Bloomberg’s source spills the beans on Apple’s 2021-2022 CPUs and it’s crazy

[saltycaramel]

28 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I would even take a mini if it had a breakout box for a decent video card.

You could buy today a MacMini i7-8700B 6-core desktop Coffee Lake + 64GB cheap aftermarket sodimm RAM + 10G ethernet + eGPU breakout box + 6900XT (as soon as macOS drivers for 6000-series are available, i.e. as soon as they refresh the Intel 16” MBP with Comet Lake-H and a mobile AMD 6000 GPU) and watch over the plebs with M1 Mac Minis limited to 16GB ram, Gigabit ethernet, only 2 monitors and broken backward compatibility for most games, while this whole transition thing is sorted out.

 

Or wait for a swan song, hail mary, last hurrah speedbump to the Intel Mini (65W Comet Lake?) to do all of this. 

 

 

[Bombastinator]

19 minutes ago, saltycaramel said:

You could buy today a MacMini i7-8700B 6-core desktop Coffee Lake + 64GB cheap aftermarket sodimm RAM + 10G ethernet + eGPU breakout box + 6900XT (as soon as macOS drivers for 6000-series are available, i.e. as soon as they refresh the Intel 16” MBP with Comet Lake-H and a mobile AMD 6000 GPU) and watch over the plebs with M1 Mac Minis limited to 16GB ram, Gigabit ethernet, only 2 monitors and broken backward compatibility for most games, while this whole transition thing is sorted out.

 

Or wait for a swan song, hail mary, last hurrah speedbump to the Intel Mini (65W Comet Lake?) to do all of this. 

 

 

If I wanted an intel Mac mini I’d already have one.  I was speaking solely about this “half size” Mac Pro thing. The Mac mini seems to generally have similar processors to the larger machines.  I think the max mini makes a decent “processor module” for a desktop.  The problem is the previous solution for a “graphics module” consisted of an egpu connected by thunderbolt and it had serious limitations.  I would be just as happy with some sort of breakout box with a high speed connection (would probably need to be at least double the thunderbolt egpu speed with less latency) as I would with a “half size” Mac pro

[Spindel]

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

Imagine Apple finally giving enthusiast home users the “better than a Mini, but less than a full size Mac Pro” middle-sized headless desktop Mac they have been asking for 10-15 years now.

Don't get your hopes up. If it is a Mac Pro replacement/compliment it will be a $5000 computer. 

[Master Disaster]

3 hours ago, Vitamanic said:

That’s not what right to repair is about. It’s about not forcing consumers to go through the manufacturer for repairs. 
 

Whether or not something is easily repaired is not something that anyone is trying to change because the government is never going to step in and say “Hey Nintendo, here’s a list of mainboard components that can’t be soldered. Suck it!”. 

That's exactly why Apple are doing what they're doing. Because they too know that no government is going to stop them from soldering everything to the board and locking everything behind a security chip, both of which allows them to neatly sidestep anything that comes out of R2R.

 

[saltycaramel]

33 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

That's exactly why Apple are doing what they're doing. Because they too know that no government is going to stop them from soldering everything to the board and locking everything behind a security chip, both of which allows them to neatly sidestep anything that comes out of R2R.

 

 

Explain me again why “soldering everything” is acceptable on

- smartphones

- tablets

- smart speakers

- TV

- fridge motherboard

- washing machine motherboard 

- etc.

 

and not on laptops and compact/AIO desktops

 

As for the security chip preventing tampering with parts of the system, security nowadays  is a huge problem and it will become even a bigger problem in the coming years...there’s a cost-benefits situation to accept in order to have better security..

[Master Disaster]

1 hour ago, saltycaramel said:

 

Explain me again why “soldering everything” is acceptable on

- smartphones

- tablets

- smart speakers

- TV

These devices have nothing the user would ever need to upgrade internally.

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- fridge motherboard

- washing machine motherboard 

- etc.

Simply put, even though I'm strongly behind the R2R movement I'm not dumb enough to suggest people should be allowed to mess with anything that mixes electricity and water. There will be exceptions for pretty obvious reasons, another one is gas and boilers which should only be serviced by trained professionals.

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and not on laptops and compact/AIO desktops

The ability to upgrade laptops & desktops is an established principle. Let me answer your question with another question.

 

If not to simply screw over the customer, what right does Apple have to tell people paying (typically) thousands of whatever currency the use for a device that they don't have the right, and shouldn't have the ability,, to upgrade their own device as they see fit?

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As for the security chip preventing tampering with parts of the system, security nowadays  is a huge problem and it will become even a bigger problem in the coming years...there’s a cost-benefits situation to accept in order to have better security..

The T2 is not about protecting the customers privacy or security, its about protecting their devices from independent repair and jailbreaks. Devices that they themselves REGULARLY refuse to service instead suggesting the customer just buys a new one and even in the cases where they do offer a repair even they cannot accomplish it without sacrificing all the customers data.

 

Sure they baked other things into it, such as (for god knows what reason) audio processing and control over encryption keys but guess what? The computing industry has had these things called TPMs for decades now that already handle this task without locking key repairable components and freaking cables to the device they shipped with. Apple has even used them in Macs in the past. Can you explain how swapping a screen, camera, touch bar or a cable, in any way, affects the customers security?

 

The only reason they baked security into the T2 is so they could spin it as a security improvement for the customer. In reality it seves to give them microcontrol over their devices after the point of sale.

 

I will admit this though, the Secure Enclave created by the T2 is pretty darn impressive.

 

The T2 chip is a solution to 2 problems, one that already has a (subjectively better) solution and another that was only a problem once Apple decided it was.

[Lord Vile]

10 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

These devices have nothing the user would ever need to upgrade internally.

You could upgrade the panel on a TV to make it 4K or HDR. Or upgrade the backlight.

10 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Simply put, even though I'm strongly behind the R2R movement I'm not dumb enough to suggest people should be allowed to mess with anything that mixes electricity and water. There will be exceptions for pretty obvious reasons, another one is gas and boilers which should only be serviced by trained professionals.

People can legitimately be killed by opening up AIOs and poorly repaired electronics can start fires.

10 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

The ability to upgrade laptops & desktops is an established principle. Let me answer your question with another question.

No it's not, SOME laptops are upgradeable and most desktops are. You can't buy either an assume it's upgradable, this has never been the case.

10 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

 

If not to simply screw over the customer, what right does Apple have to tell people paying (typically) thousands of whatever currency the use for a device that they don't have the right, and shouldn't have the ability,, to upgrade their own device as they see fit?

Because Apple makes the devices, if you don't like it you don't have to buy it. 

10 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

The T2 is not about protecting the customers privacy or security, its about protecting their devices from independent repair and jailbreaks. Devices that they themselves REGULARLY refuse to service instead suggesting the customer just buys a new one and even in the cases where they do offer a repair even they cannot accomplish it without sacrificing all the customers data.

Yes it is about privacy and security. That is literally it's function. You can claim things happen BECAUSE of it's function but those are not why it exists.

10 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

 

Sure they baked other things into it, such as (for god knows what reason) audio processing and control over encryption keys but guess what? The computing industry has had these things called TPMs for decades now that already handle this task without locking key repairable components and freaking cables to the device they shipped with. Apple has even used them in Macs in the past. Can you explain how swapping a screen, camera, touch bar or a cable, in any way, affects the customers security?

Touch bar includes touchID and the T2 hardware disconnects the camera, tampering with either could be an attempt to deal passwords or spy on the user. Remember mpst people take laptops into shops to get fixed, nothing stopping them putting in something nasty to scam you. 

10 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

 

The only reason they baked security into the T2 is so they could spin it as a security improvement for the customer. In reality it seves to give them microcontrol over their devices after the point of sale.

Apart from it doesn't. You don't have even have to boot through the T2 chip you can turn boot security off completely. 

10 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

 

I will admit this though, the Secure Enclave created by the T2 is pretty darn impressive.

 

The T2 chip is a solution to 2 problems, one that already has a (subjectively better) solution and another that was only a problem once Apple decided it was.

The T2 doesn't have to be used. You can all but turn it off and data recovery is literally a trip to the apple store away.

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, Lord Vile said:

You could upgrade the panel on a TV to make it 4K or HDR. Or upgrade the backlight.

People can legitimately be killed by opening up AIOs and poorly repaired electronics can start fires.

No it's not, SOME laptops are upgradeable and most desktops are. You can't buy either an assume it's upgradable, this has never been the case.

Because Apple makes the devices, if you don't like it you don't have to buy it. 

Yes it is about privacy and security. That is literally it's function. You can claim things happen BECAUSE of it's function but those are not why it exists.

Touch bar includes touchID and the T2 hardware disconnects the camera, tampering with either could be an attempt to deal passwords or spy on the user. Remember mpst people take laptops into shops to get fixed, nothing stopping them putting in something nasty to scam you. 

Apart from it doesn't. You don't have even have to boot through the T2 chip you can turn boot security off completely. 

The T2 doesn't have to be used. You can all but turn it off and data recovery is literally a trip to the apple store away.

*wants to know how a 12v DC AIO can legitimately kill someone without the thing used to say, beat them over the head or something*

[Lord Vile]

25 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

*wants to know how a 12v DC AIO can legitimately kill someone without the thing used to say, beat them over the head or something*

Wow you know nothing about electronics. Ever heard of a capacitor? iMacs use 2200uF Caps so you're talking 1000's of volts on those, bridge a contact and you're dead.

[Bombastinator]

13 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Wow you know nothing about electronics. Ever heard of a capacitor? iMacs use 2200uF Caps so you're talking 1000's of volts on those, bridge a contact and you're dead.

I sure don’t but in this case I don’t need to.  
 

Sure if the cap is big enough. The caps in PSUs are big enough.  They’re frequently the size of tomato paste cans.  There is a saying though. “It’s not the volts that kill you, it’s the amps”  there’s a kid that made a taser air gun by simply loading it to shoot capacitors.  He would sharpen the wires on the ends of the capacitors and shoot them points first.  His caps were 4 times the size of the stuff that could possibly be fit into an AIO and the problem it had was that not only was it non lethal it couldn’t even debilitate someone like a real taser could because it was good for only one jolt, while a real taser delivers multiple jolts which is what keeps people down.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Bombastinator

[Blademaster91]

53 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

*wants to know how a 12v DC AIO can legitimately kill someone without the thing used to say, beat them over the head or something*

If it has an external power brick you'd be fine, but with an imac that has a built in PSU you have to be extra careful because apple decided to save like 5 cents or whatever by not using a plastic or metal shielding over the PSU board.

[Lord Vile]

21 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I sure don’t but in this case I don’t need to.  
 

Sure if the cap is big enough. The caps in PSUs are big enough.  They’re frequently the size of tomato paste cans.  There is a saying though. “It’s not the volts that kill you, it’s the amps”  there’s a kid that made a taser air gun by simply loading it to shoot capacitors.  He would sharpen the wires on the ends of the capacitors and shoot them points first.  His caps were 4 times the size of the stuff that could possibly be fit into an AIO and the problem it had was that not only was it non lethal it couldn’t even debilitate someone like a real taser could because it was good for only one jolt, while a real taser delivers multiple jolts which is what keeps people down.

You were one one on about 12V want to get into amps but the current by far exceeds the amount required to kill you. 

[Bombastinator]

24 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

You were one one on about 12V want to get into amps but the current by far exceeds the amount required to kill you. 

The current in the caps of an AIO....  seems highly unlikely.  Capacitors have lousy energy density, and the capacitors in an AIO just aren’t that large.  Now leaving the thing PLUGGED IN as would be required to run it... that causes all sorts of issues.  AIO heads aren’t made to be waterproof from the outside. 

[Lord Vile]

11 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

The current in the caps of an AIO....  seems highly unlikely.  Capacitors have lousy energy density, and the capacitors in an AIO just aren’t that large.  Now leaving the thing PLUGGED IN as would be required to run it... that causes all sorts of issues.  AIO heads aren’t made to be waterproof from the outside. 

Unfortunately with PSUs capacitors and inductors live together 

[leadeater]

2 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

People can legitimately be killed by opening up AIOs and poorly repaired electronics can start fires.

No they shouldn't that is exceedingly unlikely. AIO's have either an external power supply or the power supply is contained in a non-serviceable PSU like every PSU we buy in our own computers. You're saying right here that we could be killed while building custom computers, sure it's technically possible..... but no.

[Bombastinator]

22 minutes ago, Lord Vile said:

Unfortunately with PSUs capacitors and inductors live together 

Which would matter perhaps except a PSU and an AIO are different things.

[Lord Vile]

1 minute ago, leadeater said:

No they shouldn't that is exceedingly unlikely. AIO's have either an external power supply or the power supply is contained in a non-serviceable PSU like every PSU we buy in our own computers. You're saying right here that we could be killed while building custom computers, sure it's technically possible..... but no.

This is the iMac Pro PSU. Do you not see the exposed, well, everything on that PCB? Would you call that an external PSU? Would you call it contained?

 

Please read the post before assuming and trying to be clever.

 

[Lord Vile]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

Which would matter perhaps except a PSU and an AIO are different things.

The PSU is contained WITHIN the AIO see above.

[Bombastinator]

Just now, Lord Vile said:

This is the iMac Pro PSU. Do you not see the exposed, well, everything on that PCB? Would you call that an external PSU? Would you call it contained?

 

Please read the post before assuming and trying to be clever.

 

So you want to dunk an iMac Pro, which doesn’t even have an AIO in it in the first place in a bucket?

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Lord Vile said:

Wow you know nothing about electronics. Ever heard of a capacitor? iMacs use 2200uF Caps so you're talking 1000's of volts on those, bridge a contact and you're dead.

That's not how capacitance works. A capacitor has a rated voltage, you can charge it to a certain voltage, anything you like below the maximum. The amount of energy stored is the capacitance, the uF of the capacitor.

 

A 12v 100uF capacitor charged to 12v is 12 volts. A 12v 1000uF capacitor charged to 12v is 12 volts. There are no high voltage capacitors in any computer, the highest you will find is in the PSU and that depends on country as to the actual charged voltage but nothing will be above 500V.

[Lord Vile]

Just now, Bombastinator said:

So you want to dunk an iMac Pro, which doesn’t even have an AIO in it in the first place in a bucket?

AIO. All in One PC.

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, Lord Vile said:

The PSU is contained WITHIN the AIO see above.

there seems to be a conflation of the term AIO here.  The thread is about AIO liquid coolers not AIO computers.  An iMac could be considered an “AIO” computer, but that’s not the subject. 
 

An AIO (cooler) head is about the size of between 1 and 2 hockey pucks and is generally fed 12v DC from the motherboard.  A PSU is that big black square thing with the mess of cables hanging off it. Is there some voltage adjustment in an aio?  Possibly.  It doesn’t have to be done that way but I suppose it could.  A PSU is a 110v (or I suppose up to 240v) ac rectifier.  Totally different thing.

[Master Disaster]

2 hours ago, Lord Vile said:

You could upgrade the panel on a TV to make it 4K or HDR. Or upgrade the backlight.

No you couldn't. You're grasping at straws to try and save your sinking ship.

Quote

People can legitimately be killed by opening up AIOs and poorly repaired electronics can start fires.

I'm sorry but what? Not even gonna bother responding to this except to say your currently talking on a forum that exists to help out newcomers build and open up their computers.

Quote

No it's not, SOME laptops are upgradeable and most desktops are. You can't buy either an assume it's upgradable, this has never been the case.

Even the cheapest laptop will let you swap out the HDD and/or RAM down the road. Shit my £200 HP special currently has 16GB of RAM and a 512GB SSD on top of the 128GB M.2 it came with. Saying its always been the case that you cannot expect to be able to upgrade your PC is factually wrong.

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Because Apple makes the devices, if you don't like it you don't have to buy it.

And after they make it they then sell it to me, legally ownership transfers to me and I can do whatever the hell I want with it, except in the case of the company that sells devices that are WAAAY overpriced who think its OK to tell me what I can and cannot do with my device.

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Yes it is about privacy and security. That is literally it's function. You can claim things happen BECAUSE of it's function but those are not why it exists.

Agree to disagree, since neither one of us can cite proof that we're correct this becomes an impasse.

Quote

Touch bar includes touchID and the T2 hardware disconnects the camera, tampering with either could be an attempt to deal passwords or spy on the user. Remember mpst people take laptops into shops to get fixed, nothing stopping them putting in something nasty to scam you. 

And there's nothing stopping your local BMW dealer from fucking up your brake change and potentially killing you. Saying something should exist because IT MIGHT, in very isolated situations, hurt someone is a dangerous road.

Quote

Apart from it doesn't. You don't have even have to boot through the T2 chip you can turn boot security off completely. 

The T2 doesn't have to be used. You can all but turn it off and data recovery is literally a trip to the apple store away.

For now. We;ll see how long that lasts for and aside from that this argument actually backs up my claim. See you can disable the T2s customer security stuff from running at all but you cannot disable the thing locking components to the device they came with, Still wanna argue that the T2 was implemented to protect customers fingerprints over the components being replaced? Suddenly that argument seems to be on very thin ice.

[Lord Vile]

Just now, Bombastinator said:

there seems to be a conflation of the term AIO here.  The thread is about AIO liquid coolers not AIO computers.  An iMac could be considered an “AIO” computer, but that’s not the subject. 
 

An AIO (cooler) head is about the size of between 1 and 2 hockey pucks and is generally fed 12v DC from the motherboard.  A PSU is that big black square thing with the mess of cables hanging off it. Is there some voltage adjustment in an aio?  Possibly.  It doesn’t have to be done that way but I suppose it could.  A PSU is a 110v (or I suppose up to 240v) ac rectifier.  Totally different thing.

How is the thread abut liquid coolers you're on a thread about Apple silicon chips and future devices. 

[Bombastinator]

Just now, Lord Vile said:

How is the thread abut liquid coolers you're on a thread about Apple silicon chips and future devices. 

It’s following a digression about someone wanting to refill his AIO cooler. And someone suggested dunking it in a bucket.  Everything else grew out of that.