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Bloomberg’s source spills the beans on Apple’s 2021-2022 CPUs and it’s crazy

saltycaramel
By saltycaramel
in Tech News
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Maybe, but I don't trust Bloomberg at all after the shit show they pulled with the chinese spy chips apparently in every super micro motherboard 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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Posted
4 hours ago, Spindel said:

HOLY SHIT!

 

(if true)

We already have have gpu's with over 10000 "cores". It's nothing special

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2 minutes ago, Results45 said:

9700K performance in what could be a 48W package!!?

 

Not surprising, but it will be insanely good.

 

Screenshot_20201207_111815.thumb.jpg.bc9f3f737ec1e61e42b6c6a867e6896f.jpg

 

His eyes aren't bloodshot enough for him to be high :D

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21 minutes ago, jaslion said:

We already have have gpu's with over 10000 "cores". It's nothing special

It’s not the core count per se I reacted to. It is more that the performance of 8 cores is known. If it scales linearly 16 times we are about 25-30% above (current) top performance. 


EDIT:// brain fart

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17 minutes ago, jaslion said:

We already have have gpu's with over 10000 "cores". It's nothing special

In this context “core” likely means a complete compute unit.

 

Whatever it means, our point of reference is that current M1 Macs have 7 or 8 of these “cores”, hence the excitement if one infers linearly 8-fold or 16-fold today’s M1 gpu performance. 

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Would be kind of weird if they didn't have higher core count parts in the pipeline... what, you expected them to sell quad core 10k$ mac pros?

 

As for performance, bear in mind that many of the advantages of the M1 in single core performance come from the FPGA - that's not guaranteed to scale with more cores.

Don't ask to ask, just ask... please 🤨

sudo chmod -R 000 /*

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5 hours ago, Spindel said:

HOLY SHIT!

 

(if true)

Indeed. If you’re Apple and it works, why wouldn’t you totally annihilate the PC market? They were always a generation behind because Intel and Nvidia wouldn’t play ball with them.

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7 minutes ago, Sauron said:

As for performance, bear in mind that many of the advantages of the M1 in single core performance come from the FPGA - that's not guaranteed to scale with more cores.

[Citation Needed]

 

What you wrote doesn't even make sense. The M1 does not have an FPGA in it. If you are referring to hardware accelerators like the video encoder and decoder, or crypto engine, then those are not accounted for in most tests, for example Geekbench or Cinebench don't use any hardware accelerators at all in their normal tests. Geekbench has a crypto test which uses some hardware accelerators, but the same can be said for Intel and AMD, and that is its own separate score so you can easily ignore it. The Firestorm cores are near Zen3 level without any hardware acceleration. When you add the hardware acceleration on top then it is faster than a lot of other chips in tasks.

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2 hours ago, BuckGup said:

Maybe, but I don't trust Bloomberg at all after the shit show they pulled with the chinese spy chips apparently in every super micro motherboard 

You can generally trust Bloomberg on Apple rumors. Mark Gurman is formerly of 9to5Mac and is legendary for having accurate sources in the Apple pipeline. He's also good at making clear when there's some uncertainty (such as the core counts for the MBP/iMac chip).

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2 hours ago, Spindel said:

It’s not the core count per se I reacted to. It is more that the performance of 8 cores is known. If it scales linearly 16 times we are about 25-30% above (current) top performance. 

So, what does it tell you about the chances that it scales linearly? 

Their current GPU has competitors in the same performance range. How do those competitors scale to obtain the current top performing GPUs? 

 

"Scaling" and "core" are architecture-dependent, though. Modern GPUs have thousands of "cuda cores" or "stream processors", so those seem to scale pretty well, but at the same time, Vega barely benefited from 64 "CUs" vs 56 "CUs" due to other constraints. 

The performance of these rumored parts could be anything. We'll see. 

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As far as memory on high end models. They could just go HBM based, some of the newest HBM specs allow for some really insane capacities, so getting a few TB on there isn't unreasonable. They might not of course but it would be an interesting solution, especially if they have the GPU share it.

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2 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

ren't they? To be clear, I'm being half facetious half serious here but there is conjecture that says otherwise. Sure its nothing we know factually but Apple are well known for planned obsolescence, they're famous for not wanting to repair anything and instead insisting the customers just buys a new one and they're leading the charge against R2R.

 

I wouldn't say they're doing anything out of spite but they certainly seem pretty hellbent on making their devices exclusive, expensive and non user serviceable.

Eh, the "planned obsolescence" strategy is usually more fantasy than reality. Apple cuts off support more aggressively than Microsoft does, but there's no evidence it intentionally worsens the experience to prompt premature upgrades. Even the iPhone CPU throttling was done to extend the longevity of the phone, not push people to early upgrades (Apple's problems were the absences of transparency and control, not its intent).

 

Apple is happy to repair things... it's just that many of its repairs now tend to involve replacing whole mainboards due to that integrated design.

 

2 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

How long did they go trying to convince the professional market that a laptop was enough for them? How long did they go without updating the trashcan Mac Pro?

Apple... didn't? It did point out over a decade ago that the market was shifting toward laptops, but I haven't seen Apple try to claim that no one needed a desktop.

 

The 2013 Mac Pro was probably a factor in Apple's decision to switch to ARM. Apple acknowledged that it "designed itself into a corner" with the thermals and couldn't upgrade to newer power-hungry Xeons or GPUs. Not that I'd expect Apple to return to the cylinder after going back to modular Mac Pros, but I'm sure it's eager to have workstation-class chips that don't require gigantic cooling systems and 1.4kW power supplies.

 

2 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Ever considered that they made the switch because of this fact? I;m not suggesting it was the only reason but the architectural design of ARM and its reliance on SOCs does seem to align with their current ethos more than "traditional" architectural design.

I'd considered it, but... nah. Apple's guiding light for the past two decades has been its desire to prevent third parties from having too much control over its fate, and Intel's stumble was clearly the biggest problem. Using SoCs is a mixed bag as it's great for low-power laptops and desktops, but introduces a new set of headaches for higher-end computers (as there are many features Apple never had to introduce on phones and tablets).

 

I look at it the way you might with Apple's decision to roll its own DRM when the iTunes Store came out. People complained that this was anti-consumer, that Apple should have waited to sell unprotected songs or gone with a more commonly used DRM format like Microsoft's Plays For Sure... but in practice, it was choosing the best option. In both cases, Apple could launch a timely, feature-rich product without chaining its future to another company.

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17 minutes ago, SpaceGhostC2C said:

Their current GPU has competitors in the same performance range.

 

Has it tho? Per Watt?

We sure Intel Xe in Tiger Lake 15W and AMD Renoir 15W mobile APUs are competitive compared to the M1 GPU in a Macbook Pro or even Air?

 

GFXBench Aztec Ruins High (1440p offscreen) does double the fps on M1 compared to the latest 15W Intel/AMD offerings, if my google skills are worth anything...that’s a single data point, still..

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This term “half sized” is vague to me.  It could mean all sorts of things.

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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3 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

This term “half sized” is vague to me.  It could mean all sorts of things.

I don't think there's too much mystery to it myself. Apple won't need nearly as much space with an ARM chip (the gigantic cooling block and fan system are largely there for the Xeon), so it can shrink the design without compromising on speed. Hopefully it doesn't compromise on expansion, either.

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6 minutes ago, Commodus said:

I don't think there's too much mystery to it myself. Apple won't need nearly as much space with an ARM chip (the gigantic cooling block and fan system are largely there for the Xeon), so it can shrink the design without compromising on speed. Hopefully it doesn't compromise on expansion, either.

Doesn’t change the size of an effective keyboard or screen though.  You seem to be describing “thin and light” which is potentially different from “half sized”  do they want to make 10” netbooks then?  Does this mean smaller mac minis?  Smaller Mac pros?  It’s vague.  Half sized man’s a lot less of something.  Could be any number of somethings.

Edited by Bombastinator

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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While Intel gets less than 10% of its revenue from furnishing Apple with Mac chips, the rest of its PC business is liable to face turbulence if the iPhone maker is able to deliver demonstrably better-performing computers. It could accelerate a shakeup in an industry that has long been dependent on Intel’s pace of innovation. For Apple, the move sheds that dependency, deepens its distinction from the rest of the PC market and gives it a chance to add to its small, but growing share in PCs.

--------

Less than 10% implying 9-point something percent? If so, this is a major blow for Intel (bigger than I thought). So Intel will return to the pre-Apple days at some point. In any case, I am not buying until I see at least 4 high-power cores dedicated to spying on me. https://sneak.berlin/20201112/your-computer-isnt-yours/

 

Some would say Microsoft and Google have premium spyware. Can Apple compete?

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Commodus said:

Eh, the "planned obsolescence" strategy is usually more fantasy than reality. Apple cuts off support more aggressively than Microsoft does, but there's no evidence it intentionally worsens the experience to prompt premature upgrades. Even the iPhone CPU throttling was done to extend the longevity of the phone, not push people to early upgrades (Apple's problems were the absences of transparency and control, not its intent).

 

Apple is happy to repair things... it's just that many of its repairs now tend to involve replacing whole mainboards due to that integrated design.

 

Apple... didn't? It did point out over a decade ago that the market was shifting toward laptops, but I haven't seen Apple try to claim that no one needed a desktop.

 

The 2013 Mac Pro was probably a factor in Apple's decision to switch to ARM. Apple acknowledged that it "designed itself into a corner" with the thermals and couldn't upgrade to newer power-hungry Xeons or GPUs. Not that I'd expect Apple to return to the cylinder after going back to modular Mac Pros, but I'm sure it's eager to have workstation-class chips that don't require gigantic cooling systems and 1.4kW power supplies.

 

I'd considered it, but... nah. Apple's guiding light for the past two decades has been its desire to prevent third parties from having too much control over its fate, and Intel's stumble was clearly the biggest problem. Using SoCs is a mixed bag as it's great for low-power laptops and desktops, but introduces a new set of headaches for higher-end computers (as there are many features Apple never had to introduce on phones and tablets).

 

I look at it the way you might with Apple's decision to roll its own DRM when the iTunes Store came out. People complained that this was anti-consumer, that Apple should have waited to sell unprotected songs or gone with a more commonly used DRM format like Microsoft's Plays For Sure... but in practice, it was choosing the best option. In both cases, Apple could launch a timely, feature-rich product without chaining its future to another company.

 

Aggressively cutting off the support is the very definition of planned obsolescence though. 

 

That said IMO apple's strategy has allways been to target people that just need somthing that works. i.e. the average joe home user and certain sections of the HEDT market. They have no interest in trying to serve power users, or the rest of the workstation market, never mind actual server level stuff. But the tradeoff is they tend to do a very good job of serving the needs of that subset of people, precisely because they don't have to meet the need of all those other people.  In terms of comparing a typical PC to an Apple Computer using the recent LTT Secret Shopper as an example a Windows system is an iBuyPower System, whilst an Apple Computer is an Origin System.

 

It means Apple has a much easier time doing well by the people it aims towards, but short of a sudden and unprecedented collapse of Microsoft that takes windows with it Apple is never going to take over the entire or probably the majority of the computer market.

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15 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

I get the feeling the transition to ARM is Apple trying to get out ahead of Right To Repair. If everything is directly soldered to the board they can claim the user has no need to ever open the system since they can't really fix anything without a soldering iron and microsoldering skills. I realise that's a jaded opinion but Apples behaviour recently has been anything but consumer friendly.

That’s not what right to repair is about. It’s about not forcing consumers to go through the manufacturer for repairs. 
 

Whether or not something is easily repaired is not something that anyone is trying to change because the government is never going to step in and say “Hey Nintendo, here’s a list of mainboard components that can’t be soldered. Suck it!”. 

MacBook Pro 16 - i9-9980HK - Radeon Pro 5500m 8GB - 32GB DDR4 - 2TB NVME

iPhone 12 Mini / Sony WH-1000XM4 / Bose Companion 20

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14 hours ago, Spindel said:

And if we assume that the 8 GPU cores today consume about 15 W (it's probably a little less but anyway) that gives a power draw of about 240 W witch is also in line with Nvidia top offering (today).  

My Mac mini M1 arrived today and did some testing. M1 GPU in Mac mini has around 8 watts of power budget. While driving 2x 4K60 monitors it consumes 10 mW as reported by `sudo powermetrics`. Blows my mind. 

 

However, I tried to use LuxMark v3.1 to determine OpenCL performance but it only consumed less than 5 watts, scoring 6815 in the default Ball scene. This is roughly equivalent to 2/3 of native OpenCL performance of Radeon Pro 5300M (1280SP+4GB/GD6) found on base 16-inch MBPs with 50 watts of TGP. 

2042757576_ScreenShot2020-12-08at4_04_29pm.thumb.png.da2ac571081fa33ccb972e254ea13cc9.png

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9 minutes ago, bruhsfx2 said:

My Mac mini M1 arrived today and did some testing. M1 GPU in Mac mini has around 8 watts of power budget. While driving 2x 4K60 monitors it consumes 10 mW as reported by `sudo powermetrics`. Blows my mind. 

 

However, I tried to use LuxMark v3.1 to determine OpenCL performance but it only consumed less than 5 watts, scoring 6815 in the default Ball scene. This is roughly equivalent to 2/3 of native OpenCL performance of Radeon Pro 5300M (1280SP+4GB/GD6) found on base 16-inch MBPs with 50 watts of TGP. 

2042757576_ScreenShot2020-12-08at4_04_29pm.thumb.png.da2ac571081fa33ccb972e254ea13cc9.png

I was being generous towards the competition :P

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7 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

Doesn’t change the size of an effective keyboard or screen though.  You seem to be describing “thin and light” which is potentially different from “half sized”  do they want to make 10” netbooks then?  Does this mean smaller mac minis?  Smaller Mac pros?  It’s vague.  Half sized man’s a lot less of something.  Could be any number of somethings.

 

“Half sized” is referring to the tower Mac Pro exclusively.

 

Like if the current Mac Pro was E-ATX sized and the half-size one is mini-ITX or microATX. 

 

It does not apply to any other Mac. No half-sized Macbooks. As for the Mini, we’ll see, but I think 1) internal PSU and 2) drop-in backward compatibility for rack mounting are things dear to Apple’s heart when it comes to the Mini. 

 

My question is: is the “mini-ITX” Mac Pro a new category of desktop Mac not meant to supersede the “E-ATX” Mac Pro, so we’ll eventually ALSO see a new (M3-based) “E-ATX” Mac Pro at the end of 2022 (just in time to make the statement about completing the transition in 2022 true)?

 

A previous report by Bloomberg said it’s “unclear” if the “mini-ITX” M2 MacPro is meant be sold alongside the full sized Xeon one or to supersede it.

 

Apple engineers are currently developing a new Mac Pro that looks like the current design at about half the size. It’s unclear if that Mac will replace the current Mac Pro or if it’s an additional model. 

 

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Imagine Apple finally giving enthusiast home users the “better than a Mini, but less than a full size Mac Pro” middle-sized headless desktop Mac they have been asking for 10-15 years now.

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16 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

Imagine Apple finally giving enthusiast home users the “better than a Mini, but less than a full size Mac Pro” middle-sized headless desktop Mac they have been asking for 10-15 years now.

I would even take a mini if it had a breakout box for a decent video card.

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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