Tesla releases software update to prevent Car windows from jamming their customers' fingers

[wanderingfool2]

31 minutes ago, leadeater said:

$15,000 / 14 = 1071 months, or $5,000 / 14 = 357. You are aware just how dead, no longer in the house etc you would be with that sort of time frame correct? If we are talking about only the net benefit portion of putting in a larger system than you really need to bank kwh credits to use later, increasing the cost effectiveness of the system, the actual in reality effect is not good.

 

In summer my 2kw system produces maximum up to ~450kwh so even if the size were double getting a net effective benefit in 100kwh or in 100's in basically impossible. My per month consumption is ~900+ kwh fyi.

Are you referring to 450 kWh per month, or during the entire summer? [like 150 kWh a month].

 

A 2kW system here would be about $5000, so even assuming 100 kWh per month, that's still a savings of $14 for installing it (even if your usage is mostly night when you are home).  So even assuming that it's 30 years...if a 2kW system can produce 150 kWh, that's only 20 years.

 

Ultimately I am only bringing it up because you were giving advice that someone should only size their system based on their daytime usage when they aren't home.  In places where there is net metering that advice is not correct, the correct way to approach is to take the usage you have in the meter period (not the daytime unattended usage)

 

45 minutes ago, leadeater said:

You do realize a lot, like most, places not the US have regulated electricity prices. Surge prices is not a thing here. It does exist on the wholesale supply market that retailers use but they cannot pass the cost on to the consumers, power could be 4000 times more expensive for 1 hour of the day, they wear it not us.

What I mean by surge pricing is the back-end.  Customers only face a constant $/kWh bill, but the power companies if they aren't able to meet demand have to purchase power from somewhere, so they effectively have to pay surge pricing.  That's why during those kinds of events you are able to get a really high $/kWh to feed back into the grid...because for them it means they have to start more plants to meet the demand (which costs a crazy amount)

[Kisai]

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

 

I very much support residential PV solar and think every house should have it however I'm also well aware that many installers push for sales and don't do a good enough job at giving advice. I don't think they have malice in general but they simply aren't realistic about the issues of time frames that go over, often well over, 10 years. Residential suppliers should be legally entitled to per hour wholesale market rate like everyone else too.

At least in Canada, solar is very unlikely to pay for itself if you try to oversize it. Maybe not the case in the desert areas like Southern California, Nevada and Arizona. Considering that PV Solar has a short relative lifespan, oversizing it is just throwing money away unless you could reasonably use the entire installed capacity.

 

Like let's say in another life I didn't move from the place I grew up in, inherited the grandparents house, and installed solar panels on it. 

1) Wouldn't be particularly great because the roof isn't south facing (most houses have south-facing windows, so the roofs face north instead) and

2) the valley is steep enough to not have a the same dawn-to-dusk daylight cycle as Vancouver. Literately, if your house isn't overlooking the river, either you end up in the rainshadow of the valley on the west side, and have an early sunset, or your house is on the east side of the valley and have a late sunrise.

3) Snow. Unless you're heating the panels, the solar panels will pretty much be unusable in the winter.

 

Australia, I assume don't have the snow problem, and it's more likely that the majority of Australia would be suitable for PV Solar. New Zealand I'd expect to be similar to BC in Canada or Japan, where it just depends if you're at the coast or not.

 

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Are you referring to 450 kWh per month, or during the entire summer? [like 150 kWh a month].

Per month. 350-450 per month for about 3-4 months of the year, then down to as little as 150 kwh in winter.

 

Below is my 2021 year breakdown:

 

Absolute best case 100% utilization of solar would be just over 1/3 reduction of my power bill over the year. As you can see my export is very low, due to having a battery system so at least I'm good in this aspect but there is still 872 kwh I'm only getting $0.08/kwh where Net Metering would turn that in to the $0.259/kwh effective or $226 over the year.

 

So as you can see the gain you speak of may not be that great, $2260 over 10 years. Even without my battery it would struggle to be $5000 so if you spent $10000 instead of $5000 you needlessly spent $5000 to get the exact same return length and be stuck with higher cost and ultimately older panels. Doesn't sound smart to me. Simply spend the $5000 after 10 years, get a larger effective systems, new panels, and the ability to not be tied to your house if you didn't want to spend the $5000.

 

Above all in NZD so $5000 is not 2kw size, only 1kw. However still valid comparison since it would be 2kw system vs 3kw system and then math etc.

 

2 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

A 2kW system here would be about $5000

Correct or $10,000 in my local currency. Global pricing is actually very similar.

 

2 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

so even assuming 100 kWh per month, that's still a savings of $14 for installing it (even if your usage is mostly night when you are home).  So even assuming that it's 30 years...if a 2kW system can produce 150 kWh, that's only 20 years

I don't think you understood the point well enough. Without Net Metering you still save money, without getting any export rebate you still save money. It's all just a factor of how much.

 

My point is that it's a bad idea to put in a large system just because of Net Metering or export rebate to somehow increase your monthly savings or pay back rate. It's simply financially better to spend less.

 

Don't go with a 5kw system if a 2kw system is suitable, focus on return on investment and getting that short, then if you wish to expand later do so after the period you have got that return. By then technology has improved anyway.

 

The main benefit I see from Net Metering is that it's a functional replacement for a battery system, that's all. Not to down play that because that's a huge thing, battery systems of a decent size are wildly expensive! This is where I see the benefit, not an incentive to put in larger systems because of it.

 

  

2 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Ultimately I am only bringing it up because you were giving advice that someone should only size their system based on their daytime usage when they aren't home.  In places where there is net metering that advice is not correct, the correct way to approach is to take the usage you have in the meter period (not the daytime unattended usage)

Well I disagree and stand by what I said with Net Metering in place. Return period, years, is much better focus.

 

Anyway I think we are suitably well off topic now 

[Godlygamer23]

On 9/27/2022 at 1:54 AM, RedRound2 said:

2019 isn't today is it? Its like taking some news from 1800s and saying we should not really adopt electricity and stick with wood and lanterns for light because powergrids dont really exist. Extreme example, but you get the point

It is very extreme. Unnecessarily so. Going from 2022 to the 1800s is very different, and while the 1800s can teach us information(like reaffirm that something was a problem even then)..to literally rely on news two centuries old to prove power grids don't exist is on a COMPLETELY different level than comparing news from 2019 and 2022.

[Isuck Assimov]

14 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

in regards to recall...they have less than other manufacturers.

Your funeral.

Also Tesla doesnt even get close to producing the amount of cars that other businesses do. Them still having that many recalls is a big red flag.
EV are the future but Tesla is a medieval company. If they get lucky and Musk suddenly dies the company might have a future. With him it's gonna get run into the ground in no time.

[wanderingfool2]

21 minutes ago, Assimov said:

Your funeral.

Also Tesla doesnt even get close to producing the amount of cars that other businesses do. Them still having that many recalls is a big red flag.
EV are the future but Tesla is a medieval company. If they get lucky and Musk suddenly dies the company might have a future. With him it's gonna get run into the ground in no time.

lol, that is the most asinine type of reasoning.  You are clearly sticking your head in the sand.

 

"run into ground"...looks at the balance sheet since he took on CEO, and the valuation of the company.  Literally under his watch it turned from a company that was starting production with no profits, to making profits as much GM is currently making.

 

"medieval company"...sure, ignore the fact that legacy auto has been using outdated chips, lacks infotainment updates.  Also lets ignore the fact that things like FSD Beta is light years ahead of what any other competitor is doing....you know the features that is allowing it to be one of the least crashed vehicles per 100,000 mile driven.  Or if you want to say medieval, look at the teardowns by Munro and Associates (who literally praise Tesla for the innovations they are doing)

 

"that many recalls is a big red flag"...are you trying to ignore the fact that other manufacturers have recalls?  Ignore the fact that things like the Bolt was recalled 3 TIMES FOR THE SAME ISSUE.  The 3rd time they actually had to replace the battery on every single bolt.  Ignore that legacy auto has a history of not issues recalls, instead paying out settlements because they know paying out is cheaper than recalling/fixing the issue.

 

Again, at least from that article I posted earler it shows that Tesla has had less recalls compared to competitors.  Even if you base it by models, that still puts Tesla at the same position as others.  So if you want to call me a fanboy, then actually show data proves your point that Tesla's experience more recalls.  I've already posted articles that show says since 2020 Tesla had 19 recalls (7 were OTA, and at least two were pretty petty things...like the boom-box feature not being allowed, or the "rolling stop" which emulated human driving) GM had 77 recalls during that period.

 

Do you know what's a red flag, an established company that has been mostly recycling their product design for decades having large amounts of recalls.  What is a red flag is things like the GM ignition switch scandal, where they hid the problem so they didn't have to recall and they didn't have to spend extra money on it.

 

A company that is effectively in it's infancy (and yes, Tesla is still in it's infancy of building vehicles), is more likely to make mistakes as they learn....but sure try treating Tesla as if they are some terrible company that produces death traps, and ignore that it's rated as one of top safety rated vehicles.

[Isuck Assimov]

1 hour ago, wanderingfool2 said:

I've already posted articles that show says since 2020 Tesla had 19 recalls (7 were OTA, and at least two were pretty petty things...like the boom-box feature not being allowed, or the "rolling stop" which emulated human driving) GM had 77 recalls during that period.

In 2020 GM produced more than 7 times the amount of cars, compared to Tesla while the recalls are around 4 times higher.

It's Apple levels of paying for prestige while the quality is below average. I'd drive a hyundai or toyota ev over a tesla any day.

 

Quote

""medieval company"...sure, ignore the fact that legacy auto has been using outdated chips, lacks infotainment updates."

you forgot the recall to factory they had to do bc they used the lowest cost flash memory that fried in no time and made the infotainment and most car functions unusable, didnt you ?

[mr moose]

17 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

 

Not sure about older panels, but the newer panels actually have warranties for 25 years (where it is guaranteed to have 80% capacity after 25 years, 90% capacity after 10 years).  So unfortunately it sounds like you might have a buggy panel (or it was just the tech at the time).  If a lot of them are in series, without microinverters (which it sounds like it's not) a single panel not producing can bring down the efficiency of the entire set of panels hooked up to it.

 

 

 

They are older, but in the scheme of things I don't know how old.  The stupid thing is I usually get all involved in detailing this sort of thing for my own home, however at the time I just couldn't be arsed and was too busy so I just paid a large company to screw me from behind while I happily went to work ignorant that it would all come apart in a few years.

 

More fool me, i I'll be adding solar and battery sales people to my list of trades I will never trust.

 

 

 

 

[RedRound2]

On 9/27/2022 at 7:49 PM, An0maly_76 said:

Trolling? Says the person who just hurled a slew of prejudicial remarks with absolutely no basis for them.

Seriously, after I sent replies with links, resources and videos. Sure buddy

 

Prejudicial - yes, exactly the definition after you went about blaming the world's oil problem to the current US administration - when it would've literally made almost no difference and would've had a significant environmental impact

On 9/27/2022 at 7:49 PM, An0maly_76 said:

Do some research on the different types of solar panels and how they respond to partial shading, as well as their proneness to environmental compromise. Bird doo, leaves, pollen, all manner of stuff can accumulate on them, diminishing or outright killing output, and it doesn't take a lot to do it, either. Can't see through a dirty window, and a dirty solar panel doesn't do much either.

I don't need to do research because I ALREADY have them at my house. Bird poop is not even a thing on solar panels unless there's a tree on top of the panel - which would defeat the entire purpose of it.

 

All your other stupid complaints are pretty can be solved by hosing it down once a while or you know when a phenomenon called 'rain' happens. I went to clean my panels maybe twice this year and it was mostly because I wanted to and not because I had to

On 9/27/2022 at 7:49 PM, An0maly_76 said:

Fight with yourself if you like, I'm done with you.

I find people who can't admit to their mistakes or inflammatory remarks cowards. But that's just me. Don't manufacture facts and don't be blind to things that don't fit your narrative. It's your own significant reply here that things started going completely downhill with you

[Jito463]

41 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Prejudicial - yes, exactly the definition after you went about blaming the world's oil problem to the current US administration - when it would've literally made almost no difference and would've had a significant environmental impact

Considering that a couple of years ago we were not only producing enough oil for us, but even exporting to the rest of the world; I'd argue that the sitting Former Vice President Biden has at least some culpability in the matter.

[wanderingfool2]

9 hours ago, Assimov said:

you forgot the recall to factory they had to do bc they used the lowest cost flash memory that fried in no time and made the infotainment and most car functions unusable, didnt you ?

If you read what I said in my posts, I said the MCU was one of the things that was an issue, along panel gaps.

 

They didn't use the lowest cost flash memory, it had the standard write cycles (care to prove me wrong, point to one reputable source that says it...not a journalist saying it but someone in the industry who actually says it).  They were storing close to 8GB on it, so as a result the NAND flash got a lot of write cycles to it resulting in the failure.  eMMC gets a bad wrap because a lot of the time they do use terrible quality chips in products that use it (such as cheap laptops).  Realistically though, you can have eMMC that uses the same quality of NAND as SSD storage...the big difference is that it's effectively a dumb storage...all IO is handled by a separate component.  Of course journalists who wrote about it didn't ask the experts if it was "cheap" flash, instead they google eMMC and find that it's often used in cheap components.  You take any super high quality flash chip, fill the entire space with OS stuff and you will experience the same issue as this.

 

iirc, hard to find at the moment since it would be a 10 year old statement now, the MCU1 design was commissioned by a 3rd party (the newer version being more in-house design)...it's similar to autopilot, autopilot was actually not built in-house until later on.  You can tell they had left room for improvement because on their newer MCU2 they bumped it to 64 GB which allows for consistent wear leveling.  (Even the people who were performing fixes were only bumping it to 16 GB because they thought it would be enough prevent the issue)

 

9 hours ago, Assimov said:

In 2020 GM produced more than 7 times the amount of cars, compared to Tesla while the recalls are around 4 times higher.

Again, it's an asinine comment to compare the total # of vehicles to recalls.  To put it extreme, company A sells one model and company B sells one model.  Company A sells a million, and company b sells 1,000.  If Company A has to issue 5 recalls, that doesn't mean it's better than company B which only has 1 recall.

 

A part designed wrong is still a part designed wrong, whether you sell 1 or sell 1000 of them.

 

Tesla actively produces 4 models, GM actively produces 17 models (when you factor in the vehicles with the same components just a different frame)...which puts them at 4.25x, and Tesla's recall at 4.1x.  So within margin of error; except that you have to now bring your vehicle into the dealership 3x more often with GM.  Which brings me back to what I said, Tesla is no different from other manufacturers in regards to having to deal with recalls; what is different is the amount of flexibility they left themselves in terms of being able to fix things remotely.

 

I'll state this again, legacy auto has had a history of trying to avoid recalls (at the sacrifice of human lives).  GM literally sat on the fact that their ignition switch was faulty (where it killed people) for a decade.  They literally didn't fix the issue over it costing 57 cents a vehicle (and to some extent the concept that once it was fixed, if they let the cars age the total # of vehicles would decrease as vehicles are scrapped/totaled)

 

Also again, with OTA "recalls", you need to take them with a grain of salt (or look at what the OTA was recalling).

e.g. "Recall due to pedestrian safety sound".  Reason for the recall, because people can't hear the vehicle as it is driving slowly because the boombox feature is capable of making more noise than the slow speed noise...which is a really stupid recall (because literally it's a sound playing to alert you of a vehicle, since it doesn't have an engine...and the complaint is that the vehicle has a feature that is making a noise louder.)

 

"Speed not displayed" - While in track mode (so not used on streets), it displays the speed...but the recall is actually because it doesn't list "km or miles" next to the speed...which is again a ticky-tacky thing (as it's literally displaying the speed still, and in the units that you have it set to).

 

"Rolling stop" - FSD Beta to match a human driver would roll a stop sign.  Of course this is strictly against the rules so it had to be recalled, but it's a bit ticky-tacky in that humans do it all the time, and now doing a full stop can disrupt the flow of traffic.

 

"Seat belt chime" - To trigger it, you have to have the seatbelt chime occurring, interrupt it using the door, and then it won't chime next time (it will however still chime when you start driving).  While it's still a safety recall, it is overall a very minor one...since you literally have to have the vehicle running, take off your seatbelt, open the door while the chime is playing, and then neglect to put on your seat belt the next time, even then when you start driving it chimes

 

Those make up 4 of the OTA "recalls", but I'd hardly consider them as something noteworthy [the biggest one that could be argued is the Rolling stop, but I do view it as a necessity for self driving eventually to act as humans do, as long as it's safe] (yet on each of those cases there were headlines claiming Tesla's as unsafe, and yet another massive recall affecting millions of cars).

 

Let's do a bit of comparison though

Tesla Model Y 2022: 7 recalls [NHTSA classifies there being 8 recalls...but they double count the boom-box recall]

Bolt 2022: 2 recalls

 

Of those 7 though, only 3 of them are noteworthy as potential safety issues.  [The 4 that I excluded are the ones I listed above, classified as safety issues but realistically not something that causes any harm to anyone.  If you want to argue whether you think they are truly a safety thing, then go for it...but I don't think it really is an issue given how minor/hard to trigger/trivial in nature it is...actually the boom box feature I think justifies at how wrong the recall system really is]

 

So let's compare those 3 noteworthy ones with Bolt's.

Tesla Y 2022:

Windshield defrost (-10C, the valve can freeze open causing a loss in performance...still works but you lose it's full efficacy of it).  Still an issue, software fix that allowed it to bypass the stuck valve.

Center display malfunction - CPU overheated when fast charging/preparing for fast charging.  Still a safety thing as a laggy display isn't great, but the majority of the time it would be occurring during fast-charging.  OTA fixed the issue (I'm assuming they just throttle to prevent it hitting that temp).

Power windshield - The one talked about in this thread.  No it isn't like you originally implied where you take it into the shop.  They literally just tweaked the sensitivity (no one even noticed this, it took Tesla self reporting that they found an issue...but that was after doing like weeks of analysis to see if it was out of spec)...which to me tells me that it was likely very borderline out of spec on some vehicles.

 

Compared to Bolt 2022:

Battery Fire - They attempted a software fix, it failed.  Entire fleet has to be brought into the shop, which has been slow...and until then you are recommended not to park next to any vehicles or inside your garage (seriously, that was their issuing warning).  As an fyi, of the bolts that caught fire...it's about a 1 in 5,500 chance yours catches fire based on the fires determined to be linked to this recall.

Airbag failure to deploy - Some of them were installed wrong, need to see dealer to check if it's installed correctly.

 

9 hours ago, Assimov said:

It's Apple levels of paying for prestige while the quality is below average. I'd drive a hyundai or toyota ev over a tesla any day.

You have to factor out battery costs if you are going to compare; or at least compare EV's amongst each other...but then again it's not a fair comparison because you can compare it to the Mach-E (which currently is under a recall that they don't have a physical fix for with the battery), but the Mach-E is literally losing money on each vehicle at the moment.

 

The Ioniq is the only vehicle out there at the moment that is a proper comparison to Tesla; and to that I give them props, but as most legacy auto is learning making EV's and making a profit off of them is not an easy task.  The only reason why Tesla has managed to cut their costs down in production of the vehicles is because they have truly innovated in the industry.  The giga-casting of the front and rear body is remarkable, and a major reason why they were able to ramp and make the revenue they need.  [The castings eliminate 370 parts, which is where they are now making their margins].

 

Tesla you very much are paying for the technology and innovation within the vehicle (i.e. things such as the efficiency).  Until the Ionic came out, there wasn't even any competitions really for distance per kwh

 

Also "Toyota EV"...sure trust the company that is bringing out the first BEV in 2023, and has gone towards Hydrogen instead of BEV.

 

No arguing about Hyundai, as I've mentioned in previous ones Ioniq is realistically the only one that competes with Tesla.

 

  

2 hours ago, Jito463 said:

Considering that a couple of years ago we were not only producing enough oil for us, but even exporting to the rest of the world; I'd argue that the sitting Former Vice President Biden has at least some culpability in the matter.

I don't really wish to get into any politics.  I will point out that US crude oil production slowed at the beginning of covid.  Realistically the current issue with oil has been caused by the pandemic situation we have, with OPEC reducing the oil production
https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRFPUS2&f=M
 

[BuckGup]

On 9/25/2022 at 4:03 AM, Arika S said:

Who closes a window with their fingers in it?

 

Are people stupid?

Typically it happens to another occupant who didn't know the fingers where there. I've had my fingers shut in windows twice because the driver didn't know my body parts were hanging out the window

[Jito463]

5 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

I don't really wish to get into any politics.  I will point out that US crude oil production slowed at the beginning of covid.  Realistically the current issue with oil has been caused by the pandemic situation we have, with OPEC reducing the oil production
https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/hist/LeafHandler.ashx?n=PET&s=MCRFPUS2&f=M

It's not about politics, it's about policy.  It is a fact that Biden:

 

A) Killed the Keystone XL pipeline deal on day one

B) Canceled all future leases to drill for oil on federally owned land, again on day one

 

Those two factors played a significant role in the decline of oil production in the US, which in turn had an impact on the global economy.  I'm not saying this merely to rail against the current administration (there's so many other ways I could do that), but I was directly responding to a statement that a major cause of inflation is the tight control on oil supply.  I was showing how one of the issues with the oil supply is our current administration, who intentionally put roadblocks in the way of oil production and distribution.  His administration may not be solely responsible for the global situation, but they do carry at least a part of the blame in the matter.

On 9/26/2022 at 11:25 PM, RedRound2 said:

Third, do you know macroeconomics? Do you know one of the major reasons of inflation today is the tight control in oil supply? It's not like we don't have enough oil, but rather after sanctions on Russia, oil producing countries just decided to take advantage of the situation and increase prices instead of increasing production. So, it's literally in your best interest to move away from petroleum and go for energy sources that can be produced locally. And that is entirely possible today, but many governments today are seriously run by brain dead people and paid in millions by groups to basically prevent that.

 

[wanderingfool2]

2 hours ago, Jito463 said:

Those two factors played a significant role in the decline of oil production in the US, which in turn had an impact on the global economy

Please look at the link I provided, from the Energy Information Administration (from the US).  The decline in oil production (and oil production around the world as well) occurred during the pandemic. It literally started trending downward Mar 2020, and since March 2021 the numbers have been higher than in 2020.

 

It brings me back to my point, the energy sector itself was hit heavily during the pandemic, which is a reason why the price has increased.

[Isuck Assimov]

12 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

The only reason why Tesla has managed to cut their costs down in production of the vehicles is because they have truly innovated in the industry.

Ye, being the only big american car manufacturer without a union and paying substantially less to your employees is innovation i guess. Maybe they'll switch from paying money to paying scrip or stock or using the american slavery system, those would be innovations on the same level.

[mr moose]

7 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

 

 

It brings me back to my point, the energy sector itself was hit heavily during the pandemic, which is a reason why the price has increased.

It is true that production was scaled back during the pandemic,  but what has stopped it form being scaled back up again?   Nothing except the pipeline and drilling policy.  So the question becomes how much effect did those things have and if it wasn't much then why hasn't production been scaled back up again? 

[Jito463]

11 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

It literally started trending downward Mar 2020, and since March 2021 the numbers have been higher than in 2020.

True, but it's only natural for it to go back up after the lockdowns ended (we can leave the discussion about that stupidity for another day).  However, it's not even close to being back to what it was at its peak in 2019/2020.

 

The Keystone pipeline would have made it cheaper, faster and easier to distribute oil.  I don't know how one could argue otherwise.  Regarding the leases, it's only natural that the oil producers would hold off on drilling when they're told that no more leases will be coming for the foreseeable future.

 

It seems to me like you're claiming those two decisions had little to no impact.  Care to clarify what point you're trying to make?

Edited September 30, 2022 by Jito463
Minor addition

[wanderingfool2]

4 hours ago, mr moose said:

It is true that production was scaled back during the pandemic,  but what has stopped it form being scaled back up again?   Nothing except the pipeline and drilling policy.  So the question becomes how much effect did those things have and if it wasn't much then why hasn't production been scaled back up again? 

Pretty much no sector has returned to normal.  If you look at the graph, you can see that it's approximately following the same curve as it did before (in terms of growth since 2020).  The issue becomes when they lost their workforce, the workforce went and found jobs elsewhere.  They also had to shutdown some of the facilities, and that in itself can take a year to get back to full capacity.

 

The tl;dr.  They can't just start from where they left off.

 

31 minutes ago, Jito463 said:

It seems to me like you're claiming those two decisions had little to no impact.  Care to clarify what point you're trying to make?

As a grand scheme of things they did.  The only thing that it would help is that the oil reserves could be maybe depleted more quickly (which we are nearing a level that it was in the great depression).  The simple fact is, looking at the crude oil stats, the US today is producing about the amount from 2019 (which in 2020 it hit levels of 2017 levels).  So really that says it grew at a pretty steady state.

 

8 hours ago, Assimov said:

Ye, being the only big american car manufacturer without a union and paying substantially less to your employees is innovation i guess. Maybe they'll switch from paying money to paying scrip or stock or using the american slavery system, those would be innovations on the same level.

Can't argue with that I said, so just barfing up more FUD that you read online, to date the average Tesla employee has made more on a per hour basis than GM [when factoring in union dues].  (Guess what, employees who join an union have to pay union dues and Tesla is offering competitive wages, so that means you lose out).

 

Here's a hint how to stay non-union; pay them more than what the union pays (when factoring in stock options) and state that joining the union will mean those benefits will disappear (i.e. if they unionize they will only offer what unionized jobs pay at other companies)

 

You want to claim that unions are so great though.  The UAW is effectively a corrupt mafia, but yes lets say that Tesla not being in the union is a good thing.

Let's see let's look at some of the previous presidents of the UAW union:

Gary Jones 2018 - 2019: Such a good union president, if you ignore the fact that he was charged with corruption there and sentenced to 28 months

Dennis Williams 2014 - 2018: Maybe Gary learned from him, Dennis was sentenced to 21 months for corruption.

 

It speaks to the severity of things that they were actually charged with corruptions, often times union heads would get a slap on the wrist and have a forced "retirement"...but sure, keep arguing that joining the UAW is a good thing.  The fact that a single probe got 12 high ranking union officials (2 of which being the presidents), tells me that corruption runs deep in the union and all that will happen is that the next group of people will just cover their tracks better.

[Spotty]

Thread locked, this discussion long since departed from having anything to do with the original topic.