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California startup NDB, Inc. announces breakthrough in new battery technology

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Posted
49 minutes ago, StDragon said:

1.21 gigawatts? At least you won't have to worry about finding plutonium at a corner drugstore.

the mars rover has like 10 pounds of plutonium and it only generates about 100 watts. this has like a few grams of carbon 14 so im expecting like less than 1 watt

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Posted
43 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

the mars rover has like 10 pounds of plutonium and it only generates about 100 watts. this has like a few grams of carbon 14 so im expecting like less than 1 watt

In case you missed it.

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15 hours ago, Tech Enthusiast said:

"New breakthrough in battery tech",... again! And.... again! .... aaaaand again.

 

We have had like two dozen breakthroughs since we last changed what we use today, no? 😉

Which I exactly doubt because no more planned-obsolence. Phone manufacturers wants you to keep upgrading your phone every year and that applies the same to non-phone related stuff. 

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Posted

There have been MASSIVE BREAKTHROUGHs in battery tech articles since the late 90s. I have zero hope

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted
30 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

There have been MASSIVE BREAKTHROUGHs in battery tech articles since the late 90s. I have zero hope

There have been.  The one that mattered was getting lithium ion anodes to not form dendrites.  That gave us rechargeable liion that made electric cars suddenly reasonably useful, gave use useful drones, and put electric planes where electric cars were in the 1970’s. Just a bit to heavy and short ranged to be really useful except in special situations. 

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

There have been.  The one that mattered was getting lithium ion anodes to not form dendrites.  That gave us rechargeable liion that made electric cars suddenly reasonably useful, gave use useful drones, and put electric planes where electric cars were in the 1970’s. Just a bit to heavy and short ranged to be really useful except in special situations. 

Yes and no though. Lithium has been around for years. The transition from lead acid, to NiCad, to NiMH, to LiPo, to LifePo4, to Lion, and now all the variants with Lithium inside has been a process since the early 1800s and before. Mixed chemical batteries like lead acid have been found dating back to 150 AD and we still use lead acid today. Curiosity the Mars rover has a nuclear battery that has a lifespan of around 20-25 years but they are extremely expensive and the power output is relatively low. 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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10 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Yes and no though. Lithium has been around for years. The transition from lead acid, to NiCad, to NiMH, to LiPo, to LifePo4, to Lion, and now all the variants with Lithium inside has been a process since the early 1800s and before. Mixed chemical batteries like lead acid have been found dating back to 150 AD and we still use lead acid today. Curiosity the Mars rover has a nuclear battery that has a lifespan of around 20-25 years but they are extremely expensive and the power output is relatively low. 

Yes, but until recently rechargeable liion hasn’t been available.  There was lithium air which is still occasionally used.  It’s a lot like a non rechargeable lithium ion battery.  They’re stupid expensive though and are (were) only used for military applications where size and weight was critical.  Lithium air batteries actually have a grillwork on them to let the air in and are stored with a little stick on tab that covers the grillwork to activate the battery. 

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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3 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Yes, but until recently rechargeable liion hasn’t been available.  There was lithium air which is still occasionally used.  It’s a lot like a non rechargeable lithium ion battery.  They’re stupid expensive thoug and are (we’re) only used for military applications where size and weight was critical.  Lithium air batteries actually have a grillwork on them to let the air in and are stored with a little stick on tab that covers the grillwork to activate the battery. 

Interesting never heard of lithium air. LiPos have been around since 1991 so it's not extremely new

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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Posted
17 hours ago, twelveoclockglock said:

While this seems too good to be true, the concept of recycling waste from nuclear energy production into cheap, portable power is incredibly exciting.

(...)

Imagine an Echo Dot that can be placed anywhere in your home without needing a single cable, ......

 

I don't know what is more scary, nuclear fuel in my pocket..

 

or Amazon Echo dots hiding around my house.. 😵

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7 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Interesting never heard of lithium air. LiPos have been around since 1991 so it's not extremely new

Depends on how old you are.  Lithium air wasn’t common.  Only used for some military applications and very highe end hearing aids.  The little tabs turned out to be so handy for hearing aids that they even put them on other types of hearing aid batteries now.  My memory is lithium air can be even more powerful than lithium ion because it can use metallic lithium, and part of the battery (anode? Cathode? I forget) is the air around you.

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Depends on how old you are.  Lithium air wasn’t common.  Only used for some military applications and very highe end hearing aids.  The little tabs turned out to be so handy for hearing aids that they even put them on other types of hearing aid batteries now.

Wiki says Lithium air never hit the market until 1996 but the idea was introduced in the 1970s. So I would imagine the military tested it in the 70s to see if it was viable 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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̌̅̒̾̈́̆͌̌̾̎̽̐̅̏́̈̔͛̀̋̃͊̒̓͗͒̑͒̃͂̌̄̇̑̇͛̆̾͛̒̇̍̒̓̀̈́̄̐͂̍͊͗̎̔͌͛̂̏̉̊̎͗͊͒̂̈̽̊́̔̊̃͑̈́̑̌̋̓̅̔́́͒̄̈́̈̂͐̈̅̈̓͌̓͊́̆͌̉͐̊̉͛̓̏̓̅̈́͂̉̒̇̉̆̀̍̄̇͆͛̏̉̑̃̓͂́͋̃̆̒͋̓͊̄́̓̕̕̕̚͘͘͘̚̕̚͘̕̕͜͜͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͠ͅS̷̢̨̧̢̡̨̢̨̢̨̧̧̨̧͚̱̪͇̱̮̪̮̦̝͖̜͙̘̪̘̟̱͇͎̻̪͚̩͍̠̹̮͚̦̝̤͖̙͔͚̙̺̩̥̻͈̺̦͕͈̹̳̖͓̜͚̜̭͉͇͖̟͔͕̹̯̬͍̱̫̮͓̙͇̗̙̼͚̪͇̦̗̜̼̠͈̩̠͉͉̘̱̯̪̟͕̘͖̝͇̼͕̳̻̜͖̜͇̣̠̹̬̗̝͓̖͚̺̫͛̉̅̐̕͘͜͜͜͜ͅͅͅ.̶̨̢̢̨̢̨̢̛̻͙̜̼̮̝̙̣̘̗̪̜̬̳̫̙̮̣̹̥̲̥͇͈̮̟͉̰̮̪̲̗̳̰̫̙͍̦̘̠̗̥̮̹̤̼̼̩͕͉͕͇͙̯̫̩̦̟̦̹͈͔̱̝͈̤͓̻̟̮̱͖̟̹̝͉̰͊̓̏̇͂̅̀̌͑̿͆̿̿͗̽̌̈́̉̂̀̒̊̿͆̃̄͑͆̃̇͒̀͐̍̅̃̍̈́̃̕͘͜͜͝͠͠z̴̢̢̡̧̢̢̧̢̨̡̨̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̛̲͚̠̜̮̠̜̞̤̺͈̘͍̻̫͖̣̥̗̙̳͓͙̫̫͖͍͇̬̲̳̭̘̮̤̬̖̼͎̬̯̼̮͔̭̠͎͓̼̖̟͈͓̦̩̦̳̙̮̗̮̩͙͓̮̰̜͎̺̞̝̪͎̯̜͈͇̪̙͎̩͖̭̟͎̲̩͔͓͈͌́̿͐̍̓͗͑̒̈́̎͂̋͂̀͂̑͂͊͆̍͛̄̃͌͗̌́̈̊́́̅͗̉͛͌͋̂̋̇̅̔̇͊͑͆̐̇͊͋̄̈́͆̍̋̏͑̓̈́̏̀͒̂̔̄̅̇̌̀̈́̿̽̋͐̾̆͆͆̈̌̿̈́̎͌̊̓̒͐̾̇̈́̍͛̅͌̽́̏͆̉́̉̓̅́͂͛̄̆͌̈́̇͐̒̿̾͌͊͗̀͑̃̊̓̈̈́̊͒̒̏̿́͑̄̑͋̀̽̀̔̀̎̄͑̌̔́̉̐͛̓̐̅́̒̎̈͆̀̍̾̀͂̄̈́̈́̈́̑̏̈́̐̽̐́̏̂̐̔̓̉̈́͂̕̚̕͘͘̚͘̚̕̚̚̚͘̕̕̕͜͜͝͠͠͝͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͠͝͝͝͝͝͝ͅͅͅī̸̧̧̧̡̨̨̢̨̛̛̘͓̼̰̰̮̗̰͚̙̥̣͍̦̺͈̣̻͇̱͔̰͈͓͖͈̻̲̫̪̲͈̜̲̬̖̻̰̦̰͙̤̘̝̦̟͈̭̱̮̠͍̖̲͉̫͔͖͔͈̻̖̝͎̖͕͔̣͈̤̗̱̀̅̃̈́͌̿̏͋̊̇̂̀̀̒̉̄̈́͋͌̽́̈́̓̑̈̀̍͗͜͜͠͠ͅp̴̢̢̧̨̡̡̨̢̨̢̢̢̨̡̛̛͕̩͕̟̫̝͈̖̟̣̲̖̭̙͇̟̗͖͎̹͇̘̰̗̝̹̤̺͉͎̙̝̟͙͚̦͚͖̜̫̰͖̼̤̥̤̹̖͉͚̺̥̮̮̫͖͍̼̰̭̤̲͔̩̯̣͖̻͇̞̳̬͉̣̖̥̣͓̤͔̪̙͎̰̬͚̣̭̞̬͎̼͉͓̮͙͕̗̦̞̥̮̘̻͎̭̼͚͎͈͇̥̗͖̫̮̤̦͙̭͎̝͖̣̰̱̩͎̩͎̘͇̟̠̱̬͈̗͍̦̘̱̰̤̱̘̫̫̮̥͕͉̥̜̯͖̖͍̮̼̲͓̤̮͈̤͓̭̝̟̲̲̳̟̠͉̙̻͕͙̞͔̖͈̱̞͓͔̬̮͎̙̭͎̩̟̖͚̆͐̅͆̿͐̄̓̀̇̂̊̃̂̄̊̀͐̍̌̅͌̆͊̆̓́̄́̃̆͗͊́̓̀͑͐̐̇͐̍́̓̈́̓̑̈̈́̽͂́̑͒͐͋̊͊̇̇̆̑̃̈́̎͛̎̓͊͛̐̾́̀͌̐̈́͛̃̂̈̿̽̇̋̍͒̍͗̈͘̚̚͘̚͘͘͜͜͜͜͜͜͠͠͝͝ͅͅͅ☻♥■∞{╚mYÄÜXτ╕○\╚Θº£¥ΘBM@Q05♠{{↨↨▬§¶‼↕◄►☼1♦  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Posted
11 minutes ago, BuckGup said:

Wiki says Lithium air never hit the market until 1996 but the idea was introduced in the 1970s. So I would imagine the military tested it in the 70s to see if it was viable 

They were using them in the 80’s.  But military tech doesn’t mean “on the market”. 1996 seems late. I suspect earlier than that.  They predate liion.  Liion was a refinement of lithium air.  Liion also predates lipo.

 

My memory was lithium air stuff never really got out of the “high speed low drag air inflatable special forces issue”stuff.

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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2 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

https://www.eevblog.com/about/

 

(Its odd that you dont know him, im sure his videos were linked several times in these kind of news topics.)

 

It's possibble i've seen his stuff without the name ever sticking.

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12 hours ago, CarlBar said:

 

Who is he, never heard of him?

he is an electrical engineer, has been making youtube videos such as electrical engineering tutorials, electrical repairs, recovery of instruments discarded to the trash, and sometimes he debunks scams connected to energy, like the solar freaking roadways, solar freaking sidewalks. innovative wind mills things like that

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11 minutes ago, CircleTech said:

We need to give them a way to alleviate range anxiety

Really what they should start with is a more affordable and durable energy storage solution, current tech just not up for the task. (And before someone starts waffling about me being an idiot first look it up how much over-provisioning is used in EV's currently.)

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3 hours ago, BuckGup said:

There have been MASSIVE BREAKTHROUGHs in battery tech articles since the late 90s. I have zero hope

 

2 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

There have been.  The one that mattered was getting lithium ion anodes to not form dendrites.  That gave us rechargeable liion that made electric cars suddenly reasonably useful, gave use useful drones, and put electric planes where electric cars were in the 1970’s. Just a bit to heavy and short ranged to be really useful except in special situations. 

Samsung earlier this year has been working on a solid-state battery that uses a silver-carbon layer rather then lithium for the anode. More capacity, quicker charging, and safer. If they can overcome one or more technical obstacles, this tech would be a major game-changer in the EV industry. 

 

Here's a video going into more detail about it.

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19 hours ago, dizmo said:

Great! Now how long before the start up is purchased by a larger company, who either shelves it so they can continue selling their products, or develops it into defense equipment, where we won't see it for decades, if at all?

If something gets developed into a military tech it gets used by military personnel who don’t stay in the military.  It’s actually really hard to stay in the military for a long time.  If you do you come out with a great pension at a relatively young angle though which is a great position to start a small business. The result is military use doesn’t prevent commercial use, it drives it.

 

The whole thorium reactor stuff runs on this one “it’s awesome but the military is just hiding it” turns out that is BS.  Thorium sucks as a nuclear material.  To ame an analogy: Apparently the difference is that if plutonium is like burning kiln dried wood, thorium is like burning freshly cut sticks.  It’s not totally impossible, but so much additional energy has to be put into the reaction to power it that thorium reactors wouldn’t be less difficult to get usable energy out of they’d be more difficult.  It’s like muon assisted fusion. We could build a fusion reactor now that can do fusion.  The problem is to do it muons have to be constantly beamed into the reaction, and making muons is so expensive electrically that most of the energy production of the reactor would have to go to making more muons rather than being output as energy.  This means the reactor would still work but would have to be absolutely immense to actually get usable amounts of energy out of it. And then you’ve got all the crap left over from making the muons to deal with. 

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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Posted

 

Be sure to @Pickles von Brine if you want me to see your reply!

Stopping by to praise the all mighty jar Lord pickles... * drinks from a chalice of holy pickle juice and tossed dill over shoulder* ~ @WarDance
3600x | NH-D15 Chromax Black | 32GB 3200MHz | ASUS KO RTX 3070 UnderVolted and UnderClocked | Gigabyte Aorus Elite AX X570S | Seasonic X760w | Phanteks Evolv X | 500GB WD_Black SN750 x2 | Sandisk Skyhawk 3.84TB SSD 

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1 hour ago, Pickles - Lord of the Jar said:

 

So not a breakthrough but they did knock a tiny chip out of a block.  With a couple hundred more chips that size they might have a “breakthrough”
 

Trying to find a use case for this now. 
 

they mentioned a company already making similar things using tridium.  Smoke alarms use tridium.  Perhaps they can make a better smoke alarm.  Used as a power source, as described Perhaps a smoke alarm the size of a manhole cover that costs a couple grand but never needs to have its battery replaced. Not exactly an electric car.  Might have some applications though. 

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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1 hour ago, Bombastinator said:

If something gets developed into a military tech it gets used by military personnel who don’t stay in the military.  It’s actually really hard to stay in the military for a long time.  If you do you come out with a great pension at a relatively young angle though which is a great position to start a small business. The result is military use doesn’t prevent commercial use, it drives it.

 

The whole thorium reactor stuff runs on this one “it’s awesome but the military is just hiding it” turns out that is BS.  Thorium sucks as a nuclear material.  To ame an analogy: Apparently the difference is that if plutonium is like burning kiln dried wood, thorium is like burning freshly cut sticks.  It’s not totally impossible, but so much additional energy has to be put into the reaction to power it that thorium reactors wouldn’t be less difficult to get usable energy out of they’d be more difficult.  It’s like muon assisted fusion. We could build a fusion reactor now that can do fusion.  The problem is to do it muons have to be constantly beamed into the reaction, and making muons is so expensive electrically that most of the energy production of the reactor would have to go to making more muons rather than being output as energy.  This means the reactor would still work but would have to be absolutely immense to actually get usable amounts of energy out of it. And then you’ve got all the crap left over from making the muons to deal with. 

 

You've clearly never heard of the concept of classified material. The military's of the world can and will classify certain technologies if they feel the need.

 

Your understanding of certain basic principles of engineering is also lacking based on the second paragraph. How good somthing is at it's job isn't allways, (though somtimes it is ofc), the number one factor. If it eases other aspects it can be worth it. I'd have to brush up on my thorium reactor info as I've onyl briefly glanced over anything t do with it sometime ago if i want to get authoritative on it. But from what i recall a thorium fueled design has certain reactor design factors that are actually cheaper and safer, and the fuel itself is significantly cheaper and safer. It may be less power dense than alternatives, (i remember reading the same thing), but it's got so many cost and safety advantages that it has compelling arguments compared to plutonium or uranium, (the main issue is no one has detailed experiance with a thorium design, so there's a lot of the new variant tech kinks to work out than any new variant of an existing tech has, it's the same reason many types of modification to the design of an existing aircraft require it to be qualified).

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35 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

You've clearly never heard of the concept of classified material. The military's of the world can and will classify certain technologies if they feel the need.

 

Your understanding of certain basic principles of engineering is also lacking based on the second paragraph. How good somthing is at it's job isn't allways, (though somtimes it is ofc), the number one factor. If it eases other aspects it can be worth it. I'd have to brush up on my thorium reactor info as I've onyl briefly glanced over anything t do with it sometime ago if i want to get authoritative on it. But from what i recall a thorium fueled design has certain reactor design factors that are actually cheaper and safer, and the fuel itself is significantly cheaper and safer. It may be less power dense than alternatives, (i remember reading the same thing), but it's got so many cost and safety advantages that it has compelling arguments compared to plutonium or uranium, (the main issue is no one has detailed experiance with a thorium design, so there's a lot of the new variant tech kinks to work out than any new variant of an existing tech has, it's the same reason many types of modification to the design of an existing aircraft require it to be qualified).

Ah the “classified” thing.  Visions of the last scene  of “raiders of the lost ark”. There is a thorium reactor project run by the US navy that is classified as you describe.  It’s classification has dropped 4 times.  Once quite recently. Every time funding isn’t allocated every researcher in the place publishes.  That is where some of this information is from.

 

 don’t claim to be an engineer. It’s an oversimplification if the problem.  Are you saying it’s false?  Sure the fuel is easier to deal with.  I was talking about a totally different aspect: size of reactor requirements.  One of the problems nuclear reactors have is that while a nuclear reactor is more powerful than a gas plant it can take multiple years to construct whereas a gas plant can be thrown up in fractions of that time.  I’m saying a thorium reactor would take even longer to build than a nuclear reactor because it would have to be even bigger to provide energy.  Fuel safety isn’t involved at all.  Some savings might be created by not having to deal with some of the problems of fuel storage, but that is apparently not a primary factor in the concept.  Compelling, sure, until the math is done.  Kind of like the thread topic.

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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2 hours ago, Pickles - Lord of the Jar said:

 

 

God this guy is as bad as thunderfoot. Usless.

 

Whilst i actually agree that this is unlikely to shake things up because of the issue of low continuous output he does an utterly terrible job of debunking it.

 

Right at the start he brings up the image and then lifts up an example surface mount component to show off the size. Except he never actually shows any evidence it's that big. To be fair i was willing to let it slide at that point, he might have info he hasn't specifically called out. But then he mentions the commercial existing examples. This would have been the perfect time to step in and show a size image of one of those. but again i could let it slide. It raised concerns but i wouldn't be calling him bad over it. but then we get to the end where he talks about their planned AA battery design based off this. He shows the layout, accepts and agrees with it but never stops to consider or address that the micro battery on the circuit board in the bottom of that battery would have to be a tiny fraction of the size of the component he held up. Now it's possibble their battery design is the faulty part, (i.e they're making stuff up). But it's also possibble it isn't. And if it isn't then getting a 100uW battery down that small actually changes the level of relevance of this tech significantly.

 

Also when he talked about the RTG comparison his research was just terrible. A simple search for "RTG Efficiency" should turn up useful results within a few links, (i actually think the wiki article he had open has the info in there, but i haven't checked it in ages so not sure whats been edited). RTG's especially the pielter based models have extremly poor efficiency of conversion of the output from the radioactive material. The near 15x claim is still probably ideal circumstances on both ends. But it's perfectly believable if the 40 claim they made is acurratte, (and people in this thread worked out what that meant when he apparently couldn't).

 

 

 

That claimed battery size in the bottom of the AA a mighty small item. in fact i'd guess no more than 1mm^3. Using that as a density calculator in theory an AA sized battery could generate upto 0.8 watts if fully filled with these. Probably less because of various side factors, but 0.4w's for a three quarters volume fill looks reasonable at this point, (though thats an educated guess only, take it with salt obviously). Thats actually quite respectable. Not enough to directly power most devices and we don't have the tech to put a usefully sized storage medium into the meaning quarter volume. But it's a lot closer to usable than it first looks.

 

Where still probably a a very long ways away from somthing truly mass usable, (i have significant concerns about the thermal aspects of combining lots of these together for example), and i admit i am not yet convinced they really have got it compacted down that small.

 

19 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Ah the “classified” thing.  Visions of the last scene  of “raiders of the lost ark”. There is a thorium reactor project run by the US navy that is classified as you describe.  It’s classification has dropped 4 times.  Once quite recently. Every time funding isn’t allocated every researcher in the place publishes.  That is where some of this information is from.

 

 don’t claim to be an engineer. It’s an oversimplification if the problem.  Are you saying it’s false?  Sure the fuel is easier to deal with.  I was talking about a totally different aspect: size of reactor requirements.  One of the problems nuclear reactors have is that while a nuclear reactor is more powerful than a gas plant it can take multiple years to construct whereas a gas plant can be thrown up in fractions of that time.  I’m saying a thorium reactor would take even longer to build than a nuclear reactor because it would have to be even bigger to provide energy.  Fuel safety isn’t involved at all.  Some savings might be created by not having to deal with some of the problems of fuel storage, but that is apparently not a primary factor in the concept.  Compelling, sure, until the math is done.  Kind of like the thread topic.

 

I wasn't talking about thorium reactors specifically with the classified comment,. but rather a general thing. As an example in the UK AFAIK there are less than 10 people who know all the details of whats in the Dorchester armour packs used on our tanks. And if any of them so much as hinted at the details publicly like your saying is happening with the USN Thorium reactor project they'd be facing treason charges and long jail terms.

 

As far as the engineering aspects. I'd have to re-familiarise myself with the details on thorium fuelled designs but you have to remember that once the hot water, (or other cooling medium), leaves the reactor core where the fuel is everything after that point is identical to what you'd find in an oil, or coal, or gas, or whatever fuelled plant. All the extra expense comes from the reactor core itself, (and somewhat the legal side of getting planning permission),. With the bulk of it being in a combination of special materials to withstand the radiation, (some materials become weaker after prolonged radiation exposure, but different types of materials affect different materials differently), the containment building to deal with potential accidents inside the reactor, and the specialised machinery to handle the fuel. From what i remember thorium designs can cut all of those costs significantly as they just don't present the same issues there, (also producing thorium fuel is supposedly much cheaper, though remember economies of scale when looking at experimental unit costs on that front).

 

Though why the USN is looking into it i have no idea, none of thorium's advantages would apply to the uses the USN has.

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13 minutes ago, CarlBar said:

 

God this guy is as bad as thunderfoot. Usless.

 

Whilst i actually agree that this is unlikely to shake things up because of the issue of low continuous output he does an utterly terrible job of debunking it.

 

Right at the start he brings up the image and then lifts up an example surface mount component to show off the size. Except he never actually shows any evidence it's that big. To be fair i was willing to let it slide at that point, he might have info he hasn't specifically called out. But then he mentions the commercial existing examples. This would have been the perfect time to step in and show a size image of one of those. but again i could let it slide. It raised concerns but i wouldn't be calling him bad over it. but then we get to the end where he talks about their planned AA battery design based off this. He shows the layout, accepts and agrees with it but never stops to consider or address that the micro battery on the circuit board in the bottom of that battery would have to be a tiny fraction of the size of the component he held up. Now it's possibble their battery design is the faulty part, (i.e they're making stuff up). But it's also possibble it isn't. And if it isn't then getting a 100uW battery down that small actually changes the level of relevance of this tech significantly.

 

Also when he talked about the RTG comparison his research was just terrible. A simple search for "RTG Efficiency" should turn up useful results within a few links, (i actually think the wiki article he had open has the info in there, but i haven't checked it in ages so not sure whats been edited). RTG's especially the pielter based models have extremly poor efficiency of conversion of the output from the radioactive material. The near 15x claim is still probably ideal circumstances on both ends. But it's perfectly believable if the 40 claim they made is acurratte, (and people in this thread worked out what that meant when he apparently couldn't).

 

 

 

That claimed battery size in the bottom of the AA a mighty small item. in fact i'd guess no more than 1mm^3. Using that as a density calculator in theory an AA sized battery could generate upto 0.8 watts if fully filled with these. Probably less because of various side factors, but 0.4w's for a three quarters volume fill looks reasonable at this point, (though thats an educated guess only, take it with salt obviously). Thats actually quite respectable. Not enough to directly power most devices and we don't have the tech to put a usefully sized storage medium into the meaning quarter volume. But it's a lot closer to usable than it first looks.

 

Where still probably a a very long ways away from somthing truly mass usable, (i have significant concerns about the thermal aspects of combining lots of these together for example), and i admit i am not yet convinced they really have got it compacted down that small.

 

 

I wasn't talking about thorium reactors specifically with the classified comment,. but rather a general thing. As an example in the UK AFAIK there are less than 10 people who know all the details of whats in the Dorchester armour packs used on our tanks. And if any of them so much as hinted at the details publicly like your saying is happening with the USN Thorium reactor project they'd be facing treason charges and long jail terms.

 

As far as the engineering aspects. I'd have to re-familiarise myself with the details on thorium fuelled designs but you have to remember that once the hot water, (or other cooling medium), leaves the reactor core where the fuel is everything after that point is identical to what you'd find in an oil, or coal, or gas, or whatever fuelled plant. All the extra expense comes from the reactor core itself, (and somewhat the legal side of getting planning permission),. With the bulk of it being in a combination of special materials to withstand the radiation, (some materials become weaker after prolonged radiation exposure, but different types of materials affect different materials differently), the containment building to deal with potential accidents inside the reactor, and the specialised machinery to handle the fuel. From what i remember thorium designs can cut all of those costs significantly as they just don't present the same issues there, (also producing thorium fuel is supposedly much cheaper, though remember economies of scale when looking at experimental unit costs on that front).

 

Though why the USN is looking into it i have no idea, none of thorium's advantages would apply to the uses the USN has.

Ah.  So the statement about classification had no connection to the rest of the post which was about thorium, or to my statement, which was about thorium. And your use of the first paragraph in the second was what?

 

re:Dorchester armor packs

Spoiler

  I’ve never heard of em.  Let’s see what the internet says: top hit is “chobham armor” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chobham_armour

Just running on what I have heard about chobham armor without reading anything, it’s a multilayered material with very hard materials as well as very soft ones including aluminum and rubber. There are also air pockets. It’s all very deliberately designed. The M1 tank was designed to use it, as well as a bunch of other systems.  The point is to absorb and spread the blow of a munition too keep it from penetrating, It works extremely well against various kinds of AP munitions, though it cannot protect against ultra high velocity FSDUAP darts.  They’re so extremely difficult to make or use though that it’s considered a non-problem.  It’s considered superior to reactive armor though I understand lately reactive armor has been used on top of it. 


 

So General public information lacking in specifics.  Just like the stuff I said about thorium.    

Not a pro, not even very good.  I’m just old and have time currently.  Assuming I know a lot about computers can be a mistake.

 

Life is like a bowl of chocolates: there are all these little crinkly paper cups everywhere.

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