People Will Literally Fight Over This

[Rex Hite]

I think at this point with respect to higher end graphics cards LTT and the other YouTube PR/influencers can say anything vaguely related to benchmarks and price because the outrage will drive engagement across their channels. They win no matter what. And that's fine.

[Egg-Roll]

2 minutes ago, chebsy said:

Well I think Linus was pretty clear in his review that he was giving a "buy" recommendation based on the current market.  But I agree with you in part, Linus could have clarified that the 3080 offers a much stronger price/performance value than the 3080 TI, and if/when the market recovers, he would recommend that instead. 

 

And that's really all I wanted to see, someone who understands that there is an undistributed middle between "comparing MSRP is the only way" and "comparing actual prices is the only way".  You can easily address both and offer a balanced conclusion.

 

But with that said, neither myself nor anyone else can predict when this market will "recover", what that recovery will look like, and what the landscape will be going forward.  So for Linus to completely ignore comparing cards based on MSRP, I feel that the onus of predicting the future is lifted from him, and he can offer a more relevant and useful opinion to his viewers in the here and now.

 

For what it's worth I'm not a fanboy of anyone, I just came here to talk about fan control software.  But I think tech toobers have been doing a very bad job recently with respect to GPUs and wanted to give credit to LTT where it was due. 

He was more clear this video (forgot to mention that) but I think that's him more covering his own butt from the poor reception of the 3080 Ti video. Truth be told the 70 Ti series has never been the worst deal going, but they've never been potentially the only cards on the market giving people a choice as well.

 

The issue is comparing performance to MSRP is the only real way as saying card x is better than card y but never stating that card y is 10x cheaper can lead to further issues. For example if you compare the 3060 to the 3090 you'll say the 3090 will win no matter what, but once you look at the MSRP for both it starts making sense why the 3090 dominates the 3060. Same can be said for all cards even the 3070 and 3070 Ti, if you can get them for about the same price then the choice is yours (I'd get the Ti) but if the only Ti available via AIB is $100 more vs the non, you'd be better off with the non as the gains don't make sense for the extra money.

 

About market recovery:

TSMC is apparently fully booked for orders this year and potentially next year as well, however that doesn't mean supply will still be scarce by then. That's why I don't think anyone should change their tune for the sake of something that can violently change over night. Imagine the USA imposing a crypto ban and/or the EU(similarly to how China did), or worst Musk somehow manages to one punch kill crypto. Scalpers won't be able to scalp because miners will be dumping cards, and it'll make a video like Linus's obsolete faster than your breakfast can get cold in -40C temperatures. Now the likelihood of that happening is as likely as you or I walking to a Best Buy/Computer store tomorrow and getting a 3070 Ti. (which I'm not doing, I know it'd be a waste of time) However it still can happen, which is why suggesting anything in this market isn't a good idea because AIBs are focusing on maximizing money because of lack of volume which means those low cost cards for us are never going to exist (for now) and grabbing a FE card is basically like winning the lottery.

 

I don't think the others have been doing a bad job, they call it as they see it, I don't always agree with them either (each have their own take, most here will reference GN, HWU or Jay), and I highly doubt all media sources but Linus collaborated together trying to force Nvidias hand. If you look at Linus's track record he's really the only tuber who has had to apologize multiple times a year in this sector, and it's not his first mess up on an embargo lift review either, the only thing Linus seems to really care about is being first out of the gate and quality second in these cases, how many out of the gate first horses actually end up winning? The fact they couldn't even put the X in the GDDR6 chart for the 3070 Ti shows that, as I don't even want to know how something like that got past at least 2-3 people including Linus himself. (it was in a how they make videos a while ago)

[freeagent]

I gave up on 30 series. Everyone else can fight for them. They are the new Fermi to me anyways.. 40 series is the one you want..

[chebsy]

@Egg-Roll Agree to disagree then, all I'm saying is that Nvidia released a card for $1200 that sells for double that on ebay.  So any youtuber who complains about Nvidia's price being too high just looks extremely silly to me.  I understand and can appreciate the counter arguments, I will just never agree with them.  
 

Cheers.

[Egg-Roll]

2 minutes ago, chebsy said:

@Egg-Roll Agree to disagree then, all I'm saying is that Nvidia released a card for $1200 that sells for double that on ebay.  So anyone who complains about Nvidia's price being too high just looks extremely dumb to me.  I understand and can appreciate the counter arguments, I will just never agree with them.  
 

Cheers.

That's fine, just don't call people dumb over scalpers and the real dumb people willing to pay those prices. A 3080 non Ti is 100% not worth 2x the price let alone the Ti variant. People who are buying those are miners or very desperate gamers, likely miners. So those prices should be meaningless to gamers and consumers. Also yes at least for the 3080 Ti the MSRP is too high as outside of the current market situation the units wouldn't move as well as they are now. So since no one can predict how long this will last no one should be saying the prices are not too high or justify the prices because miners are buying it at 2x the price, stating so will reinforce a further increase once the market settles harming everyone including yourself, and I rather not be paying $1000 for my next mid-tier gpu thanks.

 

Have a nice day

[Blademaster91]

28 minutes ago, chebsy said:

@Egg-Roll Agree to disagree then, all I'm saying is that Nvidia released a card for $1200 that sells for double that on ebay.  So anyone who complains about Nvidia's price being too high just looks extremely dumb to me.  I understand and can appreciate the counter arguments, I will just never agree with them.  
 

Cheers.

Well the MSRP doesn't matter now, but I think @Egg-Roll has a good point here, the market can change and then the MSRP does matter. Even without the MSRP these cards just aren't a good value, yet Linus recommends the 3070Ti anyway. A card that costs $100 more in normal circumstances might be worth it if you care about that 5-10% better performance, but IMO the 3070Ti should be $50-60 more than the 3070 at the most. And Nvidia adding more GPU versions could make finding a 3070 even more difficult, as Nvidia are using the same GA104 GPU that also go into making 3070's.  

 

[chebsy]

@Egg-Roll I edited my post to use more correct wording, I did not mean to imply that anyone who had a different opinion than me is dumb.  I was only talking about youtubers who I see yelling at nvidia for high prices while lower-tier cards are selling for even more on the 2nd hand market.  That specifically is what looks silly to me, not someone just disagreeing with my opinion. 

 

@Blademaster91 I think the real goal for Nvidia is to turn the vanilla 3070 into vaporware.  They realize that the price is too low based on production costs, market demand, or both.  So they fixed the price with the 3070ti.  So the question of "will the 3070ti be a good value when the dust settles" might be pointless since I think the vanilla 3070 won't exist when the dust settles. 

 

 

[Egg-Roll]

1 hour ago, chebsy said:

I edited my post to use more correct wording, I did not mean to imply that anyone who had a different opinion than me is dumb.  I was only talking about youtubers who I see yelling at nvidia for high prices while lower-tier cards are selling for even more on the 2nd hand market.  That specifically is what looks silly to me, not someone just disagreeing with my opinion. 

The issue is that's the second hand market, something out of the hands of Nvidia, something that changes daily, tomorrow those cards could be worth $10,000 or $300, so calling out anyone who ignores that market is really the silly thing to do as everyone including Linus doesn't condone the current second market. If you haven't already go watch GNs video he actually broke down the second hand market findings. Then you have to factor in the 6900 XT at the base MSRP which is $1000, if AMD set theirs to $1200 too then there'd be no argument over price difference (but one could still complain about how it's over priced still), however that never happened and so everyone expected Nvidia to release the new 3080 Ti around the $1000 mark not $200 more making it not worth it even comparing it to the closest competition. Remember when the 2080 Ti came out AMD didn't release RDNA yet so Nvidia had no real competition in that market sector and could technically get away with any price, but by not changing their ways it is only logical to have a hard time justifying the $200 more over the 6900 XT.

 

You can keep trying to justify their pricing based on a market they have no control over due to 2 situations they have no control over, but once those issues are solved or mitigated they are going to find out the hard way that no one will want their $1200 card or $600 card when there is cheaper options within their own name or via AMD. You can claim that the 3070 won't exist but if they scrap it in total they would have to drop the price by $100 to stay in line with AMDs cards if/when the stock gets fixed. Like I stated in the post above no one knows how long this shortage will last, it doesn't even have to end. Just Crypto needs to die in some way and Ether 2.0 could be that tipping point. Since no one can predict the future we just have to wait, see, and do our best for the best outcome for all.

 

1 hour ago, Blademaster91 said:

yet Linus recommends the 3070Ti anyway

Truth be told I even recommend this card on page one if it was the only card sitting around MSRP  Tho if the 3080 Ti was the only card in stock over $1000 I would tell them to pass on it esp if they don't need one right away, and try a 3090 instead if they have that kind of cash.

[dogwitch]

2 hours ago, Egg-Roll said:

The issue is that's the second hand market, something out of the hands of Nvidia, something that changes daily, tomorrow those cards could be worth $10,000 or $300, so calling out anyone who ignores that market is really the silly thing to do as everyone including Linus doesn't condone the current second market. If you haven't already go watch GNs video he actually broke down the second hand market findings. Then you have to factor in the 6900 XT at the base MSRP which is $1000, if AMD set theirs to $1200 too then there'd be no argument over price difference (but one could still complain about how it's over priced still), however that never happened and so everyone expected Nvidia to release the new 3080 Ti around the $1000 mark not $200 more making it not worth it even comparing it to the closest competition. Remember when the 2080 Ti came out AMD didn't release RDNA yet so Nvidia had no real competition in that market sector and could technically get away with any price, but by not changing their ways it is only logical to have a hard time justifying the $200 more over the 6900 XT.

 

You can keep trying to justify their pricing based on a market they have no control over due to 2 situations they have no control over, but once those issues are solved or mitigated they are going to find out the hard way that no one will want their $1200 card or $600 card when there is cheaper options within their own name or via AMD. You can claim that the 3070 won't exist but if they scrap it in total they would have to drop the price by $100 to stay in line with AMDs cards if/when the stock gets fixed. Like I stated in the post above no one knows how long this shortage will last, it doesn't even have to end. Just Crypto needs to die in some way and Ether 2.0 could be that tipping point. Since no one can predict the future we just have to wait, see, and do our best for the best outcome for all.

 

Truth be told I even recommend this card on page one if it was the only card sitting around MSRP  Tho if the 3080 Ti was the only card in stock over $1000 I would tell them to pass on it esp if they don't need one right away, and try a 3090 instead if they have that kind of cash.

yeah take cypto out. still have shortage ... period.  getting tired of bs line that said thing causing the issue... cant be anything else going on in the world....

[MultiGamerClub]

19 hours ago, HairlessMonkeyBoy said:

They are not directly comparable across generations.

Probably true, but thats not what i was aiming for.

 

Just very suprised a 70 card got double the cores of my 2080s card had.

[CapuaS]

15 hours ago, chebsy said:

Thanks Linus et al for the measured video and reasonable advice at the end.  

 

I feel that GN has really missed the mark on these TI reviews.  Comparing performance relative to MSRP and then complaining about "value" is a completely useless measure in this market and he is doubling down on that flawed methodology.  I'm glad you can see that. 

 

I appreciate you guys suggesting that people buy 3070TI/3080TIs at MSRP if they can.  Because what you are actually suggesting is that people buy things at well below market value - which is good advice in general. 

 

Cheers.

Wait...

If the cards are bad price/perf at MSRP...

Then the current situation only makes it worse and people should not even bother with these cards at MSRP.

How is GN's methodology flawed?

[Stahlmann]

25 minutes ago, CapuaS said:

Wait...

If the cards are bad price/perf at MSRP...

Then the current situation only makes it worse and people should not even bother with these cards at MSRP.

How is GN's methodology flawed?

Exactly.

 

Higher MSRP = Higher 2nd hand price

 

So basically most of the MSRP comparison still applies when buyin the GPUs 2nd hand.

[Egg-Roll]

9 hours ago, dogwitch said:

yeah take cypto out. still have shortage ... period.  getting tired of bs line that said thing causing the issue... cant be anything else going on in the world....

No you don't just simply take out one of the biggest issues... If you do that then there is no chip shortage either. Reality is who do you think people are selling too on eBay? Gamers? Please, what gamer is crazy enough to buy a 3080 for 2x+ its price? Not many, not enough to justify the situation on the second hand market, outside of new releases anyways. The fact I can sell my 1070 if I really wanted too for equal or more (potentially up to double) than what I actually paid for it brand new states this, that card will be sold to a miner not a gamer as only miners can justify such a cost. A 3080 can mine about 100MH/s with proper settings this means it will produce about $8-10USD a day (current prices) or $2,900-$3,600 a year, so while a gamer can't/shouldn't justify a 3080 for $2,000+ a miner could/would, hence miners are causing the prices to hit up there and why you don't typically see many 3080 cards surpass $3,600. There is a limit to each card and while it is mostly MSRP based most won't buy cards too much over their profitability either to reduce risk of losses.

 

So lets assume Crypto dies tomorrow or vanishes off the earth with all cards with it. You are telling me within 60 days we wouldn't see a lowering price of cards on the second hand markets? You clearly don't know how supply and demand works if you believe that. Even if only 50% of all sales on eBay go to miners (very likely it's higher) that magical event would remove 50% of all bidders and their bots (yes bots), this means half the market demand no longer exists, most gamers are not going to places like eBay but patiently waiting for Amazon or local stores to have them at a respectable price. So since that's the case the sellers market changes into a buyers market those who list their cards for 2x the price will have a hard time selling, will they still sell out in stores? Yes, well maybe, but will it be as mad of a rush as it is today? No, because the scalpers don't see the  in doing it anymore and about 50% of all cards bought in stores get flipped. I can almost guarantee at least a few from Linus's VAG have flipped their cards too, for all we know it could be 90% have resold it. I was able to brute force my way threw the questions and it wouldn't take much for someone to setup a semi smart program to click on the answers till all 6 are correct, unless they have fixed it that is.

 

Equally if miners don't matter, why aren't we scalping phones, cpu's, ram and anything else that needs chips including cars? It just couldn't be that it is in fact them causing this whole hell hole could it? Nah, never that would be crazy 

 

Oh things get much much worst if crypto vanishes but the cards and people who own those cards remain, and when I mean worst I mean good for gamers, because then there would be a massive dumping of cards flooding the market (we've seen this in the past) with underpriced units which means why buy new when you can buy used? This means no one will want to buy new (usually), especially at scalpers pricing, which in turn will regardless if a shortage exists or not cause stock in stores to come back into existence.

 

Come back when you learn about economics as well as supply and demand. The chip shortages are not helping but the biggest offender are those who are buying up all cards at up to hash rate profitability. Aka Miners, not gamers. Also while I can't guarantee those buying cards at near hash rates are not all gamers, the chances are very low, as those who buy at this price point are willing to mine their money back, most aren't however. Equally the last crypto boom a few years ago even without shortages in chips the supply dried up as well for at least mid to high tier cards, so claiming shortages as the only issue is complete and utter nonsense.

[SolarNova]

On 6/9/2021 at 1:00 PM, GabenJr said:

In an age where people will fight over even the chance to get a video card, does it really matter how one performs or what it costs? And is the 3070 Ti even any good?

 

 

LTT ur loosing the plot.. seriously.

 

Well priced ? ...framing this even remotely positively ..WT actual F

 

With inflation:

 

GTX 670 = $467

$526*

GTX 680 = $586

 

GTX 770  = $381

$479*

GTX 780 = $577

 

GTX 970 = $375

$500*

GTX 980 = $625

 

GTX 1070ti = $495

 

 

So lets place a x70ti into the 900 series and below and choose a price right in the middle of the 2 respective cards*.

Now lets get the average, remember this is WITH inflation.

 

526+479+500+495 = 2000 / 4 = 500

 

So $500, for a card set between the x80 and x70 tier cards.

 

And here we are with the 3070ti MSRP at $600,  a 3080 still at $700 after the x80ti launch (should be $550-$600), and a 3080ti at $1200.

 

Basically, the entire product line has shifted up a tier in pricing.

And u cant argue it based on performance improvements over the previous generation. if that was logical we would have been paying tens of thousands for GPUs by this point if the price went up with performance each generation.

 

You want to save face by standing by what u said with the 3080ti ..bad idea but ok ..but u had the chance here to call this sh*t out wit the 3070ti, and u didnt ..again.

 

This generation, like the 20 series ..is a wash ..and right now this time period is starting to look like a wash for LTT,  uve lost some credibility here gents.

 

[Sir Beregond]

On 6/9/2021 at 2:20 PM, chebsy said:

Thanks Linus et al for the measured video and reasonable advice at the end.  

 

I feel that GN has really missed the mark on these TI reviews.  Comparing performance relative to MSRP and then complaining about "value" is a completely useless measure in this market and he is doubling down on that flawed methodology.  I'm glad you can see that. 

 

I appreciate you guys suggesting that people buy 3070TI/3080TIs at MSRP if they can.  Because what you are actually suggesting is that people buy things at well below market value - which is good advice in general. 

 

Cheers.

Lol what? Why wouldn't you just suggest buying a 3070 or 3080 at MSRP if you can instead? Both Ti cards offer minimal performance increase over those respective parts for much more money.

[MultiGamerClub]

RTX 3070 Ti costing 785$ in norway.. Kind of tempted.

[chebsy]

52 minutes ago, Sir Beregond said:

Lol what? Why wouldn't you just suggest buying a 3070 or 3080 at MSRP if you can instead? Both Ti cards offer minimal performance increase over those respective parts for much more money.

Of course I would, but we don't have the luxury anymore of picking the card with the best price/performance ratio and buying it for MSRP.  We have to take what we can get.

 

The problem with the 3080 specifically is that it can be flipped for a $1200+ profit with only a $800 buy-in, making it extremely unlikely to get one at MSRP.  3080Tis are the exact opposite, being flipped for "only" a $800 profit with a $1200 buy-in.  3080 is the best card to flip, 3080ti is the worst, across the entire 30 series.  

 

So yes obviously buy a 3080 at MSRP if you can but that would be like winning the lottery.  In theory there should be less competition for 3080TI at MSRP.  The dilemma is to wait potentially forever to strike gold (3080 at MSRP), or bite the bullet on a 3080TI at msrp. 

 

In a market where supply at MSRP is plentiful, the 3080TI is D.O.A. even if your budget allows for a $1200 GPU.  There is simply no value there compared to a 3080 at almost half the price.  But in this market specifically, if your budget allows for a $1200 GPU, then for sure go for a 3080ti if you can.  If your budget does not allow for a $1200 GPU in any market, then I'm not sure why this would even be a relevant conversation for you. 

[Kid.Lazer]

On 6/9/2021 at 4:20 PM, chebsy said:

[...]Comparing performance relative to MSRP and then complaining about "value" is a completely useless [...]

 

[...]I appreciate you guys suggesting that people buy 3070TI/3080TIs at MSRP if they can [...]

So... MSRP is the deciding factor of when to buy it, but it has no bearing on value? Seems a bit hypocritical.

[Sir Beregond]

2 hours ago, chebsy said:

Of course I would, but we don't have the luxury anymore of picking the card with the best price/performance ratio and buying it for MSRP.  We have to take what we can get.

 

The problem with the 3080 specifically is that it can be flipped for a $1200+ profit with only a $800 buy-in, making it extremely unlikely to get one at MSRP.  3080Tis are the exact opposite, being flipped for "only" a $800 profit with a $1200 buy-in.  3080 is the best card to flip, 3080ti is the worst, across the entire 30 series.  

 

So yes obviously buy a 3080 at MSRP if you can but that would be like winning the lottery.  In theory there should be less competition for 3080TI at MSRP.  The dilemma is to wait potentially forever to strike gold (3080 at MSRP), or bite the bullet on a 3080TI at msrp. 

 

In a market where supply at MSRP is plentiful, the 3080TI is D.O.A. even if your budget allows for a $1200 GPU.  There is simply no value there compared to a 3080 at almost half the price.  But in this market specifically, if your budget allows for a $1200 GPU, then for sure go for a 3080ti if you can.  If your budget does not allow for a $1200 GPU in any market, then I'm not sure why this would even be a relevant conversation for you. 

Where are you actually finding MSRP 3080 Ti's either? They don't exist in some separate market separate from the problems of the rest of the 30-series. So if the conclusion is that if you can find a card for MSRP, then clearly the 3070 and 3080 are better choices than their Ti counterparts. And if going forward, the Ti cards are the only ones that you can find at MSRP that that reinforces the tinfoil hat conclusion that dies are being directed away from 3070/3080 and to higher margin parts for Nvidia. So either way, gamers lose.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Sir Beregond
Added some more.

[chebsy]

46 minutes ago, Sir Beregond said:

Where are you actually finding MSRP 3080 Ti's either? They don't exist in some separate market separate from the problems of the rest of the 30-series. So if the conclusion is that if you can find a card for MSRP, then clearly the 3070 and 3080 are better choices than their Ti counterparts. And if going forward, the Ti cards are the only ones that you can find at MSRP that that reinforces the tinfoil hat conclusion that dies are being directed away from 3070/3080 and to higher margin parts for Nvidia. So either way, gamers lose.

I'm more than happy to have a good-faith conversation about this, but that apparently only goes one way.  No interest in repeating what I said to refute your straw man argument.  Have a good one. 

[Sir Beregond]

12 minutes ago, chebsy said:

I'm more than happy to have a good-faith conversation about this, but that apparently only goes one way.  No interest in repeating what I said to refute your straw man argument.  Have a good one. 

I'm happy to have a good faith discussion which is all I am doing. I am just not following your logic at all.

 

You say this:

  

3 hours ago, chebsy said:

Of course I would, but we don't have the luxury anymore of picking the card with the best price/performance ratio and buying it for MSRP.  We have to take what we can get.

When the conclusion to the LTT 3080Ti review video recommends the card if you can get it at MSRP. So from which lens are we viewing it? Because if we acknowledge that MSRP is a bad value, and obviously scalper prices are...what are we arguing at this point?

 

3 hours ago, chebsy said:

The problem with the 3080 specifically is that it can be flipped for a $1200+ profit with only a $800 buy-in, making it extremely unlikely to get one at MSRP.  3080Tis are the exact opposite, being flipped for "only" a $800 profit with a $1200 buy-in.  3080 is the best card to flip, 3080ti is the worst, across the entire 30 series.  

I looked up eBay prices for 3080Ti and outside of some outliers, this isn't true. Most are definitely tacking on more than $800.

 

3 hours ago, chebsy said:

So yes obviously buy a 3080 at MSRP if you can but that would be like winning the lottery.  In theory there should be less competition for 3080TI at MSRP.  The dilemma is to wait potentially forever to strike gold (3080 at MSRP), or bite the bullet on a 3080TI at msrp. 

So if you can find a card at MSRP, your contention is that it is easier to find MSRP 3080Ti's than 3080's? If that's what you are saying, then where are the 3080s?

 

3 hours ago, chebsy said:

In a market where supply at MSRP is plentiful, the 3080TI is D.O.A. even if your budget allows for a $1200 GPU.  There is simply no value there compared to a 3080 at almost half the price.  But in this market specifically, if your budget allows for a $1200 GPU, then for sure go for a 3080ti if you can.  If your budget does not allow for a $1200 GPU in any market, then I'm not sure why this would even be a relevant conversation for you. 

It should be a relevant conversation to everyone because recommending people buy overpriced cards for gaming is terrible for the future of this market when we no longer have the conditions we have currently.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Sir Beregond
Decided to quote respond to your specific points.

[RGaming]

Hello,

Wanted to know how about Davinci Resolve studio? Which graphic card is good? I have been struggling to pick which graphics card is better. I also play games and streaming. Im still looking information from NVIDIA and AMD. I'm stuck.

[RGaming]

I always watch linus and learning alot. I do this stuff too.

Edited June 30, 2021 by RGaming