Custom mechanical keyboard questions

[dizmo]

Ok keyboard nerds. I'm going to start planning my toe-dipping into the realm of custom keyboards. I'm a sucker for anything I can customize, and I can't resist any longer.

I'm not looking to dive too deep, so I'd like to keep costs reasonable; $300ish is fine, $600ish is not.

I have some questions though:

• I'm sort of leaning towards the Drop CTRL, as I like the green colour they offer. Is there another place that has reasonable aluminum base plates in colours, hopefully green? I could also be persuaded into a nice purple.
  Are the Drop setups decent? Obviously given the price they won't be mind blowing, but I'm looking for a Mercedes, not a Bentley.
• I don't need help with switches, as I can figure that out myself, but does lubing help all switches feel better? Also, is this process hard.
• Who makes the best stabilizers?
• What's a good site to find key cap sets? What's the best material? IIRC PBT is better, but is there something superior to that?

Any suggestions should be TKL. Not interested in anything smaller, even TKL is pushing it for me.

 

Thanks

 

 

[Damascus]

3 minutes ago, dizmo said:

What's a good site to find key cap sets? What's the best material? IIRC PBT is better, but is there something superior to that?

What chunk of your budget are you willing to spend on just caps?

4 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Who makes the best stabilizers?

C3 equalz or Durock

5 minutes ago, dizmo said:

I don't need help with switches, as I can figure that out myself, but does lubing help all switches feel better?

Asking this means you do, in fact need help with switches.  Some benefit massively from lubing, specifically linears and even more so budget linears 

6 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Also, is this process hard.

Time consuming and requires consistency,  not particularly difficult

 

7 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Are the Drop setups decent? Obviously given the price they won't be mind blowing, but I'm looking for a Mercedes, not a Bentley.

Drop is OK, they aren't #1 bang/buck but pretty easy to work with.  A GMMK pro, KBD75 or such would also be worth looking into 

[dizmo]

3 minutes ago, Damascus said:

What chunk of your budget are you willing to spend on just caps?

 

C3 equalz or Durock

 

Asking this means you do, in fact need help with switches.  Some benefit massively from lubing, specifically linears and even more so budget linears 

Time consuming and requires consistency,  not particularly difficult

 

Drop is OK, they aren't #1 bang/buck but pretty easy to work with.  A GMMK pro, KBD75 or such would also be worth looking into 

Depends on the difference it makes. Not looking to get something too basic, as that's the entire point of having a custom keyboard IMO.

 

I've heard Durock a few times during my brief research. Are the Cherry ones over rated? I've also heard good things about Zeal.

 

I meant more with switch type, than the other aspects. I'll find the switch I prefer via a switch tester. So, by the sounds of it paying more for the switch means lubing is less necessary? I'd probably just do that. Lubing sounds like a PITA I just don't want to be bothered with.

 

The GMMK Pro is interesting. I like the rotary knob. I don 't think I'd go for the KBD75, looks too compact (I know probably not that much smaller than the Pro, but the knob offsets the dislike of the size). I see GMMK also offers a full sized board, which is interesting. Neither are the color I want, but I can probably just get it re-anodized.

[Damascus]

14 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Depends on the difference it makes. Not looking to get something too basic, as that's the entire point of having a custom keyboard IMO.

Your budget limts you to knockoff caps unfortunately, search around to see what colorways work and then grab a $40 copycat from China.  That or get some of the budget proper caps from drop, they have GMK red samurai and now mito on a regular basis for $80

14 minutes ago, dizmo said:

I've heard Durock a few times during my brief research. Are the Cherry ones over rated? I've also heard good things about Zeal.

Zeal (in general) is expensive, Cherry isn't great and durock is really solid.  C3 equalz and durock cost about the same, (20 usd for the set) and are the same quality but the c3 ones have a lot of color options

14 minutes ago, dizmo said:

I meant more with switch type, than the other aspects. I'll find the switch I prefer via a switch tester. So, by the sounds of it paying more for the switch means lubing is less necessary? I'd probably just do that. Lubing sounds like a PITA I just don't want to be bothered with.

Yes and no.  Many tactile and clicky switches are actually hurt by lubing, so you don't mess with that anyways.  Some switches come poorly factory lubed, some come really, really nicely lubed (gazzew bobas iirc are like that) 

 

So cost isn't really the factor.  I use gat ink blacks, which are about $1 CAD each and they're also lubed, because the factory coating isn't super consisconsistent.  You always absolutely no matter what lube stabilizers 

14 minutes ago, dizmo said:

The GMMK Pro is interesting. I like the rotary knob. I don 't think I'd go for the KBD75, looks too compact (I know probably not that much smaller than the Pro, but the knob offsets the dislike of the size). I see GMMK also offers a full sized board, which is interesting. Neither are the color I want, but I can probably just get it re-anodized.

Investigate the market more.  There are so many options that I literally can't list even a fraction, so scoot around on all the different webstores to see what might work for you. 

[geo3]

1 hour ago, dizmo said:

I'd like to keep costs reasonable; $300ish is fine, $600ish is not.

....

 Any suggestions should be TKL. Not interested in anything smaller, even TKL is pushing it for me.

This is difficult. TKL options are limited and those that do exist are usually a lot more expensive. 

 

The Drop offerings are probably the only place you'll find something that fits both these requirements.  That or look for the IDOBAO ID87, but I think those are out of stock and hard to find currently.

 

1 hour ago, dizmo said:

I don't need help with switches, as I can figure that out myself, but does lubing help all switches feel better? Also, is this process hard.

It doese indeed make a difference in both feel and sound. Lubing is the only way to greatly reduce spring ping, and also makes the switch feel smoother and more consistent between switches, improves the sound, makes it sound deeper and reduces the upstroke rattle.  It's not difficult but tedious. If you don't want to lube (and are interested in linear switches), get the Novelkeys Silk switches which are factory lubed, this is IMO the best stock switch there is (of the ones I've tried). 

 

1 hour ago, dizmo said:

Who makes the best stabilizers?

Durock, C3 or Zeal, GMK is a close 4th.

 

But if you get a Drop board you can't use any of these because they use plate mount stabs only.  

 

Here lubing is not optional IMO. Stabilizer lubing is the single greatest improvement you can make to a keyboard, period. I personally would take some cheep no name knock off stab that's been properly lubed than a dry Durock, C3 or Zeal stab any day of the week. 

 

1 hour ago, dizmo said:

What's a good site to find key cap sets? What's the best material? IIRC PBT is better, but is there something superior to that?

Drop. If you want quality caps that are not bank breaking.  KBD Fans has some decent offerings, but their quality varies from good to meh, nothing terrible though.  PBT is more resistant to wear that ABS and more resistant to UV yellowing, however a good quality ABS set (decent thickness, tight tolerances, etc ) will look and feel nicer than a cheep PBT set. 

 

 

47 minutes ago, Damascus said:

Yes and no.  Many tactile and clicky switches are actually hurt by lubing, so you don't mess with that anyways.

I disagree that tactile switches are hurt by lubing, I've lubed every tactile switch I own and they all improved. The only switch type that's hurt is click jacket switches, you can still lube click bars too. 

[dizmo]

1 hour ago, Damascus said:

Your budget limts you to knockoff caps unfortunately, search around to see what colorways work and then grab a $40 copycat from China.  That or get some of the budget proper caps from drop, they have GMK red samurai and now mito on a regular basis for $80

 

Zeal (in general) is expensive, Cherry isn't great and durock is really solid.  C3 equalz and durock cost about the same, (20 usd for the set) and are the same quality but the c3 ones have a lot of color options

 

Yes and no.  Many tactile and clicky switches are actually hurt by lubing, so you don't mess with that anyways.  Some switches come poorly factory lubed, some come really, really nicely lubed (gazzew bobas iirc are like that) 

 

So cost isn't really the factor.  I use gat ink blacks, which are about $1 CAD each and they're also lubed, because the factory coating isn't super consisconsistent.  You always absolutely no matter what lube stabilizers 

 

Investigate the market more.  There are so many options that I literally can't list even a fraction, so scoot around on all the different webstores to see what might work for you. 

Does it? $350 doesn't give enough room for the case ($100ish), keycaps ($100ish), and decent keycaps? I did take a gander at the GMK stuff, seems like most of their sets are around $170...definitely more than the $80ish - $100 I was seeing for most key cap sets on the sites I was browsing.

 

Might be a stupid question, but when do you see the colour of the stabilizers? I suppose on a flat base like the Drop CTRL?

 

Ahhh I see. I noticed that in some videos, people were saying how well lubed some switches were from the factory. I imagine even that can be hit and miss though. I'm probably going to order this, to get a rough feel for different switch types as I've only tried Cherry Black, Blue, Brown and Red.

https://drop.com/buy/kbdfans-all-in-one-72-switch-tester

 

Do you have any sites you'd suggest? There seems to be a ton, and a lot of them aren't overly well laid out. I'd definitely want something hot swappable which I imagine is going to greatly reduce my options, yes?

 

It seems like the mechanical keyboard scene is almost more elitist than the audio scene; quite a feat.

 

51 minutes ago, geo3 said:

This is difficult. TKL options are limited and those that do exist are usually a lot more expensive. 

 

The Drop offerings are probably the only place you'll find something that fits both these requirements.  That or look for the IDOBAO ID87, but I think those are out of stock and hard to find currently.

 

It doese indeed make a difference in both feel and sound. Lubing is the only way to greatly reduce spring ping, and also makes the switch feel smoother and more consistent between switches, improves the sound, makes it sound deeper and reduces the upstroke rattle.  It's not difficult but tedious. If you don't want to lube (and are interested in linear switches), get the Novelkeys Silk switches which are factory lubed, this is IMO the best stock switch there is (of the ones I've tried). 

 

Durock, C3 or Zeal, GMK is a close 4th.

 

But if you get a Drop board you can't use any of these because they use plate mount stabs only.  

 

Here lubing is not optional IMO. Stabilizer lubing is the single greatest improvement you can make to a keyboard, period. I personally would take some cheep no name knock off stab that's been properly lubed than a dry Durock, C3 or Zeal stab any day of the week. 

 

Drop. If you want quality caps that are not bank breaking.  KBD Fans has some decent offerings, but their quality varies from good to meh, nothing terrible though.  PBT is more resistant to wear that ABS and more resistant to UV yellowing, however a good quality ABS set (decent thickness, tight tolerances, etc ) will look and feel nicer than a cheep PBT set.

Yeah I noticed. especially if you're looking for specific base colours. I found another one I like, perfect really, but it's $400 just for the base and the PCB isn't hot swappable. Shame. Off the list it goes.

 

Cool, I'll keep those in mind. They seem cheap, too. I could see this turning into an expensive habit in the constant pursuit of perfection.

 

Is a good quality ABS set cheaper than PBT? I've noticed that the GMK keys are mostly ABS...which surprised me as I thought PBT was superior.

[geo3]

11 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Is a good quality ABS set cheaper than PBT? I've noticed that the GMK keys are mostly ABS...which surprised me as I thought PBT was superior

Whether or not a set is expensive has little to do with the type of plastic used. GMK like's their fancy colors which you can't do with PBT as easily. From a pure materials perspective, density, durability ect. PBT is superior.  But it has it's draw backs as well, particularly in the manufacturing process. Double shot is harder to do because PBT shrinks after cools coming out of the mold. Color options are more limited as well.  

 

11 minutes ago, dizmo said:

I could see this turning into an expensive habit in the constant pursuit of perfection.

Run. Get out now. While you still can. 

[Damascus]

3 hours ago, dizmo said:

Does it? $350 doesn't give enough room for the case ($100ish), keycaps ($100ish), and decent keycaps? I did take a gander at the GMK stuff, seems like most of their sets are around $170...definitely more than the $80ish - $100 I was seeing for most key cap sets on the sites I was browsing.

Assuming you meant switches, but yeah.  Any cap set will do, getting a fancy name brand usually has more to do with an exclusive colorway and design.  Also, are you Canadian?  If yes, try to stick with CAN vendors or you'll be paying an extra 20-40% on top of conversion

3 hours ago, dizmo said:

Might be a stupid question, but when do you see the colour of the stabilizers? I suppose on a flat base like the Drop CTRL?

No, but welcome to keebland

3 hours ago, dizmo said:

Ahhh I see. I noticed that in some videos, people were saying how well lubed some switches were from the factory. I imagine even that can be hit and miss though. I'm probably going to order this, to get a rough feel for different switch types as I've only tried Cherry Black, Blue, Brown and Red.

https://drop.com/buy/kbdfans-all-in-one-72-switch-tester

Stock lube is rarely good after you've tried really nice switches

3 hours ago, dizmo said:

Do you have any sites you'd suggest? There seems to be a ton, and a lot of them aren't overly well laid out. I'd definitely want something hot swappable which I imagine is going to greatly reduce my options, yes?

https://www.alexotos.com/keyboard-vendor-list/  YMDK is  a great budget brand I just remembered, and there are loads of cheap kits on aliexpress to tinker with 
https://ymdkey.com/

3 hours ago, dizmo said:

It seems like the mechanical keyboard scene is almost more elitist than the audio scene; quite a feat.

Eh, we don't have as much snake oil I guess?

[dizmo]

1 hour ago, geo3 said:

Whether or not a set is expensive has little to do with the type of plastic used. GMK like's their fancy colors which you can't do with PBT as easily. From a pure materials perspective, density, durability ect. PBT is superior.  But it has it's draw backs as well, particularly in the manufacturing process. Double shot is harder to do because PBT shrinks after cools coming out of the mold. Color options are more limited as well.  

 

Run. Get out now. While you still can. 

Ahhh gotcha. Might be a stupid question, but if something is double shot, that means that the light from the LED shines through the letter, yes? Or is there another way to tell that the key will do this?

 

Haha, I can't stop once I know something can be customized. I've already been looking into customized cables as well. You can get some pretty sick looking ones!

Plus, I've recently started adding to my IEM collection. So. I can only imagine where this will go.

1 hour ago, Damascus said:

Assuming you meant switches, but yeah.  Any cap set will do, getting a fancy name brand usually has more to do with an exclusive colorway and design.  Also, are you Canadian?  If yes, try to stick with CAN vendors or you'll be paying an extra 20-40% on top of conversion

 

No, but welcome to keebland

 

Stock lube is rarely good after you've tried really nice switches

 

https://www.alexotos.com/keyboard-vendor-list/  YMDK is a great budget brand I just remembered, and there are loads of cheap kits on aliexpress to tinker with 
https://ymdkey.com/

 

Eh, we don't have as much snake oil I guess?

Haha, oops. Yes, switches. I'd definitely be looking more into quality than name brand, is there a site that does reviews? If price doesn't really dictate quality, how do people find out which keycaps are the good ones to go for? I am Canadian, yes, but why would there be an extra 20-40% conversion? I don't think there's anything that has duty rates that high outside of alcohol and a few other things.

 

Ah yes, make it look good when the keys are off for when the build photos are being taken

 

Thanks I'll check them out. Do they do hot swappable kits?

 

I mean there's no $1,000 cables, but $400+ for a CNC'd shell is still pretty high. It's more peoples attitudes when they're talking to others about it. Especially when reading through comments on some YT (I know, I know, horrible place in general) videos and some Reddit threads.

 

 

 

 

Curious, what do you guys use for your keycap profiles? Seems like most are Cherry profile, and from what I've read that's the best for most people. Ever tried different ones?

[Damascus]

5 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Haha, oops. Yes, switches. I'd definitely be looking more into quality than name brand, is there a site that does reviews? If price doesn't really dictate quality, how do people find out which keycaps are the good ones to go for? I am Canadian, yes, but why would there be an extra 20-40% conversion? I don't think there's anything that has duty rates that high outside of alcohol and a few other things.

See, when you buy that set of 20 USD stabs from "company" they wind up costing $41 CAD after shipping (real example)

 

It is very, very rare to find all of the stuff you want from the same store, so you wind up paying shipping on basically every single tiny little piece.  Stuff adds up really quickly

5 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Ah yes, make it look good when the keys are off for when the build photos are being taken

  The multi-color ones are also just amazing as stabilizers, and cost the same as any other good stab so why not

5 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Thanks I'll check them out. Do they do hot swappable kits?

Loads of em.  Alexotos has a Canadian vendor list as well, very helpful 

5 minutes ago, dizmo said:

I mean there's no $1,000 cables, but $400+ for a CNC'd shell is still pretty high. It's more peoples attitudes when they're talking to others about it. Especially when reading through comments on some YT (I know, I know, horrible place in general) videos and some Reddit threads.

Hahaha $400 for a case, I'm drooling.  What you'll soon see is that, because EVERYTHING good in this hobby is sold via group buy, most of those cool boards are unavailable.  And then scalpers get involved, and cases/keycaps double, triple, quintuple or more in price.

5 minutes ago, dizmo said:

Curious, what do you guys use for your keycap profiles? Seems like most are Cherry profile, and from what I've read that's the best for most people. Ever tried different ones?

I currently use cherry profile red samurai caps, very familiar/normal feel 

 

https://drop.com/buy/drop-redsuns-gmk-red-samurai-keycap-set?utm_placement=23&referer=ZUCV7X&mode=guest_open&utm_campaign=Automated Daily Promotional 2021-05-26&utm_source=SparkPost&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Daily Promotional&utm_content=1622021742337.547651529794283511663421

 

But I also have a board with these DSA deep space, which are super flat and uniform, and a set of SA caps that I haven't used in a while - I found the sculpt to be too much.

 

Also, in response to that backlighting question - no.  There is no shinethrough in high end keebland, as the point of these overly expensive keycaps is the complementary colors the designer used.  If you want some backlit keycaps, there are actually loads of inexpensive options

[geo3]

16 hours ago, dizmo said:

Ahhh gotcha. Might be a stupid question, but if something is double shot, that means that the light from the LED shines through the letter, yes?

No. It means that the the cap is injection molded twice. Once for the body of the cap and then again for the lettering. It is possible to make shine through caps this way by using a transparent plastic for the lettering. But not all shine throughs are double shot and not all double shot are shine through. 

 

16 hours ago, dizmo said:

Curious, what do you guys use for your keycap profiles? Seems like most are Cherry profile, and from what I've read that's the best for most people. Ever tried different ones?

I personally despise Cherry profile. IMO it looks ugly and feels weird to type on.  My favorite profiles are MT3 and KAT, then SA after that and then XDA. Between MT3 and KAT, KAT has the best typing feel and sound profile, MT3 looks the nicest. But both look sound and feel better almost all others. 

[Guest]

You seem well covered here, but I'll add one thing. Don't rely too heavily on the switch feel you get from switch testers. They don't feel like they would in a real keyboard, and even though I see some say they are better than nothing, I disagree. I've had switches I thought I hated because they felt terrible in a tester. Not saying don't get one, just saying don't put your full confidence in it.

[Gale]

18 hours ago, dizmo said:

It seems like the mechanical keyboard scene is almost more elitist than the audio scene; quite a feat.

Yeah, if you like Cherry MX Blues, you'll get excommunicated for the rest of your life.

[dizmo]

On 5/26/2021 at 10:05 PM, Damascus said:

See, when you buy that set of 20 USD stabs from "company" they wind up costing $41 CAD after shipping (real example)

 

It is very, very rare to find all of the stuff you want from the same store, so you wind up paying shipping on basically every single tiny little piece.  Stuff adds up really quickly

  The multi-color ones are also just amazing as stabilizers, and cost the same as any other good stab so why not

Loads of em.  Alexotos has a Canadian vendor list as well, very helpful 

Hahaha $400 for a case, I'm drooling.  What you'll soon see is that, because EVERYTHING good in this hobby is sold via group buy, most of those cool boards are unavailable.  And then scalpers get involved, and cases/keycaps double, triple, quintuple or more in price.

I currently use cherry profile red samurai caps, very familiar/normal feel 

 

https://drop.com/buy/drop-redsuns-gmk-red-samurai-keycap-set?utm_placement=23&referer=ZUCV7X&mode=guest_open&utm_campaign=Automated Daily Promotional 2021-05-26&utm_source=SparkPost&utm_medium=email&utm_term=Daily Promotional&utm_content=1622021742337.547651529794283511663421

 

But I also have a board with these DSA deep space, which are super flat and uniform, and a set of SA caps that I haven't used in a while - I found the sculpt to be too much.

 

Also, in response to that backlighting question - no.  There is no shinethrough in high end keebland, as the point of these overly expensive keycaps is the complementary colors the designer used.  If you want some backlit keycaps, there are actually loads of inexpensive options

Ahhh yes I see what you're saying, that's definitely something I'd factored in. Plus I use a rerouting company to bring things in from the US, so it's generally quite cheap.

 

Haha, ahh yes. Colors just for the sake of having colors. I could see that eventually being something I want.

 

Yeah I noticed that the link was a huge list of links, thanks! Very helpful.

 

I've noticed. It's almost like they want to keep it niche so that everyone can circlejerk over their 'limited' keyboards

On 5/26/2021 at 10:25 PM, geo3 said:

No. It means that the the cap is injection molded twice. Once for the body of the cap and then again for the lettering. It is possible to make shine through caps this way by using a transparent plastic for the lettering. But not all shine throughs are double shot and not all double shot are shine through. 

 

I personally despise Cherry profile. IMO it looks ugly and feels weird to type on.  My favorite profiles are MT3 and KAT, then SA after that and then XDA. Between MT3 and KAT, KAT has the best typing feel and sound profile, MT3 looks the nicest. But both look sound and feel better almost all others. 

Ahhh very interesting. I guess that's something I'll just have to play around with, hopefully there's really cheap keycaps of different profiles.

On 5/27/2021 at 5:24 AM, Guest said:

You seem well covered here, but I'll add one thing. Don't rely too heavily on the switch feel you get from switch testers. They don't feel like they would in a real keyboard, and even though I see some say they are better than nothing, I disagree. I've had switches I thought I hated because they felt terrible in a tester. Not saying don't get one, just saying don't put your full confidence in it.

Interesting, I'd have thought the tester housing would have been made to mimic a keyboard. Good to know!

On 5/27/2021 at 1:23 PM, Gale said:

Yeah, if you like Cherry MX Blues, you'll get excommunicated for the rest of your life.

Hah, I loathe those switches. I did tons of research, asked questions, and everything pointed to me loving the Blues. Got a keyboard with them, used it for about 45 minutes, sold it the next day. Can't fucking stand them. The high ping click drives me insane.