Tile bashes Apple’s new AirTag as unfair competition. It will be asking Congress on Wednesday to take a closer look into Apple

[wanderingfool2]

4 hours ago, Vangeli said:

Also, you don’t need to buy a holder, many bags and purses have a tiny coin pocket at the front, for instance. I don’t mind spending more on pretty things, though.

That still would make it the "same" price, not cheaper like you said.  Also, Tile offers button style ones as well (guess what, it's only $60...so $30 cheaper than Apples).

 

4 hours ago, Vangeli said:

That market figure is current sales, not installed base. Android is behemoth.

...keep telling yourself that....

https://www.statista.com/statistics/236550/percentage-of-us-population-that-own-a-iphone-smartphone/

We are looking at US numbers, and the amount of purchases of Apps is higher on Apple than it is on Android.

 

4 hours ago, Vangeli said:

The ultra wide-band sensor has been on the iPhone for two years and Tile hasn’t bothered to make a product with it and successfully convince Android partners to add such sensors to their devices given how useful and key to their product development it must be? They’ve just been waiting for Apple to do something more with it so they can complain

You are missing the key point, they don't have access to the U1 which would allow them to utilize the UWB for location tracking.  It's like giving someone a prototype unreleased video card and saying they should be able to get next gen numbers because they have the video card.  It doesn't work that way, they need proper access to do that...one that Apple apparently is reserving until after they release their product ahead of Tile.

 

  

19 minutes ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

I don't think it's fair to make an argument on price based off personal preference, especially when you glance over a cheaper option and bold the more expensive option

The $140 is the ones that they show in the stock photos.  The cheaper one $51.80 for 4 isn't shown in any of the stock photos, and the cheaper yellow one yes is cheaper but still $116 which is more than the devices.  It's to the direct comment as well that it's cheaper, which it in no way is cheaper.

  

24 minutes ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

You also forget the scenario where you may not need a keychain, for instance, tracking a bag or an instrument case.

I didn't forget it.  Tile offers a similar button style for $60 for 4, but the claim that AirTags are cheaper is what I was arguing mainly.

 

Ultimately I think that Tile is arguing that Apple is enriching themselves as a competitor by using analytical data they have access to, while limiting access to key features that will distinguish AirTags vs Tile's product.

 

[NotTheFirstDaniel]

24 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

We are looking at US numbers, and the amount of purchases of Apps is higher on Apple than it is on Android.

I don't mean to butt in on this conversation, but are either Apple Find My or Tile's network region locked to the US? If not, what's the point of only getting US numbers? From what I have seen, the only reason why Apple owns a large percentage of the US market is because of the lack of regulation in the telecommunications industry. You have companies like ATT and Verizon giving away iPhone 12s for free, for the cost of long-lasting contracts that often are more of a hassle to get out of then get into, unlike with most other countries where you buy a phone unlocked with no added incentives, which would give mid-range and low-end phones a purpose in the market.

28 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

Ultimately I think that Tile is arguing that Apple is enriching themselves as a competitor by using analytical data they have access to, while limiting access to key features that will distinguish AirTags vs Tile's product.

Wouldn't Tile need a subpoena to prove that has happened? It's all well and good to give hypotheticals, but until you prove that Apple used insider information to craft a competitor, that's all it is. And if it comes out that Apple did not do this, they're locking themselves in with a bad argument.

[Vangeli]

2 hours ago, pas008 said:

Would Apple even have considered stealing this if they didn't have iOS market data on this?

Ok dominant position abuse right lol

Tile has been doing Bluetooth trackers for eight years but Nokia beat them to the punch with their own tag tracker. A small Bluetooth chit with an app that records where and when it was last connected isn’t some novel idea.

 

And again, U1 was out for nearly two years but Tile sat on their hands until Apple did something with it. They could’ve gone to Google or Samsung or whatever and worked toward having ultra wide-band radios in other products then developed and proven them useful in their Tile trackers and made great leaps themselves but no, Apple first spends years engineering the software, concept, and UI for essentially the next generation of trackers and then Tile complains that they’re not sharing. Apple needs to change some of their policies but I have no sympathy for Tile here.

 

Also, I’d hate to see what Facebook or Google would do with access to a hyper precise and hyper connected device location tracking network; in hindsight I’m glad Apple has that on lockdown.

[wanderingfool2]

4 hours ago, Vangeli said:

And again, U1 was out for nearly two years but Tile sat on their hands until Apple did something with it

You are wrong again.  Tile is complaining because they haven't been given the same level of access to it that Apple is utilizing.

 

U1 has been in phones for 2 years, but in no way does that mean Tile has had access to it.  They didn't even open up standard access to developers until IOS14 (Sept 2020), which is a far cry from 2 years (i.e. 7 months tops) and that might not even be the full access that Tile needs.  Glancing over the API and description, as of Sep. 2020 Apple only allows tracking of bluetooth precise locations of other phones.  (https://developer.apple.com/documentation/nearbyinteraction) So again, Apple using it to detect AirTags would put them at an advantage if they aren't allowing the same level access to Tile (despite that Tile has requested access a while ago).  So Apple is essentially beating to market for U1 enhanced devices.

 

5 hours ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

I don't mean to butt in on this conversation, but are either Apple Find My or Tile's network region locked to the US? If not, what's the point of only getting US numbers? From what I have seen, the only reason why Apple owns a large percentage of the US market is because of the lack of regulation in the telecommunications industry. You have companies like ATT and Verizon giving away iPhone 12s for free, for the cost of long-lasting contracts that often are more of a hassle to get out of then get into, unlike with most other countries where you buy a phone unlocked with no added incentives, which would give mid-range and low-end phones a purpose in the market.

It's not a problem :) I am using US numbers, instead of global numbers because this is a case that will play out in the US.  Anti-trust can depend on US data (instead of global data).

 

5 hours ago, NotTheFirstDaniel said:

Wouldn't Tile need a subpoena to prove that has happened? It's all well and good to give hypotheticals, but until you prove that Apple used insider information to craft a competitor, that's all it is. And if it comes out that Apple did not do this, they're locking themselves in with a bad argument.

Yea, they would but wouldn't get one (given there really isn't proof)...at least for the insider information.  The bigger thing is if Apple dragged their heels on giving access to U1 while utilizing it in a competing product it would create issues for Apple (in that they are using their power to enrich themselves)

[AnonymousGuy]

22 hours ago, wanderingfool2 said:

(in that they are using their power to enrich themselves)

Basically describing how every business makes money   You're basically arguing that every business should be forced to open source everything they do?  Good luck with that.

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, AnonymousGuy said:

Basically describing how every business makes money   You're basically arguing that every business should be forced to open source everything they do?  Good luck with that.

If they control a market it gets complicated though.  Not all businesses control their market.  It is a good way to become insanely rich.  It’s also often illegal.

[PineyCreek]

Honestly the scenario would be far more convenient if all tracking tags used a standardized, anonymized, encrypted protocol that you could opt-in/out on all mobile devices (to make you part of the mesh)...that way you could base purchasing solely on the quality of the tracking item itself.  That would open up plenty of other questions though.

 

I totally understand Tile fighting tooth-and-nail against it, but it's another instance of the Apple name carrying weight among certain people, along with the baked-in advantage of the existing Apple ecosystem. Google could do the same thing across a large base as well.  There's nothing much preventing Google from selling their tracking tool for example and baking the option into base Android either, unless there's something preventing it in fine print legalese somewhere...

 

...but honestly, a user-replaceable battery is awesome.

[hishnash]

7 hours ago, PineyCreek said:

encrypted protocol that you could opt-in/out on all mobile devices

The key issue is where do you send that capture info, who runs the centralise location that collocates all these reports. Or do you let the tracker provide a URL that you connect to and upload (this is risky since just start a TCP connection leaks info (IP ADDR, SSL version etc these are already used to track people) about you to the server, so you would not want random devices in the world triggering your phone to make random TCP connections to random servers they suggest you connect to).

The other side of it is the validation that the tokens behave as users expect them, one thing apple have over tiles network is that apple have gone out of their way to ensure you can't use these things to stalk someone but tile on the other hand have done nothing in this area even through they have been making these devices for years (almost like they want to capitalise on the stalker market). 

[RejZoR]

7 hours ago, PineyCreek said:

Honestly the scenario would be far more convenient if all tracking tags used a standardized, anonymized, encrypted protocol that you could opt-in/out on all mobile devices (to make you part of the mesh)...that way you could base purchasing solely on the quality of the tracking item itself.  That would open up plenty of other questions though.

 

I totally understand Tile fighting tooth-and-nail against it, but it's another instance of the Apple name carrying weight among certain people, along with the baked-in advantage of the existing Apple ecosystem. Google could do the same thing across a large base as well.  There's nothing much preventing Google from selling their tracking tool for example and baking the option into base Android either, unless there's something preventing it in fine print legalese somewhere...

 

...but honestly, a user-replaceable battery is awesome.

You can be assured Google will eventually create such a thing and stick it in every Android device. Coz yay to tracking!

[Bombastinator]

3 hours ago, RejZoR said:

You can be assured Google will eventually create such a thing and stick it in every Android device. Coz yay to tracking!

Yep.  Will be the same as apples except it will have a mic and you can’t turn off the bits that tell The company about your activities.

[Senzelian]

Gotta say, those Air Tags are pretty neat, especially with that "close range detection system" (or whatever it's called) that they have for the newer iPhones.

I wish Google will offer something like this for their Pixel phones in the near future.

[Bombastinator]

7 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

Gotta say, those Air Tags are pretty neat, especially with that "close range detection system" (or whatever it's called) that they have for the newer iPhones.

I wish Google will offer something like this for their Pixel phones in the near future.

Has existed for years if you e got a Samsung phone.  There’s probably still stuff now if you dont

[Senzelian]

24 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Has existed for years if you e got a Samsung phone.

I'm done with Samsung.

And does their tech offer the same accuracy as the air tag?

I often lose stuff in very close proximity to me, so it'd be nice to pinpoint where the item is that I'm looking for.

[RejZoR]

It's a bit funny how a lot of people complain it's unfair, yet this is how everything works. Not just mobile phones industry. It's with cars too and home appliances and TV's and bunch of other stuff. Someone makes a new product and others just straight up copy it because it's not patented or they get inspired by it and use other venues to achieve same or similar result. I mean just look at the AiO coolers market. Asetek owns the patent for block and pump combo.  This didn't stop other companies from putting pumps into radiators instead, like MSI's did it. Or on the hoses between the block and radiator like BeQuiet did it. Or at the end of the radiator like EK did it.

 

I bet Apple was like, we have a massive "sensor" network. We can totally make it even better and majority of users appreciates built in functionality. It's how Android evolved, by getting more and more built in features that were previously only available in custom ROM's or apps. And it probably will be because of that. What Tile can do is make it more advanced with more "fiddly" options. Because Apple won't ever venture into that field because they make products for the masses, not for expert or advanced users. Question is, can Tile even do any of that with just Bluetooth proximity sensing. Coz they could totally make it like extended range NFC functionality. So your phone behaves different when it's near Tile X than when it's near Tile Y. So you could use Tiles as reverse functionality. Remember those NFC tags that you could put in a car and when you placed phone on top of it phone switched to "Driving" mode where it automatically enabled "Do not disturb" and connected with whatever automatically? But again, that would be Apple's territory again with the U1 chip and its accurate position sensing. I don't think Tile can even do it with BT only.

[Commodus]

12 hours ago, Senzelian said:

I'm done with Samsung.

And does their tech offer the same accuracy as the air tag?

I often lose stuff in very close proximity to me, so it'd be nice to pinpoint where the item is that I'm looking for.

Samsung just recently put out a SmartTag+ tracker with UWB, although Apple may take better advantage by giving you such clear directions when you're close enough for UWB to work. That and Samsung's gadget is $40 versus Apple's $29, although the SmartTag+ has a hole so you don't need to buy an accessory to put it on a keyring or backpack.

[Bombastinator]

13 hours ago, Senzelian said:

I'm done with Samsung.

And does their tech offer the same accuracy as the air tag?

I often lose stuff in very close proximity to me, so it'd be nice to pinpoint where the item is that I'm looking for.

I’ve never used the Samsung stuff so I don’t know. There should be other tile competitors available for android though.  The only system I’ve ever actually used is tile for iPhone.  That on had a less specific pointer that would get you within a few feet, whereupon the beeping of the tile would allow exact locating. You could also take a tile and use it to make your phone beep.  That of course had no directionality but the phone was capable of much louder beeping. 
 

I suspect there are multiple such systems available for android, all of which will work slightly differently.  This appears to be the case for iPhone as well even before Apple produced airtags.

Edited May 2, 2021 by Bombastinator

[Spindel]

On 5/2/2021 at 11:26 AM, RejZoR said:

*snip*...I mean just look at the AiO coolers market. Asetek owns the patent for block and pump combo.  This didn't stop other companies from putting pumps into radiators instead, like MSI's did it. Or on the hoses between the block and radiator like BeQuiet did it. Or at the end of the radiator like EK did it.

 

It just boggles my mind that they could even patent a thing like "putting the pump in the CPU block". It's like patenting putting a stove in the kitchen. 

 

EDIT:// Sorry for derailing the thread

[RejZoR]

2 hours ago, Spindel said:

It just boggles my mind that they could even patent a thing like "putting the pump in the CPU block". It's like patenting putting a stove in the kitchen. 

 

EDIT:// Sorry for derailing the thread

Most patents are really just straight up trolling. Whole patent system is really weird these days. In the past when someone really designed something groundbreaking, it protected your design so your invention was really yours. And there was a lot of things to invent. These days, all industries are so saturated with everything it's hard to even create something that doens't resemble an existing stuff. And only big corporations can churn out patents and sit on them where small inventors just don't stand a chance.

[wanderingfool2]

On 5/2/2021 at 2:26 AM, RejZoR said:

It's a bit funny how a lot of people complain it's unfair, yet this is how everything works.

The way Apple did it though is a bit contrived though.  They didn't give access to the chip to be able to detect close objects (unless they of course use Apple's "Find My" api, which then means you sacrifice adding users to your own finding network...so it further would lock them into dependency on Apple, instead of Android and Apple).  They also are the ones charging their cut for the subscription as well.

 

Instead of the radiator example, it's more like Intel saying "lets lock overclocking to only intel motherboards, unless you pay Intel 15% for each motherboard you make"

Or it's also akin to how Windows tried forcing out their competition with IE (by tightly integrating it into Windows).

[pas008]

28 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

The way Apple did it though is a bit contrived though.  They didn't give access to the chip to be able to detect close objects (unless they of course use Apple's "Find My" api, which then means you sacrifice adding users to your own finding network...so it further would lock them into dependency on Apple, instead of Android and Apple).  They also are the ones charging their cut for the subscription as well.

 

Instead of the radiator example, it's more like Intel saying "lets lock overclocking to only intel motherboards, unless you pay Intel 15% for each motherboard you make"

Or it's also akin to how Windows tried forcing out their competition with IE (by tightly integrating it into Windows).

not only the access to the chip

but using their data from app developers/creators/ideas/etc to compete with them in markets they can easily take over

developers/creators/etc have nothing to protect them on ios