Another shining example of Steam's shit customer support and ridiculous policies!

[Camul]

http://www.reddit.com/r/GlobalOffensive/comments/286ohk/steam_supports_reply_after_market_bug_that_caused/

 

If it wasn't for the sales and the fact it's the most heard of platform I don't think anyone would put up with Steam. The client is slow, the android app is shit, the customer support is the worst I've ever seen, their policies are ridiculous and clearly they don't give a shit about customers that they're not even willing to take responsibly for their own fuck up, which lost a guy a $80 item.

[Ren]

First reply looks automated, second looks like an actual reply, and the top comment on that post has a very good point.

 

 

I wouldn't delve too deeply into a complaint about $80 lost when Steam is a company that deals with millions of dollars annually.

 

 

To construct my post a bit better, let me explain..

 

If Steam were to allow refunds on virtual items for currency, you could look at a lot more problems. I think that duplications can happen any time but it's far less common now than it was years ago across many games, ones that do have physical value for some of their virtual goods. It's not common, the bug, otherwise it would be fixed immediately. I think the important part of this situation is to look at the rate of speed that which Steam fixes issues such as market errors. Shit happens, I'd be pissed at $80 gone for no reason (it's happened to me on Amazon 3 times - physical items and I still don't get my money back).

 

Really, though, you shouldn't be staring at the customer support replies and stating that Valve is crap at customer support. Policy is policy, which can be changed but is it worth it? I don't think so.. Like I said, Steam deals with so many transactions that they could end up losing more by allowing returns or refunds than you would if every customer that lost money with a rare bug stopped buying from Steam.

 

 

- Changed Valve to Steam.. Too much Dota..

[beebskadoo]

Steam is far from the best solution, it's just the biggest solution.

People hate on origin even though it looks and runs better than steam does. Steam kinda sucks...

[Osmium]

I agree with @Ren /the top comment guy. The bug should not exist but if they allowed him his item back this could be abused by people like in TF2. Where do you draw the line really? The guy who bought the knife did nothing wrong nor did the "victim". This is Valve's fuck up but at the same time they really can't do anything about it.

[Camul]

Steam is far from the best solution, it's just the biggest solution.

People hate on origin even though it looks and runs better than steam does. Steam kinda sucks...

This. Steam is becoming further and further down the line of places that I actually buy games from. I wish they would sort their shit out, it's not like they're incapable of doing so, they just don't want to.

[Camul]

I agree with @Ren /the top comment guy. The bug should not exist but if they allowed him his item back this could be abused by people like in TF2. Where do you draw the line really? The guy who bought the knife did nothing wrong nor did the "victim". This is Valve's fuck up but at the same time they really can't do anything about it.

They could either reverse the transaction or they could reimburse him so he can buy a new one. They should draw the line when the fix the bug.

[Camul]

First reply looks automated, second looks like an actual reply, and the top comment on that post has a very good point.

 

 

I wouldn't delve too deeply into a complaint about $80 lost when Steam is a company that deals with millions of dollars annually.

 

 

To construct my post a bit better, let me explain..

 

If Steam were to allow refunds on virtual items for currency, you could look at a lot more problems. I think that duplications can happen any time but it's far less common now than it was years ago across many games, ones that do have physical value for some of their virtual goods. It's not common, the bug, otherwise it would be fixed immediately. I think the important part of this situation is to look at the rate of speed that which Steam fixes issues such as market errors. Shit happens, I'd be pissed at $80 gone for no reason (it's happened to me on Amazon 3 times - physical items and I still don't get my money back).

 

Really, though, you shouldn't be staring at the customer support replies and stating that Valve is crap at customer support. Policy is policy, which can be changed but is it worth it? I don't think so.. Like I said, Steam deals with so many transactions that they could end up losing more by allowing returns or refunds than you would if every customer that lost money with a rare bug stopped buying from Steam.

 

 

- Changed Valve to Steam.. Too much Dota..

I think anyone that has ever used Steam Support has said that Valve fucking sucks at customer support. If they loose money it's their own fault for not fixing the issue.

[Osmium]

They could either reverse the transaction or they could reimburse him so he can buy a new one. They should draw the line when the fix the bug.

 

But the guy who bought it did nothing wrong. Taking it away from him would be unfair. And the line was already drawn before the last time a bug was fixed. I guarantee you this is not the last bug like this that will ever happen so you can't just say "after this one".

[Camul]

But the guy who bought it did nothing wrong. Taking it away from him would be unfair. And the line was already drawn before the last time a bug was fixed. I guarantee you this is not the last bug like this that will ever happen so you can't just say "after this one".

It's far less fair on the person that lost something in the beginning because of Valve's fuck up. Also, the bug clearly wasn't fixed, because it just happened.

[Osmium]

It's far less fair on the person that lost something in the beginning because of Valve's fuck up. Also, the bug clearly wasn't fixed, because it just happened.

 

I am not talking about this bug but in a more general sense. I am just saying there are tons of bugs that we simply don't know about so we can't just call it here and say "alright it is fixed forever nobody will have problems!". They fucked up, yeah we get that but there is no real solution. If you take the guy's knife you will have other people making angry reddit posts on how bad Valve sucks because they took his knife, people will be pissed off either way.

[CodeLife]

That sucks. This issue happened to my friend about a month ago, he contacted steam an they basically said that there was nothing they could do. They recommended selling items though the website to prevent these glitches. So yeah, that sucked. Then hope came..

MrTweetDay a well known CSGO YouTuber seen his reddit post and added my friend and gave him the item that it sold for £0.60 (Gut knife FN), which was very kind.

Good luck to that guy.

[Camul]

I am not talking about this bug but in a more general sense. I am just saying there are tons of bugs that we simply don't know about so we can't just call it here and say "alright it is fixed forever nobody will have problems!". They fucked up, yeah we get that but there is no real solution. If you take the guy's knife you will have other people making angry reddit posts on how bad Valve sucks because they took his knife, people will be pissed off either way.

People deserve to be pissed off at Valve for this. That doesn't mean they should do nothing. They should do what's right and reverse the transaction.

[mr moose]

In 2008 dutch courts accepted that there must be a protectable digital property right which was infringed upon and two teens were convicted of theft of virtual property.

 

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=0CD4QFjAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.researchgate.net%2Fprofile%2FWian_Erlank%2Fpublication%2F228162959_The_Legal_Acceptance_of_Virtual_Property%2Ffile%2F79e41511dd3e0ac488.pdf&ei=T8qdU6bVEsr9kAX094CQCQ&usg=AFQjCNEEI9QKn6yFiKmFPlmsDfgPlnX7Hw&bvm=bv.68911936,d.dGI

 

The precedent has been set and as far as I can tell it is only a matter of time before situations like this will be as legally plain as transferring money through a bank,  if a bug in steams software cause loss of an item then steam are responsible.

 

EDIT: in the pdf link goto the bottom of page 4 for the dutch court hearing, although all the other cases mentioned are interesting too.

[dragosudeki]

It said later down in the post, the person got it back anyway.... It is sorta hard to solve these cases like this anyways, because then more of the item will be created for those who did encounter the bug. People could potentially do this so that their bots can potentially make them lots of money. If they did reverse the transaction, then the person (assume its not a bot) who got it for a good price will get punished, and then he complains. Policies aren't really created to make the customer happy, but more so make their business lose less money.
This is just a problem with virtual items anyway. Look at bitcoin. Can we say that a virtual item actually has a value and should be reimbursable? I'm not sure about this particular item, but I think some you have to earn just playing the game (I think). So if he did buy it, it would have to be from another seller, and then can we really say he lost $80 from Valve (Though if someone did buy an item in a game using that much money, then they sort of wasted it anyway)? If he earned it in the game, then is it really his money he lost or just money he potentially can earn?
I think the thing with Steam, compared to Origin for example, is that Steam has all games (including those nonsense 'early access games') where as the other solutions are vendor specific. I don't buy from steam anyways, since green man gaming and other sites have been giving pretty good deals more frequently.

[Osmium]

People deserve to be pissed off at Valve for this. That doesn't mean they should do nothing. They should do what's right and reverse the transaction.

 

You aren't understanding the big picture here. Valve has done this exact thing many times before and back then they drew the line because people were abusing the system. The line was already drawn and they don't want to cross it. Looking at the situation people will be angry no matter what (and rightfully so!) so why would they cross the line they drew years ago when no matter what they can't do the right thing? 

 

In my opinion I think they should give the guy back his knife and let the other guy keep his. BUT I can see why they can't do that.

[Osmium]

-snip-

 

This is what I am talking about. If they let both people keep their knives people will abuse this like they did in TF2.

 

So the only options they are left with is undoing the transaction which will piss off the guy who bought it(and going against their policy on market transactions), or they can leave it be. 

[Camul]

You aren't understanding the big picture here. Valve has done this exact thing many times before and back then they drew the line because people were abusing the system. The line was already drawn and they don't want to cross it. Looking at the situation people will be angry no matter what (and rightfully so!) so why would they cross the line they drew years ago when no matter what they can't do the right thing? 

 

In my opinion I think they should give the guy back his knife and let the other guy keep his. BUT I can see why they can't do that.

 

People abused the system because Valve were offering duplicates. I said they should reverse the transaction completely, no duplicated items involved.

 

 

 

This is what I am talking about. If they let both people keep their knives people will abuse this like they did in TF2.

 

So the only options they are left with is undoing the transaction which will piss off the guy who bought it(and going against their policy on market transactions), or they can leave it be. 

 

I don't think they should stick to their policies in an abnormal situation like this.

[Askew]

If it could be proven that he didn't confirm it then that's unfair, could it be proven?

 

I'm not knowledgable on Steam marketplace I don't use it.

[Sammael]

I'm still mad you can't scale the steam client for 1440p monitors. I can't imagine anyone using it on a 4k display.

Everything is too tiny and irritating to look at

[Camul]

If it could be proven that he didn't confirm it then that's unfair, could it be proven?

 

I'm not knowledgable on Steam marketplace I don't use it.

There would be a record that he sold an $80 item for $1.50, but I don't know what item it would say he confirmed to sell. I'm guessing it would work against him though, even though it been known to happen in the past.

[beebskadoo]

I'm still mad you can't scale the steam client for 1440p monitors. I can't imagine anyone using it on a 4k display.

Everything is too tiny and irritating to look at

my 1080p surface pro 2 is nearly impossible to use when it comes to steam especially with no touch support! Scaling is garbage!

[Albatross]

That sucks! Poor guy!

 

Steam is far from the best solution, it's just the biggest solution.
People hate on origin even though it looks and runs better than steam does. Steam kinda sucks...

 

I was just about to say something very similar.

[Ren]

This is just a problem with virtual items anyway. Look at bitcoin. Can we say that a virtual item actually has a value and should be reimbursable? I'm not sure about this particular item, but I think some you have to earn just playing the game (I think). So if he did buy it, it would have to be from another seller, and then can we really say he lost $80 from Valve (Though if someone did buy an item in a game using that much money, then they sort of wasted it anyway)? If he earned it in the game, then is it really his money he lost or just money he potentially can earn?

I think the thing with Steam, compared to Origin for example, is that Steam has all games (including those nonsense 'early access games') where as the other solutions are vendor specific. I don't buy from steam anyways, since green man gaming and other sites have been giving pretty good deals more frequently.

 

Bitcoin/cryptocurrency is basically just a record of how much work you've done towards X. You're getting a value that can eventually be exchanged for physical currency based on how much you've helped compute. It's not just a virtual item, you/something you own/bought is working for someone else. Lots of vague or empty words but I know too little about coins to say much more about what exactly you're doing when mining.

 

 

I think that "potential value" is more important than "total spent", personally. For one, it dictates what the item can actually be sold for and not what it was once worth. This works both ways, as in you might have something that was limited edition and rare, worth loads more than it originally was and is sought after, or you have something that is basically worthless now compared to what you paid originally. Still applies when it comes to time spent but time spent is slightly different as no one should value their time on a game the same way you do at a job. You're playing for fun after all, right? Or should be.. It's a game. Nice comment in general, btw.

 

 

Early access/beta/whatever sort of pre-order/kickstarter bullshit Steam supports is what annoys me the most about something as large as Steam is for pc gaming. Kickstarters are nice, pre-orders are ok, but all you're doing is basically encouraging paying someone before they deliver a product and when people do that, they're basically agreeing to the fact that they are funding an incomplete game without expectation of it ever being completed or better than it currently is. That fucks up gaming for people who do not support preordering/kickstarters/early beta access just by reducing the value of their rights to owning a complete game.

 

It's seriously depressing when you truly think about the potential and how preordering in general has screwed with gaming. Who knows how good games might be if companies were guaranteed to have to invest their own money into a game to make it good enough to sell and make a large profit. Now, all you have to do is give people early access or market it well enough to fund your game before it even lifts off the ground and then do a half-assed job on what you promised, at the least. The rest is optional..

 

 

Lastly, competition is definitely good. Monopolization is bad everywhere in the world regardless of the type of business. Despite Steam sales being so prevalent and very, very cheap (thus defeating the purpose of what one could consider "huge, standalone profit margins on the market" from monopolies), they're selling virtual goods in the end. That means all they're doing is spending time organizing what already is created, duplicating it by using electricity and distributing it to the masses. They're not giving you anything physical, they're giving you their time and effort at a price cut. And that last bit doesn't even affect how much they make because, again, it can be automated and done however long they want to do it.

 

I also encourage the 'shopping elsewhere' thing because if Steam or some other large site/software/whatever type of thing goes bankrupt, hacked, shut down, anything that makes it so you can't use what you've purchased, you are fucked. Every game you've bought, $0.13 on sale or $183.99 full price w/DLC, is gone. It also helps keep absolutely everything out of Steam's hands for other reasons. If other game distribution companies get big enough, you could see things being more universal. Things may be closer to non-exclusive DRM or what is pretty much as close to owning a physical copy as possible when it comes to virtual goods. Not entirely sure if that makes sense but I hope you understand. Also, the 24/7 sales help loads. Hard to wait for Steam Summer/Christmas/Black Friday/Cyber Monday/whatever sales, so if they have to compete for sales time when it isn't a "holiday" or peak marketing time, the consumer benefits from using all outlets and not just one.

 

Huge reply, sorry. Only read one section if you don't wanna waste your time with the whole thing, people. Anyway, really liked this half of your post. Made me think about the whole subject more actively. Thanks.

Disclaimer: Most of this is not based on facts and is purely my opinion.

[Mooshi]

The top post only reminds me how stupid TF2 is with hats and people spending actual decent amount of real cash on that crap.

[MrTomnus]

I had to deal with them with a problem I had with Steam not being able to "install" and open a select few games that were on my secondary HDD. I went through a long process of going through safe mode, reinstalling Steam, reinstalling the games etc, and then once they'd done that my ticket was closed. I knew I wasn't going to get a solution so I just left it. Kinda sucks really because I know the only way to fix it is to reinstall the OS which I really don't want to do.