Linux HATES Me – Daily Driver CHALLENGE Pt.1

[gaesgesa]

5 minutes ago, WkdPaul said:

Then I'm confused as to why you need to add those "corrections" if you understood what I meant.

 

 

I'm running Pop_OS ... so I'm not sure what you're on about. What I hate is elitists and people trying to avoid genuine criticism.

Terminology is important when we're talking about technology, so that people uninvolved in the conversation can have the correct understandings.

Using the wrong terms can be worse than using none at all.

[Blademaster91]

46 minutes ago, WkdPaul said:

Because someone can build a PC and play games doesn't mean they're comfortable with troubleshooting or navigating an OS through the CLI.

If someone can build a PC and install games then I would think they are above the level of an average user and should be able to navagate an OS, and maybe be able to google what to type into a CLI.

17 minutes ago, WkdPaul said:

on the other side are users that don't know basic terminology like "desktop", "folders", "icons" "tabs", etc...

Then the users on the level of not knowing what a desktop or icons are, likely don't even know what Linux is.

4 minutes ago, WkdPaul said:

I'm running Pop_OS ... so I'm not sure what you're on about. What I hate is elitists and people trying to avoid genuine criticism.

You're running it but you seem to be against anyone but a "power user" running linux, just because Linus ignored a warning message,I see the complaint of elitism a lot and ironically there is elitism here.

[WkdPaul]

1 minute ago, Blademaster91 said:

If someone can build a PC and install games then I would think they are above the level of an average user and should be able to navagate an OS, and maybe be able to google what to type into a CLI.

You would think wrong, I know plenty of people being able to slap a few parts together, install Windows, install Steam and Chrome, yet are completely unable to open a command prompt and do basic troubleshooting.

 

 

1 minute ago, Blademaster91 said:

Then the users on the level of not knowing what a desktop or icons are, likely don't even know what Linux is.

Thanks for completely missing the point ; the average user is in between the 2 extremes I mentioned (neophytes that don't know basic terminology, and power users).

 

1 minute ago, Blademaster91 said:

You're running it but you seem to be against anyone but a "power user" running linux, just because Linus ignored a warning message,I see the complaint of elitism a lot and ironically there is elitism here.

So me, using Linux, and complaining that it caters to power users is elitist ? lol ok.

[Hairless Monkey Boy]

2 minutes ago, WkdPaul said:

I know plenty of people being able to slap a few parts together, install Windows, install Steam and Chrome, yet are completely unable to open a command prompt and do basic troubleshooting.

Most of my friends fall into this category. Most gamers probably do, as well.

[gaesgesa]

8 minutes ago, WkdPaul said:

You would think wrong, I know plenty of people being able to slap a few parts together, install Windows, install Steam and Chrome, yet are completely unable to open a command prompt and do basic troubleshooting.

 

 

Thanks for completely missing the point ; the average user is in between the 2 extremes I mentioned (neophytes that don't know basic terminology, and power users).

 

So me, using Linux, and complaining that it caters to power users is elitist ? lol ok.

See? That's why you need to define what your "average user" is when you're talking.

We have different perspective on what the "average user" actually is.

The "average users" I know don't even know how to add a printer to their Windows system.

Does that mean people that can add printers themselves are not "average users"?

[WkdPaul]

1 minute ago, gaesgesa said:

See? That's why you need to define what your "average user" is when you're talking.

We have different perspective on what the "average user" actually is.

The "average users" I know don't even know how to add a printer to their Windows system.

Does that mean people that can are not "average users"?

What????

 

It's like you guys are purposefully being pedantic out of spite or something.

 

Linux caters to power users, power users are a VERY small set of all the users out there.

 

Expecting someone to switch to Linux and having a perfect, problem free experience that doesn't involve the terminal is ludicrous.

[Tan3l6]

These arguments always end up in defining the terminology...

[Hairless Monkey Boy]

@WkdPaulI'll just say, "You aren't crazy." And leave it at that.

 

Spoiler

I have plenty of other things I could say, but none would be productive or move the conversation forward.

 

[gaesgesa]

Just now, WkdPaul said:

What????

 

It's like you guys are purposefully being pedantic out of spite or something.

 

Linux caters to power users, power users are a VERY small set of all the users out there.

 

Expecting someone to switch to Linux and having a perfect, problem free experience that doesn't involve the terminal is ludicrous.

That's not what I said.

I said that your perspective of what is an "average user" differs than other people.

 

Blademaster91's "average users" can troubleshoot their own stuff.

My "average users" can't even add printers on their own.

 

What is your "average users"?

 

Quote

Expecting someone to switch to Linux and having a perfect, problem free experience that doesn't involve the terminal is ludicrous.

I agree.

[InstantNewt]

I'm struggling with community standards point 3 so hard right now...

[PoopnEvryDay]

Quote

If someone can build a PC and install games then I would think they are above the level of an average user and should be able to navagate an OS, and maybe be able to google what to type into a CLI.

So, in a recent article I read, kids these days are not familiar with the concept of a directory structure. 

https://www.pcgamer.com/students-dont-know-what-files-and-folders-are-professors-say/

 

And yet I fully believe many of them are probably capable of installing games or building computers because these are different skills. Files and directories are no longer surface level elements. CLI's haven't been a surface level element for decades. These skills are not related. 

 

While the 'average' user may very well be able to copy and paste a command from a google search, it's extremely unlikely they read up on exactly how things were working from the man pages, looked into what all the flags and arguments did, or even understand what any of that means.  

[Blademaster91]

5 hours ago, WkdPaul said:

You would think wrong, I know plenty of people being able to slap a few parts together, install Windows, install Steam and Chrome, yet are completely unable to open a command prompt and do basic troubleshooting.

I see plenty of people asking here in the troubleshooting section, if you don't know then ask or google, its better than ignoring a warning that nukes a whole install.

5 hours ago, WkdPaul said:

Thanks for completely missing the point ; the average user is in between the 2 extremes I mentioned (neophytes that don't know basic terminology, and power users).

Well you didn't define what an "average" user is, but I see a lot of people in here insisting Linux is only for power users, because Linus had a bad experience with one Linux distro.

5 hours ago, WkdPaul said:

So me, using Linux, and complaining that it caters to power users is elitist ? lol ok.

It's the opposite of the elitism people complain about with Linux forums, people claiming Windows "just works" when Windows 10 likes to f*ck itself all the time and the "average user" wouldn't know how to troubleshoot that either.

 

[RejZoR]

6 minutes ago, WkdPaul said:

What????

 

It's like you guys are purposefully being pedantic out of spite or something.

 

Linux caters to power users, power users are a VERY small set of all the users out there.

 

Expecting someone to switch to Linux and having a perfect, problem free experience that doesn't involve the terminal is ludicrous.

Actually you can. Assuming 2 things:

a) installation goes without issues and all hardware is properly detected

b) all apps are obtained from official repository for that distro

 

In this case, I can see it being great and seamless experience. Only reason I didn't have it initially was because my WLAN module wasn't detected on laptop, which meant a massive hassle pairing phone to laptop to get internet so I could even pull stuff from some other repository using Terminal. So that quickly turned into massive fuckery really quickly.

 

Few months later and all current Linux distros seem to detect said Realtek WLAN module. Now, experience is very different and I actually haven't touched Terminal at all and just used app store in Manjaro to get all the apps.

 

Only one for which I had to manually download the binary was pCloud client. Which was installed with built in AppImage easily.

[PoopnEvryDay]

Quote

Expecting someone to switch to Linux and having a perfect, problem free experience that doesn't involve the terminal is ludicrous.

There's certainly room for improvement. 

 

I think that largely, many things can be mitigated, fixed, etc purely with UI elements, but we aren't there yet. the unix-like backend is a strength of linux and as such, over the years developers have either been a little out of touch with the novice who would rather do things with GUI elements or dragged their feet because for them the terminal is much easier and robust. 

 

When designing UI elements in 'easy to use' distros like Pop, developers should cater to the newbie audience. Falling back on the terminal shouldn't be a requirement, just an option. I fully believe we'll see it improve.

 

For a less buggy experience, maybe stick with Fedora or Ubuntu as they have much larger, paid teams who can likely do better QA than a small niche distro. 

[RanAwaySuccessfully]

1 hour ago, PoopnEvryDay said:

There's certainly room for improvement. 

 

I think that largely, many things can be mitigated, fixed, etc purely with UI elements, but we aren't there yet. the unix-like backend is a strength of linux and as such, over the years developers have either been a little out of touch with the novice who would rather do things with GUI elements or dragged their feet because for them the terminal is much easier and robust. 

 

When designing UI elements in 'easy to use' distros like Pop, developers should cater to the newbie audience. Falling back on the terminal shouldn't be a requirement, just an option. I fully believe we'll see it improve.

 

For a less buggy experience, maybe stick with Fedora or Ubuntu as they have much larger, paid teams who can likely do better QA than a small niche distro. 

Depending on the distro, it's less likely that they want you to do things from the command line and more likely that the core team just hasn't quite gotten around to fully implement the entire settings menu, due to limited developers and whatnot. I know Linux Mint's Cinnamon hasn't quite implemented every setting that is customizable on GNOME, leaving some missing from the UI, but it gets closer with every release. I think 20.x was the first version to allow changing the refresh rate without using the command line (unless you used Nvidia's X server settings app or something of the sort). IIRC, Pop OS has the same issue. That's the advantage of GNOME. Big distros like Fedora and Ubuntu use it as their default, and GNOME is a very full environment. But that only works for as long as you like GNOME's interface.

[Tea-Sir]

2 hours ago, WkdPaul said:

What Linus did here is on par with what I'm expecting the average gamer to do ; if it doesn't work, Google, try the first result that seems reasonable and plow through.

I have decided to give Linux a try, so my Laptop got its Windows install yeeted and is now running Mint. I had some apps I wanted, and yup, Google pointet me to CLI solutions. And did I copy them, execute them without reading any of the warnings. Yes. Did anything break. Nope, cause warnings is just a part of OS'es today, and they are not always actual warnings. Just little heads-ups. Sometimes, as seen, you should have payed more attention, cause the warnings was serious. But all techies, be honest, isn't that how you learned a lot, when things were new?

 

I picked the most recent solution I could find on the first 2-3 pages of the Google search, and expected the writers of the advice, to know what they were doing, so I didn't have to. Because that is what I expect when arriving on a tech forum. If that is wrong, well that is my lesson then. Some forums are better than others. And figuring that out, is just a part of the learning curve. For any OS btw.

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

If someone can build a PC and install games then I would think they are above the level of an average user and should be able to navagate an OS, and maybe be able to google what to type into a CLI.

I can build PC's in my sleep, I do Windows reinstalls in my actual sleep. I do a bunch of batch scripts to automate some boring and repetative tasks. And yet I don't know a thing about the Linux CLI, I am learning by doing.

Those two skills are very seperate, and I don't think just because you can do one, you can do the other. You need to seperate it.

 

Also, if all people have done is download and install software on windows, and never needed to touched CLI. Trying Linux CLI as the first, it's gonna be a bit of a crash course. And if something that should have been done easily in GUI doesn't work, or they go a little off the beaten path, they will eventually get pointed towards the CLI to do some things.

 

And I get it after a few days on linux, I wish something like apt-get would be on Windows for the mouintain of software I install, just copying a command into CMD and it installs 30+ apps in one unattended go, while I can do other things, that would be fantastic. But apt-get is about the only command I am starting to get comfortable with so far.

Everything else i just copy paste. And I have no idea what I am doing. If it breaks, it breaks, and I get to learn how to fix it, which is how I have learned most of what I know today.

 

And for perspective, I started out in the Win95 days with boot floppys and CLI for formatting and installing Windows, and I learnt that when I was 8-9 years old, by looking over the shoulder of our neighbor. And the Linux CLI is still mostly a mystery for me.

(Fair enough I can't figure out powershell quite yet either, maybe they are just not made for my brain, and that is fine. I also haven't really gone to big efforts yet for powershell, since regular old CMD still does it for my usecases)

And other than the initial setup of my laptop on Linux, I might not need the terminal again anytime soon, so I may not need to know more about the terminal right now. That is what a long term test is for . And if I re-install windows on it, I don't have to dye my hair

[Leslieann]

38 minutes ago, The89Lunder said:

I can build PC's in my sleep, I do Windows reinstalls in my actual sleep. I do a bunch of batch scripts to automate some boring and repetative tasks. And yet I don't know a thing about the Linux CLI, I am learning by doing.

Those two skills are very seperate, and I don't think just because you can do one, you can do the other. You need to seperate it.

This.
People think because they can do Windows they can use any OS, it's just not true.

 

Windows is Windows, Linux is Unix, it's not like going from Windows 7 to Windows 10, or Windows 10 to Windows Server, it's completely different. The same goes for Mac, Haiku, BSD... They are not Windows and the skills do not carry over the way you think they will. You are no longer an expert, in fact just the opposite, you know just enough to be dangerous.

[Tea-Sir]

4 minutes ago, Leslieann said:

This.
People think because they can do Windows they can use any OS, it's just not true.

 

Windows is Windows, Linux is Unix, it's not like going from Windows 7 to Windows 10, or Windows 10 to Windows Server, it's completely different. The same goes for Mac, Haiku, BSD... They are not Windows and the skills do not carry over the way you think they will. You are no longer an expert, in fact just the opposite, you know just enough to be dangerous.

And I partly agree with that.

Some skills and knowledge carry over. Like the basic understanding of a desktop UI and the navigation of it. Depending on usecase, propably some more skills.

Once your apps is installed, using it is not more difficult than Windows, depending on what your use is of course. Surfing and doing e-mail, music etc. is not gonna be way different. It may require you to use some other apps. (These are my findings, YMMV)

 

It is the setting things up and getting things going part that really is entirely different (at least for me). And the only way to learn, is to do, and screw up, so you know what not to do. If you stay away, you will never learn. And as I eluded to in my previous post, I think all techies learned a lot from screwing up, when something was new. Be it an OS, an app or hardware assembly and troubleshoot.

 

So is Linux Windows. Nope. Trying to make it Windows, bad idea, you need some different apps, services and a different mindset.

And I hope this video series will show that. If things doesn't work or is difficult beyond reason, it might not be meant to be, or more time to find alternatives is needed.

Maybe Linux isn't ready to replace the "default" streamer setup? But I didn't keep all my apps and periphals the same when I went Mac in 2013, and I changed my setup again when I went back to PC in 2019. (I am not a streamer, just for clarification, that is NOT my setup or usecase) Mac just had a less steap learning curve. (At least for me, I know people who would give up on computers and go pen and papir, if Mac was the only other option)

 

I get why people want to try something else than Windows. But for some usecases, the grass is just not greener on the other side. Which is why my desktop is not getting Linux. I wouldn't be able to play more than half my games, I use O365 and that is not gonna fly on Linux, though I did get OneDrive up and running. (Hence my trip to the CLI, was fun to try, even though I didn't understand much) and I haven't had time to look for alternatives to all my apps yet. That journey is still ahead of me.

 

It is just my laptop I installed Linux on, which is mostly just a tool for troubleshooting other peoples problems, when I go IT-guy for friends and family (web-search and driver download mostly), and then I use it for some surfing and YT when I kickback in my couch. And for that, Linux can easily do what I need. And it is fun to try. I wanna learn. Simple as that.

[iLikeBananas]

I love this series. I think it could help improve the linux community because of all the constructive feedback. I also like how they point out those flaws inside the linux community we all know exist but couldn't prove. I tried to go all linux sometime ago too and the linux community really isn't very helpful.

[Qub3d]

Okay, memes aside, I'm going to share the thoughts of Rob Landley (author of BusyBox and ToyBox) regarding Linux. This was written as an answer to "why should we try to continue pushing Google to open up Android and not just extend vanilla Linux to Smartphones?", but it touches on points that answer the deeper implied question, "Why isn't any form of Linux a popular desktop OS?"

 

Here is the full text:

Quote

Linux has had almost 2 decades of annual "Linux on the Desktop" pushes that universally failed, and there's a reason for this. Open source development can't do good user interfaces for the same reason Wikipedia can't write a novel with a coherent plot. The limitations of the development model do not allow for this. The old adage "too many cooks spoil the soup" is not a warning about lack of nutrition, it's a warning that aesthetic issues do not survive committees. Peer review does not produce blockbuster movies, hit songs, or masterpiece paintings. It finds scientific facts, not beauty.

 

Any time "shut up and show me the code" is not the correct response to the problem at hand, open source development melts down into one of three distinct failure modes:

 

1) Endless discussion that never results in actual code, because nobody can agree on a single course of action.

2) The project forks itself to death: everybody goes off and codes up their preferred solution, but it's no easier to agree on a single approach after the code exists so the forks never get merged.

3) Delegating the problem to nobody, either by A) separating engine from interface and focusing on the engine in hopes that some glorious day somebody will write an interface worth using, or B) making the interface so configurable that the fact it takes hours to figure out what your options are and still has no sane defaults is now somehow the end user's fault.

http://landley.net/aboriginal/about.html#selfhost (Last question on the page)

 

The point that is central here is this part: aesthetic issues do not survive committees. Peer review does not produce blockbuster movies, hit songs, or masterpiece paintings. It finds scientific facts, not beauty.

The ideal of an opinionated, coherent OS is at-odds with a completely open, democratic development-by-committee. As much as I loathe many of Apple's decisions, Steve Jobs produced a hardware/software ecosystem that fits the way an expensive slipper fits your foot.

[Arika]

1 hour ago, iLikeBananas said:

I love this series. I think it could help improve the linux community because of all the constructive feedback.

Doubt it, we've already seen that only after 1 part, the Linux community has and is already blaming all the problems on Linus. I don't see that getting better the parts that come out.

 

The Linux community is going to go into their precious little terminal and sudo rm all negativity said about Linux. 

[InstantNewt]

48 minutes ago, Qub3d said:

Here is the full text:

http://landley.net/aboriginal/about.html#selfhost (Last question on the page)

 

 

The author is using open source as a crutch for his lack of leadership. Plenty of open source software packages have zero issue deciding on a direction and sticking to it.

[LAwLz]

So far this is exactly what I expected from the video series.

Linus which has like 25 years of experience with Windows, tries to use GNU/Linux (which he has close to 0 experience with) just like if it was Windows, doesn't read any documentation, ignores warnings and so on, fucks up and then all the usual GNU/Linux haters just goes "this is exactly why I hate GNU/Linux!".

 

 

  

26 minutes ago, Arika S said:

Doubt it, we've already seen that only after 1 part, the Linux community has and is already blaming all the problems on Linus. I don't see that getting better the parts that come out.

 

The Linux community is going to go into their precious little terminal and sudo rm all negativity said about Linux. 

But it is mostly Linus' fault.

If I started Windows in safe mode, edited the file permissions for the system32 folder and then deleted it, would you say it was Windows' fault I bricked my computer? If you do things you don't understand and on top of that ignore warnings then you're to blame.

I don't go into the registry and delete random things, because doing that is a bad idea. Linus running commands as root and then ignoring warnings saying "this might fuck your system up" is also a bad idea. 

[Arika]

8 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

started Windows in safe mode, edited the file permissions for the system32 folder and then deleted it

vs

<install steam>

 

In this video's case, it is the fault of both parties, Linus for not understanding the error, but that also partly the point of the video, and who ever is validating the .deb packages before they go into official package manager stores or repositories for the apt install command. If they aren't validated, then that's not really any better in my opinion especially if it can cause something like this. It was broken for 53 minutes across all debian based distros. This isn't like side loading, the .deb didn't come from a random website, it was through official sources. I would blame Microsoft if the same thing happen with an app on the microsoft store, i would blame apple for the same thing on the app store (iOS or MacOS), i would blame google for the same thing on the play store.

[InstantNewt]

1 minute ago, Arika S said:

It was broken for 53 minutes across all debian based distros.

Wait it was really that short and prolific? Holy cow... The fact that Linus just happened to do it at that exact moment is incredible. Seriously a beautiful example of Murphy's law in action.