Apple is (going to) scan your Apple devices

[BondiBlue]

Why do click-bait headlines need to be a thing here? They're not doing it yet, but the title of this post says that they are doing it. 

[ARikozuM]

I don't care what reasons you have for trying this, but no. There are legal ways to get information from private property and this is only trying to go around warrantless searches by saying that a "private entity" is doing it. The Constitution, at least in the United States, should apply to everyone, public and private. 

[YellowJersey]

"If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear." The usual argument for this kind of BS.

 

 It's an unfortunate situation because while the intent seems good, it's so open to abuse that it's questionable whether it should even be tried at all.

[fUnDaMeNtAl_knobhead]

5 minutes ago, BondiBlue said:

Why do click-bait headlines need to be a thing here? They're not doing it yet, but the title of this post says that they are doing it. 

It didn't say now or when.

[Bombastinator]

7 minutes ago, SlidewaysZ said:

Does anyone realize how many times the "think of the children" excuse is used to chip away at our security? Look I'm all for cracking down on abuse however for a company so privacy focused at least pretends to be they sure are creating a huge privacy risk. There just has to be a more secure and privacy focused way to help.

 

Maybe. Stuff is short on details.  Need more to make a determination.  Possible of course.

[sub68]

7 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

There are legal ways to get information from private property and this is only trying to go around warrantless searches by saying that a "private entity" is doing it.

Apple is known for not providing info and vague things.

Like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI–Apple_encryption_dispute

[Bombastinator]

7 minutes ago, YellowJersey said:

"If you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear." The usual argument for this kind of BS.

 

 It's an unfortunate situation because while the intent seems good, it's so open to abuse that it's questionable whether it should even be tried at all.

That is the big question: how open is this to abuse? We don’t know how much.  There have been stuff presented in this thread about how abuse could be avoided.  Too many details could allow pedos to use these limits to avoid the issue though.  Some details could be revealed.  For example,  if they’re scanning for known stuff only by checksum or something simply adding a bit could change the checksum thus making it less effective. They could state they are scanning by checksum but then do something more elaborate but still limited, which could still catch people doing this though. This has none though which makes it seem like a potential problem.  I don’t know if that’s simply omission or what is actually going on though.

 

The scary bit is if they record  data for things besides kiddie porn, or if they use use some sort of visual recognition system that creates false positives.

[Blademaster91]

14 minutes ago, BondiBlue said:

Why do click-bait headlines need to be a thing here? They're not doing it yet, but the title of this post says that they are doing it. 

I don't see in the article if Apple is doing it yet, but it's still a bad idea if they aren't yet, sure there could be a way for them to scan devices, but there would need to be a way to opt out, though that would make it pointless. I guess the point is you don't have the amount of privacy you think you do, or no matter how much Apple wants to market privacy.

22 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

There’s a name for anime pornoraphy. Hentai is the animated stuff but there’s a different one for still images.

Eroge? Which translates to "erotic game" usually still images, sometimes animated scenes, storing hentai image on a phone would be a concern with Apple wanting to scan phones, I wouldn't trust an AI system to know the difference, and definitely wouldn't want someone going through pictures and flagging things.

[Bombastinator]

4 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

I don't see in the article if Apple is doing it yet, but it's still a bad idea if they aren't yet, sure there could be a way for them to scan devices, but there would need to be a way to opt out, though that would make it pointless. I guess the point is you don't have the amount of privacy you think you do, or no matter how much Apple wants to market privacy.

Eroge? Which translates to "erotic game" usually still images, sometimes animated scenes, storing hentai image on a phone would be a concern with Apple wanting to scan phones, I wouldn't trust an AI system to know the difference, and definitely wouldn't want someone going through pictures and flagging things.

I don’t remember.  I had a roommate who was into it many many years ago.  Didn’t bother to remember. Eroga doesn’t sound right. There’s a lot of genres of anime.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Bombastinator

[Bombastinator]

8 minutes ago, sub68 said:

Apple is known for not providing info and vague things.

Like this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI–Apple_encryption_dispute

They have to provide it to someone though even if it’s not the public.  The problem I think is data mining wasn’t made illegal though I personally think it should have been many years ago.  If it was this wouldn’t even be a thing.

[BondiBlue]

13 minutes ago, linux fanboy said:

It didn't say now or when.

Yes, it did. "Apple is scanning your devices" implies that they are, in fact, already scanning devices, and that's incorrect. Thank you for updating the title. 

[sub68]

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

e problem I think is data mining wasn’t made illegal though I personally think it should have been many years ago.

I agree

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

They have to provide it to someone though even if it’s not the public.

Alot of things are bad if it goes out of company

 

[Bombastinator]

6 minutes ago, sub68 said:

I agree

Alot of things are bad if it goes out of company

 

Many things that are bad if it goes out of company were bad even if it stays in company though.  There are many exceptions .  The problem today is that with all the hacks and whatnot it’s hard to be assured that data even stays in company.

[krakkpott]

I don't like where this is going.  This essentially means Apple has some (or even full) control over your personal data on your personal iPhone.

 

It could also paint the narrative of "Android users are criminals because they don't get scanned for child abuse images".

[Jtalk4456]

52 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Need and want are different things though.  I didn’t NEED fashionable clothes in school.  The stuff I got would keep me warm.  The ostracism I received for such didn’t help much though.  School is weird that way.

need and want ARE different things sure, and as a parent, I'm more focused on what my kids NEED because that's more important. 

[Bombastinator]

3 minutes ago, krakkpott said:

I don't like where this is going.  This essentially means Apple has some (or even full) control over your personal data on your personal iPhone.

 

It could also paint the narrative of "Android users are criminals because they don't get scanned for child abuse images".

Except android users do I think.  And for a lot of other things too.  The point about full control is well made though.  I think that is true of all cellphones and has been true for some time.  I’m remembering executives who refused to use smartphones at all. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Bombastinator

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

need and want ARE different things sure, and as a parent, I'm more focused on what my kids NEED because that's more important. 

Kids are not always good judges of what is important.  Parents can miss things too though.  Also there’s the issue of overprotection.  There are such things as harmless mistakes preventing harmful ones later.  

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, James Evens said:

Freedom.

Generally there is the conception of humans being reasonable and not needing 24/7 surveillance and other people making the decisions for them.

 

The largest issue is that these measures are always introduced with child abuse, terrorism, etc. before more making it applicable to everything and everyone.

Always may be strong.  It’s a common problem though to the point that them mentioning of such presents a red flag.

[NotTheFirstDaniel]

If my interpretation of all the press coverage on this is correct, then the people in this thread are wildly exaggerating what Apple is doing here. But correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Apple is not uploading all of your local photos to Apple servers to identify if the picture contains potential child abuse. They are "scanning" iCloud Photos (something that isn't even E2E encrypted) on device by matching hashes from a photo that's about to be uploaded to iCloud Photos to trusted databases that contain probably millions of these hashes of known CSAM. This is not an AI that is going to scan each individual pixel of a photo, it's only comparing hashes (for now at least). The wording that Apple uses makes me believe that this will be for iCloud Photos only So if you don't have iCloud Photos, nothing will change.

 

This is similar to what other companies, like Microsoft, Facebook, and Twitter, have been doing for years. Hell, Google's been doing it, apparently, since 2008.

 

No, this is not an infringement of your "constitutional rights". You signed a license stating you were OK with giving Apple control of the data you upload to iCloud when you signed up for the service. This is the same reason why the FBI can subpoena Apple for iCloud Photos and Backups. It's technically not on "your property" anymore.

 

Now personally, I'm not one to use the "slippery slope" trope, but when Apple comes out and says that this system is going to "grow and evolve", you're forced to wander a bit from reality. I'm not suggesting a "big brother" scenario, but what if they go after other illegal things, such as the possession of pirated content? In my opinion, viewing CSAM is much much more morally wrong than pirating a movie from 20th Century Fox or a music video from Sony Entertainment, huge multi-billion dollar companies who would never even notice 1-5% of their viewers pirating content.

 

And with all of this said, at the end of the day, this hurts their privacy stance. Why should I trust Apple and iCloud Photos when they just set a precedence that they are willing to look through your iCloud? That there's a chance (a small chance, but a chance) that you could be done in while being completely innocent? At the end of the day, it just shows that A) most "privacy driven" companies are privacy-driven to a point and that B) the best cloud is the cloud you can make at home, especially if you're paying like what, $10/month for a cloud service? By the end of the year, your already halfway towards an easy NAS setup. Just do it yourself.

[cj09beira]

every day that passes 1984 become more true, It wasn't supposed to be a how to book!!

[poochyena]

3 hours ago, linux fanboy said:

with a new technology that'll detect these images in Apple's photos app with the help of databases provided by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children.

So does this mean its basically just like a reverse image search? Its not using AI, just looking for copies of known CP from a database? Does seem as bad if thats the case. If its AI and requires manual review, that could be issue since an algorithm trying to determine what is or isn't CP is nearly impossible to be very accurate.

[Bombastinator]

14 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

every day that passes 1984 become more true, It wasn't supposed to be a how to book!!

There does seem to be a step forward step back thing with it.  The book was a semi political tract iirc. There was a view from the alternate political point which was a different dystopian thing.  Both are dated. 

[Jtalk4456]

21 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Kids are not always good judges of what is important.  Parents can miss things too though.  Also there’s the issue of overprotection.  There are such things as harmless mistakes preventing harmful ones later.  

so you're left with no answers. letting kids send nudes is bad, but parents aren't always good enough to decide? idk what your point is arguing against being a good parent. I'm going to keep being a good parent, and you decide what you want to do if applicable

[Bombastinator]

Just now, Caroline said:

Yet another bash to privacy using security as an excuse. Next they'll say they're keylogging users messages to catch "extremist" messages used to "manipulate the minds of our fellow citizens"

 

What a beautiful day to be thankful for not having a smartphone.

Perhaps.  Perhaps not.  Devil is likely in the details with this one.

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, Jtalk4456 said:

so you're left with no answers. letting kids send nudes is bad, but parents aren't always good enough to decide? idk what your point is arguing against being a good parent. I'm going to keep being a good parent, and you decide what you want to do if applicable

Yeah.  I didn’t say it was easy.  Parenting has long famously been the hardest job anyone ever does. I’m not arguing against being a good parent I’m just pointing out that what looks like an easy choice may be less simple than it looks.