WWDC 2023: What to expect (READ FOR UPDATE)

[actually-light]

37 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I think you missed the point, if you are going to say you can send emails with it don't just show a static image of the inbox, how about get the person to use Mail App and reply to an email?

Are you suggesting that Apple should've spent valuable keynote time showing people how to use a mail app? What?

 

39 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Is actually show it. Ok you have a headset on, what is the input method of choice for writing a Pages document? Physical keyboard? Virtual keyboard? Voice?

 

Stuff running on it isn't the issue , it's never been the issue. Actually using them is this "new" "better" way is. Show them being used.

They did. While they didn't focus on it because it would be a total waste of time, here you can pretty clearly see the VP being used to replace a laptop/desktop workstation, with some fancy AR bullshit to boot.

 

42 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Because it depends on weight and other factors like safety. Are you allowed to drive with it on? No, absolutely not, this does break every country safety laws so you will be taking it off. Also how does it handle being outside? I don't remember that being shown? Future device might be better at that but I'm not convinced Apple has plans for it being used in public areas all that soon.

Obviously you won't be able to drive with an HMD on until the technology is more mature, but why would you not be able to wear it outside? Outside is not somehow magically different from inside. It's probably better lit to boot.

 

44 minutes ago, leadeater said:

That's still on the assumption that long term wearing of this is not a problem. It's also assuming you don't have problems actually using a physical keyboard. I'd like to see a prolonged typing test with one before I'm going to say it's as good as look at without the headset and is problem free or near problem free to not be an issue.

 

I like that you can use a BT keyboard, it vastly increases the versatility of the device but still comes back to the fact it was barely shown as being done.

Why would you have issues using a physical keyboard? One journalist reported that they were able to take notes on their phone, let alone a full-sized keyboard. You can even passthrough a keyboard in the quest pro, and by all accounts that thing kind of sucks compared to the clarity of the VP.

 

45 minutes ago, leadeater said:

That is a very fantastical view of things, quite a lot. If you mean 75% of people who buy computing devices will be buying this then that's not ever going to be true, I'm going to go with you aren't saying this. Vision Pro isn't going to convert Windows users over.

That's absolutely going to be true in the future. There's absolutely no reason why someone would pick an ultrabook over a mature version of this technology.

 

46 minutes ago, leadeater said:

iPhone sales are huge, it's Apple's premier device so your 25% start point relative to the Vision Pro is vastly misplaced. For a good long time Apple laptops are going to greatly outsell the Vision Pro. Since we are however talking future this is still a massive change and the Vision Pro has to actually prove itself past the novelty of it being and different.

No, by all accounts iOS currently makes up roughly 28% of the mobile market at the moment. And of course Apple laptops will outsell the Vision Pro, it's a new technology that's clearly not ready for mainstream adoption. But that's the point of this device; it sets the baseline for what the experience should be like. God knows Meta hasn't managed it.

 

37 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I thought this has gotten way cheaper now. Some stuff get made with it that isn't that expensive. Could be other reasons to be using the metal though, passive cooling for example.

They've stuck in a fan that apparently generates enough airflow that people reported feeling cool air across their face. They didn't complain about fan noise, so presumably it's not going that hard, but it's definitely not relying on passive cooling.

 

41 minutes ago, DerKleine said:

Phones? The small form factor is too big of a deal - can't be replaced.

That's only true until you stop having to take it off every hour or two.

42 minutes ago, DerKleine said:

Tablets? I mostly use my tablet to watch content in bed/while eating/while exercising and do some occasional stylus-using activities. Would I want to use an HMD in bed/while eating or exercising? Not really. In bed, it would restrict the ways I can lie while using the device. While eating, it might get dirty (and isn't going to be nearly as easy to clean as a tablet). While exercising it's inherently going to have significant comfort downsides. Oh, and the headset also can't replace the use case where I use my tablet as a portable kind-of-decent-ish pair of speakers.

People already exercise in headsets. I'm pretty sure that's actually a pretty major use case for the Quest 2. And in what scenario is using a tablet in bed more comfortable than having it strapped to your face? I can't even imagine wanting to hold up a heavy tablet over my face while lying on my back. And how on earth are you getting something strapped in front of your eyes dirty while eating? Do you splatter your eyes and face with debris every time you eat? That sounds supremely uncomfortable. And what do you mean, can't replace speakers? You're strapping them to your head.

 

44 minutes ago, DerKleine said:

Laptops/Desktop PCs? This is where the long-term use comfort concerns mentioned above come into play. And since many tasks will still require a keyboard and probably also a mouse (don't think I'll be 3D modelling or using a game engine with just my hands any time soon), I'd still be tied to a desk even with the headset. And with inherently less processing power in the headset than in a larger non-wearable device, the lack of processing power would have to be compensated for by having demanding applications be streamed to the headset from another device.

It's still the most likely type of device a headset could replace for me, but it's still not the easy win some people are presenting it to be.

I'm pretty sure it can extend Mac displays, so while you'd still be desktop bound, you'd save a lot of desk space that would otherwise be monitors. 

 

45 minutes ago, DerKleine said:

My VR headset? In Apple's infinite wisdom to NOT have optionally supported VR controllers, the Apple Vision Pro ironically can't even replace existing VR headsets. Granted that would be easy to change retroactively, but it's kind of funny to think about. I fully support that basic usage should be done without traditional XR controllers (as they'd add a step to the setup process), but for many VR games, having all those sticks, buttons and haptic feedback is kind of necessary.

Ironically, I feel like other VR headsets are the least important competition. Meta has sold something like 20 million Quest 2's, which are by far the most popular headset on the market. 20 million devices is like, what... the Apple TV? I can understand why Apple wouldn't target that market. They don't need to convince people to buy a Vision instead of a Quest, they need to convince someone who would've otherwise bought a MacBook Air or an iPad Pro.

[hishnash]

10 minutes ago, actually-light said:

Why would you have issues using a physical keyboard? One journalist reported that they were able to take notes on their phone, let alone a full-sized keyboard. You can even passthrough a keyboard in the quest pro, and by all accounts that thing kind of sucks compared to the clarity of the VP.

 

There the latancy is good enough that you will not have issue, other VR/AR headsets have much higher latency so doing any fine fast finger movement like typing is impossible. 

 

14 minutes ago, actually-light said:

And how on earth are you getting something strapped in front of your eyes dirty while eating? Do you splatter your eyes and face with debris every time you eat? That sounds supremely uncomfortable. And what do you mean, can't replace speakers? You're strapping them to your head.

With other AR/VR headsets at the AR projection is not perfect, this means yes you absoulty could end up missing your mouth when eating with it on.  What people who have tested the apple headsets have said is that the AR projection is perfect, you when you put it on and take it off everything distant and near is exactly in the same spot, this is very impassive given the cameras they have are not were your eye balls are so they need to do a lot of computations magic to combine the feed from multiple cameras to retroject it as if its from your eye persecutive.  

[leadeater]

56 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

As far as I’m aware nobody’s cracked mass production of carbon fibre yet for complex shapes

CFRPs can but it's much more expensive than metals and other plastics.

[leadeater]

35 minutes ago, actually-light said:

They did. While they didn't focus on it because it would be a total waste of time, here you can pretty clearly see the VP being used to replace a laptop/desktop workstation, with some fancy AR bullshit to boot.

That's not showing them being used, that is showing the application running and doing nothing with it. I don't think you are grasping the point.

 

35 minutes ago, actually-light said:

Are you suggesting that Apple should've spent valuable keynote time showing people how to use a mail app? What?

 

Yes I am because using it with the Vision Pro is not the same as any other device so actually show it being used the way they think or intend it to be used so I can see they aren't full of hot air and it's actually practical to do so. Show don't tell.

 

If they show it being used with eye tracking and voice to text only then immediately I know it's going to be horrible and full of errors. If they show it with eye tracking and a virtual keyboard then I'll need to see that virtual keyboard being used, finger gesture or eyes? If they show it with eye tracking and a BT keyboard then show me someone typing on the keyboard while changing between eye or hand gesture with the app.

 

These usability things aren't as much of a given as you think, I know 100% Apple has done all the research and user testing of this. I want to see it. Details matter.

[DerKleine]

36 minutes ago, actually-light said:

That's only true until you stop having to take it off every hour or two.

Which is both not going to happen any time soon (for numerous reasons) and wearing such a headset in everyday life isn't going to become socially acceptable any time soon.

 

For that to happen you'd not just have to be able to wear the headset all the time (again: pretty big issue), but actually be prepared to do so, because putting an HMD away while on the go isn't going to be as easy as putting your phone into your pocket.

 

36 minutes ago, actually-light said:

People already exercise in headsets. I'm pretty sure that's actually a pretty major use case for the Quest 2.

Yes, I have also played a bunch of Beatsaber on my Rift S. Doesn't change the facts that...

• not all exercises are equally suitable to be performed while wearing a headset.
• The reason why some exercise is done with headsets already isn't because of the headset, it's because of the experience and despite the headset. The headset subtracts from the experience, the application being played has to make that up. Placing a tablet next to me somewhere doesn't really detract from anything, so a lot more content becomes "good enough" to be engaged with while exercising.
• Exercising with the headset will increase the need for maintenance of the headset (cleaning), and make it less desirable to use shortly after exercising. Not so much an issue with existing VR headsets that you'd stop using once you're done playing, but would be more of an issue with the AVP.

So no, "there are exercises that exist that people do with their HMDs" does not imply "all exercise is great with an HMD".

36 minutes ago, actually-light said:

And in what scenario is using a tablet in bed more comfortable than having it strapped to your face? I can't even imagine wanting to hold up a heavy tablet over my face while lying on my back.

Wow, you found the one out of 3 (4?) orientations in which the headset kind of makes more sense. Too bad I often don't want to lie on my back, and having 500g pressing down on my face when I want to lie down doesn't sound all that enticing. Also, even when you're lying on your back, there's still a head strap going around the back of your head. It might not be as much of an issue with the APV since it's just fabric at the back, but it's still something.

36 minutes ago, actually-light said:

And how on earth are you getting something strapped in front of your eyes dirty while eating? Do you splatter your eyes and face with debris every time you eat? That sounds supremely uncomfortable.

You're going to be shovelling food millimetres below the headset and have a chance of bonking whatever beverage container you're drinking from into the bottom of it, so yeah, I think I'd rather deal with occasionally having to touch a touchscreen with the knuckle of an otherwise greasy finger.

36 minutes ago, actually-light said:

And what do you mean, can't replace speakers? You're strapping them to your head.

Another case of ignoring that other people might exist and wearing stuff might not always be the most comfortable.

36 minutes ago, actually-light said:

I'm pretty sure it can extend Mac displays, so while you'd still be desktop bound, you'd save a lot of desk space that would otherwise be monitors. 

That still means you'll have to constantly go through the setup process of starting your external computing device and connecting it to the headset. And with monitor arms, the amount of desk space actually removed by a display doesn't even have to be that high.

36 minutes ago, actually-light said:

Ironically, I feel like other VR headsets are the least important competition. Meta has sold something like 20 million Quest 2's, which are by far the most popular headset on the market. 20 million devices is like, what... the Apple TV? I can understand why Apple wouldn't target that market. They don't need to convince people to buy a Vision instead of a Quest, they need to convince someone who would've otherwise bought a MacBook Air or an iPad Pro.

That example was given more as a joke, but also to demonstrate that such an easy and logical value add was ignored because... ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
XR controllers could still be useful for several professional applications as well, and having a standardized one would probably be beneficial for developers.

[Paul Thexton]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

These usability things aren't as much of a given as you think, I know 100% Apple has done all the research and user testing of this. I want to see it. Details matter.

If you want to try out Voice Control and see how it would work and you have a Mac available nearby you can always test it?

 

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT210539

 

I expect that Voice Control for Vision Pro will be built off the same tech that's built in to macOS and presumably iOS as well (haven't looked to see if it exists in iOS)

 

Note: I didn't even know that was a feature in macOS until a few days ago (I knew you could do speech-to-text, I didn't know you could drive the UI with voice), so I haven't tried it myself yet.  I actually do intend to though because while I've tested the product I work on works well with macOS VoiceOver feature, I've not personally tested how easy our product is to interact with using Voice Control.

[leadeater]

3 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

If you want to try out Voice Control and see how it would work and you have a Mac available nearby you can always test it?

 

Well like I was alluding to I don't need to test the voice part of it, it's bad heh. Constant errors would just get too annoying.

[leadeater]

31 minutes ago, DerKleine said:

For that to happen you'd not just have to be able to wear the headset all the time (again: pretty big issue), but actually be prepared to do so, because putting an HMD away while on the go isn't going to be as easy as putting your phone into your pocket.

And for the next 5 years, if not more, there is a high chance someone will rip it off your head and destroy it. "You" might be ok with them out in public, the "public" on the other hand may not be.

[Paul Thexton]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Well like I was alluding to I don't need to test the voice part of it, it's bad heh. Constant errors would just get too annoying.

Interesting. Like I say I've never tried it myself but I do intend to ... thanks for the heads up and let me set my expectation levels accordingly I'm kind of surprised that it's bad though, Apple generally do a good job for accessibility features. 

[leadeater]

17 minutes ago, Paul Thexton said:

Interesting. Like I say I've never tried it myself but I do intend to ... thanks for the heads up and let me set my expectation levels accordingly I'm kind of surprised that it's bad though, Apple generally do a good job for accessibility features. 

Voice is just really hard, no one has got it perfect yet. Simple commands are one thing and even the error rate on that can  get tiresome but is anyone really going to be willing to put up with that on an actual longer form email reply? Making corrections every time will get annoying real fast. 

 

 

 

Edit:

Should note it's not as bad as I'm making out but it's not error free enough for it to not get annoying to really be suitable method for longer email replies and document editing. Not that I think that is Apple's intention for such usage.

[Paul Thexton]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

 

One of my favourite ever comedy sketches that one

 

Along with this all time classic from when Microsoft added speech-to-text in Vista.

 

 

[Obioban]

Somehow I missed until now that there is going to be a VisionOS version of Final Cut Pro at launch. I'm interested to see what Apple thinks a Vision OS specific pro app looks like.

[HenrySalayne]

12 hours ago, actually-light said:

Are you suggesting that Apple should've spent valuable keynote time showing people how to use a mail app? What?

What a crazy idea to show someone actually using the device instead of - here it comes - people sitting on a couch doing literally nothing. 

 

This is definitely a strong contender among @saltycaramel's posts for "worst take of 2023".

[HenrySalayne]

5 hours ago, Obioban said:

Somehow I missed until now that there is going to be a VisionOS version of Final Cut Pro at launch. I'm interested to see what Apple thinks a Vision OS specific pro app looks like.

I don't want to spoil the surprise, but we have some strong evidence that it will look just like Final Cut Pro on a virtual screen floating somewhere in the room.

You will probably want to use mouse and keyboard as input device.

[saltycaramel]

8 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

What a crazy idea to show someone actually using the device instead of - here it comes - people sitting on a couch doing literally nothing. 

 

This is definitely a strong contender among @saltycaramel's posts for "worst take of 2023".

 

The worst take of 2023 is you not understanding the comfy lady on the couch is the single most important image for the first contact of the public with this new device, just like Steve Jobs introducing the first iPad sitting in a comfy armchair. Making personal computing more personal, intimate, part of one's daily life, not intimidating. That's the implied message.

[saltycaramel]

7 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

I don't want to spoil the surprise, but we have some strong evidence that it will look just like Final Cut Pro on a virtual screen floating somewhere in the room.

You will probably want to use mouse and keyboard as input device.

 

Except Final Cut Pro for iPad already exists, doesn't necessarily require kb&m and is not a mere 1:1 lookalike of Final Cut Pro for macOS.

 

https://www.xda-developers.com/final-cut-pro-for-ipad-review/

 

That's the more likely base for the visionOS version.

[hishnash]

23 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

That's the more likely base for the visionOS version.

For sure the visionsOS version will be based on this, The main difference will be the hand gestures that let you use the jog wheel and the option to pull out large preview windows.  

[IkeaGnome]

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

 

The worst take of 2023 is you not understanding the comfy lady on the couch is the single most important image for the first contact of the public with this new device, just like Steve Jobs introducing the first iPad sitting in a comfy armchair. Making personal computing more personal, intimate, part of one's daily life, not intimidating. That's the implied message.

Do we need to point out that they showed Steve actually using the iPad, scrolling through apps and interacting with them? Not just a screen that very well could have been CGI and no where near what it'll launch as with no interaction?

 

Edit: Kept watching, here's him using the keyboard. Not just the keyboard sitting there implied it'll be used at some point.

Spoiler

 

[WolframaticAlpha]

15 hours ago, actually-light said:

That's absolutely going to be true in the future. There's absolutely no reason why someone would pick an ultrabook over a mature version of this technology.

Why the fuck would I want to put on a fucking ski mask and stop seeing other people and use my computer when I can not wear a stupid ski mask and see other people? And maybe I want to sometimes show a fucking powerpoint presentation to or watch a video with other people? And what about being able to stuff a thin notebook in my bag versus and oddly shaped display.

 

And don't come up with a fantastical vision of a mature product, which is as thin as my spectacle and has the power of two supercomputers, because if so, take a futuristic laptop as well, which has a rollable screen and can fit in my product smfh.

 

[Donut417]

2 hours ago, WolframaticAlpha said:

And what about being able to stuff a thin notebook in my bag versus and oddly shaped display.

Thats not even the best part. A current gen MacBook Air gets all day battery life, Apple claims 18 hours. This headset gets what 2 hours? This is a device that would only be used in the comfort of ones home. Plus the MacBook Air, or even a Pro is going to be cheaper and probably more usefully. 

 

 

[leadeater]

5 hours ago, hishnash said:

For sure the visionsOS version will be based on this, The main difference will be the hand gestures that let you use the jog wheel and the option to pull out large preview windows.  

I don't know if first version of the App for Vision will but I suspect it will allow pulling many UI elements out to their own windows that can be arranged. What you can do with a headset display versus a monitor display for this kind of application can be very different, what I don't now is if you want to and it would be that user friendly depending on what you pull out. Like having the timeline too far out of view could be a problem if you do that etc

[hishnash]

4 hours ago, IkeaGnome said:

Do we need to point out that they showed Steve actually using the iPad, scrolling through apps and interacting with them? Not just a screen that very well could have been CGI and no where near what it'll launch as with no interaction?

This was the release video targeted at consumers who were buying the device. Not developers making apps for the device. 

Appel will have a user focused event when they are ready to ship that will be 1 to 2 hours full of showing of the device in use in a range of thier apps the third party apps that they want to show off differnt use cases. 
 

The WWDC preview of the device is all about showing the generic capabilities of the HW and SW platform so devs can think about what they are going to build there not about how mail works or any other individual apple app.  The video was all about showing differnt stations and form factors for apps to inspired us devs to think about how our IP would best be presented to uses in the headset. 

Showing that there is a keyboard on a table and saying in the state of the union that it support BT keyboard and mice is all we need as developers to say "cool so its ok if we build an app that needs heavy text entry users can use a keyboard sweet.."  we do not need to see someone using a keyboard since it turns out us devs we tend to know what using a keyboard is like! yer who would have thought someone who just writes text into a plain text might understand that when you press a key it appears in a TextField or TextEdtor and updates the corresponding binding to the provided string ... 

[hishnash]

2 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Like having the timeline too far out of view could be a problem if you do that etc

Yer I could see detaching the timeline and placing it below at an angel almost flat on the table to be nice an powerful I believe windows don not need to be vertical. 

[leadeater]

9 minutes ago, hishnash said:

This was the release video targeted at consumers who were buying the device. Not developers making apps for the device. 

Appel will have a user focused event when they are ready to ship that will be 1 to 2 hours full of showing of the device in use in a range of thier apps the third party apps that they want to show off differnt use cases. 
 

The WWDC preview of the device is all about showing the generic capabilities of the HW and SW platform so devs can think about what they are going to build there not about how mail works or any other individual apple app.  The video was all about showing differnt stations and form factors for apps to inspired us devs to think about how our IP would best be presented to uses in the headset. 

Well the problem here is if it's supposed to be a consumer device why was it announced in this way at this conference unlike other headline new Apple products?

 

Was the iPhone first announced at WWDC? Was the iPad? Was the Apple Watch? etc etc

 

First introductions count. i.e. Why is the Vision Pro second class citizen to all the products before it?

 

Basically WWDC doesn't have to be first, the order doesn't have to be in this way. You can announce the product at an Apple Special Event and then do the developer stuff at WWDC after. And if, IF, this is "Just a Mac on your head, all the Apps you know and love just work" then there is literally zero reason to do it this way, since you have so many things that would already work to show off.

[IkeaGnome]

1 hour ago, hishnash said:

This was the release video targeted at consumers who were buying the device. Not developers making apps for the device. 

Appel will have a user focused event when they are ready to ship that will be 1 to 2 hours full of showing of the device in use in a range of thier apps the third party apps that they want to show off differnt use cases. 
 

The WWDC preview of the device is all about showing the generic capabilities of the HW and SW platform so devs can think about what they are going to build there not about how mail works or any other individual apple app.  The video was all about showing differnt stations and form factors for apps to inspired us devs to think about how our IP would best be presented to uses in the headset. 

Showing that there is a keyboard on a table and saying in the state of the union that it support BT keyboard and mice is all we need as developers to say "cool so its ok if we build an app that needs heavy text entry users can use a keyboard sweet.."  we do not need to see someone using a keyboard since it turns out us devs we tend to know what using a keyboard is like! yer who would have thought someone who just writes text into a plain text might understand that when you press a key it appears in a TextField or TextEdtor and updates the corresponding binding to the provided string ... 

Seems you responded to me and moved the goal posts without reading the context of what exactly I responded to. 

Try again. 

Steve Jobs was in a comfy arm chair. Lady was in a comfy arm chair.  Lady didn’t interact with Vision anywhere near how Steve Jobs did. Lady for one, didn’t type or interact with any of the screens. Steve Jobs did. 

7 hours ago, saltycaramel said:

not understanding the comfy lady on the couch is the single most important image for the first contact of the public with this new device, just like Steve Jobs introducing the first iPad sitting in a comfy armchair.