Tile bashes Apple’s new AirTag as unfair competition. It will be asking Congress on Wednesday to take a closer look into Apple

[StDragon]

This product is useless. It will be a game changer when they can include this tech inside a 10mm socket.

[Bombastinator]

5 minutes ago, Blademaster91 said:

I said that Samsung made a smart tag tile like device finder, I thought Amazon made one but I guess not.

I'm not sure does LG make any? I wouldn't be surprised if LG wants in the market since they gave up on smartphones.

But I didn't know Tile invented the market, so now I really see why they're upset with Apple trying to force them out of the iOS part of the market. I don't know if they could be mad at Samsung, iirc the Samsung smart tag does the same thing a Tile does but only works with a Samsung phone.

Which is different from this how?

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, StDragon said:

This product is useless. It will be a game changer when they can include this tech inside a 10mm socket.

Useless to some undoubtedly.  I watched such a technology do wonders once.  Nobody likes to see their mom sobbing like a three year old when they can do something about it.

[divito]

1 hour ago, Zando Bob said:

Yeah. The issue Tile is taking is that they pay the rent, yet the owners of the mall opened up a store right next to the doors and are selling the same thing. They obvs don't pay rent to themselves, and they control the building, the signs outside, the map inside, and who can rent where, so it's an unfair advantage. 

 

It makes sense to me that they'd be pissed. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

That's actually not quite accurate. 

It'd probably be more apt to say, Apple owns a plaza. On their self-branded area of the plaza, they have their own building and amenities for people with a membership (Apple owner). The app store, is the rest of the plaza, a strip mall basically. They own the land and units, and rent out to the other "stores" for 30% commission. Consumers are free to use the Apple area (first party apps/services), or head over to the other side of the parking lot to check out other options (everything else). Apple is free to allow tenants based on their terms, or remove tenants for violating or not paying rent.

 

Adding a similar amenity, that happens to be provided by one of the companies renting a unit does not negate or prevent competition. Those tenants, rather, have now been granted a kiosk in the Apple building (third-party tracker). They are free to continue operating their unit and keep paying rent. Or they can leave the plaza and maintain their kiosk with Apple.

[StDragon]

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Useless to some undoubtedly.  I watched such a technology do wonders once.  Nobody likes to see their mom sobbing like a three year old when they can do something about it.

You don't understand. All lost 10mm sockets summoned a portal to an alternate universe where all other 10mm sockets reside. If you can track just one, you might be able to follow it it back through the portal to find the others. Is Apple up to the task?? I'm not so sure about that.

[Arika]

5 minutes ago, divito said:

All those companies are subject to the exact same statement; their platform, their rules. There are detractors and supporters behind every decision, and this is no different. To have that other user have to trawl through the forums to find people that back up that statement is a bit asinine. 

And yet i've never seen it happen on this forum to anyone but Apple, hence my "happy to be proven wrong". Of course there are supporters for other manufacturers, but i'm specifically saying "their platform, their rules" hasn't been used by anyone on this forum (non-ironically) for any manufacturer but Apple.

 

Just look at any time there is a news thread about Windows automatic updates

"windows bad"

"spyware 10"

"what's going to break this time"

 

Never have i seen "their platform, their rules" on a windows thread.

 

And yes, Apple also gets criticized a lot here too, EVERY company deserves criticism, but when that criticism gets knocked down with "it's THEIR platform" that's what i have a problem with. It removes all nuance from the conversation and can be applied to basically dismiss ANY criticism of ANYTHING. My issue isn't even specifically with Apple, it's with this phrase, it just so happens to only pop up in threads about Apple here.

 

Apply it to any other situation and you will see how stupid it can be. 

Facebook/Google sells your data? Their platform, their rules, don't complain

Amazon treating their employees like shit? their company, their rules, don't complain

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, divito said:

That's actually not quite accurate. 

It'd probably be more apt to say, Apple owns a plaza. On their self-branded area of the plaza, they have their own building and amenities for people with a membership (Apple owner). The app store, is the rest of the plaza, a strip mall basically. They own the land and units, and rent out to the other "stores" for 30% commission. Consumers are free to use the Apple area (first party apps/services), or head over to the other side of the parking lot to check out other options (everything else). Apple is free to allow tenants based on their terms, or remove tenants for violating or not paying rent.

 

Adding a similar amenity, that happens to be provided by one of the companies renting a unit does not negate or prevent competition. Those tenants, rather, have now been granted a kiosk in the Apple building (third-party tracker). They are free to continue operating their unit and keep paying rent. Or they can leave the plaza and maintain their kiosk with Apple.

There are some differences.  Tile is not Apple exclusive afaik. Or at least had no reason to be afaik outside of them perhaps not bothering to write an app for android. Does anyone who invents a technology that works on a platform gain effective copywrite on that technology after their patent has expired? 
 Apple is not the first phone manufacturer to make such a device. That TILE is unhappy goes without saying. If they’re Apple exclusive the could lose a large portion of their business. If they’re not it could be a small section.  The question is are they wronged in such a way that the public should do something about it?  That one seems to be less clear.

[Bombastinator]

4 minutes ago, StDragon said:

You don't understand. All lost 10mm sockets summoned a portal to an alternate universe where all other 10mm sockets reside. If you can track just one, you might be able to follow it it back through the portal to find the others. Is Apple up to the task?? I'm not so sure about that.

Ok, you’re right.  I completely do not understand.

[StDragon]

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I completely do not understand.

In all seriousness, a 10mm socket is one of the most lost of tools. So much so it's a meme in of itself.

 

Tool tracking would be revolutionized with such RFID tech.

[divito]

1 minute ago, Arika S said:

And yet i've never seen it happen on this forum to anyone but Apple, hence my "happy to be proven wrong". Of course there are supporters for other manufacturers, but i'm specifically saying "their platform, their rules" hasn't been used by anyone on this forum (non-ironically) for any manufacturer but Apple.

 

Just look at any time there is a news thread about Windows automatic updates

"windows bad"

"spyware 10"

"what's going to break this time"

 

Never have i seen "their platform, their rules" on a windows thread.

 

And yes, Apple also gets criticized a lot here too, EVERY company deserves criticism, but when that criticism gets knocked down with "it's THEIR platform" that's what i have a problem with. It removes all nuance from the conversation and can be applied to basically dismiss ANY criticism of ANYTHING. My issue isn't even specifically with Apple, it's with this phrase, it just so happens to only pop up in threads about Apple here.

 

Apply it to any other situation and you will see how stupid it can be. 

Facebook/Google sells your data? Their platform, their rules, don't complain

Amazon treating their employees like shit? their company, their rules, don't complain

Absence of proof != proof of absence. The logic is fairly standard, Facebook and Google can do what they're doing because it's their stuff and their TOS that people ignorantly use. Each company that is vilified for some operation or stance, etc. is within their rights 99.9% of the time. 

I think many people let it go without saying because it doesn't always add to the discussion. For some reason, Apple lovers seem to be more vocal and impassioned to defend, whereas the other companies seem to draw general ire and their supporters are not as vocal.

Personally, I think Microsoft was unfairly ridiculed and buried under ridiculous antitrust issues for a lot of the violations in the past; I use Facebook and Google and don't wear a tinfoil hat with regards to their services that I use and what they may or may not do with my "data." Nintendo is archaic, but within their rights to do all the sorts of stuff they partake in that ends up being mostly anti-consumer, in my opinion.

 

I don't mean to be combative with you in general. I don't disagree really with what you are saying; more just the aspect of desiring proof was a bit silly imo. I'm sure there is proof, if anyone is so inclined to look. And to your point, it definitely doesn't happen as much as it should to be more "fair."

[Bombastinator]

11 minutes ago, StDragon said:

In all seriousness, a 10mm socket is one of the most lost of tools. So much so it's a meme in of itself.

 

Tool tracking would be revolutionized with such RFID tech.

Depends.  I don’t use em too often myself.  I got a big toolbox with nothing but various partial socket sets in it rolling around loose.  Thing weighs a duckton.   It might be short some 10mms I suppose

[ivycomb]

Personally when it comes to things outside of the hardware/software or enthusiast audio space I'm really a "set it and forget it" type of person.

 

I have a bad habit of misplacing my keys around my apartment, and I'm seriously considering buying an airtag for my keys so I know where they are at all times. I don't want to be caught getting ready to leave for work, only for my keys to be inside of one of my drawers in the closet.

 

Cost of ownership is also virtually zero past the initial investment, and they're claiming really high accuracy. Personally I am a huge fan of these.

[Pickles von Brine]

Better than tile. I can actually replace the batteries and keep the damn things. Tile you have to replace every 6 months...

[Arika]

as someone who has never lost her keys/wallet/purse/phone/bag this or any of their equivalents don't really mean much to me

[pas008]

Now what if Microsoft, Google(Android), just started cloning others ideas, software , apps to offer it on their platforms and take 30 percent cut on competitors (with no side loading or other ways to install)

While using their dominance/money/etc on "their" platform

 

Everyone going to be fine with that?

 

Isn't that anti competitive?

 

 

[AnonymousGuy]

Apple: makes a product better on day one than other company has done in 5 years.

Tile: Wait that's illegal!

 

Their entire statement is nonsensical marketing wank.  Actual anticompetitive practice would be Apple kicking them off their platform yesterday as soon as airtags were announced.  But effectively nothing has changed for them so they have no argument aside from "Apple is doing it better and we don't like that".

[wanderingfool2]

To the topic, I feel as though Tile does have a valid point.  Apple introducing new products that directly competes with others (while benefiting from the fact that they can keep their margins lower because they don't have to compete with 30% hits).

 

To everyone saying that it's Apples product, you are missing the point.  It's like saying if Microsoft issued a patch where Windows Store was the only option...or akin to how Microsoft tried to strong-arm in IE (and IE's type of web standard).

 

I'm not against Apple creating this product, I do think it's a decent idea, but it is important to recognize that Apple is effectively using their power of the mobile market to squeeze out competitor of another product.  Specifically they are introducing technology in their phone to create a "better" product, without giving access to potential competitors in a timely matter.  If Apple wants to release a product then they should be playing by the same rules that they set for everyone else.  (Again, it's like how Microsoft tightly integrated IE into their code which clearly was anti-trust)

 

3 hours ago, pas008 said:

Now what if Microsoft, Google(Android), just started cloning others ideas, software , apps to offer it on their platforms and take 30 percent cut on competitors (with no side loading or other ways to install)

While using their dominance/money/etc on "their" platform

 

Everyone going to be fine with that?

 

Isn't that anti competitive?

 

Well with most Android phones there is a secondary store, and like it not the option to side-load is a real thing.

 

8 hours ago, elfensky said:

You are allowed to make people buy the subscription/service/whatever outside of the app, as long as:
- the price stays the same in-app vs. your own store
OR
- you just don't provide any purchase functionality in the app itself (see Floatplane as a clear cut example)

Dictating pricing is required to remain the same, while still taking a larger % cut gives Apple an unfair advantage

Also, look at all the issues Floatplane had with issuing updates (and the fact that they had to strip out so many features to accommodate the fact that you can't advertise your subscription there).

 

 

 

[AnonymousGuy]

4 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Specifically they are introducing technology in their phone to create a "better" product, without giving access to potential competitors in a timely matter. 

"Can you put a bunch of features in your product so we can profit off them and you can't?"

[Master Disaster]

Some of y'all really need to understand the difference between a healthy competitive market and a monopoly...

 

Its Apples eco system and they are allowed to do whatever they want, nobody is saying otherwise. The problem is Apple are not offering third parties the ability to be competitive on the Apple eco system.

 

All Apple has to do is allow full & proper sideloading (yes I know they do allow some stuff but only if it has a valid Apple dev certificate which they can revoke and stop the app from functioning even after its installed) and allow a competing store.

 

The example from above is perfect, imagine if MS patched Windows so you could only use the MS Store to install things and then added a 30% cut to all transactions, smaller companies would be instantly priced out, indie software would disappear and users would be stuck with mainstream software and a higher cost than before.

 

Competition = good. Capitalism = better than the alternatives. Monopoly = bad.

 

Also FTR its not just Tile who testified, both Spotify and Match also did and the allegations are aimed at both Apple & Google.

[Sauron]

9 hours ago, divito said:

It cannot be illegal for a company to develop/implement a service or product just because they have a large userbase and other companies exist.

It's not. What IS illegal is to take advantage of their standing in a different market (e.g. smartphones) to get an unfair advantage. Apple would need to offer third parties the ability to integrate their own functionality in their native app for free or at the very least allow them to distribute their own app at no additional cost.

 

Imagine this scenario: what if Microsoft decided they wanted to make graphics cards, bundled their own driver into Windows and then started charging competitors a fee to have the privilege of distributing their own driver on Windows, or for making their own products compatible with the existing driver? Surely you can see how having a de facto monopoly on desktop computer operating systems gives them an unfair competitive advantage here. The same applies to Apple.

9 hours ago, elfensky said:

thing is, I don't see where Apple's shutting them out?
They're opening up the Find My experience to other developers, Tile is free to integrate with Find My (making me much more likely to buy them), instead of using their own app... Tile choosing not to is on them.
It costs 99$ a year to join the MFi program, which is basically free for a large company like Tile. I could understand if using Find My carried licensing/server/ costs for the manufacturers that integrate with it, but there doesn't seem to exist anything like that.

It doesn't really matter how much it costs, it's still a barrier to entry Apple doesn't have to pay for. Even if it were free there's still the issue of having to offer a service on Apple's terms; what if Tile wants to offer features that Find My doesn't have or, for one reason or another, doesn't want to adhere to the exact specifications Apple requires? If Apple didn't sell their own device and just offered Find My as a native option for third parties to use it wouldn't be a problem; as it stands this is blatantly anti-competitive.

8 hours ago, Video Beagle said:

Using the mall example, if apple isn't putting barriers up in front of the tile store, not keeping mantence from sweeping the floor around them, or sending mall guards to break the tile store's products, that isn't unfair.

The rent is a barrier. You may disagree but anti-trust laws unequivocally consider that a violation.

8 hours ago, Video Beagle said:

Yes, they're at an advantage. That's what happens when you build your own marketplace...you have an advantage in it.

Yeah no, that's not how this works otherwise what would happen and used to happen (which is why anti-trust laws exist in the first place) is that one or two megacorporations take full control of dozens of different markets just by virtue of doing well in one of them. Surely you see some value in competition...

[Video Beagle]

52 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

 

To everyone saying that it's Apples product, you are missing the point.

No..the point is there is no "right" to sell on apple's platform..or Microsfots or Steam's or any mall or plaza in the physical world.

You don't have a "right" to a private marketplace because you think you deserve it.

You can't go set up a stall at your local mall or farmer's market just because you want to.

 

 

 

[Master Disaster]

1 hour ago, Video Beagle said:

No..the point is there is no "right" to sell on apple's platform..or Microsfots or Steam's or any mall or plaza in the physical world.

You don't have a "right" to a private marketplace because you think you deserve it.

You can't go set up a stall at your local mall or farmer's market just because you want to.

I'm sorry but what? Anti trust law and monopoly law are VERY clear. Apple are obligated to allow competition on their platform, they're selling products and services to consumers and consumers have the right to choice, protected by law.

 

Comparing Apple to Steam is dumb since Steam is an application that runs on an open platform. Also its not like Steam mandate that games sold on their store have to be exclusive to their store.

 

On the Microsoft comparision, guess what? Anybody can sell apps for Windows without needing to go anywhere near MS so you disproved your own argument.

 

No, but you can apply for permission to set up a stall at a farmers market and be given the ability to sell your products in direct competition with the other vendors. With Apple its their store with their rules and their cut or nothing.

 

Its more akin to Amazon having 100% control of shopping with all other stores and supermarkets not existing and charging food producers a cut for using Amazon while selling their own alternative for cheaper. Preventing this situation is, quite literally, the reason anti trust & monopoly laws exist.

[pas008]

4 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

I'm sorry but what? Anti trust law and monopoly law are VERY clear. Apple are obligated to allow competition on their platform, they're selling products and services to consumers and consumers have the right to choice, protected by law.

 

Comparing Apple to Steam is dumb since Steam is an application that runs on an open platform. Also its not like Steam mandate that games sold on their store have to be exclusive to their store.

 

On the Microsoft comparision, guess what? Anybody can sell apps for Windows without needing to go anywhere near MS so you disproved your own argument.

 

No, but you can apply for permission to set up a stall at a farmers market and be given the ability to sell your products in direct competition with the other vendors. With Apple its their store with their rules and their cut or nothing.

 

Its more akin to Amazon having 100% control of shopping with all other stores and supermarkets not existing and charging food producers a cut for using Amazon while selling their own alternative for cheaper. Preventing this situation is, quite literally, the reason anti trust & monopoly laws exist.

imagine if microsoft or google did force update for their operating systems to make only option to get apps is through their store? how fast would they be in shit

if their arguement is well its apples devices, then why are you even so called buying any of those devices if they are apples? once a consumer buys it, its theirs isnt it not apples? now if you were given them for free because you want to pay for apples service is another story

and could argue ps and xbox is their platforms etc etc, but they also let you buy physical discs and even keys from other places

 

[Blademaster91]

34 minutes ago, pas008 said:

imagine if microsoft or google did force update for their operating systems to make only option to get apps is through their store? how fast would they be in shit

if their arguement is well its apples devices, then why are you even so called buying any of those devices if they are apples? once a consumer buys it, its theirs isnt it not apples? now if you were given them for free because you want to pay for apples service is another story

and could argue ps and xbox is their platforms etc etc, but they also let you buy physical discs and even keys from other places

 

Yeah didn't Google do the same thing as Apple and remove Epic games from the play store? Everyone gave Google so much crap for that, or Microsoft with Windows 10S that forced you to use their store, they got criticized for that. But Apple? Nope, somehow they get the excuse that its their devices,their store.

I agree, if it's Apple's device and store, then it's not yours and you're paying $1000 to rent it until you trade it in for a new one.

[Obioban]

I'm buying at least 5, probably 8 because of the 4 packs. Currently thinking... 

-one for the dog, in case he gets out 

-one for each car, as a budget lowjack. 

 

... and will likely put the remaining 3 on commonly used car keys (I can't stand key rings dangling as I drive, so need one per car key).

 

Having every iPhone walking around scanning for these makes it extremely unlikely anything will ever stay lost, wherever you lose it! 

 

Non blind Apple haters should love this product, as it addresses what people dislike about Apple-- user serviceable (user replaceable battery) and priced to undercut what's already on the market!