Workplace problems because of my chronotype

[Stahlmann]

Sorry for this wall of text, but thanks in advance if you still read it all to give an informed response.

 

First off, if you're not familiar with the concept of a "chronotype", it's basically your body's inner clock that decides on which time of day you're awake and productive and at which time you get tired and typically go to sleep. It's a genetic predisposition that cannot really be altered even if you're willing to try. It's the genetic version of being a morning grouch. This is not something that is black and white and everyone is slightly (or extremely) different in that regard.

 

Basically, i'm an extreme owl. That means if i don't use an alarm and just go to bed when i feel tired and wake up when i feel i've slept enough, i normally go to bed around 4-6 AM and wake up around 3-5 PM. That wasn't a big problem in the past, simply because i didn't need as much sleep and i was still living with the rest of my family so they could wake me up if i overslept. Oversleeping happens VERY regularly for me because a normal 9-5 job is basically in direct conflict to my chronotype.

 

Half a year ago i moved into my own place. Ever since i've had more and more problems showing up to work on time, simply because i don't have someone waking me up when i don't hear my alarm (which happens a lot because i'm in deep sleep when my alarm goes off). To add to the problem, my body simply doesn't work on 2-4 hours of daily sleep anymore like it did in the past.

 

Now my boss is pretty understanding. I haven't explained the particulars of a chronotype to him yet, but all in all he's happy as long as i put my monthly hours in and the work i do is done well. However, my colleagues are not so understanding. They see my inconsistent starting times as being lazy, unorganized and privileged because none of us officially have flexible work hours. This will very likely devolve into mobbing if i don't do anything about it in the very near future. I already had to change jobs in the past because it eventually devolved into mobbing and harassment and i don't want it to happen again because i like my job. And if that happens, who's to say it's not gonna be the same again at the next job. So i obviously need to do something about it.

 

However, on the other hand i fear that some of my colleages won't be as understanding as my boss and bringing this up will make it worse, even if i bring up chronotypes and a scientific explaination of what it is. I already tried to bring it up with the one i'm working closest with and he just basically said "go to bed earlier", which means he fundamentally didn't understand the underlaying problem. It simply doesn't work like that and when i go to bed between 10-12 PM i simply cannot sleep because i'm not tired.

 

And no, changing careers to something with different work hours is something i cannot afford at the time.

Or maybe there is a more gentle way to say "it's none of your concern", since i don't really owe anyone other than my boss the real explaination?

I can't throw it back to a medical condition because it is not one, kind of like your sexuality is not a medical condition and you don't have to apologize for that.

 

I know this is a tech forum, but i'm hoping someone on the off-topic section has some additional insight that can help...

[Dedayog]

3 hours ago, Stahlmann said:

Sorry for this wall of text, but thanks in advance if you still read it all to give an informed response.

 

First off, if you're not familiar with the concept of a "chronotype", it's basically your body's inner clock that decides on which time of day you're awake and productive and at which time you get tired and typically go to sleep. It's a genetic predisposition that cannot really be altered even if you're willing to try. It's the genetic version of being a morning grouch. This is not something that is black and white and everyone is slightly (or extremely) different in that regard.

 

Basically, i'm an extreme owl. That means if i don't use an alarm and just go to bed when i feel tired and wake up when i feel i've slept enough, i normally go to bed around 4-6 AM and wake up around 3-5 PM. That wasn't a big problem in the past, simply because i didn't need as much sleep and i was still living with the rest of my family so they could wake me up if i overslept. Oversleeping happens VERY regularly for me because a normal 9-5 job is basically in direct conflict to my chronotype.

 

Half a year ago i moved into my own place. Ever since i've had more and more problems showing up to work on time, simply because i don't have someone waking me up when i don't hear my alarm (which happens a lot because i'm in deep sleep when my alarm goes off). To add to the problem, my body simply doesn't work on 2-4 hours of daily sleep anymore like it did in the past.

 

Now my boss is pretty understanding. I haven't explained the particulars of a chronotype to him yet, but all in all he's happy as long as i put my monthly hours in and the work i do is done well. However, my colleagues are not so understanding. They see my inconsistent starting times as being lazy, unorganized and privileged because none of us officially have flexible work hours. This will very likely devolve into mobbing if i don't do anything about it in the very near future. I already had to change jobs in the past because it eventually devolved into mobbing and harassment and i don't want it to happen again because i like my job. And if that happens, who's to say it's not gonna be the same again at the next job. So i obviously need to do something about it.

 

However, on the other hand i fear that some of my colleages won't be as understanding as my boss and bringing this up will make it worse, even if i bring up chronotypes and a scientific explaination of what it is. I already tried to bring it up with the one i'm working closest with and he just basically said "go to bed earlier", which means he fundamentally didn't understand the underlaying problem. It simply doesn't work like that and when i go to bed between 10-12 PM i simply cannot sleep because i'm not tired.

 

And no, changing careers to something with different work hours is something i cannot afford at the time.

Or maybe there is a more gentle way to say "it's none of your concern", since i don't really owe anyone other than my boss the real explaination?

I can't throw it back to a medical condition because it is not one, kind of like your sexuality is not a medical condition and you don't have to apologize for that.

 

I know this is a tech forum, but i'm hoping someone on the off-topic section has some additional insight that can help...

You don't have to apologize or even give a shit what we think

 

But frankly your reasoning and logic are wrapped up into a ball of "I don't wanna, wah wah wah".

 

I've worked a night shift for years when I was younger and while there is an adjustment period, you CAN change your patterns.  Sleeping during the day and being up at night was done for years, and once acclimated it was fine.

 

I'm not tired?  Really?  Small adjustments, going to be 15 minutes earlier each night or taking a sleep aid.

 

It sounds like you're using a condition as an excuse to not try to adjust your life.  Your choice, 100%.  But don't make other people have to deal with your choice.

 

You may have a condition that makes it difficult, there is no condition that FORCES you to be up at night.  Sleep schedules can be adjusted, ask any night nurse, 3rd shift cop or fireman, any of MILLIONS of workers across the globe that work 3rd shit even.  

 

Change your mindset or change your career.  There are many that don't have set hours.  Or find a 3rd shift job.

 

"privileged because none of us officially have flexible work hours."

 

Yes, you're privileged if you have perks your peers don;t. 

 

Sorry, but your entire post screams "ENTITLED".  Even your word choice and structure come off as "I sleep when I get tired, whenever I want".  Any idea how many nights I am TRULY tired at 11pm, and how many mornings I am TRULY wanting to get up at 6am?

 

Yeah.

 

Hopefully your mindset changes soon.

 

[Stahlmann]

51 minutes ago, Dedayog said:

You don't have to apologize or even give a shit what we think

 

But frankly your reasoning and logic are wrapped up into a ball of "I don't wanna, wah wah wah".

 

I've worked a night shift for years when I was younger and while there is an adjustment period, you CAN change your patterns.  Sleeping during the day and being up at night was done for years, and once acclimated it was fine.

 

I'm not tired?  Really?  Small adjustments, going to be 15 minutes earlier each night or taking a sleep aid.

 

It sounds like you're using a condition as an excuse to not try to adjust your life.  Your choice, 100%.  But don't make other people have to deal with your choice.

 

You may have a condition that makes it difficult, there is no condition that FORCES you to be up at night.  Sleep schedules can be adjusted, ask any night nurse, 3rd shift cop or fireman, any of MILLIONS of workers across the globe that work 3rd shit even.  

 

Change your mindset or change your career.  There are many that don't have set hours.  Or find a 3rd shift job.

 

"privileged because none of us officially have flexible work hours."

 

Yes, you're privileged if you have perks your peers don;t. 

 

Sorry, but your entire post screams "ENTITLED".  Even your word choice and structure come off as "I sleep when I get tired, whenever I want".  Any idea how many nights I am TRULY tired at 11pm, and how many mornings I am TRULY wanting to get up at 6am?

 

Yeah.

 

Hopefully your mindset changes soon.

 

Like i said, waking up early doesn't work for me just because i don't want to, but because i actually don't wake up to my alarm clock. I have talked to my doctor about it. And for a time i tried to "just go to bed earlier" and it simply didn't work. Even when i only had 2-3 hours of sleep the day before, i'm simply not tired enough at 10-12 pm to fall asleep because that's the time where my body somehow feels like it has to do something.

 

It not even that i'm addicted to some game or TV show that keeps me up all night. Most of the time it's just that i'm not in bed because i'm not tired and even though i'm awake i'm actually bored. (because there is nothing to do in the middle of the night)

 

And i have thought about the fact that there are millions of people doing shifts who basically have the same problem. That's true, but it's also proven that this is bad for your physical and mental health, so if at all possible i should pursue other solutions than living an unhealthy life. There are reasons why night shift workers get paid a lot better than normal workers (at least here in Germany). They're getting compensated for suboptimal work conditions. So why shouldn't a daytime worker get compensated for work when they would have an easier time doing it during the night? I'm not asking for a raise here, merely understanding.

 

But anyway, thanks for being honest. You're giving something to think about.

 

26 minutes ago, htimsenyawed said:

I had never heard of ‘chronotype’ before this post, and I looked into it out of curiosity. 
 

It appears to be some new age hokum, however every type listed has the waking hours between 5AM and 9AM. AM, not PM. 
 

Why? Because humans have evolved to cycle with the sun rising and setting, this is hard coded into our DNA. That’s why night shift people truly have a difficult time. 
 

This sounds like someone with a poor understanding of sleep patterns, who makes poor choices regarding their sleep, trying to blame their lack of self-control on something out of their hands.

 

Go to bed earlier, take sleeping medicine or find a different job.

 

I have had this problem for a long time and have never been able to find a working long-term solution, so now i'm hoping to find other solutions than permanent medication.

 

The reason why Chronotypes are something the public isn't really aware about is because it's not a problem for the majority of people. Ther are a great many things the public doesn't really know simply because the public doesn't care about it.

 

But maybe there is also some truth to the studies that have shown that people who work against their natural sleep patterns generally are more unhealthy and unhappy, especially long-term. Woking against the natural tendencies of your body is almost always unhealthy.

 

So far it seems like both of you missed the fundamental part of the story: It's not willfull. Living in a permanent jetlag isn't fun, why would i want that? If i could fix these problems by going to bed earlier, than there wouldn't be any problem.

 

A career change is something i've considered but simply can't afford in the near future.

 

But again, thanks for being honest.

[Holmes108]

Although the above posts may seem a bit harsh, I do generally agree with them. Even if you have an extreme condition of some sort, I don't think it's on companies to accommodate for everything under the sun. 

 

All that being said, if I understood your post, your boss seems okay with it so far. And arguably that's the most important thing. If you two (and/or the company) have an understanding and are happy with the relationship, then that's that. 

 

Of course, having all of your peers bitter and resentful can make for a pretty unhappy workday. I don' t know how much you interact with them or care though. Also, if they are unhappy enough, and are able to convince your employer it's "unfair", then your boss may try and crack down more on your schedule, which then changes things entirely... 

 

So all that being said, I realize I haven't really offered any type of solution. Except that if your boss is okay with it today, then keep on trucking and hope the party doesn't have to end for you soon. 

[Stahlmann]

5 minutes ago, Holmes108 said:

Although the above posts may seem a bit harsh, I do generally agree with them. Even if you have an extreme condition of some sort, I don't think it's on companies to accommodate for everything under the sun.

 

All that being said, if I understood your post, your boss seems okay with it so far. And arguably that's the most important thing. If you two (and/or the company) have an understanding and are happy with the relationship, then that's that. 

I agree. But like you already understood, the problem isn't between me and my employer. We already reached an inofficial agreement that if my work doesn't suffer from it and i work the same hours as my colleagues, he doesn't really care if i come in an hour or so later.

 

5 minutes ago, Holmes108 said:

Of course, having all of your peers bitter and resentful can make a pretty unhappy workday. I don' t know how much you interact with them or care though. Also, if they are unhappy enough, and are able to convince your employer it's "unfair", then your boss may try and crack down more on your schedule, which then changes things entirely... 

 

So all that being said, I realize I haven't really offered any type of solution. Except that if your boss is okay with it today, then keep on trucking and hope the party doesn't have to end for you soon. 

That's where the problem just came in. Thing is, my colleages don't really have a problem that i come in later. The main problem is that they don't know at which time i come in and that's what they have compained about from time to time. Sometimes it's 8 am if i manage to wake up on time, sometimes it's up to 9 am depending on if i overslept again.

 

Now knowing where the problem is i just went to my boss and there has been a new development just now:

 

I asked if it's possible that we just change my official work hours to a time where i can guarantee to be there. We came to an agreement to  move my official work day back 1.5 hours and cut back on the breaks to stay within the companies opening hours. I know i'm lucky to have such an understanding boss. A rather simple solution that fixes everyones problems and isn't too different to how it worked until now. I'll see how it goes starting next week.

[Holmes108]

34 minutes ago, Stahlmann said:

I asked if it's possible that we just change my official work hours to a time where i can guarantee to be there. We came to an agreement to  move my official work day back 1.5 hours and cut back on the breaks to stay within the companies opening hours. I know i'm lucky to have such an understanding boss. A rather simple solution that fixes everyones problems and isn't too different to how it worked until now. I'll see how it goes starting next week.

 

Sounds promising! Hopefully it works for everyone, and things progress smoothly. As long as you're contributing like everyone else, hopefully they're able to just focus on themselves. It's nice if and when a company is able to offer some flexibility.

[TubsAlwaysWins]

Relatable.

Wish we had a night shift, or a shift starting late afternoon

[Zomeguy]

Have you looked into Alarm clocks for heavy sleepers? Some even have devices that shake the bed as well.

[Rocketdog2112]

This chronotype excuse stinks of a vague attempt to make excuses for staying up all night and sleeping all day as a teenager. And now it has spilled over into your adult life. That and having to have mommy and daddy wake you up because you stayed up all night and then overslept because you didn't get enough sleep. 

 

And now as a working adult living on your own, you are paying the price for your staying up all night habits as a teenager. 

 

If you have a job with a boss giving you privileges to drag your ass into work when you feel like it, you better hold on to it. 

I'd fire your ass in a heatbeat. 

 

I speak from experience. I once worked for a family owned business that did directional drilling. The boss hired his son to work with me. The work day began at 8 am, he would come dragging in between 9:30-10 o'clock. Said he just couldn't get up on time. Burned up my every nerve. 

 

This was also over twenty years ago, long before people started making up fake labels for their laziness. 

 

I also blame parents for allowing their kids to stay up all hours of the night. My wife's son works nights, meanwhile his pos wife is posting videos on Facebook of their two eight year old kids up and playing around well past 2 am. 

[Mihle]

I don't wake up if I use a single alarm in the morning. But my solution to that is that I have an alarm going off every 3-5 minutes, and then I will be awake after the 3-5 alarms usually, sometimes longer but usually not.

 

My light in my room also turn on about 10 min before the alarms, don't know if it makes much difference but I started doing it and don't want to try to stop doing it.

[711jrp]

I drove a truck for sixteen years. The shifts started out,two weeks of days and one week of nights which then changed to two weeks of nights and one week of days.On an average week we would around sixty hours. My best advice to dealing with a situation where you have to go to work when you want to go to sleep is very simple,,,If you want the money get on with it and go to work, it really is as simple as that. 

 

[wseaton]

Not sure if the OP has the same issue, but dawn dusk cycle mechanics aren't the same for everybody and to think so is effing arrogant.

 

I worked corporate IT for decades, and eventually switched positions because I biologically can't handle first shift. In gradeschool I was fine with early am and would often get up at 4:30am to read books. By the time I graduated HS anything earlier than 7:30am was brutal and made me ill.

 

Doesn't matter if I go to bed at 10pm or 3am. Still feel like crap at 9am and like I'm drugged. I even saw a doctor for it and we traced it to late morning blood sugar syndrome. Told me to get a second shift job.  Again, biologically we are not wired the same and our genetically wired clocks don't care about corporate hours. 

 

Given that I see so many IT guys under 30 years old and weigh 275lb or more due to a diet of gallons of mountain dew they are just in denial. If you need that much caffeine and sugar to stay attentive you are losing a battle with mother nature.

 

I rode my bike 30miles or more a week during the summer, and am in a 2 percentile for cardiac and get loads of excercise. 48bpm anybody? Switching to daylight savings is excruciating. For others it doesn't bother them. I start later and work later. How my body is wired. Don't care what yours is, so go have a mountain dew and keep your future endocrinologist employed.

 

 

 

[dalekphalm]

@Stahlmann I'm not going to disregard the possibility of a medical condition affecting your sleep cycle.

 

However, you need to take responsibility for that.

 

I see two realistic outcomes here, long term:

1. You get a night shift job

2. You get a better alarm

 

Someone else already suggested it above, but they make alarms for heavy sleepers, or people with hard of hearing/deafness. These alarms usually will physically vibrate.

 

They come in different forms. Some of them have bracelets you wear. Others have pads that you put under your bedsheet on top of the mattress.

 

Additionally, some things that might help:

- Melatonin, or other similar sleep aids. Ideally a non-dependency forming one (Regular sleeping pills tend to be dependency forming if you keep using them for long period).
- Consider getting a Sunlight Alarm, in addition to your main alarm. This is a light that will turn on, simulating sunlight.

 

Great that you can get accommodations from your boss, but that won't always be the case (Or there will be situations where for non-work related reasons you have to get up early, for an appointment, etc).

[Donut417]

On 10/6/2023 at 4:56 AM, Stahlmann said:

I know this is a tech forum, but i'm hoping someone on the off-topic section has some additional insight that can help...

I push myself to sleep some night. I use caffeine, 1 drink in the morning and maybe another at lunch. I do try to keep my caffeine intake in line because I have high blood pressure and caffeine can effect that. The other thing is a strongish work ethic. Plus Im kinda a light sleeper so I defiantly hear the alarm. 

[wONKEyeYEs]

On 10/10/2023 at 10:09 PM, wseaton said:

48bpm anybody?

You flexing?

I'm a cyclist, retired, and mines 45bpm.

[E-waste]

On 10/6/2023 at 9:05 AM, Dedayog said:

It sounds like you're using a condition as an excuse to not try to adjust your life.

Joe Rogan Experience #1109 Mathew Walker, a two hour conversation, which doesn't go off-topic about aliens (which is very fun) and is PACKED with scientific research and completely valid and proven information.

[E-waste]

On 10/6/2023 at 9:30 AM, htimsenyawed said:

It appears to be some new age hokum, however every type listed has the waking hours between 5AM and 9AM. AM, not PM. 

The OP doesn't have this issue, but there are some, both sighted and non-sighted people, who cannot follow the Earth's 24h cycle.  The Egyptians had drawings / carvings of the pineal gland in the eye, which has something to do with light detection, and with that, regulates the body's sleep hormone melatonin production.

 

Because they (non-24) folks do not respond to the Earth's orbit of the Sun and the light/dark cycle, without any outside cues, they will either be just slightly less than 24hours cycles, or just slightly more.  It's near 23.75 to 24.25 hour circadian rhythms, without working light cues, keeping it in line.

 

Learn more about chronotypes, circadian rhythms and sleep issues and health effects from lack of sleep (as in 6 hours or five hours of sleep per night) in the Joe Rogan podcast #1109 Mathew Walker.

 

A person who only gets six hours of sleep per night will have mentally aged ten years older than themselves, vs someone who gets an adequate amount of sleep.  That's from the podcast.

[E-waste]

On 10/7/2023 at 9:08 PM, Rocketdog2112 said:

This chronotype excuse

It's 100% real. Some people (not at all the original poster) cannot biologically follow the Earth's 24h day night lighting cycle.  This is called Non-24.

 

This has been well studied since about 1860. Yes, for clarity I will type that again

 

1 8 6 0.

 

Over 150 years ago, this has been studied.  A man went to a very cold part of the Earth and lived under the ice with nothing more than FIRE as a temporary light source.  After a period of time, and keeping track of time, he figured out that his sleep and wake cycle was not following the 24h cycle of the Earth around the Sun.

 

This is because human beings must have a strong consistenr lighting cue, in the morning, during the day, and VERY dark at night.  Even the transition from sunset to darkness can help this cue, as it has been around since human beings have lived on Earth.

 

Without a cue, or a working eye gland that detects light, the human body /mind will be either just ever so slightly ahead or behind the Earth's (nearly) 24h (not exactly) cycle of day and night.

 

The numbers are 23.75 hour days and up to about 24.25 hour sleep and wake cycles.  So it takes just four days to be in literally a different timezone of your day, or a shift from standard time to daylight savings time, in half a week.

 

If you want an incredibly educational resource, Joe Rogans podcast, #1109 Mathew Walker can fill your brain with so much information that it might put you to sleep.

 

You'll definitely have to listen to it three or five times, as well as take notes, to take in all the information as it is unbelievable how much information is in that single podcast episode.

 

 

On 10/10/2023 at 1:57 AM, Mihle said:

My light in my room also turn on about 10 min before the alarms, don't know if it makes much difference but I started doing it and don't want to try to stop doing it.

Make it 45 minutes, and if possible, different presets to step the brightness every 10 minutes.  Also, more lights are probably better if it is less than 2,000, yes 2,000 lumens.  It all depends on if the light is directly shining into your eyes, has a heavy shade, and even more than all of that:

 

how far away the light is.

 

The more green light (yes, harvard medical school studied this, and up to 60 minutes, blue and green light have the same effect to slow down melatonin production, and wake up) and especially aqua/cyan (CFL bulbs have far more of this than LED) and blue is almost equally as important as aqua, those three colors are most effective at waking up / simulating sky light.

 

If you routinely struggle with sleep, I'm going to quote the author, and everyone else who mentions a schedule issue, gp ahead and spend $200 and get:

 

Retimer.

 

I will not link to it as that may seem like a paid advertisement, but I am in now way connected with the product and do not (probably should) own one.

 

It is a strong cyan-green light that shines in your eyes, which you wear on your face.  Because of distance, it being about an inch or so from your eye, it is FAR more powerful to shift your circadian rhythm if you are awake when your local timezone has not yet been graced by our beloved Sun.

 

  

On 10/6/2023 at 10:56 AM, TubsAlwaysWins said:

Relatable

If you want to try using light (almost guarenteed to help) to shift your circadian rhythm, see my post about Retimer, with no hyperlinks in my post, it cost about $180 but has been around for about 9 years or so.  It used to cost $300 with a promotion by the F.lux developers for $229, but I guess lacking awareness of the device has reduced prices.

 

On 10/10/2023 at 6:34 AM, 711jrp said:

The shifts started out,two weeks of days and one week of nights which then changed to two weeks of nights and one week of days.On an average week we would around sixty hours.

See the podcast JRE #1109 with Mathew Walker to learn about sleep!

 

On 10/6/2023 at 9:49 AM, Stahlmann said:

other solutions

Retimer, might be worth the $200 to help shift your circadian rhythm artificially, so that you can literally convince your brain that the sun rises at a different time.

 

See the podcast I have mentioned about three times now.

 

Install F.lux on your PC / laptop or use Redshift on Linux (or Gnome and KDE night color feature).

 

Purchase old style 25 watt incandescent (not 28-watt halogen, which are nearly twice as bright) or GE's PM bulb with a candle-orange hue and correlated color temperature of 1,900 Kelvin, which is nearly lower (more orange) than an actual candle.

 

Those LED bulbs are $20 though, and have a circuit board, and lots of plastic, so not sure how "green" they really are, when you could search for lead-free incandescent bulbs.

 

If you have a ton of light bulbs in general, you could use a ceiling fan that has five or more light sockets, and purchase a programmable light switch, if it is really something you end up needing to rely on, if the light from your windows don't help set your schedule on time.

 

Daylight white (6500K not 5000K) T2 Philips CFLs are an excellent choice for bright white light, strong aqua, a spike of green and then smooth amount of green light, all the way to violet.

 

Five of those, with the CFL style bulbs having a slow brightening effect for several minutes, would be an excellent way to simulate a sunrise.

 

Reducing both contrast, and brightness (backlight adjustsments lead to flickering, wave hand in front of screen for proof) and setting the color temp to warm (minimal effect but it's somewhat helpful) can reduce the light output of a television while winding down.

 

Using inverted color mode on your phone or tablet for apps where it forces you to only see red green blue full strength white background, can significantly decrease light output.

 

Darkreader can allow you to set the font and background color of all webpages, there is a dark and light mode, and I have asked the dev to include more custom profiles in the settings, hopefully that's easy to program.

 

Eat at nearly exactly the same time, for all meals, every single day.  This is a very strong cue for your circadian rhythm, not quite as much as light but a close second.

[E-waste]

On 10/10/2023 at 1:57 AM, Mihle said:

My light in my room also turn on about 10 min before the alarms, don't know if it makes much difference but I started doing it and don't want to try to stop doing it.

Make it 45 minutes, and if possible, different presets to step the brightness every 10 minutes.  Also, more lights are probably better if it is less than 2,000, yes 2,000 lumens.  It all depends on if the light is directly shining into your eyes, has a heavy shade, and even more than all of that:

 

how far away the light is.

 

The more green light (yes, harvard medical school studied this, and up to 60 minutes, blue and green light have the same effect to slow down melatonin production, and wake up) and especially aqua/cyan (CFL bulbs have far more of this than LED) and blue is almost equally as important as aqua, those three colors are most effective at waking up / simulating sky light.

 

If you routinely struggle with sleep, I'm going to quote the author, and everyone else who mentions a schedule issue, gp ahead and spend $200 and get:

 

Retimer.

 

I will not link to it as that may seem like a paid advertisement, but I am in now way connected with the product and do not (probably should) own one.

 

It is a strong cyan-green light that shines in your eyes, which you wear on your face.  Because of distance, it being about an inch or so from your eye, it is FAR more powerful to shift your circadian rhythm if you are awake when your local timezone has not yet been graced by our beloved Sun.

 

  

On 10/6/2023 at 10:56 AM, TubsAlwaysWins said:

Relatable

If you want to try using light (almost guarenteed to help) to shift your circadian rhythm, see my post about Retimer, with no hyperlinks in my post, it cost about $180 but has been around for about 9 years or so.  It used to cost $300 with a promotion by the F.lux developers for $229, but I guess lacking awareness of the device has reduced prices.

[E-waste]

On 10/6/2023 at 10:56 AM, TubsAlwaysWins said:

Relatable

If you want to try using light (almost guarenteed to help) to shift your circadian rhythm, see my post about Retimer, with no hyperlinks in my post, it cost about $180 but has been around for about 9 years or so.  It used to cost $300 with a promotion by the F.lux developers for $229, but I guess lacking awareness of the device has reduced prices.

[Mihle]

7 hours ago, E-waste said:

Make it 45 minutes, and if possible, different presets to step the brightness every 10 minutes.  Also, more lights are probably better if it is less than 2,000, yes 2,000 lumens.  It all depends on if the light is directly shining into your eyes, has a heavy shade, and even more than all of that:

For me personally it's just a smart switch so it's just a 2700k light that turns on. GU10 bulbs that one of them is pointed right at my face. Unsure if it does much tho.

7 hours ago, E-waste said:

how far away the light is.

 

Install F.lux on your PC / laptop or use Redshift on Linux (or Gnome and KDE night color feature).

Can only affect how fast you fall asleep, not how well you sleep or wake up, some personally have no effect from that as that isn't an issue I have. Might help OP tho.

7 hours ago, E-waste said:

 

Using inverted color mode on your phone or tablet for apps where it forces you to only see red green blue full strength white background, can significantly decrease light output.

 

Darkreader can allow you to set the font and background color of all webpages, there is a dark and light mode, and I have asked the dev to include more custom profiles in the settings, hopefully that's easy to program.

 

In Dark Reader you can set it to sepia, aka Brown if you want. (I don't)

I personally use dark mode  everywhere but nothing to do with sleep for me personally.

[Dedayog]

13 hours ago, E-waste said:

It's 100% real. Some people (not at all the original poster) cannot biologically follow the Earth's 24h day night lighting cycle.  This is called Non-24.

 

This has been well studied since about 1860. Yes, for clarity I will type that again

 

1 8 6 0.

 

Over 150 years ago, this has been studied.  A man went to a very cold part of the Earth and lived under the ice with nothing more than FIRE as a temporary light source.  After a period of time, and keeping track of time, he figured out that his sleep and wake cycle was not following the 24h cycle of the Earth around the Sun.

 

This is because human beings must have a strong consistenr lighting cue, in the morning, during the day, and VERY dark at night.  Even the transition from sunset to darkness can help this cue, as it has been around since human beings have lived on Earth.

 

Without a cue, or a working eye gland that detects light, the human body /mind will be either just ever so slightly ahead or behind the Earth's (nearly) 24h (not exactly) cycle of day and night.

 

The numbers are 23.75 hour days and up to about 24.25 hour sleep and wake cycles.  So it takes just four days to be in literally a different timezone of your day, or a shift from standard time to daylight savings time, in half a week.

 

If you want an incredibly educational resource, Joe Rogans podcast, #1109 Mathew Walker can fill your brain with so much information that it might put you to sleep.

 

You'll definitely have to listen to it three or five times, as well as take notes, to take in all the information as it is unbelievable how much information is in that single podcast episode.

 

 

Make it 45 minutes, and if possible, different presets to step the brightness every 10 minutes.  Also, more lights are probably better if it is less than 2,000, yes 2,000 lumens.  It all depends on if the light is directly shining into your eyes, has a heavy shade, and even more than all of that:

 

how far away the light is.

 

The more green light (yes, harvard medical school studied this, and up to 60 minutes, blue and green light have the same effect to slow down melatonin production, and wake up) and especially aqua/cyan (CFL bulbs have far more of this than LED) and blue is almost equally as important as aqua, those three colors are most effective at waking up / simulating sky light.

 

If you routinely struggle with sleep, I'm going to quote the author, and everyone else who mentions a schedule issue, gp ahead and spend $200 and get:

 

Retimer.

 

I will not link to it as that may seem like a paid advertisement, but I am in now way connected with the product and do not (probably should) own one.

 

It is a strong cyan-green light that shines in your eyes, which you wear on your face.  Because of distance, it being about an inch or so from your eye, it is FAR more powerful to shift your circadian rhythm if you are awake when your local timezone has not yet been graced by our beloved Sun.

 

  

If you want to try using light (almost guarenteed to help) to shift your circadian rhythm, see my post about Retimer, with no hyperlinks in my post, it cost about $180 but has been around for about 9 years or so.  It used to cost $300 with a promotion by the F.lux developers for $229, but I guess lacking awareness of the device has reduced prices.

 

See the podcast JRE #1109 with Mathew Walker to learn about sleep!

 

Retimer, might be worth the $200 to help shift your circadian rhythm artificially, so that you can literally convince your brain that the sun rises at a different time.

 

See the podcast I have mentioned about three times now.

 

Install F.lux on your PC / laptop or use Redshift on Linux (or Gnome and KDE night color feature).

 

Purchase old style 25 watt incandescent (not 28-watt halogen, which are nearly twice as bright) or GE's PM bulb with a candle-orange hue and correlated color temperature of 1,900 Kelvin, which is nearly lower (more orange) than an actual candle.

 

Those LED bulbs are $20 though, and have a circuit board, and lots of plastic, so not sure how "green" they really are, when you could search for lead-free incandescent bulbs.

 

If you have a ton of light bulbs in general, you could use a ceiling fan that has five or more light sockets, and purchase a programmable light switch, if it is really something you end up needing to rely on, if the light from your windows don't help set your schedule on time.

 

Daylight white (6500K not 5000K) T2 Philips CFLs are an excellent choice for bright white light, strong aqua, a spike of green and then smooth amount of green light, all the way to violet.

 

Five of those, with the CFL style bulbs having a slow brightening effect for several minutes, would be an excellent way to simulate a sunrise.

 

Reducing both contrast, and brightness (backlight adjustsments lead to flickering, wave hand in front of screen for proof) and setting the color temp to warm (minimal effect but it's somewhat helpful) can reduce the light output of a television while winding down.

 

Using inverted color mode on your phone or tablet for apps where it forces you to only see red green blue full strength white background, can significantly decrease light output.

 

Darkreader can allow you to set the font and background color of all webpages, there is a dark and light mode, and I have asked the dev to include more custom profiles in the settings, hopefully that's easy to program.

 

Eat at nearly exactly the same time, for all meals, every single day.  This is a very strong cue for your circadian rhythm, not quite as much as light but a close second.

That is some very informative and interesting stuff you posted.

 

Are we going with the OP really has this issue, or if you read a bit into it... does he just not really want to go to bed on time?  

 

I look at it like more of a child not wanting to go to sleep, you look at it like the Heaven's have marked the poor lad like Harry Potter and he has the weight of the world on his shoulders and there are only indepth scientific solutions, where he needs to blast photons into his eyes to fool himself.

 

Reminds me of the poor girl who was a breatharian that died, starved to death it was?  Here's the proponent of it...

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jasmuheen

 

At some point, things are a bit foolish and we need to work to convince ourselves that maybe we're being a little dumb.  Rather than coming up with seemingly plausible links to rationalizations from 1860 or twisting science to fit the narrative we need.

 

Then again, every child I see has been diagnosed with ADHD.  Or maybe kids just don't have attention spans yet?

 

Unless the OP is one of what 0.000001% of people with this issue?  

 

Hard to argue that was a society, as we age and grow, we are looking for ways to explain why and how we are.   How we can make society fit us, rather than us fit it.  I choose to try to fit society, as it makes like easier and more lucrative for me.  Others results may vary I guess.

 

Best of luck to the OP, hope he can find a good compromise to his issue and the personal/societal issues he's experiencing at work.

[Stahlmann]

1 hour ago, Dedayog said:

Best of luck to the OP, hope he can find a good compromise to his issue and the personal/societal issues he's experiencing at work.

I already found a compromise/solution with my boss. It remains to be seen how my colleagues put up with it long-term. I didn't see any signs of disapproval so far.

 

This thread has made me reconsider some more and i have begun to doubt the "findings" from my doctor. (I've never been to an actual sleep laboratory) So regardless if i have a medical condition or not. It doesn't hurt to get to a new agreement with my boss that results in me being more happy with my work hours and being more productive during these new hours.

 

And this really is purely a work issue. My personal life isn't really negatively impacted by this more nocturnal life.

 

[Stahlmann]

4 minutes ago, htimsenyawed said:

Please don’t tell me you went to either a witch doctor or, apparently, took a podcast seriously. 

I went to my normal doctor. The same that is also the first contact i go to with any other medical problem.

[E-waste]

9 hours ago, Mihle said:

it's just a 2700k light that turns on

Since you have a yellow tone light, it does not have much blue or aqua, but there will be quite a decent amount of green light.  I will continue to repeat that both green and blue light has the same effect to reduce or slow down melatonin production, but up to an hour

 

After that 60 minutes, blue light becomes twice as effective.  It may seem very strange, but try putting the light as close to you as possible and using a lamp with a bendable metal neck, so that you can literally position it directly in your face, and 100% of the light gets reflected back into your face.

 

If you have any other lights that you can swap in that are more like daylight, this would help a bit more.  Also, if it is daylight when you wake up, go outside soon.  This is free sunlight to tell your body it is daytime.  If you are still sleepy and groggy, I recommend having the lamp turn on 10 minutes earlier every day, and turning on every possible light.  This way, you can artificially shift your schedule, so that when the electric light does wake you, you'll be on an earlier schedule than the actual sun.

 

Also, reducing all light exposure to an earlier time of day, 6 P.M. at the latest, doing all you need to do to be ready for sleep, and already have eaten, you can wear an eye mask or purchase blackout shades if light pollution is visible inside.

 

These changes can take up to two weeks for effects.  There is a study where a group of people went camping as a sleep study, and at the end, everyone was waking up within a 30-minute span.  So light and possibly fresh air, relaxation etc has a huge impact.

 

Also, most importantly and 100% overlooked in modern society, we live by the Sun lights schedules snd we are seasonal animals.  We are not robots that can wake up at the same time, every morning, 365 days a year naturally.  Modern society doesn't care about this at all, and doesn't care about sleep.

 

In the Winter time, nights are about 12-14 hours, and naturally, we should be sleeping much longer during this time of the year.  Due to not only artificial lighting, but modern schedules which demand our bodies to un-naturally stay on a summer-time level of sleep (maybe 7 hours of sleep, and 8 if you can quickly fall asleep on time) this is not at all an acceptable of healthy level of sleep year-round, and there is basically zero awareness of this.  Sleep deprivation has a huge list of health concequences, and if we were all aware of that list, money would be less enticing, to chronically deprive our health all year long, year after year.  I have already listed the podcast episode, so everyone in this thread should watch it.