“Starting at” is the Biggest Lie in Tech

[JordB]

It’s easy to look at the ‘starting at’ price for a new laptop and think it’s a great deal. But when you look closer, it’s a lie. That entry level config is barely good enough for what you need to do today, let alone tomorrow, and you can’t even upgrade the thing after you buy it!

[WolframaticAlpha]

THIS! I was going to make a thread before, but didn't want some of the fanboys on the forum to hog the thread. Apple's upgrade pricing is so bullshit. In order to have even a semi usable config of the Macbook pro 13, you end up paying close to MBP14 prices. The air is shit value, because the laptop moves from a 1000 dollar machine to a 1700 dollar machine by the time you have a spec that isn't instant ewaste. This instantly prevented me from even touching apple.

 

While PC manufacturers(especially dell) do this shit too, their prices aren't as bad as apple. With Apple I am typically paying about 6-8x the standard price for upgrades, whereas on the PC side it is closer to 2-3x. Fuck their predatory jackass pricing. The fact that 256 gig configs are still being sold by dell/apple/hp etc without upgrades for 1000+ dollars is absolutely asinine. Fuck them.

 

Also the profit margin argument about Intel, Nvidia, Ti etc doesn't make sense, since research+infrastructure costs relative to their revenue is significantly higher than that of apple. Chipmakers have high profit margins because most of that money is churned back into products and infra. That is why even though their gross profits and margins look insanely high, their adjusted earnings aren't that much, whereas Apple has a lot higher adjusted earnings, even relative to their profits.

[Needfuldoer]

Automakers do the same thing. You can get the de-contented, stripped out, base model for the advertised price, but good luck actually finding one of those. They mostly exist on paper so they can advertise a tantalizing price and make you think you're getting a mid-tier option package.

[jfred]

I think the right move here (in addition to, yes, helping people do component-level repairs and upgrades) is to do what the MNT Reform is doing and put the parts that need to be fast on the same module as the CPU. I know Linus laughed a bit when I sent in a link during WAN Show a while back (the first module is obscenely slow by modern standards) but it’s doing just that - CPU and RAM are on the compute module, and the things that don’t need to be quite as fast (NVMe storage, display, peripherals) are connected via the motherboard.

 

Apple could make an M2 module with all the fast integrated memory they want, and you could plug it into the same motherboard that’s already in the laptop to upgrade it to something with competitive performance. They’ll never do that, but you get the idea. My point is a modular laptop like this can work, and as Linus mentioned in the video, the excuses given for soldering everything down fall flat.

[Senzelian]

Corporations make bad offers, but the people are the ones supporting them by buying the product.

[NF-A12x25]

1 minute ago, Senzelian said:

Corporations make bad offers, but the ones supporting them are still the people.

what are “the people” to do- there is no affordable way to exist in the system without supporting one evil corporation or another. I live on a farm and get most of our food from another farm and I’m very lucky to not have to support a lot of corporate fuckery but even we still have to buy some of our stuff online, or from some random company

 

most people don’t “support” them, they’re forced to patronize them or starve. Almost nothing we touch nowadays hasn’t passed through a succession of evil corporations

[Senzelian]

8 minutes ago, NF-A12x25 said:

what are “the people” to do- there is no affordable way to exist in the system without supporting one evil corporation or another. I live on a farm and get most of our food from another farm and I’m very lucky to not have to support a lot of corporate fuckery but even we still have to buy some of our stuff online, or from some random company

 

most people don’t “support” them, they’re forced to patronize them or starve. Almost nothing we touch nowadays hasn’t passed through a succession of evil corporations

Yes of course, but that doesn't change anything. I'm not saying that they're necessarily evil or that you should be living in a forest and eating snails, but instead that people should actually invest 2 minutes and do some research. The problem here isn't the 20% whose choice consists of "bad company A" and "bad company B", but instead it's the 80% that simply buy whatever it is from any company just because they want that thing for whatever the dumb reason is they come up with this time.

 

Or to make it even shorter:

 

Good: "I need a good config Macbook Pro for work"

Bad: "I need a Macbook Pro because it's the best and I use it very often and it looks so good and I like the logo and my old one is already 3 months old, ewww"

 

Edit: I remember someone saying "What else is there to buy stuff from, other than Amazon? That's the only store, right?"
That's what I mean.

[NF-A12x25]

26 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

Edit: I remember someone saying "What else is there to buy stuff from, other than Amazon? That's the only store, right?"

[hftvhftv]

I don’t appreciate glossing over the fact that Apple has system memory on the same die as the CPU. It’s not standard chips that are soldered to the board like their older laptops. 
 

Still is egregious that they charge so much though. 

[sub68]

2 hours ago, Needfuldoer said:

Automakers do the same thing. You can get the de-contented, stripped out, base model for the advertised price, but good luck actually finding one of those. They mostly exist on paper so they can advertise a tantalizing price and make you think you're getting a mid-tier option package.

I have seen alot of base cars but its if you do fleet sales.

[dogwitch]

isp do this now.

charging for wifi.

that already built into the cost of the router/modem combo.

[hishnash]

3 hours ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

Also the profit margin argument about Intel, Nvidia, Ti etc doesn't make sense, since research+infrastructure costs relative to their revenue is significantly higher than that of apple.

Apple does just as much R&D they are not a dell that is just buying parts and shipping OEM products.  They build an OS, they design silicon CPUs and GPUs and they have the overhead of running consumer support etc.   Apple spends much more on R&D than NV (who are fabless remember). 

[snet0]

Is this video not a gigantic conflict of interest for Linus, given his holdings in Framework? Presenting commentary on one of the largest issues facing non-upgradable electronics, specifically laptops, when he's a shareholder in a company that "solves" this problem, and not discussing this during the video?

[hishnash]

3 hours ago, jfred said:

Apple could make an M2 module with all the fast integrated memory they want, and you could plug it into the same motherboard that’s already in the laptop to upgrade it to something with competitive performance. They’ll never do that, but you get the idea. My point is a modular laptop like this can work, and as Linus mentioned in the video, the excuses given for soldering everything down fall flat.

Any interact connection like that will add cost and use space compared to just having a PCB that you mount it to with a BGA solder solution.   To avoid z-height you are realy talking bout splitting out part of the mainboard and having some form of horizontal bridging connector.  Building something like this that is going to stand up to shipping and laptop usage (variation, drops etc) is not going to be cheap and might use a lot of space.   

Also most for the rest of the mainboard other than the SSD NAND chips is rather cheap, it would be cheaper to just replace that entier board on upgrade (if the NAND was separated) than to pay for the fancy connector and the space impact this would have.   

The modular main-board all it realy needs I to change it to take the same NAND modules as the studio and macPro and for apple to add a diagnostic mode so that you can transfer your Secure Enclave keys somehow from one mainboard to another (with the users passcode of cource) to allow you to have data continuity. 

IO boards etc are already separated form the mainboard on the Mac laptops (to protect the mainboard from cracking that can happen through someone pushing down on a plugged in connector on other devices). 

[hishnash]

1 minute ago, snet0 said:

when he's a shareholder in a company that "solves" this problem

Solves is a stretch, framework laptops do not have great mem bandwidth nor do they have very good battery life.  More like avoids by not attempting to compete in that market. 

[AndreiArgeanu]

Yeah. That's always been a big pet peeve of mine. Especially with apple products. 600$ starting price for an m2 mini? Great, but if you want a usable amount of memory and storage. Say a 16gb ram + 512gb storage config you're looking at a 1k amount. 200$ for memory is egregious, what's even worse is the 200$ to get a mere extra 256gb of storage. You can get 1TB of PCIE 5.0 storage for 20$ less or 50$ less for a top of the line 990 Pro 2TB PCIE 4.0 ssd and it's either the 200$ upgrade or forever using external storage because Apple engineers will never be able to find the space inside any mac for a drive the size of a stick of gum.

[snet0]

Quote

Solves is a stretch, framework laptops do not have great mem bandwidth nor do they have very good battery life.  More like avoids by not attempting to compete in that market. 

This is true, which is why I used quotation marks. It's not a stretch to recognise that there is a conflict of interest here, though.

[Catzzye]

Great video. I really like Apple's stuff, but the markup on those essential upgrades like to 16GB and 512GB SSD are waaay too high. They either need to start at those or slash the price at least in half imo.

[Vishera]

You should have made this video 9 years ago.

[Needfuldoer]

58 minutes ago, snet0 said:

Is this video not a gigantic conflict of interest for Linus, given his holdings in Framework? Presenting commentary on one of the largest issues facing non-upgradable electronics, specifically laptops, when he's a shareholder in a company that "solves" this problem, and not discussing this during the video?

He discloses his investment in Framework when using them as a point of comparison at around the 10:29 mark.

 

 

[gammelfleisch]

Important topic, but could you get closer matches for the parts costs you're comparing?

 

Going to Newegg and searching laptop memory is a starting point and a good reference for what an upgrade should cost, but the first two examples shown in the video are LP-DDR4, not DDR5, and comparing 2666MT/s to 6400MT/s is a bad start (so is showing 16gb as two 8gb DIMMs but more on that later).

The next ones taken from what looks like a pcpartpickers screenshot are DDR5, so they are closer to what's in the laptop.

Two of the modules don't have a model number attached, so it's hard to find what ICs are actually used. 

Crucial CT8G48C40S8U5, shown in the middle, is a DDR-5 (not LP-DDR5) desktop module.
So that's the quality of the provided baselines for the pricing.

 

If you look at the M2, there are only two Memory Chips, while the 8gb modules shown in the screenshots also have 2 Chips.

This is because the smallest capacity (and cheapest) LPDDR5 chips available are 32Gb = 4GB, so two are needed for an 8GB stick.

Now on the m2, we always have 2 ICs, regardless of the memory specced. The higher capacity gets achieved by getting higher-density chips.

We can't just add two more chips and call it a day.

 

Let's price the cost of the upgrade 8->16 by looking at chips costs.

If you look on a more specialized site like Mouser or Digikey, you can find pricing information for these memory chips.

By filtering for an lpddr5 memory chip that does 3.2ghz (so 6400MT/s like the one used on m2) with a capacity of 64Gb ((64Gb*2)/8=16GB), we get chips like the MT62F1G64D8EK-031 WT from micron with the lowest price being ~41$/chip for a lot of 1500, leading us to ~82$ for the 16GB. 

Now apple doesn't pay that price in full, it probably gets a hefty discount. 

And you also have to discount the fact that you don't need two 32Gb chips anymore, but this is still higher than the example above that showed random SO-Dimms.

 

A better way to model pricing might be to find SO-Dimm modules containing ICs with the specs mentioned above in a retail setting to better estimate of production costs at scale. Apple only gives us 3 bits of info: 6400MT/s, LP-DDR 5 and 2 ICs, so matching that blow for blow shouldn't be above the LTT quality standards.

 

As a Consumer I care about the pricing discrepancies and the gouging at the checkout. These weird price examples make your argument look weak, especially considering the pricing differences on the SSD side, which are much wilder, even if looking at low order numbers.

Please try to get better pricing proxies in the future and maybe introduce the examples a bit more than just flashing them on screen, hoping that no one notices. I'd love to have a "right to repair is needed"-type video with as much effort put into it as something like the powersupply projects, because right now the pre-production effort seems a bit weak compared with other LTT projects.

 

Best Wishes and continue the good fight!

[marcgii]

@LinusTech Have you seen what Dell is charging for their CAMM memory modules?  It's actually hilarious.

 

https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-camm-memory-upgrade-32gb-4800mhz/apd/370-ahft/memory

https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-camm-memory-upgrade-128gb-3600mhz/apd/370-ahfr/memory

$320 16GB 4800MHz

$630 32GB 4800MHz

~$1200  64 GB 5600 MHz (US listing missing)

$2500  128GB 3600MHz

 

Right now some of my office is getting upgraded laptops and they used these modules.  The IT department was supposed to get 32GB systems (which the old ones had).  But we got 16GB.  And right now getting an upgrade after the fact isn't looking likely because of these prices.

 

 

[jfred]

3 hours ago, hishnash said:

Any interact connection like that will add cost and use space compared to just having a PCB that you mount it to with a BGA solder solution.   To avoid z-height you are realy talking bout splitting out part of the mainboard and having some form of horizontal bridging connector.  Building something like this that is going to stand up to shipping and laptop usage (variation, drops etc) is not going to be cheap and might use a lot of space.

It's an edge connector, and while space was not at a premium in the Reform (it's a chonky boi) I'm pretty sure they make fairly low-profile sockets for those.

 

That said, I also think it's fine to sacrifice some z-height for modularity, even though it's not the trend these days. The old X-series ThinkPads are well-loved for good reason, it was a decently portable form factor while still being very repairable. I wouldn't mind getting back to that point.

[hishnash]

17 minutes ago, jfred said:

It's an edge connector, and while space was not at a premium in the Reform (it's a chonky boi) I'm pretty sure they make fairly low-profile sockets for those.

 

That said, I also think it's fine to sacrifice some z-height for modularity, even though it's not the trend these days. The old X-series ThinkPads are well-loved for good reason, it was a decently portable form factor while still being very repairable. I wouldn't mind getting back to that point.

Any such socket for that much IO in a slim device is going to cost a good amount, edge or compression fit.  

 

If the NAND were moved to seperate little modules then It might well increase the cost of the SOC package and the board it is connected to so much that it would be cheaper to replace the board with the SOC package, anything other the the SOC and the NAND on the main board currently is low cost parts maybe total part BOM comes to $5-$10 just a few power stages etc.  All the IO are already seperate board connected with flex cables. 

 

Adding a modular connection only makes sense if the cost of doing this is less than just replacing the entier mainboard.  

[hishnash]

2 hours ago, gammelfleisch said:

"right to repair is needed"

So the thing is right to repair is all about the "repair" part not the upgrade part.   using solder is not at all anti repair infact is very pro repair, its not glue, its also much easier and cheaper to fix than if a socket gets damaged (water damage), solder you can desolder it and then clean up the pads - re-ball and your good to go, with a LGA or PGA socket its going to cost you a LOT of time and effort to repair.   

Mixing "right to repair" with "wish to upgrade for cheap" is exactly what anti right to repair people want the media to do since it is very easier to show a modular upgradable phone and all the downsides it has and thus discredit the genuine "right to repair" needs.  These are very seperate topics, one if a right that we should fight for the other is a feature that has product tradeoffs were each product should select what is best for the product and consumers can select what products they want to get based on how they prioritise these things.

Form how LTT have talked about right to repair they in general mostly seem to view it as cheap upgrades not repairing a product to bring a dead product back to life.