Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1

[Gimmick21]

8 minutes ago, gaesgesa said:

- Windows does things wrong, too" does not solve problems and is no argument
It is a counter-argument, because the argument was "Linux does X (That windows doesn't)"

- And there aren't multiple versions in the Windows Store
Incorrect. There are multiple versions of the same app in Windows Store.

- do what everyone always does: reduce options
Reducing options certainly does help newcomers. I suggest MacOS.

- And if clicking on a combobox / reading a few lines of explanation is too much for "the average joe" 
"The average joe" doesn't know how to install Steam on windows.

Sorry, you are mixing things up here a bit. Our conversation started with an agreement, that every OS has its problems, not with "Windows doesn't".

Do you have an example for a duplicated app? I did not know that and I'm curious, because in the store, every app has to have a distinct PFN - as far as I know. //Edit: I learned that 32bit and 64bit can co-exist, and I think that's a flaw.

MacOS for a gamer is not a good suggestion

Cutting the phrase in half removes the ironic part of my statement and inverts its meaning, please don't do that.

 

2 minutes ago, Leslieann said:

Sure there are, every major release brings changes that effect troubleshooting and tweaking.

 

Just a few off the top of my head, the ability to delay updates was added well after release, the network icon near the clock has changed functions as to where it goes when you click at least 3 times, some of the registry edits for early Windows 10 to disable telemetry and updates will brick modern versions of Win10.

 

The older Win10 gets the bigger this problem is.

I've had numerous calls with users where I go to walk them through a fix over the phone only to find the path has changed because they have an older or newer version than the one in front of me at the time.

That's not what I meant.

Example: As far as I know, there is no msi, exe or portable version of an app. Because the type of installation is fixed.

But I learned right now, that there are 32 bit and 64 bit Versions - I did not know that, they should filter that automagically.

 

@Arika S

Exactly! But it's not true. The cake is a lie!

It's the flaw in the behavior/habit of the Linux community, that Linus mentioned. The guide made by Pop_OS is the perfect example of a habit that contradicts the original intention. Their own guide should use their own GUI. if you don't use it -> don't make one.

 

But it's nice to see how those little things, that are even already solved in the OS, can cause so much drama

That's btw. one of the bigger problems with video-guides: They get even less updates than text-guides.

 

[gaesgesa]

8 minutes ago, InstantNewt said:

I use UNIX daily at my job and am heavily dependent on terminal commands. The incessant use of the terminal in Linux drives me up the wall. The terminal is a very powerful tool for those that know what they're doing, but it is the worst possible thing for the average user. As long as every single forum insists on telling the user to "just use the terminal" and distros don't bury it deep in the closet like Apple and Microsoft have done, Linux will never be a mainstream desktop OS.

You don't have to touch the terminal if all you wanted to do is installing Steam and play some games.

Your perception is wrong. The average user does not fear just the terminal. They fear anything that they don't understand.

This includes Windows Control Panel, and Windows Registry Editor. Which you aren't required to touch as well if all you wanted to do was play some games on Steam.

[gaesgesa]

10 minutes ago, Gimmick21 said:

Do you have an example for a duplicated app? I did not know that and I'm curious, because in the store, every app has to have a distinct PFN - as far as I know. //Edit: I learned that 32bit and 64bit can co-exist, and I think that's a flaw.

This is exactly the problem with a lot of people. They find fault with Linux and automatically assume it's a Linux-only problem while not realizing that Windows does the same thing but they never noticed just because they're already familiar with Windows.

"Linux does X (That windows doesn't)"

[InstantNewt]

6 minutes ago, gaesgesa said:

You don't have to touch the terminal if all you wanted to do is installing Steam and play some games.

Your perception is wrong. The average user does not fear just the terminal. They fear anything that they don't understand.

This includes Windows Control Panel, and Windows Registry Editor. Which you aren't required to touch as well if all you wanted to do was play some games on Steam.

I never once mentioned specific use cases, just that Linux tutorials in general will guide the user towards the terminal which is a poor way of going about something. 
 

Don’t come at me with specific examples for things I wasn’t talking about. 

[gaesgesa]

8 minutes ago, InstantNewt said:

I never once mentioned specific use cases, just that Linux tutorials in general will guide the user towards the terminal which is a poor way of going about something. 
 

Don’t come at me with specific examples for things I wasn’t talking about. 

It is a poor way in your opinion. It is not in others opinions.

Your perception of "Terminal bad GUI good" is subjective.

If people find that using the GUI is the better way, there would be GUI guides eventually.

Besides that, even the official Windows Knowledge Base will ask you to use Powershell a lot of the time. (eg, trust relationship cannot be established error)

[WkdPaul]

1 minute ago, gaesgesa said:

If people really find that using the GUI will be better, there would be GUI guides.

And this is why Linux won't ever be mainstream ... the average user doesn't want interaction even with GUI solutions, so forget "default terminal solutions" that are everywhere in Linux guides, nobody outside of people comfortable with a CLI will touch Linux.

 

If you're fine with the terminal and having to turn to it for everything, then you'll have to come with terms with the critics that CLI isn't comfortable for the average user.

[gaesgesa]

9 minutes ago, WkdPaul said:

And this is why Linux won't ever be mainstream ... the average user doesn't want interaction even with GUI solutions, so forget "default terminal solutions" that are everywhere in Linux guides, nobody outside of people comfortable with a CLI will touch Linux.

 

If you're fine with the terminal and having to turn to it for everything, then you'll have to come with terms with the critics that CLI isn't comfortable for the average user.

People that find CLI better are already on Linux like how people that find locked down system better are already on MacOS.

The term "average user" is being thrown around a lot, but this has no exact definition.

What is your definition of "average user"?

What if that "average user" takes time to read warnings, do research, has the right expectations that Linux is not like their previous OS?

This average user would perform complete fine with Linux after a few weeks.

 

If your definition of "average user" is a person that does not read warnings, does not do research, does not actually want to learn a new OS.

Then this average user would certainly be better off with an OS that they are already familiar with.

 

If the user is not comfortable with leaving their comfort zone, why would they? I have nothing against this.

[InstantNewt]

3 minutes ago, gaesgesa said:

People that find CLI better are already on Linux like how people that find locked down system better are already on MacOS.

The term "average user" is being thrown around a lot, but this has no exact definition.

What is your definition of "average user"?

What if that "average user" takes time to read warnings, do research, has the right expectations that Linux is not like their previous OS?

This average user would perform complete fine with Linux after a few weeks.

Aaaaand there it is. When you can't make a compelling argument, just start arguing semantics!

[Gimmick21]

Maybe the usage of the terminal in guides is unavoidable for most (not all) distributions, because no one knows what GUI the reader is using

 

If I would have to chose between "flexibility and terminal" or "one fixed GUI and no terminal": flexibility ftw!  It's a PC not a MAC

[gaesgesa]

2 minutes ago, InstantNewt said:

Aaaaand there it is. When you can't make a compelling argument, just start arguing semantics!

Please stop being rude. I am not arguing, because there is no argument to be made since it's all subjective.

[InstantNewt]

3 minutes ago, Gimmick21 said:

Maybe the usage of the terminal in guides is unavoidable for most (not all) distributions, because no one knows what GUI the reader is using

 

If I would have to chose between "flexibility and terminal" or "one fixed GUI and no terminal": flexibility ftw!  It's a PC not a MAC

Now that's a fair point that I absolutely understand. With as many DEs out there it's definitely easier to just give instructions in the terminal to avoid trying to navigate through a GUI you aren't looking at.

[InstantNewt]

Just now, gaesgesa said:

Please stop being rude. I am not arguing, because there is no argument to be made since it's all subjective.

You're the one saying my opinion is wrong.

[gaesgesa]

Just now, InstantNewt said:

You're the one saying my opinion is wrong.

Please read again, I said you have wrong perception of "Terminal is the worst possible thing for the average user".

I did not attack your opinion nor your character, which you did to me.

[InstantNewt]

I think I'm done here.

[Gimmick21]

7 minutes ago, InstantNewt said:

Now that's a fair point that I absolutely understand. With as many DEs out there it's definitely easier to just give instructions in the terminal to avoid trying to navigate through a GUI you aren't looking at.

And I would add:

No matter how bad a niche distro for "normal/average/n00b/whatever users" is and how many of that kind exist: They can only exist because Linux is what it is. You do not need to be a multi-billion dollar company to create your own OS, isn't that great?

Terminal as a downside is not that bad x)

[Spindel]

30 minutes ago, gaesgesa said:

People that find CLI better are already on Linux like how people that find locked down system better are already on MacOS.

The term "average user" is being thrown around a lot, but this has no exact definition.

What is your definition of "average user"?

What if that "average user" takes time to read warnings, do research, has the right expectations that Linux is not like their previous OS?

This average user would perform complete fine with Linux after a few weeks.

 

If your definition of "average user" is a person that does not read warnings, does not do research, does not actually want to learn a new OS.

Then this average user would certainly be better off with an OS that they are already familiar with.

 

If the user is not comfortable with leaving their comfort zone, why would they? I have nothing against this.

You do know MacOS has CLI for pretty much everything you might use CLI for in Linux?

 

I would almost say your knowlege of MacOS equates to clicking around in the GUI for 5 min in an Apple Store. 

[WkdPaul]

14 minutes ago, Sakuriru said:

I use a CLI a lot, but I use Windows.

 

That's because I like my programs being able to be run easily

You have to understand you're not the average user.

 

Because someone can build a PC and play games doesn't mean they're comfortable with troubleshooting or navigating an OS through the CLI.

 

I dual boot Windows 10 and Pop_OS!, and I'm totally fine with the terminal, powershell and the command prompt (because work), but that doesn't mean I want to spend hours fixing something on my personal PC. I tried Manjaro and had issues, and like I said, I'm pretty comfortable with CLI and troubleshooting, but after 2 days of digging through fixes and config files, I gave up. It's not something I would expect the average user to do, and it's pretty annoying to see people defending this type of stuff. What Linus did here is on par with what I'm expecting the average gamer to do ; if it doesn't work, Google, try the first result that seems reasonable and plow through.

 

Anyone saying it's unreasonable haven't interacted with end users, either at all, or enough to understand what happen is pretty accurate (hell, just jump in the troubleshooting of THIS very forum ... not saying not knowing is a bad thing, just saying the Linux crowd are hugely overestimating what the average PC user can do and what they're ready to do to fix something).

[Jeppes]

50 minutes ago, WkdPaul said:

And this is why Linux won't ever be mainstream ... the average user doesn't want interaction even with GUI solutions, so forget "default terminal solutions" that are everywhere in Linux guides, nobody outside of people comfortable with a CLI will touch Linux.

 

If you're fine with the terminal and having to turn to it for everything, then you'll have to come with terms with the critics that CLI isn't comfortable for the average user.

Everything from terminal? Its when you want to do something stupid that is not well supported when you need terminal. I would love to use terminal in win11 too and install programs from centralized safe source where its almost impossible for the app developer to target specific users with malicious versions of their software.

[gaesgesa]

17 minutes ago, Spindel said:

You do know MacOS has CLI for pretty much everything you might use CLI for in Linux?

 

I would almost say your knowlege of MacOS equates to clicking around in the GUI for 5 min in an Apple Store. 

I am aware of that. But I can't comment much further because I don't use MacOS myself 

[WkdPaul]

1 minute ago, Jeppes said:

Everything from terminal? Its when you want to do something stupid that is not well supported when you need terminal.

That's absolutely not what I said. I may have been unclear, so here is what I'm trying to say ; when you Google a fix it's almost always a solution that sends you to the terminal, this is where you lose 90% of the average users out there, and unless you know what you're doing, copy/pasting terminal commands is extremely unsafe (regardless of the OS, so I'm 100% including Windows in there, but the topic here is Linux).

 

 

1 minute ago, Jeppes said:

I would love to use terminal in win11 too and install programs from centralized safe source where its almost impossible for the app developer to target specific users with malicious versions of their software.

You can, winget lets you install MS Store apps through powershell.

[gaesgesa]

6 minutes ago, WkdPaul said:

when you Google a fix it's almost always a solution that sends you to the terminal, this is where you lose 90% of the average users out there

"Average Windows users" is the most correct terminology for what you are trying to say.

"Average Power users" will probably have no problems learning the terminal.

[WkdPaul]

5 minutes ago, gaesgesa said:

"Average Windows users" is the most correct terminology for what you are trying to say.

 

Yes, that's the WHOLE point of the video, or did you completely ignored that?

 

5 minutes ago, gaesgesa said:

"Average Power users" will probably have no problems learning the terminal.

The "average user" is NOT a power user, that's the whole definition ; average - a level that is typical of a group, class, or series : a middle point between extremes

 

a power user is at one extreme of the scale, on the other side are users that don't know basic terminology like "desktop", "folders", "icons" "tabs", etc...

[gaesgesa]

1 minute ago, WkdPaul said:

 

Yes, that's the WHOLE point of the video, or did you completely ignored that?

 

The "average user" is NOT a power user, that's the whole definition ; average - a level that is typical of a group, class, or series : a middle point between extremes

 

a power user is at one extreme of the scale, on the other side are users that don't know basic terminology like "desktop", "folders", "icons" "tabs", etc...

First. I don't disagree that the average windows users are scared of the terminal.

Second. I was providing more insight. Not arguing about your post.

Third. Your "The "average user" is NOT a power user" is correct. That's why I said "Average Power users".

 

Look, just because you don't like Linux doesn't mean everybody that does is hostile to you and you have to respond with hostility.

 

[PoopnEvryDay]

As a big fan of Pop, it was pretty heart breaking to see it explode in the video. I actually learned about Pop_OS from an older LTT video, and I'm sure many people did as well.

 

I've had a love hate relationship with Linux since 2000. My first real experience was extremely frustrating too... Believe me when I say we've come a long way in 21 years.

 

As some of you, I'm quite comfortable with the terminal and have a pretty good feel for Debian/Ubuntu distributions. I did my time, destroyed a gazillion installs, beat my head against the wall, scoured the darkest parts of internet forums for fixes to obscure problems... the works. I would have not had the same issues as Linus, BUT AS I WANT THE WANT TO SEE THE POP_OS AND AND LINUX USERBASE GROW I think it's important to try to view things from the perspective of a new user who perhaps only uses Windows, Mac OS or even iOS or Android. I believe that's the point of the video after all.

 

So What Happened? 

Spoiler

Linus attempted to grab Steam from the PopShop. Got an error, went to the internet for help and typed in a pretty benign command in the terminal, received a wall of text with technical language in it and proceeded to remove his DE (desktop environment) and several components and dependencies related to it. He then rebooted and was greeted with the terminal and nothing else.

Why did it do that?

A misconfigured package. This was completely on Pop. It's happened on lots of distributions. In my opinion it's a flaw in APT. Conflicting dependencies from a misconfigured package caused what is called a 'Dependency Hell'. I'm not sure when the original live stream was, but the bug was reported and has been fixed for a while, however I've heard it remained in the installation ISO until very recently.

 

Would this have happened to a Linux veteran?

Probably not. An update to the repositories would have prevented this from occurring.

sudo apt get update

The average veteran would have LIKELY NOT gone directly to the website and downloaded the steam .deb file. Pop's repositories are largely curated by paid people at Canonical (ubuntu) and most of us feel more comfortable downloading packages from these repositories for that reason.

 

What I Believe We Learned

Linux Newbs are still expected to go in and break stuff until they learn. This is a problem.

 

Surface level google searches still reference the terminal as much as possible, even though the average person who would search for help probably would be uncomfortable with the terminal.

 

There still exists an air of elitism and snobbishness within the Linux, though it's NOTHING compared to how it was before. There is actually quite a lot of support for Linus from veterans who see this as a failure of UX, QA, and possibly the package manager itself.

 

Developers should not have direct interaction with users who experience bugs. (this is reference to a completely out of touch tweet from a developer that has since deleted it. It was about how 'normal users' would file a bug report on github. No... No they would not.

 

What I hope System76 Learns

Dev's in many software companies are not allowed to respond directly to users in relation to bugs... this is for a reason.

 

UX around the GUI should be designed around new users and not grizzled veterans who are going to open up the terminal anyway.

 

Repository updates should be strongly encouraged in UI elements.

 

A wall of technical language will not stop a user from breaking his system no matter how hard you will it to be true. 

[WkdPaul]

1 minute ago, gaesgesa said:

First. I don't disagree that the average windows users are scared of the terminal.

Second. I was providing more insight. Not arguing about your post.

Third. Your "The "average user" is NOT a power user" is correct. That's why I said "Average Power users".

Then I'm confused as to why you need to add those "corrections" if you understood what I meant.

 

 

1 minute ago, gaesgesa said:

Look, just because you don't like Linux doesn't mean everybody that does is hostile to you and you have to respond with hostility.

I'm running Pop_OS ... so I'm not sure what you're on about. What I hate is elitists and people trying to avoid genuine criticism.