Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1

[Stahlmann]

2 hours ago, AldiPrayogi said:

You should have someone with some but limited technical knowledge to try the first part of the challenge (someone like James, Riley, Collin, or Andy). Just to see how a regular joe (not a developer [Luke], or a technical person [Linus]) would deal with Linux.

Linus is pretty much on the same level of Linux knowledge as the average Joe. He specifically pointed out that he never used Linux on one of his own computers. And from the probles he had it's pretty clear he has no idea what he is doing while using Linux. So i'd say he's close enough.

[Kilrah]

14 minutes ago, Gimmick21 said:

Let's say a newcomer doesn't know anything by definition. How much time do you think he should invest when an error occures?

And "errors should not happen" is not a valid answer, bugs are everywhere and always will be.

When an error occurs I'd say someone like Linus who is used to tech should find the (correct) solution in less than 5 minutes.

 

But I was interpreting the post I was answering to as "you should go look up for known bugs/what issues there might be before you even start" and this would be a downright no, but might not have been what the poster meant.

[Gimmick21]

2 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

When an error occurs I'd say someone like Linux who is used to tech should find the (correct) solution in less than 5 minutes.

 

But I was interpreting the post I was answering to as "you should go look up for known bugs/what issues there might be before you even start" and this would be a downright no, but might not have been what the poster meant.

Ok, I thought it was meant differently. 

The last few bugs on Win I encountered where unsolveable for me, I invested ~two days on each. Two were 'solved' by switching the system to Linux, others by reinstalling the OS

 

The solution for the pop-os-steam-bug was actually only one click away. But he chose to google and copy paste code he did not understand. For me the question is: Why?

The answer is: Because the official Pop_Os! guid for gaming on Pop_OS! sais so.

Every other guide I found contains as step 1: Update.

 

But I still don't think that this is a problem specific to Linux or PopOs. Windows does not explain differences between .msi and .exe, there is no information about what the installer realy does and so on. And if there would be such information, no one would read it

 

And at this point the wish that "things should just work" collides with the reality, and all that's left is the hard (and best :D) way to learn things: try, break, repeat.

[Kilrah]

7 minutes ago, Gimmick21 said:

The solution for the pop-os-steam-bug was actually only one click away. But he chose to google and copy paste code he did not understand.

But while Linus could do better, it IS a thing that normal users will do. They are noobs, of course they won't understand. They found a page by googling for the direct issue they had, they copy/paste the commands without a clue of what they do etc...

[gaesgesa]

Had to make an account and post here because there are so much misinformation being spread.

 

1. Linus's setup is not "The Average User". He uses a rack mounted computer with exotic parts/components. eg Thunderbolt display on Threadripper as a gaming rig.
2. It was an unfortunate timing when Linus tried installing Steam.
   The Steam "installer" was broken at the time when Linus tried installing it. 
   The installer even says "this may be a temporary issue" on the error popup window.
   He could've waited a few hours and try installing again, and it would have been perfectly fine.
3. The reason that installing Steam "bricked" his system was because the Steam installer was bugged at the time, as explained earlier.
   In actuality, the system did not "brick". The system still worked fine, just without the GUI. The bug caused the GUI to uninstall.    
   The reason the GUI is even uninstallable is because it is not required for the system to function. Linux works fine without GUI.
   He could've reinstalled the GUI if he wanted to.
4. He did not read the warning messages when he used the command line.
   The full warning message was as follow.

   WARNING: The following essential packages will be removed.
   This should NOT be done unless you know exactly what you are doing!
   You are about to do something potentially harmful.
   To continue type in the phrase 'Yes, do as I say!'

    

5. Windows also has similar issue with Windows update "bricking" system.
   For example, KB4598242. Causes boot loop.
   If you were unfortunate enough to just happen to install the update before it got fixed, your system would have bricked.    
6. Installing third party software on Windows can also "brick" your system.    
   Famous case is the game "Phantasy Star Online 2", there was a bug in the installer where it deleted everything from your C: drive.
   If you were unfortunate enough to catch that installer before they pulled it your system would have been bricked also.

 

Common arguments:

• Installing Steam should never be possible to make the GUI disappear.
  It shouldn't, but it was bugged at the time of Linus's recording. Read (2)
• The GUI shouldn't even be removable in the first place.
  Linux works perfectly fine without GUI hence why it is removable. Read (3)
• The warnings should be more visible
  There are 4 full sentences of the warning. Read (4). Visibility is subjective.
• The system should not have bugs that can "brick" itself
  Windows has bugs that can cause it to brick itself. Read (5)
• Installing a simple software such as Steam should never be possible to break the system.
  Installing a simple software in Windows can also brick the system. Read (6)
• "The average gamer" will never read any of that and will break Linux one way or another.
  The average gamer will also break Windows.
• It's too easy to break things on Linux.
  It's easy to break Windows if you're only used to MacOS. It's easy to break Linux if you're only used to Windows. And it's easy to break BSD if you're only used to Linux.
• A third party app shouldn't nuke the OS.
  It did not nuke the OS. It uninstalled the GUI which is reinstallable. Read (3).
  It was a bug which was quickly fixed. Linus just had an unfortunate timing to catch the bug while it's not fixed yet. Read (3).
  This also happens on Windows. Read (6).
• Reinstalling the GUI is not possible for the average user.
  It shouldn't have happened in the first place because it was a bug. Read (3).
  It is also not possible for the average user to fix boot loop on Windows. Read (5).
• Windows does not require the use of command line to install Steam
  Neither does Linux. Linus installed Steam on Manjaro Linux successfully without any command line.
• Windows has a metric ton of safe-guards to protect or keep things hidden away from regular users from breaking their system.
  MacOS has even more safe-guards.
• This wasn't a case of a third-party app nuking the OS because the app had bad code in it.
  Steam is third party app and it had bad code in it at that particular moment. Same case as (6).
• That bug was caused by the package manager, so it's not a third party problem.
  Windows update, which is not third party, also causes bugs. Read (5)

[XWAUForceflow]

Oh man, I can already tell I will just love the series, not necessarily for the videos (though that one was okay) but for the comments...

The reactions I've seen so far mostly align just with what I expected. So much of it is pure reflex making sure nobody could ever think to fault Linux at all, it's all the users fault.

 

Which just completely fails to understand what this 'challenge' is all about.

 

This is not to see if gaming on Linux, or daily driving Linux as a gamer is possible. We know it is possible. The question is, can the average gamer be expected to get Linux to run well enough to do this. And looking at some of the comments here it absolutely baffles me to see the arguments some people here have. Linus not having enough technical know-how? Look, I am not saying Linus is a genius or a super tech professional, but to think that he knows less than the average gamer is just plain stupid. Linux built a tech channel pretty much on his own. Do you honestly believe you can do that without some above average know how of IT? Sure he has some pretty awesome talent available now, but that wasn't always the case and even then, just seeing some of the stuff he is tinkering with makes it clear that he does know his way around IT. Would Anthony be more effective in getting a daily driver Linux gaming system up and running? I think that's a fair bet, but does Anthony represent the average gamer? Heck no he doesn't, he is way, way more knowledgeable than that.

 

I think right now is the perfect time to do this challenge because of Windows 11. People will hate it (some with reason, some just because) and there might actually be a bunch of gamers who will look at a replacement to use instead. And some of those might look at Linux and think 'mhm... I heard that this is finally ready for a gamer' and try it out. Those are the people I think this 'challenge' best represents. Not the ones who just want to use Linux so they don't have to depend on Microsoft anymore.

So yes, those people are used to Windows (doesn't matter how much you hate it personally, but that's what the majority of the average (PC) gamer uses these days). Those folks might not have used the CLI ever. (I cannot remember when I last had to touch it other than setting up my super strange storage spaces setup that uses an SSD as a cache) Honestly, as soon as you need to use the CLI I can guarantee you a lot of average gamers would call it quits unless they are really, really motivated to stick with Linux.

In my opinion the whole challenge aspect of this gives Linux as an OS a huge leg up. Both Linus and Luke have to get the challenges done and actually run the system unless they want to walk around as a Windows advertisement. This means they will invest a lot more hours and work into this project than the average gamer ever would.

 

Don't get me wrong, I started using PCs in '94 when DOS and the CLI was the only thing there was. I use Linux at work (servers with no GUI at all) and I love the CLI (even installed cygwin on my home PC because some of the web-dev stuff I do is so much easier if you have a bash available), but for my home PC to get some games going? I don't want to have to use it. And that's coming from someone who is very, very comfortable using the CLI. And I certainly disagree with Linus that everything that can be done in a GUI is always faster than the CLI. There are a whole lot of things I automated with scripts and CLIs that are much, much faster using the CLI than a GUI. But I agree with Linus that for 99% of the things he plans to tackle in this challenge the CLI should not be a must. If it is you will instantly loose a large portion of those willing to switch. They either wont try it, or mess up like Linus and get their system to a point where they just cannot save it anymore. I've seen it! One of my uncles daily drives Linux because he refuses to touch anything MS. The amount of times he actually managed to brick his system by doing mundane stuff is ridiculous.

I remember at least 4 instances where he managed to lock himself out of the GUI, or even broke it completely. I don't even know how many hours of telephone support I had with him to get this sorted out. And he is not a super user, the stuff he wants to do is really basic. (And I have no clue how he manages to mess up his system so bad, at one time he just wanted to have a specific font installed... he followed a guide on the internet... and *bam* his GUI crashed...)

The outdated, convoluted and sometimes completely wrong guides on the internet on how to get stuff done on Linux is simply frightening. Unless this is solved and the community gets much more accepting of people wanting to do certain things in easier and more comfortable ways Linux will remain this niche Desktop OS.

 

Linux has come a very, very long way and I really do hope it will continue to get more mainstream. The openness of the system is great and anything that breaks the de-facto duopoly of Apple and Microsoft on the consumer desktop environment would be great. But in my opinion it's just not there yet.

[Wh0_Am_1]

AH! Linux Mint, that brings back old memories... when I had such a wimpy computer that to do anything remotely modern I had to run Mint rather than Windows... else bad times awaited. I use Windows now, but that is only because more games and programs worked on it for the longest time.... And save for a few servers and incursions with Linux in an Chromebook 14... (that I fixed on the cheap that was going to be tossed) with a Tegra K (good times XD... that was a pain esp. trying to use the CUDA cores) I haven't used pure Linux distros since. (yes I know that Android and Chrome OS are linux.)

 

'Couple of my old attempts to get the Chromebook working. (The Chromebook has long since been replaced)

 

 

[Ein0r]

27 minutes ago, XWAUForceflow said:

average gamers

 I agree with most of what you say, I'm in the same boat as many other average gamers who think of trying Linux before switching to Win 11. Which I probably won't after watching this challenge. My only criticism with the video was that Linus went from "average gamer" to "console peasant", when he decided to yolo the steam install.

 

Yes, it isn't unreasonable that an average gamer might think that this is all part of the plan and those files will just get reinstalled orupdated automatically. On the other hand it is also not unreasonable to assume that an average gamer might at least search for that error code or some help on the internet. 

 

When the average gamer decides to try Linux, everybody and their dog made them aware of the fact that Linux won't be an autopiloted ride like good old trusty Windows, and they will face issues along the way. And with that awareness in mind, and after getting such a weird error notification for a basic task, the alarm bells should ring very loudly, even in the head of an average gamer.

 

Time will tell when there'll be a "PeasantOS", for average gamers like me who just want something as easy as Windows, with all the compatibilities but without having to use Windows. Or command lines.

 

Edit: Maybe the video didn't do a very good job of portraying how much Linus was actually searching for a solution.

[RanAwaySuccessfully]

54 minutes ago, gaesgesa said:

Noobs will never read any of that and will break Linux one way or another.

Noobs will also break Windows.

I partially disagree. Windows has a metric ton of safe-guards to protect or keep things hidden away from regular users to the point where while it's theoretically possible, it's practically uncommon. The information required to truly screw up your system from doing the wrong thing is not as easily accessible online as it is on Linux, and by default it assumes with its UI that you don't know what you're doing. This is a double-edged sword because for tech-users, fixing an issue is easier on Linux because you can easily find information about where each config is and how it's set up, but on Windows you stumble upon billions of generic "top 10 ways to fix X" articles.

 

No "noob" is going to run a quick google search on an issue on Windows and stumble upon the command line that easily, and no "noob" will think that that's a reasonable thing to do on Windows, they'll see the command line and immediately get scared away. On Linux it's just mutually understood that sometimes the command-line is still necessary, and even if it wasn't, top google searches will still point towards the command line anyway.

 

This also wasn't a case of a third-party app nuking the OS because the app had bad code in it. This was a case of a perfectly fine app being accidentally screwed up by the distribution, and then the package manager nuking the OS. A closer comparison would be installing an app that requires a Visual C++ Redistributable on Windows, and then said Visual C++ installer requiring Windows to be nuked for it to finish installing.

[gaesgesa]

24 minutes ago, RanAwaySuccessfully said:

I partially disagree. Windows has a metric ton of safe-guards to protect or keep things hidden away from regular users to the point where while it's theoretically possible, it's practically uncommon. The information required to truly screw up your system from doing the wrong thing is not as easily accessible online as it is on Linux, and by default it assumes with its UI that you don't know what you're doing. This is a double-edged sword because for tech-users, fixing an issue is easier on Linux because you can easily find information about where each config is and how it's set up, but on Windows you stumble upon billions of generic "top 10 ways to fix X" articles.

 

No "noob" is going to run a quick google search on an issue on Windows and stumble upon the command line that easily, and no "noob" will think that that's a reasonable thing to do on Windows, they'll see the command line and immediately get scared away. On Linux it's just mutually understood that sometimes the command-line is still necessary, and even if it wasn't, top google searches will still point towards the command line anyway.

 

This also wasn't a case of a third-party app nuking the OS because the app had bad code in it. This was a case of a perfectly fine app being accidentally screwed up by the distribution, and then the package manager nuking the OS. A closer comparison would be installing an app that requires a Visual C++ Redistributable on Windows, and then said Visual C++ installer requiring Windows to be nuked for it to finish installing.

-    It's too easy to break things on Linux.
    It's easy to break Windows if you're only used to MacOS. It's easy to break Linux if you're only used to Windows. And it's easy to break BSD if you're only used to Linux.
-    A third party app shouldn't nuke the OS.
    It did not nuke the OS. It uninstalled the GUI which is reinstallable. Read (3).
    It was a bug which quickly fixed. Linus just had an unfortunate timing to catch the bug while it's not fixed yet. Read (3).
    This also happens on Windows. Read (6).
-    Windows does not require the use of command line to install Steam.
    Neither does Linux. Linus installed Steam on Manjaro Linux successfully without any command line.

-    Windows has a metric ton of safe-guards to protect or keep things hidden away from regular users from breaking their system.
    MacOS has even more safe-guards.

[RanAwaySuccessfully]

Quote

 It did not nuke the OS. It uninstalled the GUI which is reinstallable.

Do you know how many packages that is??????? Do you think it uninstalled JUST the desktop environment? Like, sure, I guess the entire GUI is "reinstallable", not that much of a headache for tech users specially those who are used to reconfiguring so their systems like that (I know for a time I used to have both KDE and LXQt side by side). I don't doubt that many other system applications are gonna be either misconfigured or completely broken. But damn good luck having your average user do that in the first place, at that point they'd just reinstall. Plus, there is no comparison to uninstalling Windows' Desktop Environment, this is the closest comparison available.

 

You have a point that it was a temporary issue and that usually installing Steam doesn't require the command line at all, but I still think you're overlooking some of my points. The comparison I mentioned with Visual C++ was specifically addressed towards (6). Either way, I hope you don't think Linux is ever gonna get more popular with that sort of mentality...

 

EDIT: As a clarification, I'm speaking more generally when I post, unless I specially mention what I'm speaking about. So "Windows does not require the use of command line to install Steam." was never really my point at any moment, it's more so about troubleshooting issues in general.

Edited November 11, 2021 by RanAwaySuccessfully

[gaesgesa]

13 minutes ago, RanAwaySuccessfully said:

Do you know how many packages that is??????? Do you think it uninstalled JUST the desktop environment? Like, sure, I guess the entire GUI is "reinstallable", not that much of a headache for tech users specially those who are used to reconfiguring so their systems like that (I know for a time I used to have both KDE and LXQt side by side). I don't doubt that many other system applications are gonna be either misconfigured or completely broken. But damn good luck having your average user do that in the first place, at that point they'd just reinstall. Plus, there is no comparison to uninstalling Windows' Desktop Environment, this is the closest comparison available.

 

You have a point that it was a temporary issue and that usually installing Steam doesn't require the command line at all, but I still think you're overlooking some of my points. The comparison I mentioned with Visual C++ was specifically addressed towards (6). Either way, I hope you don't think Linux is ever gonna get more popular with that sort of mentality...

 

EDIT: As a clarification, I'm speaking more generally when I post, unless I specially mention what I'm speaking about. So "Windows does not require the use of command line to install Steam." was never really my point at any moment, it's more so about troubleshooting issues in general.

-    Reinstalling the GUI is not possible for the average user.
    It shouldn't have happened in the first place because it was a bug. Read (3).
    It is also not possible for the average user to fix boot loop on Windows. Read (5).

-    This wasn't a case of a third-party app nuking the OS because the app had bad code in it.
    Steam is third party app and it had bad code in it at that particular moment. Same case as (6).
-    That bug was caused by the package manager, so it's not a third party problem.
    Windows update, which is not third party, also causes bugs. Read (5)

[RanAwaySuccessfully]

1 minute ago, gaesgesa said:

-    Reinstalling the GUI is not possible for the average user.
    It shouldn't have happened in the first place because it was a bug. Read (3).
    It is also not possible for the average user to fix boot loop on Windows. Read (5).

I've read it and I still disagree, but I guess it can't be helped.

 

I should go listen to the WAN podcast from last week, I've been meaning to do that since yesterday and just haven't had the time. I'm excited to hear about what upcoming challenges they're gonna face on the next few videos.

[gaesgesa]

9 minutes ago, RanAwaySuccessfully said:

I've read it and I still disagree, but I guess it can't be helped.

 

I should go listen to the WAN podcast from last week, I've been meaning to do that since yesterday and just haven't had the time. I'm excited to hear about what upcoming challenges they're gonna face on the next few videos.

Everything you have complained can also happen on every OS to ever exist in the past, in the present, and in the future.

You need to understand that you are essentially expecting Linux to be completely perfect. Which is not possible even on Windows.

Each OS are different. And you need to treat them differently. They only vaguely resembles each other.

They are not carbon copy of each other.

In order to use new thing, you need to learn how to use new thing.

You can't just expect that your knowledge of another thing can apply on to new thing perfectly.

[Hazz3r]

Honestly, I'm blaming Linus on this. His pre-conceived notions about GNU/Linux, his lack of reading, and the fact that he simply isn't an average user but a Power User. On Windows, no average user is going to fire up Power Shell if something fails to install from the Windows Store, especially if the Windows Store tells them that "The error is likely temporary". Linus has already set the expectation in his mind that he has to use the terminal at some point already, because of things that he has done with Anthony, a GNU/Linux Power User. Add in the fact it was a new install so Linus probably felt pretty nonchalant about what Data was there.

 

Frankly, there's also probably some bias in that he would prefer to go "bull-in-a-china-shop" because if something goes wrong then that's content, and that's controversy, and that's attention, virility, and ultimately ad impressions.

 

 I can't say that after this episode I trust this series to be a fair insight, but it certainly will be an entertaining one.

 

Also:

But casually follows the second and third rated answer, rather than the top answer which is to install from the Steam Website.

https://askubuntu.com/questions/636500/why-cant-i-download-steam?answertab=active#tab-top

[Gimmick21]

Just now, gaesgesa said:

Everything you have complained can also happen on every OS to ever exist in the past, in the present, and in the future.

You need to understand that you are essentially expecting Linux to be completely perfect. Which is not possible even on Windows.

Yes, I agree with that and I'm pro Linux is this case, but there are flaws nonetheless.

• No update option while installing
• No update notification in the "greetings screen"
• No explanation why there is steam.deb and steam flatpack
• No explanation about what that even is and what you should chose
• Pop_OS!' own guide is based on terminal commands but the same Pop_OS! praises their GUI

No point on this list changes Linux as such fundamentaly but every point would have prevented the problem.

Two points contra Linus and pro Linux: Outdated guides are common. There are LTT videos with tips&tricks for Windows, that have not been revisited. Will the link to the guide for the 'old' context-menu be removed if that doesn't work anymore? I guess not.   Updating a fresh installation is what everyone does on every OS.

[RanAwaySuccessfully]

23 minutes ago, gaesgesa said:

Everything you have complained can also happen on every OS to ever exist in the past, in the present, and in the future.

You need to understand that you are essentially expecting Linux to be completely perfect. Which is not possible even on Windows.

That's not it at all and was never my point. I'm not expecting an OS to be perfect. Windows is not perfect. Linux is not perfect. I've had to deal with Linux's issues and so far it's been a good but bumpy ride. Many people deal with the issues that Windows causes no problem, and there's so many out there that dread Windows updates to this day, for good reason.

 

I've always thought about this whole video series as a test to see if Linux is more convenient for most users to have a more pleasant experience using it than Windows, and also to get an idea to see if Linux really does have hope at becoming a mainstream platform or if it's not there yet. I know it's only a small sample rate of 2 people, but with LTT's experiences plus my own + those around me IRL, I came to the conclusion that Linux in general is more likely to cause issues than Windows, and until Linux is (in general) less likely to cause issues than Windows, then I don't see its popularity changing. Maybe that conclusion is wrong. Or maybe there's not enough data to make a conclusion. Or maybe Linux happens to be in a situation where nobody knows for sure if it's more convenient or not, which tends to happen when something is more or less on par with another one. That's what my posts have been about, really.

 

Either way, I don't wanna spend more time here than I already have.

[gaesgesa]

4 minutes ago, Gimmick21 said:

Yes, I agree with that and I'm pro Linux is this case, but there are flaws nonetheless.

• No update option while installing
• No update notification in the "greetings screen"
• No explanation why there is steam.deb and steam flatpack
• No explanation about what that even is and what you should chose
• Pop_OS!' own guide is based on terminal commands but the same Pop_OS! praises their GUI

No point on this list changes Linux as such fundamentaly but every point would have prevented the problem.

Two points contra Linus and pro Linux: Outdated guides are common. There are LTT videos with tips&tricks for Windows, that have not been revisited. Will the link to the guide for the 'old' context-menu be removed if that doesn't work anymore? I guess not.   Updating a fresh installation is what everyone does on every OS.

- No explanation why there is steam.deb and steam flatpack

There are no explanation on most Windows software on why there is x86, x64 and portable versions either
- No explanation about what that even is and what you should chose

Read previous point.

- Pop_OS!' own guide is based on terminal commands but the same Pop_OS! praises their GUI

Even official Microsoft knowledge base website also suggests using terminal commands.

- Every point would have prevented the problem

Maybe, maybe not. No matter how big the warnings are people will still find a way break stuff.

 

[gaesgesa]

4 minutes ago, RanAwaySuccessfully said:

I came to the conclusion that Linux in general is more likely to cause issues than Windows

That is because you're used to Windows more than Linux.

It's easy to break Windows if you're only used to MacOS. It's easy to break Linux if you're only used to Windows. And it's easy to break BSD if you're only used to Linux.
 

[Gimmick21]

17 minutes ago, gaesgesa said:

- No explanation why there is steam.deb and steam flatpack

There are no explanation on most Windows software on why there is x86, x64 and portable versions either
- No explanation about what that even is and what you should chose

Read previous point.

- Pop_OS!' own guide is based on terminal commands but the same Pop_OS! praises their GUI

Even official Microsoft knowledge base website also suggests using terminal commands.

- Every point would have prevented the problem

Maybe, maybe not. No matter how big the warnings are people will still find a way break stuff.

 

"Windows does things wrong, too" does not solve problems and is no argument . And there aren't multiple versions in the Windows Store

If adding a choice with an explanation makes things to complicated for the "newcomer/gamer" -> do what everyone always does: reduce options.

And if clicking on a combobox / reading a few lines of explanation is too much for "the average joe" -> insert 'i don't want to live on this planet anymore meme [here]

[gaesgesa]

20 minutes ago, Gimmick21 said:

"Windows does things wrong, too" does not solve problems and is no argument . And there aren't multiple versions in the Windows Store

If adding a choice with an explanation makes things to complicated for the "newcomer/gamer" -> do what everyone always does: reduce options.

And if clicking on a combobox / reading a few lines of explanation is too much for "the average joe" -> insert 'i don't want to live on this planet anymore meme [here]

- Windows does things wrong, too" does not solve problems and is no argument
It is a counter-argument, because the argument was "Linux does X (That windows doesn't)"

- And there aren't multiple versions in the Windows Store
Incorrect. There are multiple versions of the same app in Windows Store.

- do what everyone always does: reduce options
Reducing options certainly does help newcomers. I suggest MacOS.

- And if clicking on a combobox / reading a few lines of explanation is too much for "the average joe" 
"The average joe" doesn't know how to install Steam on windows.

[Leslieann]

6 hours ago, rjbradlow said:

Ok people, if you have anything nvidia, you will have trouble running it in any *nix environment... Period.

I have Intel, AMD and Nvidia GPUs, the biggest difference is having to install the Nvidia driver myself. Meh.

 

That said, it can be distro dependent.
Something way behind the bleeding edge (such as Mint) is (ironically) going to have more problems than something like Arch which has all the latest drivers and installers.

 

  

4 hours ago, Gimmick21 said:

 

Let's say a newcomer doesn't know anything by definition. How much time do you think he should invest when an error occures?

And "errors should not happen" is not a valid answer, bugs are everywhere and always will be.

When you started with Windows (or Mac) odds are you started with a pre-installed system and slowly over several years learned more and more to the extent you could install Windows yourself. You didn't learn it overnight.

 

Had someone handed you a new computer and only a Windows install disk your experience would have been much closer to what it is with Linux, BSD or even Hackintosh.

 

  

4 hours ago, Kilrah said:

When an error occurs I'd say someone like Linus who is used to tech should find the (correct) solution in less than 5 minutes.

That is a misconception.

Linus knows knows Windows, all his experience, preconceived notions and more importantly terminology is Windows based. Knowing that terminology in Windows makes finding solutions easy and fast but it's because you know the terminology that you can find answers quickly.

 

If you ask Google "how to change spark plugs Ford Mustang" it will tell you, but if all you know is cars and gasoline engines and search up "how to change spark plugs in diesel pickup" you won't find your answer. Why? Because diesel engines use glow plugs, not spark plugs. Terminology matters to the extent that the wrong terms can be worse than using none at all and until you learn the correct terminology troubleshooting can be a nightmare.

[Leslieann]

39 minutes ago, Gimmick21 said:

And there aren't multiple versions in the Windows Store

Sure there are, every major release brings changes that effect troubleshooting and tweaking.

 

Just a few off the top of my head, the ability to delay updates was added well after release, the network icon near the clock has changed functions as to where it goes when you click at least 3 times, some of the registry edits for early Windows 10 to disable telemetry and updates will brick modern versions of Win10.

 

The older Win10 gets the bigger this problem is.

I've had numerous calls with users where I go to walk them through a fix over the phone only to find the path has changed because they have an older or newer version than the one in front of me at the time.

[Arika]

5 hours ago, Gimmick21 said:

The solution for the pop-os-steam-bug was actually only one click away. But he chose to google and copy paste code he did not understand. For me the question is: Why?

Becuase that's how linux works. i would say 90% of troubleshooting solutions on forums are "just run this as sudo in the terminal".

 

How is a new user supposed to have any kind of comprehension into what linux is telling them in the terminal?

I just ran sudo apt upgrade and got this

 

 

should i be reading up on every single package that is about to be installed before i press Y?

and then if i do what it says and run apt autoremove, how the hell do i know what it's getting rid of?

Yes it "says" what packages are being afffected, but i don't know what they are

 

That is the reality of linux. 99.9% of people don't know what the terminal is telling them every time they are asked to confirm something, they just trust that it's going to work.

[InstantNewt]

7 minutes ago, Arika S said:

Becuase that's how linux works. i would say 90% of troubleshooting solutions on forums are "just run this as sudo in the terminal".

I use UNIX daily at my job and am heavily dependent on terminal commands. The incessant use of the terminal in Linux drives me up the wall. The terminal is a very powerful tool for those that know what they're doing, but it is the worst possible thing for the average user. As long as every single forum insists on telling the user to "just use the terminal" and distros don't bury it deep in the closet like Apple and Microsoft have done, Linux will never be a mainstream desktop OS.