Gamers Nexus alleges LMG has insufficient ethics and integrity

[coopa]

2 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

We talk constantly about how we intend to move forward and make better content. It's just taking longer than any of us would like. If everything had gone according to plan, we'd have our camera range, theater room, and acoustic chamber done like 6 months ago. Instead our warehouse is torn apart right now because they had to reinforce our roof in order to support the heat pumps that we've been trying to get procured since last summer.

The real world is messy, and the more cooks you have in the kitchen, the more room there is for error.

 

With that said, if all you want is a non-ambiguous statement that we're going to keep trying to get better, then here it is. We're going to keep trying to get better. Gary did a wonderful 'state-of-the-union' update for the company this morning about recent milestones and what we have in store. Those investments will keep flowing, and I promise that they will be a win for consumers and the tech industry.

For now, it's hard to do because I'm frustrated by the timelines too, but all I can do is say, "Stay tuned. it's upward from here and we're really excited."

Quoting your entire statement to paraphrase a part of it:

 

3 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

With that said, if all you want is a non-ambiguous statement that we're going to keep trying to get better, then here it is. We're going to keep trying to get better. Gary did a wonderful 'state-of-the-union' update for the company this morning about recent milestones and what we have in store. Those investments will keep flowing, and I promise that they will be a win for consumers and the tech industry.

Other than the "we're going to keep trying to get better", the rest seems like wishy-washy corporate statements about a generic slideshow, what you plan to do, etc. etc... and "I promise they will be a win for consumers and the tech industry" is classic corporate "we are deeply concerned" speak. It's noncommittal to anything that was addressed in the video with vague promises to improve.

 

I urge you, please, take a day, two days, three days, a week, etc. to come up with a cohesive and heartfelt response. This is not feeling authentic, nor does it feel that it honestly addresses the issue from GNs video.

[quacker]

3 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

We talk constantly about how we intend to move forward and make better content. It's just taking longer than any of us would like. If everything had gone according to plan, we'd have our camera range, theater room, and acoustic chamber done like 6 months ago. Instead our warehouse is torn apart right now because they had to reinforce our roof in order to support the heat pumps that we've been trying to get procured since last summer.

The real world is messy, and the more cooks you have in the kitchen, the more room there is for error.

 

With that said, if all you want is a non-ambiguous statement that we're going to keep trying to get better, then here it is. We're going to keep trying to get better. Gary did a wonderful 'state-of-the-union' update for the company this morning about recent milestones and what we have in store. Those investments will keep flowing, and I promise that they will be a win for consumers and the tech industry.

For now, it's hard to do because I'm frustrated by the timelines too, but all I can do is say, "Stay tuned. it's upward from here and we're really excited."

Unfortunately, every video you make with mistakes like these will *permanently* damage your reputation. Once people know you're willing to take shortcuts in order to keep the schedule, make more money, or what have you, there will always be doubt in their minds about your integrity. No amount of talk about "timelines" or "future improvements" will build back all the trust you throw away by rushing things. 

 

If your goal is long term stability of the company, then you cannot keep operating this way even if it makes you more money right now. The company's future is yours to destroy.

[ff2009]

3 minutes ago, IndustrialBananaBread said:

Yeah, I seriously doubt this is a hit piece by Steve. Every claim has evidence, and is well thought out and researched. I do wish he had contacted LTT directly to address his concerns, but I can see why he went public first. This kind of stuff is good to know as a fan base, instead of internal back and forth that leads nowhere. Hopefully, this puts a bit of a fire under LMG.

I don't see the need for GN to contact LMG before publishing the video.

The community has been calling out LMG for month/year and Linus has done nothing to solve the problems. He rarely admits fault of his own when he does there's always a but.

Trying to contact Linus would only delay the release of this video.

[Oilyraincloud]

10 minutes ago, LinusTech said:

We talk constantly about how we intend to move forward and make better content. It's just taking longer than any of us would like. If everything had gone according to plan, we'd have our camera range, theater room, and acoustic chamber done like 6 months ago. Instead our warehouse is torn apart right now because they had to reinforce our roof in order to support the heat pumps that we've been trying to get procured since last summer.

The real world is messy, and the more cooks you have in the kitchen, the more room there is for error.

 

With that said, if all you want is a non-ambiguous statement that we're going to keep trying to get better, then here it is. We're going to keep trying to get better. Gary did a wonderful 'state-of-the-union' update for the company this morning about recent milestones and what we have in store. Those investments will keep flowing, and I promise that they will be a win for consumers and the tech industry.

For now, it's hard to do because I'm frustrated by the timelines too, but all I can do is say, "Stay tuned. it's upward from here and we're really excited."

A brief video with a state of the union could be a good launchpad to address (directly or indirectly, your call) these issues.  I could appreciate that.

 

As for you being frustrated by the timelines, aren't they largely driven by you?  I'm not sure I completely understand your frustration if you have complete control (or at least used to before the new CEO).

Edited August 14, 2023 by Oilyraincloud
Awkward wording.

[Middcore]

1 hour ago, LinusTech said:

like the fact that we didn't 'sell' the monoblock, but rather auctioned it

 

A laughable prevarication. 

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/auction

 

Quote

a sale of property to the highest bidder

 

The rest of your response is a lot of playing the victim. Are we supposed to be sorry that Steve actually treated you guys like the multimillion dollar company you are and held you accountable for mistakes instead of giving you the "PC YouTuber good old boys fraternity" benefit of the doubt? Whatever harm GN does to you with this video won't be anywhere near as much harm as you did to Billet Labs by accepting a product and "reviewing" it with (you admit) no intention of ever doing anything except talking about how shitty it is, and that's even before we get to the matter of the sale, I'm sorry, auction. 

 

 

[RazielKanos]

2 minutes ago, VinLAURiA said:

Would it help to have a live talk segment with Steve about the situation? Not to fuel the drama, but talk about the issues in an open, direct manner that has public eyes on it.

IF ( and that's a big IF) Steve would be interested in a conversation, he would have asked for a statement, instead he chose to inflict YT drama...

[Paul Thexton]

1 minute ago, insanityclown said:

why is it concerning that GN didn’t reach out. Why is Steve obligated to reach out?

Because it’s what journalists do, and above all else, Steve makes a point of referring to what GN does as journalism.

[Blademaster91]

39 minutes ago, MageTank said:

Yeah, I think his testing methodology itself was flawless, I just find the scope weird. If you want to point out throttling in Blender, that's perfectly fine, but I'd also prefer to see some actual game performance. Then the conclusion could be "Buy this if you only want to game, but avoid this if you need to do heavy CPU rendering on the side". Most of the people that I would refer to review channels online are mostly just gamers, not people educated enough to draw their own conclusions.

 

While I personally water cool all my stuff, I don't see pairing a 5600X with a stock cooler as a bad thing. Steve mentioned in video that it is a 65w processor, and the AMD stealth cooler (assuming that is what it was based on pictures/video) is rated for 65W. The fact that it maintained a 300mhz boost on that stock cooler under Blender is impressive by itself, lol.

 

I am assuming Steve would tell people to refer to the 3060 review if they want gaming performance, but if the throttling is such a concern, I'd like to see that explored in the video itself, especially since the title of the video also refers to the system as a Gaming PC. Would have also been great to see if the extra $20 he spent on the replaced cooler improved FPS and if so, by how much? Would help inform buyers that paying X percentage more results in Y percentage performance boost.

Yeah I agree those are good points, I would've liked to see gaming benchmarks even if it means splitting up the video into a part 2.

As for the cooler, I think it was ok for the price point with the little margin Microcenter has on a mid level gaming PC, gaming benchmarks would tell if the cooler is enough for a average list of games people play that are more GPU than CPU heavy, that review was definitely kind of odd with no gaming tests.

 

23 minutes ago, thecremeegg said:

On the WAN show where he addressed this video, he doubled down and said that even if it was 20 degrees cooler he'd still say not to buy it, so he had no intention whatsoever of giving it a good review because of the price. He knew the price before he got the product, so he knew he had no intention of a good review, pretty vindictive imo.

So he doubled down instead of at minimum apologizing for using the wrong GPU, I find that to be really disingenuous with no excuse, and journalistically having no ethics in reviewing a product. On top of that Linus knew the company couldn't go after him for selling a prototype and he could just pay them off for the price of the water block, even though it might cost the company to make a sample of the same quality, in addition to this Linus already stated he isn't changing how they deal with review products. This is just overall terrible and I can't trust them for any reviews, even with their labs data its still questionable IMO.

[jooroth18]

I swear everytime i see an asterisk now in an LTT video i will think of this moment.

[TomTesch]

1 hour ago, LinusTech said:

Getting all the details before publication is *NOT* the opposite of journalistic integrity.

This isn't about being on a side... There's no war. You don't need to fight. You need to slow down and think.... 

“You need to slow down and think…” Funny,  that is exactly what GN is asking LMG to do

[NoseyTable]

3 minutes ago, insanityclown said:

why is it concerning that GN didn’t reach out. Why is Steve obligated to reach out?

 

Just now, Paul Thexton said:

Because it’s what journalists do, and above all else, Steve makes a point of referring to what GN does as journalism.

Agreed

[maxstuff.net]

2 minutes ago, Merciless SOZ said:

4.  Framework - Linus has been transparent about his investment and most if not all content that could include possible conflicts of interest seems to include this caveat.  Don't agree with this criticism at all.

I think that sometimes he skims over the disclosure a little bit "invested in Framework laptop", it'd be good to have a text disclaimer with a full explanation of the investment. For new viewers they might not even know what the laptop is

[Jeffy277]

@LinusTech trust me bro to not go the extra mile when it comes to complete data.

 

trust me bro when I tell you we screw up on purpose and don’t care because it makes more entertaining videos

 

trust me bro when I show you time and time again that I don’t care about integrity.

 

trust me bro when I say LMG is a profit first company.

 

I think we’re all seeing the man behind the mask Linus.  Sorry but it’s not pretty.

 

The only thing that’ll save you is slowing down, retooling, not making mistakes, not going after bottom barrel (10 things I bought will make you cringe) content, and apologizing with a road map to improve.  Else we’re just going to have to trust that everything you’ve showed us is all you can ever be, and that’s unfortunate.

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, Oilyraincloud said:

I guess all I care about at this point is a brief statement on how LMG will move forward while generating better content.  A lot of it does feel rushed these days.  Some videos abruptly end when I feel certain ideas or concepts hadn't really concluded yet (I went back and watched the Billet video and this had that feeling, as well as the most recent AMD Ultimate Tech Upgrade -- seeing the projector get installed would be neat, or maybe just cut out the work that went on in that room so I don't feel teased).

Absolutely agree with this. @LinusTech (and/or new CEO) get your shit together and produce videos with substance. No one wants one every day if they are just bound to be sloppy crap.

[Middcore]

5 minutes ago, insanityclown said:

why is it concerning that GN didn’t reach out. Why is Steve obligated to reach out?

 

Because people who think Linus is their friend due to their parasocial attachment to him think that this is just a private matter to be resolved between Linus and Steve as friends rather than a journalist holding a prominent company accountable for mistakes. They feel betrayed vicariously. 

[Musty]

Just now, insanityclown said:

why is it concerning that GN didn’t reach out. Why is Steve obligated to reach out?

It's just good practice to get good sides of the picture isn't it? He isn't obligated to do it but, integrity wise, it's important. There is a reason most articles end with a statement about reaching out to the subject of an article for comment (if their comments aren't included in the article already). To show they have done their due diligence to get the full story. 

[RazielKanos]

1 minute ago, ff2009 said:

I don't see the need for GN to contact LMG before publishing the video.

The community has been calling out LMG for month/year and Linus has done nothing to solve the problems. He rarely admits fault of his own when he does there's always a but.

Trying to contact Linus would only delay the release of this video.

then don't call it "investigative journalism" if you are too lazy to "investigate" and get feedback from all sides of the story

[maxstuff.net]

2 minutes ago, Middcore said:

 

A laughable prevarication. 

 

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/auction

 

 

The rest of your response is a lot of playing the victim. Are we supposed to be sorry that Steve actually treated you guys like the multimillion dollar company you are and held you accountable for mistakes instead of giving you the "PC YouTuber good old boys fraternity" benefit of the doubt? Whatever harm GN does to you with this video won't be anywhere near as much harm as you did to Billet Labs by accepting a product and "reviewing" it with (you admit) no intention of ever doing anything except talking about how shitty it is, and that's even before we get to the matter of the sale, I'm sorry, auction. 

 

 

I think they may be pointing to the fact that it was for charity.

[Forbidden Wafer]

34 minutes ago, Simondo87 said:

Did the CEO of Billet send you that?

Exactly. Just because you're big, you can't go around wrecking or disregarding other companies. 

 

I've been following LTT since the beginning, have been on the forums for a very long while (deleted the old account due to a jerk from the forums creating fake accounts pretending to be me), but this was way too much. 

 

You had inventory tracking since forever. How come there's no connection between a seeded engineering sample/prototype and related communication? 

 

Why should a startup ever send new stuff again for review?

 

There's no guarantee things will be properly evaluated, you can get flak for no good reason, and there's still a chance your prototype will be sold for third-parties. 

 

I don't think any company would complain about a real accident, just like museums don't go after people that accidently damage/destroy their pieces.

 

Selling the thing was on a completely different level. 

[ToboRobot]

Just now, insanityclown said:

why is it concerning that GN didn’t reach out. Why is Steve obligated to reach out?

Generally journalists will reach for comment on a story to gather and confirm facts, and get comment from parties involved in the story.

I think it's more of a guideline than a rule, but that's just my laymans take on journalistic standards.

[Dom1252]

7 minutes ago, True said:

ok what a cluster duck.
 

Ok i have NOT watched the video yet..  but i have read the summery and @LinusTech posts.

As someone who works for tech company in IT i can TOTALY believe this happened and it was not malicious  but a issue where documentation was not properly attached to item and it going rogue in system and someone using for something it wasn't intended for then disposing of it.   I have seen more then one "compliance officer" hired due to something like this happening and it being part of a legal settlement.       

I am somewhat surprised GN would do a piece on  LTT without going to Linus for comment.      This is concerning..    

maybe watch it? 

why do you assume anyone at LTT would read documentation? there's no time for that, it would cost money

[HaddaClu]

1 hour ago, LinusTech said:

There are other issues, but I've told him that I won't be drawn into a public sniping match over this and that I'll be continuing to move forward in good faith as part of 'Team Media'. When/if he's ready to do so again I'll be ready.

Just stop.... I can smell the cow shit from here; a continent away. You literally dragged him through the mud in the WAN Show segment - all but outright saying Gamers Nexus.  He and his team had the good graces to not say anything when the Lab Tour video was making the rounds; but you just had to say "F*** You." There's something important you need to do......it's called learn to shut up at the appropriate moment.

[LinusTech]

5 minutes ago, NoseyTable said:

Personally, I feel that GN could have handled this a whole lot better than they did.  Sure, raise issues that you feel are necessary, but surely asking LTT for a comment would've been a logical step as well?  

Look, I know LTT is not perfect, but I truly believe that they are trying and I don't for a second buy into the conspiracy that they are only in it for the money.  They could've cashed out probably more than once if that was the case. Sure, its a business, but the passion in their work is palpable.

Do they make mistakes? Sure.  I mean, as a network engineer I sometimes want to scream at my monitor when they get something wrong, but then I remember that not everyone could get everything right and we're all along for the journey of them discovering and learning about tech, not because Linus is the infallible authority on all things technological.  Obviously they are working on their processes, especially with regards to the Lab and the testing methodology.  Its a work in progress, and they have been quite open about it.  (Also, saying that they affect the purchasing decisions is true, but I also remember more than one occasion where Linus stresses the need to view multiple reviews and only then form your opinion.)

 

Then comes the Billet Labs debacle.  Sure, this is definitely not ideal. A real blunder, in fact.  But need I remind anyone that people make mistakes?  Sure, this is bad, but the amount of people saying that it was intentional and that LTT did not care obviously have not spent any real time watching these hosts.  Also, who cares what steps are taken to resolve this?  If Billet is willing to take monetary compensation for the accidental auctioning of this item, surely that is their prerogative?  In the end, they are the ones who decide if they are happy with the steps taken to resolve this, not all of us.  After all, it was their prototype.

 

Personally, this has left a really bad taste in my mouth with regards to GN, especially because Steve insinuated constantly about Linus' (and the LTT team's) motivation for doing things. Not suggesting it, but outright saying why he and his team are making certain decisions.  I feel that it is incredibly unfair and in bad taste.

@LinusTech  I hope that the rest of you and your team's day is better, and I'm sorry for this.  Y'all deserved better.

We are using this, like everything else, to continue to drive ourselves to do better. Got some really exciting stuff in the holster

 

A really good one - and the video where I actually FOUND the 3090 Ti that we were supposed to send back to Billet... grrr... - is kind of an undercover boss vid where I go and work in our logistics department for the day. This is the kind of thing I'm finding more time for in the new role and is already making a difference to some of our practices. 

[LinusAuctionTips]

Just now, ToboRobot said:

Generally journalists will reach for comment on a story to gather and confirm facts, and get comment from parties involved in the story.

I think it's more of a guideline than a rule, but that's just my laymans take on journalistic standards.

I would agree with that. Not trying to start a flame war, merely point out that GN is not obligated to do so. I feel like this was likely a judgement call on GN’s part considering they have definitely reached out to manufacturer’s for comment on issues before.

[SinusSebastian]

@LinusTech Most of us understand that this was a blindside, and good on you for standing up for your team.

 

Speaking directly about the data concerns, I do think it's important to take Steve's criticisms here heavily (and to an extent HU's). For the past 1-2 years, your videos have been enthusiastic and exciting for a lot of us in the prospect of Labs: a definitive place to find hard data to directly support the consumer. 

 

If Labs is to match your vision, it won't be the amount you spend in equipment, but the surgical process in which you scrutinize and scrub your own findings. And this is all I'm (read: a single viewer) hoping you consider.

 

The errors in the videos are not a huge deal. You push a lot of videos, and mistakes in a high tempo environment will happen. Catching and correcting is the expected bare minimum, which you do. Reshooting really isn't feasible. Cutting content during final polish is a solution I would consider (such as GNs example with the Alienware build) where applicable.

 

I'm confident you'll take something from this and better your content and self from this. I've never been in this position so I have no idea what this must feel like. Looking forward to your next moves.