I quoted you to clarify the end of this debate.

[ZeroBreaker]

This argument is going nowhere. The accusations you are throwing at me (ignoring posts; stated repetition; being one-sided; etc.) are the same actions you are doing yourselves. I will not accept the merits of your arguments when you do not accept the merits of mine. We are not even seeing the issue in the same angle. I wanted to post a TLDR to clarify things; but at this point, I doubt that it will contribute much of anything, considering your  "one way or the highway" approach. So, with that in mind, I will call this stalemate charade a draw. Nobody is able to claim victory, and those that do, are getting ahead of themselves.

You can keep your opinions, and I can keep mine. Is that a deal? Or do you still have a problem with it?

 

This is why we cannot have nice things; In situations like this, even the slightest of objections gets pummeled into oblivion.

 

There is no argument.The Zoe incident has revealed there is truckloads of corruption going on in gaming media. As i mentioned earlier - she is the consequence of an issue, not an issue herself (at least not to the gaming community). The fact you are not willing to have the discussion on the underlying issue is your problem. This is why your argument doesn't hold water.

You werent contributing anything to the discussion in the first place, you were trying to stop it from taking place alltogether. so by all means, bugger off.

[Mooshi]

I like to look at it this way. Imagine if Zoe was a bandage for a bad wound, this is basically pulling back the bandage and revealing the seriousness of the wound that a bandaid is not enough to heal. Zoe was the tip of the iceberg for something far more serious that is being uncovered. The gaming community deserves to know if the dev of a game they like has integrity or is a petty asshole who insults people over twitter like a lunatic.

[bogus]

snip

I'm sorry for the late reply. I'll try to be short, and bare this in mind - I understand completly what you are saying, but I just think you are focusing on the wrong issue.

1), 2) & 3) - Reports of rape and rape claims are very serious accusations that shouldn't be discusted in blogs, twitter, or in any article written by anyone. It's something that should be directed to the police and a investigation should be open. Remember with Assange and the rape claims? He escalated that issue to ridiculous proportions to the point of political conspiracy due to WikiLeaks and the media loved it - all because he screwd two girls and apparently/or not he made a hole in the condoms he used. He is still wanted in Sweeden to answer for the accusations, he hasn't even been found guilty or not.

So be carefull with this claims.

But you it the nail right in the head, wich point out to the main issue IMO - ""gaming journalists" love telling everyone how oppressed women are". They are not Gaming Journalists. They are Sensationalist Journalists. This issue is probably a gold mine for views, that's why they insist on it. And worst: there is a huge population who surely reads this crap. And if you have a victim that has presence in a "revolutionary movement" as Women Game Development (imo this is non-subject)... it's just great. It comes together into massive views, viral content, etc... all to get add revenues.

Wich I report again to: Journalism business model. You want articles that give you views, if they are truth or not, they don't care. They care for views.

That's why I say this is focusing on the wrong problem: they are just talking about a shitty person that did shitty things, who happens to be a girl that makes everything to get her way. This shouldn't be news material. This is a common thing, it could be the girl next door. Being a game developer is just a small part of the context... it's her profession.

What should be the news is: tech journalism is getting so cheap that not only they sell out for money and gifts - they are starting to sell themselfs with such a common thing as sex - all for the sake o views.

4), 5) & 6) - Again she is a shitty person - I agree with you 100%! Yet how many huge companys, some of them beloved by people who hate this girl, that do the same thing about content blocking & censorship. That's the wrong problem. The actual problem is youtube & reddit policys that protect this behavior due to loopholes in their policys.

How many Indie gogo and Kickstarter campaingns get fully funded and the pitch isn't fullfilled? The actual problem is that this crowdfunding platforms just care to have successfull funded campaingns to get their cut, even if they are impossible to achieve. They care for the ones with the most viral potential, not the ones who can actually be turned into a product/service. They shouldn't be GETTING THE CROWDFUNDING CUT, INSTEAD THEY SHOULD GET A CUT FROM THE SUCCESS OF THE FUNDED COMPANY.

How many internet bullys you see on a daily basis? You just have to give value to what it's valuable - and internet users are valuing sensationalist content - just like the so called OLD MEDIA.

7) I agree with you 100%. Yet they don't, and the reason is simple: anyone can be called a journalist and there is no consequence to being a bad internet journalist. There is no license or union like the actual Journalists are bound to, wich can be revoked if they are found being unethical.

Even if you are spoted out as bad internet journalist, the wrath of the internet falls on you for some days then what? Silence. The internet forgets rather quickly, just like the raction time. Even so, you can be anonymous and hide behind a nick/fake name and still writte content to make money.

The internet doesn't forgive, but the it does forget.

Maybe we just value too much the oppinion of internet journalists? Maybe we value too much their content? I think this are some of the questions to answer.

8) & 9) Again you have plenty examples of such behavior by companys wich we support by buying their products. They have armys of lawyers, oppinion leaders, moles in communitys and most of all, they have money. Lots of money.

If this shitty cheap and small girl as managed to achive this by something as simple as sex and influence due to human relationships ... imagine what the Big Boys and their pockets full of money can do.

I wont dismiss any of the links you provided - even the rape allegations, wich I honestly don't care and find a bit irrelevant - IMO this is just a decoy that is pointing out to the wrong problem: the issue is not a small shitty and cheap girl with some friends that influenced some journalists, but it's that anyone can be a internet journalist and therefore there is no penatly for unethical behavior, and they are selling themselfs cheap when they shouldn't be selling themselfs at all. Plus the internet journalism business model promotes unethical behavior.

tl;dr: If this small piece of shit of a girl achieved this by fucking around - IMAGINE WHAT MULTI MILLION DOLLARS CORPORATIONS CAN ACHIEVE. All the hardware reviews, games reviews, tech articles, and any content related to products and services are vulnerable to be biased, all because of a business model and the lack of consequences for unethical behavior. 

What we saw here is just a example, we can call it a "new low". Gaming/tech//internet jourlism is becoming so cheap that they are starting to sell themselfs for something as sex. Brace yourselfs, internet journalism crysis is coming.

The worst of all is that the internet, most precisely, the gaming community is loving and valuing this. That's the biggest shame. They are getting views to cover sensationalism, when the real news should be about the journalism reaching the rock bottom. 

 

[Mooshi]

 

Ow, my eyes...

[bogus]

Sorry mate, I tryed to keep it short... but this subject is reaching ridiculous proportions and it's feeding, fueling and promoting the same guys who caused this.

[Mooshi]

Sorry mate, I tryed to keep it short... but this subject is reaching ridiculous proportions and it's feeding, fueling and promoting the same guys who caused this.

 

I think we can agree the entire thing is mental.

[LAwLz]

This argument is going nowhere. The accusations you are throwing at me (ignoring posts; stated repetition; being one-sided; etc.) are the same actions you are doing yourselves. I will not accept the merits of your arguments when you do not accept the merits of mine. We are not even seeing the issue in the same angle. I wanted to post a TLDR to clarify things; but at this point, I doubt that it will contribute much of anything, considering your  "one way or the highway" approach. So, with that in mind, I will call this stalemate charade a draw. Nobody is able to claim victory, and those that do, are getting ahead of themselves.

You can keep your opinions, and I can keep mine. Is that a deal? Or do you still have a problem with it?

 

This is why we cannot have nice things; In situations like this, even the slightest of objections gets pummeled into oblivion.

But your arguments are bullshit and I have explained why. Your argument are basically two things.

1) "She couldn't have done it because she is only 1 person"

and

2) "We should just ignore it"

 

The first one I have explained and proven is wrong, and the second one is just stupid because that is exactly what she wants, and it doesn't solve anything. Your "I will call this stalemate charade a draw" reminds me of this.

I have posted a mountain of evidence and all you got is "we shouldn't talk about it". You can keep your opinion if you want, but if you look at my posts you will see that they contain mostly facts and very little opinion. I just want everyone to be perfectly clear about that.

[Colonel_Gerdauf]

But your arguments are bullshit and I have explained why. Your argument are basically two things.

1) "She couldn't have done it because she is only 1 person"

and

2) "We should just ignore it"

 

The first one I have explained and proven is wrong, and the second one is just stupid because that is exactly what she wants, and it doesn't solve anything. Your "I will call this stalemate charade a draw" reminds me of this.

I have posted a mountain of evidence and all you got is "we shouldn't talk about it". You can keep your opinion if you want, but if you look at my posts you will see that they contain mostly facts and very little opinion. I just want everyone to be perfectly clear about that.

 

Seriously? Are we still doing this? I said that we are done. Your drive to be "right" serves to contradict everything you have said up to now. You were bickering with bogus and others, over the definition of DLC. You were bickering with Builder and myself with the Apple warranty supposedly being a POS. And now you are arguing with me, bogus, and ionbasa, over whether or not the "Quinnspiracy" issues add up. You are in no authority to call a victory, when you are only representing one side of the issue. I tried to look at it in a general perspective and see both sides with open eyes, but that is apparently is not in your dictionary, so whatever. This is a draw. That means nobody wins, it is as simple as that.

 

I have already thrown the towel in this nonsensical spitting contest; It is time for you to do the same. This issue needs to die out.

[ZeroBreaker]

Seriously? Are we still doing this? I said that we are done. Your drive to be "right" serves to contradict everything you have said up to now. You were bickering with bogus and others, over the definition of DLC. You were bickering with Builder and myself with the Apple warranty supposedly being a POS. And now you are arguing with me, bogus, and ionbasa, over whether or not the "Quinnspiracy" issues add up. You are in no authority to call a victory, when you are only representing one side of the issue. I tried to look at it in a general perspective and see both sides with open eyes, but that is apparently is not in your dictionary, so whatever. This is a draw. That means nobody wins, it is as simple as that.

 

I have already thrown the towel in this nonsensical spitting contest; It is time for you to do the same. This issue needs to die out.

 

Fucking hell mate, with every comment you seem to lose iq points. He has EVERY right to claim a 'victory', even though he does no such thing, because every argument he has made has been backed up by fact that you refuse to acknowledge. You refuse to acknowledge that the facebook messages are true. You refuse to acknowledge that game media are silencing their reporters. You refuse to acknowledge the censorship in reddit. You refuse to acknowledge the paypal shit about rebel jam.

You refusing to acknowledge something drenched in fact does not make it false, it makes you seem stupid.

 

How are you seeing both sides with open eyes, when you yourself said that regardless of evidence you would stand by your belief?

 

Finally, i do sincerely hope the 'issue' you are talking about is your petty resistance to lawlz' argument, because if so fair enough. If you are talking about the issue of journalistic integrity, i refer you to a previous post i made - bugger off. You have already shown your lack of argument, and it seems you are trying your hardest to show a lack of intelligence as well.

 

Edit: It isnt a fucking draw if you don't address his points to satisfaction. You fucking gave up, if you wish to use the game analogy. You therefore lost.

[Colonel_Gerdauf]

-snip- 

 

With the level of hostility and short-sightedness that you represent, you should stop talking. Pull yourself together. I have represented my arguments, you brushed it off and said that it was "bullshit". LAwLz has represented his arguments, and all I see is logical loopholes, while you are just barking, and asking for trouble. That means that we cannot come to an agreement. That is a stalemate, and therefore makes it a draw.

 

You can continue mocking me as you wish, I am simply going to ignore you.

[Misanthrope]

I've always been fine with real feminists. I think everyone should be treated equally (as much as possible and as long as it's reasonable) no matter gender, sexual orientation, race etc. Again, I am a feminist myself.

That's the exact same reason as to why I dislike the pseudo feminists though, because they don't want equal treatment. They want special treatment, and they often use things like race or gender as ad hominem attacks, for example "you're not allowed to comment on this because you are a straight white male". I am strongly against sexism and that's why I am against this kind of bullshit.

Zoe is a terrible person no matter her gender, race, sexual orientation or whatever is. I feel the same way about Anita by the way.

Yeah I'm not serious don't worry just busting your balls a little dude

[ZeroBreaker]

With the level of hostility and short-sightedness that you represent, you should stop talking. Pull yourself together. I have represented my arguments, you brushed it off and said that it was "bullshit". LAwLz has represented his arguments, and all I see is logical loopholes, while you are just barking, and asking for trouble. That means that we cannot come to an agreement. That is a stalemate, and therefore makes it a draw.

 

You can continue mocking me as you wish, I am simply going to ignore you.

 

Great! Wow, i didn't expect you to manage to get your argument together!

so...

 

Where is it?

Cos you didn't mention any logical loopholes when replying to lawlz. Thats a bit mean, if you found a flaw in his reasoning surely you should tell him so he can correct his worldview?

And what trouble am i asking for, you absolute plonker? I was last told i was 'asking for trouble' years ago, and it was a threat. Surely your not threatening me? On the internet?

OH FUCK IM IN TROUBLE NOW

Im gonna call phil, and kotaku, and legions of virgins -

OH SHIT IM NOT ZOE

Fuck me, im done for

 

And no. In a game of chess, if you are in a dire situation where you cannot make another move (in this analogy, a move would be a logical argument) against a stacked board (of well reasoned arguments) and you simply stop playing, giving up, you have lost. No fucking stalemate. We aren't playing by your made up 'i'm right because i say so, i win' bullshit.

[LAwLz]

1), 2) & 3) - Reports of rape and rape claims are very serious accusations that shouldn't be discusted in blogs, twitter, or in any article written by anyone. It's something that should be directed to the police and a investigation should be open. Remember with Assange and the rape claims? He escalated that issue to ridiculous proportions to the point of political conspiracy due to WikiLeaks and the media loved it - all because he screwd two girls and apparently/or not he made a hole in the condoms he used. He is still wanted in Sweeden to answer for the accusations, he hasn't even been found guilty or not.

So be carefull with this claims.

Her definition of rape is a very flawed one, which is why I was very careful with specifying that it is only rape according to her own definition, not by my definition. (The feminist movement has twisted the word rape so much it's insulting to real rape victims).

According to her definition, if you are cheating on someone and are having sex with both, you are raping the one you are in the relationship with. Her reasoning for this is that you are withholding information that would cause the person to otherwise not have sex with you, and therefore it is "rape".

 

Wich I report again to: Journalism business model. You want articles that give you views, if they are truth or not, they don't care. They care for views.

That's how gaming journalism is now (it used to be much stricter) but not other types of journalism. If you go back a few posts you will find the journalists ethical standards. It is a very serious job and sadly we got some clowns ruining it.

Also, they are not reporting on this. If they reported on this they could have gotten many views, but they decided not to because the backlash from the SJWs (Kotaku's code demographic it seems) and lose views in the long run.

 

4), 5) & 6) - Again she is a shitty person - I agree with you 100%! Yet how many huge companys, some of them beloved by people who hate this girl, that do the same thing about content blocking & censorship. That's the wrong problem. The actual problem is youtube & reddit policys that protect this behavior due to loopholes in their policys.

Well the mod on Reddit was abusing his power and I think he is no longer a mod there. Anyway, I don't think you should blame YouTube or other websites for having a flawed system. Blame the ones that abuse the flaw. They are at least as guilty.

 

How many Indie gogo and Kickstarter campaingns get fully funded and the pitch isn't fullfilled? The actual problem is that this crowdfunding platforms just care to have successfull funded campaingns to get their cut, even if they are impossible to achieve. They care for the ones with the most viral potential, not the ones who can actually be turned into a product/service. They shouldn't be GETTING THE CROWDFUNDING CUT, INSTEAD THEY SHOULD GET A CUT FROM THE SUCCESS OF THE FUNDED COMPANY.

How many internet bullys you see on a daily basis? You just have to give value to what it's valuable - and internet users are valuing sensationalist content - just like the so called OLD MEDIA.

I don't really see how this is relevant. I mean, I kind of agree with you but crowd funding is not the issue here.

 

7) I agree with you 100%. Yet they don't, and the reason is simple: anyone can be called a journalist and there is no consequence to being a bad internet journalist. There is no license or union like the actual Journalists are bound to, wich can be revoked if they are found being unethical.

Even if you are spoted out as bad internet journalist, the wrath of the internet falls on you for some days then what? Silence. The internet forgets rather quickly, just like the raction time. Even so, you can be anonymous and hide behind a nick/fake name and still writte content to make money.

The internet doesn't forgive, but the it does forget.

 

Maybe we just value too much the oppinion of internet journalists? Maybe we value too much their content? I think this are some of the questions to answer.

If a journalist get enough crap it will damage his or her reputation enough for people to not take that person's work seriously anymore. Hell if enough drama is caused the bad writer might get fired.

The problem is not really about valuing the opinion of a reporter. The problem is that they can give out false information and they can also withhold information. That creates misinformation and/or ignorance for everyone, not just their readers.

Just imagine on CNN started reporting about wars which didn't exist, or if all media outlets banded together and refused to publish for example the findings of Edward Snowden. That is what we are seeing in gaming journalism, but about less important subjects.

 

8) & 9) Again you have plenty examples of such behavior by companys wich we support by buying their products. They have armys of lawyers, oppinion leaders, moles in communitys and most of all, they have money. Lots of money.

If this shitty cheap and small girl as managed to achive this by something as simple as sex and influence due to human relationships ... imagine what the Big Boys and their pockets full of money can do.

I wont dismiss any of the links you provided - even the rape allegations, wich I honestly don't care and find a bit irrelevant - IMO this is just a decoy that is pointing out to the wrong problem: the issue is not a small shitty and cheap girl with some friends that influenced some journalists, but it's that anyone can be a internet journalist and therefore there is no penatly for unethical behavior, and they are selling themselfs cheap when they shouldn't be selling themselfs at all. Plus the internet journalism business model promotes unethical behavior.

Well I don't think it's fair to just point fingers towards big companies and say they are doing worse things, implying that we shouldn't care about Zoe. I think there are several layers of issues here and what Zoe has done to for example make people donate money to her own personal PayPal (when they think they are donating to a game jam) is just one of the layers. Gaming journalism is another layer.

I miss the old dags of PC Gamer. A few weeks ago we cleaned out on garage and found my brother's old PC Gamer collection. I think the oldest one we found was near the end of 1999 and he had pretty much every single number up to 2004. I kind of regret throwing them away now because I had a lot of fun looking through them, and they were really good. Gaming journalism has really gone downhill in the last decade...

 

 

You and I usually don't get along very well bogus, but I have to say you said some pretty good things in that post. I still disagree with you on some key things though.

[Colonel_Gerdauf]

-snip-

 

Did I say I win? No I did not. You believe that your facts have a higher level of importance, just because you believe them. The general reality does not like work like that. Again, I have stated my points on the matter. Look back at the thread; I have said plenty of things to object your claims. Because you do not agree with it, that does not mean that they can be brushed aside. I have said some things, it gets ignored as if it was nothing. You have said some things, I see problems with it. When you have a constant back and forth, with nobody changing their minds, this becomes a stalemate. Since neither side (although I am neutral, which makes this hilarious) will admit defeat, the only logical thing thing to do to end the conflict is to call a draw. I certainly did not raise the white flag, do not mistake me here. Again, do not be so short-sighted, and try to look at things in the more general picture.

 

I said that you are asking for trouble, because you are making high-profile statements. And high-profile statements will gather a lot of attention, and help shape the opinions of a good portion of people respectively. When they see this issue, and then see you afterwards, they will see as a passive-aggressive manchild.

 

For god's sake, just let this go! I have ended the argument (deny it as you wish), and I have no interest in getting into a meta-argument. Especially not with someone as hot-headed as you.

[LAwLz]

Seriously? Are we still doing this? I said that we are done. Your drive to be "right" serves to contradict everything you have said up to now. You were bickering with bogus and others, over the definition of DLC. You were bickering with Builder and myself with the Apple warranty supposedly being a POS. And now you are arguing with me, bogus, and ionbasa, over whether or not the "Quinnspiracy" issues add up. You are in no authority to call a victory, when you are only representing one side of the issue. I tried to look at it in a general perspective and see both sides with open eyes, but that is apparently is not in your dictionary, so whatever. This is a draw. That means nobody wins, it is as simple as that.

 

I have already thrown the towel in this nonsensical spitting contest; It is time for you to do the same. This issue needs to die out.

Oh please, stick to the subject at hand (on a side note though, I never said their warranty was a POS, I said it wasn't as good as people made it sound).

I don't think you are impartial, and that's why we are still having this conversation. Your two arguments are flawed and support Zoe. You are telling everyone to do exactly what she wants. That's not what I'd call unbiased. Even in this post you are trying to make people stop talking about this, which is a real issue and should be discussed.

 

 

 

You have already shown your lack of argument, and it seems you are trying your hardest to show a lack of intelligence as well.

I have to admit that made me smile. But seriously, let's try to keep it civil. The last thing we need is some drama between LTT members.

 

LAwLz has represented his arguments, and all I see is logical loopholes, while you are just barking, and asking for trouble.

What loopholes exactly? I would like to have them pointed out so I can fill them in for you.

 

 

 

Yeah I'm not serious don't worry just busting your balls a little dude

I know I know.

I didn't mean to come off as irritated/annoyed/angry.

Although it is kind of annoying seeing my named capitalized the wrong way...