Why I think Linus has had such a hard time moving to GNU+Linux, My story of moving to Linux, And how I think you should approach switching to Linux

[RedderThanMisty]

Making this quick update because it seems that people are being a little confused and thinking that i'm saying that everyone should use linux.

 

The post is not about that, It's about how Linux is not a substitute for windows, and shouldn't be treated as such, similar to how a boat is not a substitute for a car. Common mistakes people make when they try out linux, and if they already want to switch, then here is how I think they should go about it so that they don't immediately get turned off by the idea.

 

As for the posts saying that they need adobe suite and other windows only programs, then I don't see any reason why keeping a small windows partition to run in dual boot or KVM is a big deal. I do exactly the same to run games with anti-cheat or run software needed for school.

 

If Linux is not for you, then I won't have anything against you for sticking to what you are already happy with.

[Avocado Diaboli]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

We need to define what group of people we are talking about before we make generalizations about whether GNU/Linux is or isn't a proper replacement for Windows.

Isn't that largely a problem that most discussions eventually run into because people like to over-represent their own viewpoint by implying a large percentage of the entire population implicitly agrees with them?

 

And I agree, most people could probably get most of their stuff done with just a browser. I have multiple friends who don't even own a desktop or laptop anymore, because they can get all their business done through their phones, from banking, to insurance, to shopping to whatever else they need to do. Honestly, I'd wager that most people could probably get by on a tablet or phone because of what little use they would actually have for a full desktop experience. 

 

For me personally there are two reasons not to switch to Linux:

1. I too use Adobe's software, AutoCAD, Cubase, Reason and Microsoft Office (heavy reliance on VBA) on a daily basis, some as part of my work. Are there alternatives to those programs that run on Linux? Sure. Am I going to learn them? No. They're not the industry standard, thus there are fewer resources, less interoperability and they're often vastly smaller in scope. Not to mention that a lot of the FOSS alternatives suffer from terrible UX/UI. Maybe FOSS devs either don't want to improve on that front or aren't aware that using their software feels like pulling teeth, but in the end of the day, that's how it feels to me. The only app that I personally have used that I'd say meets my criteria for professional grade software is Blender, and that had to come a long way.
2. I'm too lazy and I honestly don't give a damn what OS I'm running. Call me a Luddite, but I want to get actual work done (read, work that I intend to get done; this isn't intended to diminish people who get their work done on Linux) with the fewest number of roadblocks. And I feel that Windows does exactly that for me, so I'll gladly pay the couple of dollars a Windows license costs and even the subscription for Creative Cloud and Office 365.

[Roswell]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

I am not sure what your point is.

Office 365 can be used in a browser (so GNU/Linux), and a lot of those users are not using Office 365 because they have to. They are using it because it's what they are used to. They could switch to LibreOffice if they wanted, without any issues. That obviously does not apply to all users, but probably a large portion of them.

Hell, a large portion of those 1.2 billion users are probably Android and iOS users, not Windows desktop users.

 

The important section of those 1.2 billion users are the 60 million commercial customers. So roughly 1.2% of users are commercial Office users that would have a hard time switching.

The other portion of Office users are either not using desktops (and instead uses for example iOS or Android) or most likely do not need Office 365 but have it because it came for free with their computer, or they have some perpetual license they bought a long time ago, or so on. In any case, they are most likely not using Office because they have, but rather because they already have it.

 

 

It was just a comparison.

Saying that GNU/Linux can not replace Windows because less than half a percent of users needs Adobe CC makes, to me, about as much sense as saying Windows can not compete with GNU/Linux because it doesn't have a native BIND client.

Not sure what Photoshop has to do with the average Joe's being able to use GNU/Linux or not. The average Joe doesn't run Adobe CC. Likewise, the average Joe doesn't need BIND, so support for that is irrelevant, just like Photoshop support is irrelevant for >99.5% of users.

 

We need to define what group of people we are talking about before we make generalizations about whether GNU/Linux is or isn't a proper replacement for Windows.

If you use rely on Adobe CC and don't want to change then no, GNU/Linux is not a good replacement for Windows.

 

My problem is with people saying "0.5% of users would have a bad time switching to GNU/Linux, so therefore I am going to make a broad and generalized statement about how GNU/Linux can never compete with Windows and Windows is the best!".

 

Unless we start making proper definitions of what we are talking about, which group of people, what are their use cases, etc, then this discussion is just "tribal gorillas throwing poo at each other", and we should try to avoid that.

 

Are we talking about desktop users exclusively or do we include laptops users, maybe even smartphone users that don't even have laptops? 

Are we talking about enterprise users or home users?

Are we talking about some specific group of people like content creators or just broadly the "average user"?

How "computer-savvy" are the users we are talking about?

Are we talking about people who want to keep using the same software they already have or are they willing to change to something else? 

 

These are all important factors that a lot of people have just glossed over so far in this thread. You can't just make a statement like "GNU/Linux can't replace Windows" without definition the group you are talking about, just like I can't say "Windows can't replace Windows" without defining the things mentioned above. 

You’re just making up numbers at this point to support your argument. I’d take your own “citation needed” advice.

 

If you want to live in a fantasy world where businesses and consumers don’t use Windows/Mac exclusive software then by all means, go for it. But unless you have any semblance of data to back it up, it means nothing.

[LAwLz]

3 minutes ago, Roswell said:

If you want to live in a fantasy world where businesses and consumers don’t use Windows/Mac exclusive software then by all means, go for it. But unless you have any semblance of data to back it up, it means nothing.

92.6% of Internet users do not use desktops or laptops. They primarily or exclusively use Android/iOS. 

If you think most people rely on Windows-exclusive software then you are sadly mistaken. Very few people do in the grand scheme of things even use Windows at all, much less has to use it. 

 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/617136/digital-population-worldwide/

 

As we move more and more towards web applications, the number of people who rely on Windows exclusive software will go down even further than it already has. 

Just a couple of days ago Adobe announced that they are making Photoshop available in browsers. It's right now a cut down version, but this is the world we're moving towards. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/barrycollins/2021/10/26/adobe-brings-photoshop-to-the-browser/?sh=3ea024d41e7c

 

[Mark Kaine]

Tbh, Linux is exactly the opposite of what i want from an OS , so nobody should be *switching* its even more outdated than windows from a user friendly/ ui environment/ view. At least windows *tries* to innovate from time to time (last time was Vista, people didn't like it for stupid reasons, or maybe it was 8 with "metro ui"...  im still using Steam metro to this day, its great...!) gotta give em credit for that... 

 

13 hours ago, Radium_Angel said:

nix has its use, servers are great. Desktop? Not so much

 

Basically,  *especially* Linux... its a clusterfuck beyond any hope for desktop... and the bad part is, its on purpose, "command line gatekeeping" no thanks... i rather click my way through windows, the lesser evil of the two imho ~

 

2 hours ago, Radium_Angel said:

It's a shame too, but as someone upsteam mentioned, it's a perpetual Catch-22.

The Linux world needs some big company, Quicken, AutoDesk, Adobe, etc to take that critical first step and show it to be a viable platform to code for, won't ever happen of course, but it's a nice dream. 

I agree, but this is just not happening as long LINUX follows the " if you dont know how to use command line you're stupid mantra" (protip: most people don't *want* to use command line, so calling them stupid will only alienate them further) ... the big companies know this, laugh , and continue to not support it.

 

 

 

[Kid.Lazer]

16 hours ago, RedderThanMisty said:

The first time that I tried moving to Linux was in 2015 when I got frustrated of the 'activate windows' watermark

Can we all just take a moment to appreciate that OP's entire story stems from not wanting to pay for a not-free operating system?

[tkitch]

4 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I am not sure what your point is.

Office 365 can be used in a browser (so GNU/Linux),

Properly installed Office 365 is sooo much better to use than O365 online.

 

We have both as options here at work, and we 100% have locally installed copies, because it's just better.

 

Will I use online in a pinch if I need to?  Sure.  It works okay for fixing something I need to, but local copies are waaay better than browser based office. 

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, tkitch said:

Properly installed Office 365 is sooo much better to use than O365 online.

 

We have both as options here at work, and we 100% have locally installed copies, because it's just better.

 

Will I use online in a pinch if I need to?  Sure.  It works okay for fixing something I need to, but local copies are waaay better than browser based office. 

I agree with that, but the argument that was made was that 1.2 billion users relies on Office and have to use it on Windows or MacOS.

I mean, there are only 1.3 billion devices running Windows 10. So it's kind of ridiculous to assume 1.2 billion out of those are:

1) Using Office.

2) Need specifically MS Office.

3) Would not be satisficed with the web version.

 

 

That 1.2 billion number includes Android users, iOS users web users, and so on. It is not an accurate number to gauge how many are being vendor locked-in to Windows.

I mean, the same article even states that the Office mobile app has been downloaded 340 million times.

So there were 60 million enterprise users (the ones I would say might actually need MS Office specifically).

Then there were 340 million Office Mobile users who used the cut down MS Office app which is just the web version (not counting downloads of for example Word, Excel, PowerPoint, OneDrive, etc).

 

It's pretty safe to say that we can completely disregard that 1.2 billion number if we are talking about how many people need to run Windows because of Office. The 1.2 billion number doesn't mean much. That 60 million number however is far more relevant, because that indicates how many users are in an enterprise environment where MS Office specific features might be wanted and they are more likely to run the fully fledged versions rather than the web versions (which, as I said, have hundreds of millions of users just from the phone app alone).

60 million is no small number. It's about 6 times more people than the entire country I live in. However, 60 million is a very small fraction of the total computer users in the world, which sits at around 4660 million users.

 

 

Sure, the lack of Office might make GNU/Linux a non-alternative for 60 million users. But saying that "60 million users are stuck with MS Office so therefore these other 4600 million users should not and could not switch to GNU/Linux" is silly. It makes no sense. 

[Emzijs]

IMO Linux is great for servers. I'm going through that right now with my Raspberry Pi. I am setting up a simple NAS server with OMV and Docker with few Docker images such as Plex and others. You set it up with a hard drive, and let it live and it's gonna do great. On desktops, it's a whole other story. I've hopped between distros and really tried to get into them and use them daily but I just can't because it's not very intuitive for a regular person. I can get around things because I work at IT and my hobby is to tinker with stuff, but for a regular Joe or Jill it's not a great experience, espscially if they want to print a document or make an excel sheet. 

[Xenoprimate]

Ever since I was a geeky nerd teenager (15 years ago), certain people in the tech world have always been trying to convince me that Linux desktop is totally better than Windows.

 

And every time I've tried it, I've had exactly the kind of problems Linus talks about.

 

Honestly, I feel like that old adage "Free software is only free if you don't value your time" is very true here. I'm sure Linux *could* be better than Windows, if you're willing to learn everything about it and put a lot of effort in... But I feel that's only in the same way that a kitcar *could* eventually be better than a car you buy off the forecourt- it's only true if you're willing to put in a lot of time and constant maintenance; whereas most of us just want a reliable car, even if that means we only get to pick from three paint colours and maybe have no choice but to take it to a mechanic when something goes wrong.

 

I feel like that was true in the noughties and it's still true today. It's been "Year of the Linux Desktop" for two decades now.

 

What worries me is that Linus and co might actually go a bit easy on Linux in their review because they're afraid of upsetting their more hardcore audience. But frankly, I feel like the pro-Linux crowd gets almost all of the visibility online these days and there needs to be an honest, frank, review here that actually points out how Linux on the desktop is still pretty bad in a lot of places...

 

Because that's the only way we get real competition rather than something that will continue to be a niche for nerds for another 20 years.

[mrchow19910319]

On 11/1/2021 at 5:58 AM, Arika S said:

I love how all of these posts posts follow the same formula 

1. Linux is great
2. All the problems are Linus' fault
3. Linux isn't windows
4. Open source is better
5. Linux is better even though I had all these stupid issues.

It just feels like a bunch of people running between Linus and Linux with shields raised.

 

I run Linux on my laptop and my nas (for a few months now) and I can say: Linux is frustrating, it's community is annoying and full of elitism, every complaint Linus has made I can related to.

 

I don't know if Linux users want more people to use Linux so it becomes more popular, or if they want want to forever be the gatekeepers of their promised land. 

I think Linus did give a pretty objective summary about how he feels about Linux, it is far from perfect, and it iis just as bad as windows. 

And I agree with him  LOL.

 

I use Ubuntu for web development related tasks and it had been a pretty smooth ride. But when it comes to certain stuff, like gaming or using Photoshop etc (i know there are open source equvilants software out there) I just go back to windows...

[LAwLz]

6 hours ago, Xenoprimate said:

Honestly, I feel like that old adage "Free software is only free if you don't value your time" is very true here

See:  

On 10/31/2021 at 11:07 PM, LAwLz said:

 

 

 

 

Edit:

Besides, I find that the whole "Linux is free if you don't value your time" argument implies that Windows doesn't have any issues that wastes your time, which it most certainly does. How many times have you heard "reinstall Windows"? 

I just searched for topics about reinstalling Windows and I got 102 results on this forum alone, from the last week. Wanna talk about wasting time? Reinstalling your OS because it's damn near impossible to fix when something breaks is a pretty big waste of time if you ask me. 

 

Spoiler

Someone having problems with their GPU? These are the advice he got:  

Quote

reinstall windows

Quote

Reinstall windows.

Sometimes you have to just deal with it and not say "oh i can't afford to do it".  Making excuses doesn't solve problems.  sometimes you have to just say "Screw it, I'm screwed.  Gotta deal with it."  Your life isn't going to end by reinstalling windows.  You do have a roof over your head and a car or other vehicle, right?  Then you have the basics you need covered.

Priorities, man.

 

I had to reinstall windows after a bizarre somewhat failed upgrade from 10 to 11 caused repeated spam nonstop "Firewall" errors in event viewer in windows 11, which I spent far too much time trying to fix.

 

Let me tell you a little thing.

I spent *MORE* time trying to fix the problem than I did simply reinstalling windows with a CLEAN install and reinstalling all my apps!

  

 

Someone getting an error that Windows has stopped one of their devices?  

 

Quote

Reset this pc from windows yes it reinstalls windows but takes away any files that may cause the issue that you are having.

Quote

(1) Wipe Windows and start fresh. That's a pain as you have to re-install all your stuff

 

 

 

Someone not getting a Windows update?

Quote

Have you done anything to solve the issue like reinstalling the latest version of windows

 

 

Someone is having performance issues on their PC?

Quote

What CPU and resolution monitor are you using? If you can't figure it out reinstall windows and start fresh

  

Someone can't boot into Windows?  

Quote

Yes, I had the same. Had to delete all partitions on that disk and do a full reinstall to make it work.

 

 

Windows failing to activate?  

Quote

actually i tried resetting windows...but that did not help in any way

 

One of my friend told  that reinstalling windows on an OEM again would automatically reactivate it again...i just wanted to verify that

 

 

Something in Windows is eating up all the RAM?  

Quote

Can you sort the tasks by memory usage? that will let you know what's using everything, or if nothing is, it's probably time to do a Windows reinstall

 

Someone's CPU is stuck running at 100% at all times?  

Quote

I know you said you did it already but if this was my PC, i'd be making a fresh Win11 (Win 10 if that's your thing) USB installer using a USB stick and wiping that drive with a clean install. As soon as I booted back up into a fresh desktop i'd check task manager.

 

I'm certain this is something with the OS until I can see otherwise.

 

I also think it's a bit hypocritical since it's very often the same people talking about how "GNU/Linux wastes your time" that also identify themselves as gamers. So gaming isn't a waste of time, but learning about OSes is? What about watching a LTT video where he buys a bunch of stuff from IKEA, unboxes it and puts it together in his 10 billionth video about putting PC components together? That's not a waste of time?

In the end, the entire argument boils down to "my hobby is not a waste of time but other peoples' hobbies are", which is a stupid argument.

[jre84]

linux has been around forever, why do people that use linux want everyone to use it..its like you can use 100 programs but like 10 000 000 000 programs you can't why the heck would anyone switch..

 

also i would like too add I have had my laptop for over a year and installed windows once, it runs good and i'm constantly installing programs/games on my 5tb-5tb-4tb hdds

[Arika]

3 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Besides, I find that the whole "Linux is free if you don't value your time" argument implies that Windows doesn't have any issues that wastes your time, which it most certainly does.

Windows does waste your time, but it certainly feels like Linux wastes more time for stupid little things that really should be basic functionality.

 

my experience with my laptop that really shouldn't HAVE to be done by anyone:

 

Multiple days and multiple repositories to get my trackpad to a point that it feels like a trackpad (CLI)

 

1. install xorg synaptics package
2. create a .conf in xorg.conf.d to allow me to change things i otherwise couldn't
3. change parameters in xinput to

• stop the stepped "grid-like" movement
• make the scroll speed usable
• make acceleration usable
• turn on natural scrolling (because the GUI toggle did nothing)

      4. Find another package to make palm rejection while typing actually work because the GUI was blanked out.

      5. add a random thing in CLI to have pixel-perfect scrolling in firefox, otherwise it's stepped like a mouse wheel

 

Screen tearing just moving windows around and scrolling (CLI) ... (had to do the same thing on my HTPC, why this isn't default i have no f'ing idea)

1. Create a .conf in xorg.conf.d and paste random code i found online to force vsync at all time
2. this breaks the spectacle screenshot tool as it seems to screenshot cached or old screen states, but it works if i disable it. So i get to deal with either massive screen tearing or annoying screenshot handling

Mounting network shares (CLI)

• sometimes just absolutely refuses to auto mount network shares from my NAS on start up, 30% of the time it works regardless of what i do in fstab.

 

 

So yes, while "reinstall windows" does waste your time, I can install windows and be fully operational within 2 hours with all the software i need. if i had to do the same on Linux, i have no idea how long it would take because i'd have to google search all the problems again and hope i find the pages that i used last time.

It is frustrating how simple things like the above don't just work or the fact that it requires user intervention at all to work correctly.

Blame me, blame my hardware, blame my distro, or what ever, but this is why I don't ever see Linux taking over any significant market share. People would much sooner "put up" with windows than have to fuck around with bullshit like this in Linux.

 

All of this had to be done in terminal, so for all those people that say "you can use linux without the terminal" Bullshit, if you want your stuff to function like it SHOULD, not just half-semi-kind-of-working-compromises, you will be doing shit in the CLI.

[LAwLz]

10 minutes ago, Arika S said:

Windows does waste your time, but it certainly feels like Linux wastes more time for stupid little things that really should be basic functionality.

I think that has to do with you being used to having your time wasted on Windows, and being more familiar with it.

You have already wasted time fixing issues on Windows before, so now when you encounter similar issues you roughly know how to solve it. Since you most likely have very little experience with GNU/Linux, you have to start from scratch.

 

 

12 minutes ago, Arika S said:

my experience with my laptop that really should HAVE to be done by anyone:

-snip-

I think that's an unfair comparison if we are going to generalize Windows vs GNU/Linux. In your particular case, you had hardware compatibility issues on GNU/Linux but not on Windows. Of course something will be easier if it's supported out of the box on one OS but not the other. But that's not inherent to Windows vs GNU/Linux.

Installing Windows on unsupported hardware is a pain in the ass too. Ever had issues with things like trackpads or obscure peripherals on Windows where Windows update doesn't manage to fetch drivers or whatever other piece of software you need? It quickly turns into horrible and tedious troubleshooting, looking through old forum posts in the hopes that something works, just like on GNU/Linux.

 

Now, the likelihood of some trackpad or whatever not being compatible out of the box may be higher on GNU/Linux than on Windows, but let's not pretend like your experience is the only experience someone will ever have on GNU/Linux, or that Windows always works perfectly after a reinstall on any hardware.

[Mihle]

23 hours ago, RedderThanMisty said:

 

As for the posts saying that they need adobe suite and other windows only programs, then I don't see any reason why keeping a small windows partition to run in dual boot or KVM is a big deal. I do exactly the same to run games with anti-cheat or run software needed for school.

 

If Linux is not for you, then I won't have anything against you for sticking to what you are already happy with.

Linux is not for me.

 

I don't want to have two OSes and spend time switching every time so have to use spesific programs (I don't use Adobe), even if it's just 20 sec or whatever. If two OSes exist, and one can run everything I use it for without problems (problems as in you can make it work but it has more bugs or lot more tweaking to make it work) while the other one can't, I will obviously choose the one that can, and that is Windows.

 

3 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Edit:

Besides, I find that the whole "Linux is free if you don't value your time" argument implies that Windows doesn't have any issues that wastes your time, which it most certainly does. How many times have you heard "reinstall Windows"? 

I just searched for topics about reinstalling Windows and I got 102 results on this forum alone, from the last week. Wanna talk about wasting time? Reinstalling your OS because it's damn near impossible to fix when something breaks is a pretty big waste of time if you ask me. 

I personally haven't had problems with windows that require re installation of windows, and the problems that require some tweaking or whatever on Driver or OS have been like 3 times or so over 8 years or whatever(one reinstall because new computer tho), and two of them was clean drivers and re install, all done via GUI.

 

Less than last time I tried to use Linux, and less than what Linus/Luke seem to have used on things until now. (Will wait for videos tho)

3 hours ago, LAwLz said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Someone having problems with their GPU? These are the advice he got:  

  

 

Someone getting an error that Windows has stopped one of their devices?  

 

 

 

 

Someone not getting a Windows update?

 

 

Someone is having performance issues on their PC?

  

Someone can't boot into Windows?  

 

 

Windows failing to activate?  

 

 

Something in Windows is eating up all the RAM?  

 

Someone's CPU is stuck running at 100% at all times?  

 

I also think it's a bit hypocritical since it's very often the same people talking about how "GNU/Linux wastes your time" that also identify themselves as gamers. So gaming isn't a waste of time, but learning about OSes is? What about watching a LTT video where he buys a bunch of stuff from IKEA, unboxes it and puts it together in his 10 billionth video about putting PC components together? That's not a waste of time?

In the end, the entire argument boils down to "my hobby is not a waste of time but other peoples' hobbies are", which is a stupid argument.

Gaming is more fun than learning things you shouldn't have to learn because an OS have issues/harder to get stuff working good. Same with building a PC, it's more fun than dealing with OS issues. With IKEA it's in some cases the only option for exactly what you want, or usually cheaper, than other furniture alternatives that takes less time. Linux might be cheaper than Windows but it's not really much in the grand scheme of things.

 

At least that is how it is with me, of you like tweaking things with OS or other stuff to get stuff running, fine the way you want it, I don't care, I won't stop you, but I won't do it.

[Arika]

26 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

but let's not pretend like your experience is the only experience someone will ever have on GNU/Linux, or that Windows always works perfectly after a reinstall on any hardware.

No, but i would say my experience would certainly be in the majority of people that move over to Linux, you even said it yourself.

 

Quote

Now, the likelihood of some trackpad or whatever not being compatible out of the box may be higher on GNU/Linux than on Windows,

 

 

Quote

Ever had issues with things like trackpads or obscure peripherals on Windows where Windows update doesn't manage to fetch drivers or whatever other piece of software you need? It quickly turns into horrible and tedious troubleshooting, looking through old forum posts in the hopes that something works, just like on GNU/Linux.

except a trackpad, the thing that every laptop has, is not an obscure peripheral. it literally felt like i was building my own driver for it because the stock "driver" or what ever you want to call it on linux was a terrible experience It's not even like my laptop is an obscure brand, it's a thinkpad, you can even chose for it to COME with ubuntu.

If it was some random MIDI/music creation peripheral or even something like my TrackIR i would understand it...but not something as basic as a trackpad, and if that can't even work right without having to spend hours and hours finding people with similar problems' posts, then yeah, i would think that the more and more people that move over, the more and more people are going to find they lack basic functionality that they would otherwise expect from one thing or another, and have every right to expect that it should "just work".

Because like it or not, people moving over from Windows to Linux ARE going to compare it to Windows, and if it provides a very clear, and i'm my case, substantially, worse experience than what they are used to with Windows, then they are going to complain. So i think it is very appropriate to compare it to Windows for as long as people are touting it as a replacement/alternative to Windows

 

 

Hell, the screen tearing was across 3 computers on 2 different distros, so it's not even like it was just 1 particular incompatibility.

 

Is windows perfect? abso-fucking-lutely not, but it sure as hell gives a better experience to the majority of people. basically i see it this way:

 

Windows

• Works for the majority of regular users
• Has issues with power users who like to change things and get deep into the OS

Linux

• Works for the majority of power users who like to change things and get deep into the OS
• Has issues for the majority of regular users

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Since you most likely have very little experience with GNU/Linux, you have to start from scratch.

that may be the case, but i also don't think it's unfair to ask that screen tearing shouldn't exist without having to go in and specifically create system config files to fix it immediately after installation of the OS.

[Mihle]

Not saying windows is perfect, it definitely isn't. Windows colour management sucks, scaling is shit, especially with older programs, I think Linux do the last of those two things better than Windows but not sure about the first.

To mention some.

[WolframaticAlpha]

On 11/1/2021 at 3:52 PM, LAwLz said:

-snip-

I would like to add one thing. Most of the people on PC do have a special piece of software they use. Most of the extremely general internet joes are on their phones and ipads. So, all these softwares might be actually useful for a larger percentage. Also, out of these softwares, a large percentage is being pirated. 

[LAwLz]

15 minutes ago, Arika S said:

No, but i would say my experience would certainly be in the majority of people that move over to Linux, you even said it yourself.

[Citation Needed]

 

 

15 minutes ago, Arika S said:

except a trackpad, the thing that every laptop has, is not an obscure peripheral.

I never said it was. I said "trackpad OR obscure" not "obscure like a trackpad".

 

 

18 minutes ago, Arika S said:

it literally felt like i was building my own driver for it because the stock "driver" or what ever you want to call it on linux was a terrible experience It's not even like my laptop is an obscure brand, it's a thinkpad, you can even chose for it to COME with ubuntu.

Not sure what to tell you other than, tough luck. Works on my machine.

The trackpad on my mom's laptop didn't work when I formatted that, so I had to get the drivers from the OEM website and run them in compatibility mode. Things quickly become a mess when your hardware isn't supported by the OS. Can happen on any laptop. On that particular laptop Ubuntu actually worked straight out of the box, so "your mileage may vary" most certainly applies.

 

1 hour ago, Arika S said:

Is windows perfect? abso-fucking-lutely not, but it sure as hell gives a better experience to the majority of people.

[Citation Needed]

Who do you include in the "majority of people"? Like I have said at a few points in this thread, the majority of people just use their browser. Hell, most people right now are buying Macs or Chromebooks, not Windows computers.

I expect that in ~10 years, we will have people saying similar things you are saying right now, but about Windows.

"People are going to compare Windows to ChromeOS, and ChromeOS is just much more simple. No need to mess with drivers, or install programs or any of that nerd stuff. It just works".

 

 

Also, I would argue that most people have issues with Windows. Hell, a lot of people struggle with iPhones even. A large portion of users will probably not even be able to answer the question "which version of Windows do you use". 

In 2015 in Sweden, 1 in 6 people had been infected with a computer virus in the last 12 months. 

Assuming that number is still correct, at least 1 in 6 people have had serious issues with Windows because of viruses. That's not including things just breaking which is also pretty common.

 

 

But we have even more up to date data for Windows.

50% of Windows 10 users reported that they have had issues with their PC.

16% of Windows 10 users have had issues with peripherals suddenly breaking (from for example an update).

21% ran into issues where programs would no longer work after an update.

Some people even had their computers stop working completely because of software issues, and out of those 46% had to pay someone to fix it.

 

If you really think that Windows works well for the majority of regular people then you are sadly mistaken. It barely works at all for the majority of people, let along works well.

[Arika]

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

(first) [Citation Needed]

can't give a citation, because i meant it more in the future tense, Linux is barely known by most people, W11 might be the thing that drives anything close to a substantial amount people towards it, so my experience or some equivalent is likely to be what most people will experience when they switch over, it's just the nature of Linux being so disjointed and broken between different distros with different support models and repositories.

So maybe my issues stem from my chosen distro, but then it's not exactly a great experience to download multiple .ISOs, keep installing different distros until you find the one that just works out of the box on your particular set of hardware.

To quote you from a previous thread

 

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

I never said it was. I said "trackpad OR obscure" not "obscure like a trackpad".

except that you put them together in the same sentence, i've never had a trackpad not work on any device i've had, even after a fresh install of windows because i never keep the OEM OS.

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Who do you include in the "majority of people"?

literally the wording of what i said. the majority of people using windows 10 would have a better experience using windows 10 than they would using Linux, whether that be because of familiarity, current use case or supported hardware. The people that complain about windows updates breaking things, or weird issues that crop up are the ones that shout the loudest, the people that have no issues, or tiny things that they barely notice are not going to post about it on the internet.

in a vacuum, who knows, we'd have to get together a whole bunch of people who have never used a computer before, start half of them on Linux and the other half on Windows and then at some point, get them to try the other one and see what they say about the one they haven't used before. Maybe my experience would be different if i started on linux before windows, but that also doesn't make my current experience invalid.

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Hell, most people right now are buying Macs or Chromebooks, not Windows computers.

As they should and have every right to. I'm not saying windows is the superior OS in every possible way. I'm saying it's in a better state for "most people" (literally) than Linux is, again whether that be because of the above or the monolithic support they have for a massive range of hardware. for people that only use a browser, yes they should go a chromebook, which is what i generally suggest to people anyway.

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

"People are going to compare Windows to ChromeOS, and ChromeOS is just much more simple. No need to mess with drivers, or install programs or any of that nerd stuff. It just works".

Good. things do need to be more simple. But right NOW, which is what i'm talking about, Windows is more simple than Linux given my experience with it, it's more likely to "just work" for the majority of "normal" hardware. Whether this be because of familiarity, but trying to look objectively, downloading a driver off a website and double clicking the .exe to install sure is simpler than opening up a terminal and typing sudo apt install xxxxx/sudo pacman -S xxxxx and watching a whole bunch of alien language flying by until it stops and hoping what you just did works.

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Also, I would argue that most people have issues with Windows. Hell, a lot of people struggle with iPhones even.

depends on what you define as an "issue" with windows

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

But we have even more up to date data for Windows.

50% of Windows 10 users reported that they have had issues with their PC.

16% of Windows 10 users have had issues with peripherals suddenly breaking (from for example an update).

21% ran into issues where programs would no longer work after an update.

Some people even had their computers stop working completely because of software issues, and out of those 46% had to pay someone to fix it.

Quote

This conclusion comes from a survey of 1,100 members

 

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

If you really think that Windows works well for the majority of regular people then you are sadly mistaken. It barely works at all for the majority of people, let along works well.

Not sure what to tell you other than, tough luck. Works on my machines. Never had an update break anything, never had anything just stop working, never had a virus, never had programs stop working (but i have on linux). so either i'm the luckiest person in the world, or you can only hear those that are crying out.

 

If i had to rank the desktop OSs in terms of usability for a "normal person", one that just likes to use their browser if you desire that classification to be there, it would be:

 

1. ChromeOS
2. MacOS
3. Windows ##
4. Linux

this is assuming a person has just bought their computer and is tech-illiterate and has no outside help to get things set up.

 

Let's say it's time to update, i'm only going to use Windows and Linux since i haven't used ChromeOS or MacOS (in a personal sense). this is what both my machines say on the main update screen

 

Windows:

Feature update to Windows 10, Version 21H1

The next version of Windows is available with new features and security improvements. When you're ready for the update, select "Download and install."

 

 

Linux:

System updates

libjavascriptcoregtk-4.0-18

-2.32-4.0ubuntu0.21.04.1 -> 2.34.1-0ubuntu0.21.04.1

 

libwebkit2gtk-4.0-37

-2.32.4-0ubuntu0.21.04.1 -> 2.34.1-0ubunutu0.21.04.1

 

pop-launcher

1.0.3~1635692914`21.04~170c6bb

 

Update All

 

 

 

Which one is simpler and more user friendly?

 

Linux may be more stable and reliable, but it's not user friendly by any stretch of the imagination and if you have incompatibilities with anything, to the CLI you go and pasting things that you don't really understand which i would say is more dangerous than an installation wizard in Windows.

 

 

 

But it seems like i'm not allowed to air out my frustrations with Linux without people saying "but windows is bad too" (it's not the first time and sure won't be the last). yeah it is, every OS sucks in some way, but that doesn't make Linux better.

You're allowed to have your issues with windows, I'm allowed to have my issues with Linux and we're both allowed to hate our respective OSs at the same time without either person being wrong. (i am still using it despite all my frustrations)

 

EDIT:

To quote you from a previous thread

"I'm not asking for perfection. I am asking for things to not be shit."

[Spindel]

2022 is the year of Linux desktop, I promise for real this time around!

 

Jokes aside: I ran linux full time for a couple of years 15 years ago. Yeah it worked great it wasn't windows but in the end MacOS is much better and to a large degree what linux would have been if "the year of linux desktop" desktop would have happened. 

 

The biggest chance Linux had to come close to "the year of linux desktop" was the XP to Vista transition and the only thing that managed was to push some people to Mac. 

 

Linux needs a company giving full support for it (all hardware works out of the box with the distro the computer comes with etc) and of course some software that is usable and as good or better than the competition to succeed on a large scale. If that happens it will basically be a linux version of Mac. 

 

On the desktop linux will forever be niche as it is to day which is exactly as it was when I was a linux user.

 

I still use Linux, but not as a desktop but in embedded systems like my router or my old router flashed to DD-WRT (serves as an WiFi AP) or my NAS (in my case a Synology box, please spare me the hate for using Synology). 

 

Linux is great, just not on the desktop. 

 

If anything I would like to see Linus daily drive MacOS for 2-3 months. 

[tkitch]

2 hours ago, Arika S said:

literally the wording of what i said. the majority of people using windows 10 would have a better experience using windows 10 than they would using Linux, whether that be because of familiarity, current use case or supported hardware. The people that complain about windows updates breaking things, or weird issues that crop up are the ones that shout the loudest, the people that have no issues, or tiny things that they barely notice are not going to post about it on the internet.

in a vacuum, who knows, we'd have to get together a whole bunch of people who have never used a computer before, start half of them on Linux and the other half on Windows and then at some point, get them to try the other one and see what they say about the one they haven't used before. Maybe my experience would be different if i started on linux before windows, but that also doesn't make my current experience invalid.

 

......

 

Good. things do need to be more simple. But right NOW, which is what i'm talking about, Windows is more simple than Linux given my experience with it, it's more likely to "just work" for the majority of "normal" hardware. Whether this be because of familiarity, but trying to look objectively, downloading a driver off a website and double clicking the .exe to install sure is simpler than opening up a terminal and typing sudo apt install xxxxx/sudo pacman -S xxxxx and watching a whole bunch of alien language flying by until it stops and hoping what you just did works.

 

Yes, windows is more simple to get running than Linux.  Full stop.

 

If I grab a stock 10th gen, or Ryzen system, throw in a non-esoteric GPU and install an up to date copy of windows 10?

 

After Windows Update, and a couple reboots?  It's ready to play 3d Games or anything else you want to do.  Can I click a couple buttons in Linux and get the same result?  Not so much.

 

Now, will the windows run as smoothly / most optomized as possible?  Of course not, the drivers off Windows Update are ususally old as hell, and not very good.  BUT THEY WORK basically out of the box.  I don't need a CLI, or know what packages to find or anything else.

 

And for 98% of the computer using world?  They don't want to know what they have to find to make shit work.  They want it to work with little to no interaction on their part.

[Alan G]

17 minutes ago, tkitch said:

And for 98% of the computer using world?  They don't want to know what they have to find to make shit work.  They want it to work with little to no interaction on their part.

Right you are!!!  I can comment directly about my wife's computer use.  She had a huge panic attack when I told her she would have to move on from Windows 7 to Windows 10 because 7 was not going to be supported by Microsoft any longer.  She is a typical user, relying mostly on Word and a little bit of Excel for her work.  I had to install a webcam and configure Zoom for her last year once the pandemic hit full force and in person meetings were cancelled.  For her, tech support is nothing more than a call to me downstairs, "something is wrong with my computer, come up here and fix it!"  This is the typical user, and one that is often found in office environments.  They want stuff to work, period. 

 

Comments here on LTT are not terribly useful as most of us are sophisticated users and many, if not all, have built our own workstations.  Yes, we can set up Linux systems and install productivity software.  We can figure out how to trouble shoot things to get them to work.  For users such as my wife, this is a non-starter.  I would not even want to ask her if she knows what a the 'command line' is.

[igormp]

36 minutes ago, tkitch said:

If I grab a stock 10th gen, or Ryzen system, throw in a non-esoteric GPU and install an up to date copy of windows 10?

 

After Windows Update, and a couple reboots?  It's ready to play 3d Games or anything else you want to do.  Can I click a couple buttons in Linux and get the same result?  Not so much.

 

Now, will the windows run as smoothly / most optomized as possible?  Of course not, the drivers off Windows Update are ususally old as hell, and not very good.  BUT THEY WORK basically out of the box.  I don't need a CLI, or know what packages to find or anything else.

Even though I'm against advocating linux for most users (you could even say I'm gatekeeping), you chose an awful example.

 

Yes, if you grab a stock 10th or Ryzen CPU and any modern GPU it'll work out of the box no issues. Specially if you go with an AMD GPU, in which case you won't even need to install any driver at all (unlike nvidia, since the bundled driver for it is really basic, or any GPU on windows), since those are already included in the kernel, so you get to to anything 3d smoothly right away.