We Downgraded all our PCs to Prove You Don’t Need a New One

[Helpful Tech Witch]

15 minutes ago, AndreiArgeanu said:

RX480 is quite powerful actually. I have an RX480 8gb red devil still laying around, that I used to have in my system and if I remember correctly I could easily do GTA 5 with max settings at pretty good framerates.

idk what magic 480 you had, mine was the reference blower card with 4gb and it struggled to keep 60fps at 1080p

 

[Tideroo]

44 minutes ago, tkitch said:

Honestly I'm kinda disappointed in this video.

 

Not for the topic:  It's a truefax that people can easily be fine with PCs that're a few years old, and buying brand new can be a lot of money for fairly little gain.

 

But:

Nothing before intel 8th gen supports Windows 11.  
And Win10 goes EoL next year.  And every single box on here does NOT officially support windows 11.

 

(Yes there are work arounds, but the people doing this aren't enthusiasts, they're gonna generally be noobs.)

So, they're buying into "soon to be obsolete" hardware.

Tbh for W11, that's Microsoft's fault more than anything else as they got way too strict on the system requirements. It's not like Vista where it was just a crappy experience on a lot of already outdated computers, here MS is litteraly blocking the installation to a billion (and a half?) of them simply because they'll be lacking supposedly "important features that cant be disabled". 

 

(Also computer newbies/noobs should only stick to stuff they can find in their local stores, unless someone can suggest a good alternative somewhere else for them. If they decide to gamble and buy something on the net without knowing how to differenciate a good and a bad product, that's their fault - But that's another debate)

[AndreiArgeanu]

3 minutes ago, Helpful Tech Witch said:

idk what magic 480 you had, mine was the reference blower card with 4gb and it struggled to keep 60fps at 1080p

 

Was it overheating by chance? I don't remember mine being particularly slow, although it has a slight OC and twice the memory so it helped a bit.

[FlyingPotato_is_taken]

16 minutes ago, Helpful Tech Witch said:

mine was the reference blower card

I remember them being not a great cooler: Hot & loud.

[Needfuldoer]

Honestly, I'm kind of surprised LMG still builds their "regular office desktops" in-house instead of just buying a fleet of prebuilts every few years. 

 

At work we just refreshed our fleet of Optiplex 7040s with new 13th gen laptops on docks. Our video production and art workstations are standardized on dual socket Precision 7920 towers. 

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, Needfuldoer said:

Honestly, I'm kind of surprised LMG still builds their "regular office desktops" in-house instead of just buying a fleet of prebuilts every few years. 

Cause they are a tech channel. They can't have fun with Dell Precision's. Proprietary system means no part swapping.

 

They could do like, BOXX or something, since they basically build to the same spec Dell/HP workstations you'd use for Davinci Resolve or AutoCad or whatever high end software you need without necessarily needing to overbuild it. I've only seen one of these machines at the previous client, and this machine "outlasted" the newer Dell's they had because it was somewhat overengineered. It only got recycled because they got rid of ALL the HP gear and stuck to Dell only.

 

1 hour ago, Needfuldoer said:

At work we just refreshed our fleet of Optiplex 7040s with new 13th gen laptops on docks. Our video production and art workstations are standardized on dual socket Precision 7920 towers. 

Honestly, as much as I'm okay with recommending "Dell" if you need a bunch of identical (laptop) machines, it only makes sense if you're going to do a large purchase of identical machines, and I doubt that is what LTT has.

 

When you start getting into desktops, there is literately zero point to not building it yourself, or at least starting from a system that you can upgrade. Dell does not, nor has it ever, offered a viable "high end" gaming desktop, let alone workstation. At best you get something of a weak compromise between power supply and chassis size. Like good luck sticking any non-OEM RTX card in them. Dell's own cards typically have clips that fit just that model of card in just that model chassis.  And the build quality of the Dell branded GPU's is a huge step down from like an ASUS TUF or similar.

 

[Itrio]

I wanted to point out that at no point during the video was it addressed that moving a Windows install between CPUs, GPUs and other such hardware considerations can cause a LOT of the complaints I heard in the video from the subjects. Depending on what the source drive was installed on, I've had some weird issues that stemmed completely from just "slapping my old drive in the new box", where as a fresh Windows installation experienced none of the issues.

 

You mentioned the NVMe support, and your ability to just swap drives at 2:54 in the video, but don't make any further mention, but then have the subjects complaining about the issues they experienced, all of which could be attributed to, or at least impacted by, an unclean windows installation having a significant change in hardware configuration. If it was from another similarly spec'd model of HP or Dell prebuilt, sure, that's acceptable in most cases from an IT perspective - just not in this use case, I fear. For context, I recently upgraded from a 5800X to a 7900X CPU, moving motherboards and RAM architectures in the process (AM4 to AM5, and DDR4 to DDR5). As an avid VR Chat player, the same world would net me 23-26 FPS on the same 3070 with my reused windows install, and almost 40-50 FPS on a fresh windows install. A clean install makes a world of difference for significant hardware changes.

 

My question, was any consideration for the significant change in hardware to the pre-existing Windows installations that were used for this experiment? (understandably, this was not a Labs thing, and more a "proof of concept", but I'm curious)

[ToboRobot]

Good enough is the happy middle ground that the low end spec and the top tier spec computer people just don't understand.

[8tg]

This is an important topic to cover. So many people are confused over what they really need versus what they see the most.

 

Ive spent this last week and this week with an N100 and 750ti on windows 8.1 and found that it does 99% of what my 11900k and A770 do for me.

 

this plays halo MCC titles all in 1080p max settings no problems, it’ll do older aaa games like black ops II or gta iv in 4k

and this is an extreme example 

[xnamkcor]

Exactly how much a downgrade from your current monitors would you need in order to get a monitor that has an HDMI port so you can use that DVI port?

[powertoys]

39 minutes ago, xnamkcor said:

DVI port?

DVI is digital, and DVI -> HDMI / DP adapters are really cheap and a much better alternative than swapping the entire monitor. I'm surprised they forgot about this

[dogwitch]

its funny. i ask awhile ago. on a laptop i got for free.

really good spec. 2019 i7 envy

laptop needs a new battery and a display,hindge cable.(after deeper look)

total cost $200

laptop i got on discount at bb $340

Model:17-cp2033dx

SKU:6554443

i needed a pc that was above a basic chrome book

but did not limit basic windows functions.

 

it does it job for what i need it for and am not over spending.

also 2 day battery on light usage with amd laptop.

shock on how good it is and dead silent .

 

 

like tobo said

 

[powertoys]

3 hours ago, Itrio said:

I wanted to point out that at no point during the video was it addressed that moving a Windows install between CPUs, GPUs and other such hardware considerations can cause a LOT of the complaints I heard in the video from the subjects. Depending on what the source drive was installed on, I've had some weird issues that stemmed completely from just "slapping my old drive in the new box", where as a fresh Windows installation experienced none of the issues.

 

You mentioned the NVMe support, and your ability to just swap drives at 2:54 in the video, but don't make any further mention, but then have the subjects complaining about the issues they experienced, all of which could be attributed to, or at least impacted by, an unclean windows installation having a significant change in hardware configuration. If it was from another similarly spec'd model of HP or Dell prebuilt, sure, that's acceptable in most cases from an IT perspective - just not in this use case, I fear. For context, I recently upgraded from a 5800X to a 7900X CPU, moving motherboards and RAM architectures in the process (AM4 to AM5, and DDR4 to DDR5). As an avid VR Chat player, the same world would net me 23-26 FPS on the same 3070 with my reused windows install, and almost 40-50 FPS on a fresh windows install. A clean install makes a world of difference for significant hardware changes.

 

My question, was any consideration for the significant change in hardware to the pre-existing Windows installations that were used for this experiment? (understandably, this was not a Labs thing, and more a "proof of concept", but I'm curious)

I did not watch the video, but I just read your comment and... wow. Did they REALLY just transfer the SSD to another machine? This is like Windows 101. Swapping SSD? Clean install. Period.

[Inception9269]

15 minutes ago, powertoys said:

I did not watch the video, but I just read your comment and... wow. Did they REALLY just transfer the SSD to another machine? This is like Windows 101. Swapping SSD? Clean install. Period.

It depends.

 

In my experience as long as you're sticking to the same platform, AMD -> AMD, or Intel -> Intel you can get by, sometimes.

[sub68]

9 hours ago, TR094 said:

atleast they didnt make their pc's use onboard graphics

Actually it's pretty adequate if your not doing 4k video editing or you can play newer ish games at lowest res around 30fps.

9 hours ago, visitor2015 said:

The reason those old OptiPlex machines with Kaby Lake and below generation processors now flood the used market is, that large companies or government institutions are switching to Windows 11. Those old machines are not suitable for that OS anymore, because Microsoft does not support those old CPUs or lack of TPM2.0.

Ish some do a 4 year cycle.

Most gov institutions have insurance were there cyber stuff needs to be current so they get tons of grant money to do that.

 

[sub68]

56 minutes ago, powertoys said:

I did not watch the video, but I just read your comment and... wow. Did they REALLY just transfer the SSD to another machine? This is like Windows 101. Swapping SSD? Clean install. Period.

I have a test drive a 240gb hard drive (win7 with amd Nvidia and Intel drivers) and it hasn't given a crap...

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

12 hours ago, CentreMetre said:

12 hours ago, GamingAndRCs said:

Thats great! What do you think of frameworks laptops overall, im looking for a new laptop, and theirs are expensive but look like they are worth it. 

Ill be honest i really only got it for the principle of it being repairable, which was a real factor since batteries dont seem to like me so i can more easily replace that, and i wanted the ability to tinker.

I also got it for the possibility of using the system board itself as some sort of server/nas in the future if/when i get a new laptop. I also want to look into using the battery currently in it as some sort of external battery bank with a 3d printed enclosure to use for my phone or other devices to charge, and 'steal' electric of my uni. 

 

If you dont have the money or that money can be better used, to be completely honest, i would probably just go for a cheaper non framework. 

 

(I cant speak for the latest frame work (the 16 i think it is), i got the 13 (or 11, i cant remember the exact numbers for the models, it was oct 2022), but there is a shortcircuit on the frame 16 by Alex so definitely check that out.)

 

As mentioned before in my last post the battery is getting to be bad, even when i first used it with ubuntu the battery didnt last long, but theres defintily a decrease in use before havcing to recharge. Maybe becuase of the fact that i keep it on charge over night since if i charge it up before bed, then take it off charge, its lost about 20% overnight. I think even Louis Rossman(n) mentioned that in a video about it. 

 

Another bugbear (that isnt just my specific laptop) is that i cannot power on without being plugged into with a USB. Even just plugging into my phone allows me to power on, so im not sure whats happening with that, i dont think that happened when i got it but it wasnt long until that started happening. The cmos isnt gone since it keeps time. There are some possible fixes i havent got around to trying yet.

 

Also recently, maybe just since ive used it more in general, the fans sound like theyre gonna take off and my laptop is gonna end up in the ceiling, not sure whats causing that, maybe linux mint.

 

So if you can comfortably afford it, and like the possible upgrade path, and dont mind the possible bugs because of the relative newness, and just general want to support what framework is doing with repairable electronics, i would get it it.  

 

Sorry for the rambly reply, this is just my personal experience.

Sorry to hijack this thread a bit, but I just wanted to mention I am in a similar boat. At the time I had need for a new laptop, had the money and was/still am a fan of repairable things. So I got an 11th gen Framework 13 in late 2021, one of the earlier batches.

 

The battery was never stellar, however I can't really complain right now as I am no longer daily driving it (using either Desktop or work provided laptop) unless I am traveling or on vacation. It could be better, but at least you can always replace the battery once it really dies. It would have just been nice, would it have been great from the start.

The issue with the laptop needing to be plugged in sounds like one of those 11th gen issues where they would revert to the out of box experience once the battery/cmos was below a certain amount of power. Had that on mine when it arrived, got it replaced immediately.

 

@GamingAndRCs they are good laptops, you just have to realize that their standout feature is repairability. Means they won't have the best battery life, the best performance per dollar etc. It will be easy to work on, though.

 

Regarding the actual video: I was always wondering where the point for them would be to actually look at more standardized PCs for their staff. I know they already have standardized on a set of hardware for their workstations on some level. I just felt like that at some point the time and money saved of going with an office pre-build would outweigh the DIY spirit.

 

I also noticed over the years hardware got more longevity in the office space, especially when the original purchaser didn't cheap out too much and went with a reasonably powerful config. It will be interesting to see how 8th gen plus will fare in this game, considering how incremental changes were around the time of 4th to 7th gen intel.

[ahuckphin]

0:36

 

1 issue with older 4th gen Optiplexs is that they may only have a Windows 7 key... which now Microsoft has stopped activation of 10/11 with them... means either using older unsupported OS or splurging for a new license. 

[tkitch]

10 hours ago, powertoys said:

DVI is digital, and DVI -> HDMI / DP adapters are really cheap and a much better alternative than swapping the entire monitor. I'm surprised they forgot about this

They are, but they're still severely bandwidth limited.  

 

4K is basically not an option on that.

[Helpful Tech Witch]

16 hours ago, AndreiArgeanu said:

Was it overheating by chance? I don't remember mine being particularly slow, although it has a slight OC and twice the memory so it helped a bit.

oh yea it totally was limited by the cooler. To get it to not overheat it had to be loud asf and it basically didnt boost

[dcgreen2k]

19 hours ago, podkall said:

let's see hardware speed perception, if I asked someone how fast GPU you need for GTAV on Medium settings 1080p, what would be your guess?

From personal experience, you can run GTAV on mostly Low settings and 1280x1024 resolution at a playable FPS with a C2Q Q6600 and GTX 750Ti. The main issue I had was that textures wouldn't load in if you drove around too fast, but that may have been due to the old hard drive in that system.

 

I was even able to run it with a C2D E6700, but the missing textures problem was much worse.

[silentdragon95]

2 hours ago, dcgreen2k said:

From personal experience, you can run GTAV on mostly Low settings and 1280x1024 resolution at a playable FPS with a C2Q Q6600 and GTX 750Ti. The main issue I had was that textures wouldn't load in if you drove around too fast, but that may have been due to the old hard drive in that system.

The hard drive certainly didn't help. I was able to play GTA V on GPUs as old as a Radeon HD 4890 from 2009 (with modded drivers) with a Core2Quad. In fact, it even works with two of them in Crossfire, and quite decently so (just don't ask why anyone would subject themselves to two TeraScale GPUs in CrossFire, because it is a terrible idea ).

 

GTA V is not only pretty good as a game, it is amazing from a technical standpoint as well. It still looks quite good after all these years and it can run on anything from a literal potato to a modern high-end PC, and if you play with the advanced graphics settings it still allows modern high-end GPUs to stretch their legs. I don't approve of everything Rockstar is doing, but in this regard I do think that other developers should take note.

[podkall]

2 hours ago, dcgreen2k said:

The main issue I had was that textures wouldn't load in if you drove around too fast, but that may have been due to the old hard drive in that system.

slow texture load could be CPU/RAM or HDD related, not necessairly single-handedly by one, but definitely in combination

[dcgreen2k]

1 hour ago, silentdragon95 said:

The hard drive certainly didn't help.

1 hour ago, podkall said:

slow texture load could be CPU/RAM or HDD related, not necessairly single-handedly by one, but definitely in combination

I've been meaning to pop an SSD into that system for a while now, might give me a chance to test how it performs without that old hard drive. 

[podkall]

26 minutes ago, dcgreen2k said:

I've been meaning to pop an SSD into that system for a while now, might give me a chance to test how it performs without that old hard drive. 

which one? I think I've ran GTA V with no issues on HDD, but not 100% sure