Wiring a 60 y.o. House with Ethernet

[TechTippee]

This home does not have Ethernet ports. I've only found one phone jack, and I can't even get it to work. So I'm bringing this house into the 21st century, and I could use some advice.

 

First, I would like to put actual wall outlets in and run the wiring through the walls. That's not a problem, as I have attic access over the entire house. I just need recommendations on how to do it. Should I buy some 50-ft cables and run one from an outlet in each room to one 6-port outlet by my router, and connect a switch from all utilized ports to said router? (Important note: my router does not have enough ports to skip the switch.) Or would it be okay to run the wires up to a switch that hangs out in the sweltering/freezing (depending on the time of year) attic and have just the 1-port outlet by my router?

 

And lastly, what sort of cabling should I use? Cat5? 6? 7? My internet speed is ~500 Mbps on a good day, so I expect Cat5e will be more than sufficient.

 

If there's a more efficient way of doing this, please sound off below. Thanks!

[Electronics Wizardy]

6 minutes ago, TechTippee said:

Should I buy some 50-ft cables

just buy a big box of 1000 feet, and then crimp the ends your self. Normally get a wall jack, and a patch panel on the other end.

 

7 minutes ago, TechTippee said:

.) Or would it be okay to run the wires up to a switch that hangs out in the sweltering/freezing (depending on the time of year) attic and have just the 1-port outlet by my router?

If there is a big range in tempatures, id probably just run the cables to a switch inside, and then have a patch panel they plug into. Then plug those into the switch.

 

7 minutes ago, TechTippee said:

And lastly, what sort of cabling should I use? Cat5? 6? 7? My internet speed is ~500 Mbps on a good day, so I expect gigabit-capable hardware will be more than sufficient.

5e will do gig, but if you can get 6 for not much more might as well.

[Bombastinator]

A 60 year old house means 1950’s so it might be greenfield, but knob and tube wasn’t made illegal everywhere till the late 60’s so you could have really old knob and tube and a fuse box.  If you’ve got knob and tube unless stuff has been updated if you see even one outlet that has more than two holes updating has been done.  If you’ve got the cash the do-it-right method is tear out all the walls and ceilings, remove the knob and tube entirely and completely rewire.  If you see zero 2 hole outlasts you might have greenfield or you might just have a heavily updated house.

 

knob and tube has no ground at all.  It’s called “knob and tube” because back in the day they didn’t have good electrical insulation so they used air.  The whole wall is effectively a wire.  The wire is several feet apart and held up with ceramic knobs so it can’t be pulled.  The wire is covered with jute tubes between the knobs.  It’s normally done umbrella fashion.  The wiring starts in the SSRI long and runs down the walls.  Many houses are updated rather than being actually fixed so the knob and tube is still there, but there is also more modern wiring.  It may have been done several times using different codes as they change over time too.

 

Depending on the area code changes.  In my area I could tell you what year work was done based on the type of work it is.  I’ve got a 1929 house with three generations of wiring in it.

[TechTippee]

Just now, Bombastinator said:

A 60 year old house means really old knob and tube and a fuse box unless stuff has been updated if you see even one outlet that has more than two holes updating has been done.  If you’ve got the cash the do-it-right method is tear out all the walls and ceilings, remove the knob and tube entirely and completely rewire.

 

knob and tube has no ground at all.  It’s called “knob and tube” because back in the day they didn’t have good electrical insulation so they used air.  The whole wall is effectively a wire.  The wire is several feet apart and held up with ceramic knobs so it can’t be pulled.  The wire is covered with jute tubes between the knobs.  It’s normally done umbrella fashion.  The wiring starts in the SSRI long and runs down the walls.

I suppose I should clarify that it has been updated, by the previous homeowner, to a more modern standard. Hopefully. There have definitely been sketchy sections here and there, but the wiring does appear grounded. The breaker box isn't knob and tube, anyway. But, phone lines/ethernet are not to be found.

 

27 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

just buy a big box of 1000 feet, and then crimp the ends your self. Normally get a wall jack, and a patch panel on the other end.

 

20 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

If there is a big range in tempatures, id probably just run the cables to a switch inside, and then have a patch panel they plug into. Then plug those into the switch.

Can do. So once I'd run wire from each room to the patch panel, I'd run wires from the panel to the switch which is connected to the router? Is there merit to having a panel for a 4-6 port setup?

 

[Electronics Wizardy]

1 minute ago, TechTippee said:

Can do. So once I'd run wire from each room to the patch panel, I'd run wires from the panel to the switch which is connected to the router? Is there merit to having a panel for a 4-6 port setup?

 

patch panels make things nicer, not needed, but wiring is much cleaner and easier to work with. Id personally do a patch panel.

[Bombastinator]

7 minutes ago, TechTippee said:

I suppose I should clarify that it has been updated, by the previous homeowner, to a more modern standard. Hopefully. There have definitely been sketchy sections here and there, but the wiring does appear grounded. The breaker box isn't knob and tube, anyway. But, phone lines/ethernet are not to be found.

 

 

Can do. So once I'd run wire from each room to the patch panel, I'd run wires from the panel to the switch which is connected to the router? Is there merit to having a panel for a 4-6 port setup?

 

I did my math wrong and updated my post.  It reads a bit differently now.  You may have greenfield and EMT, which is actually better than the modern stuff.  You may also have half and half though.  There’s a reason electrician only charge hourly for old work.

 

of you’re going to fish low voltage I suggest fishing smurf tube instead (nm conduit.  It’s smurf blue). The thing is ethernet standards change and conduit allows you to easily change the cables if you need to.

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, TechTippee said:

This home does not have Ethernet ports. I've only found one phone jack, and I can't even get it to work. So I'm bringing this house into the 21st century, and I could use some advice.

 

First, I would like to put actual wall outlets in and run the wiring through the walls. That's not a problem, as I have attic access over the entire house. I just need recommendations on how to do it. Should I buy some 50-ft cables and run one from an outlet in each room to one 6-port outlet by my router, and connect a switch from all utilized ports to said router? (Important note: my router does not have enough ports to skip the switch.) Or would it be okay to run the wires up to a switch that hangs out in the sweltering/freezing (depending on the time of year) attic and have just the 1-port outlet by my router?

 

And lastly, what sort of cabling should I use? Cat5? 6? 7? My internet speed is ~500 Mbps on a good day, so I expect Cat5e will be more than sufficient.

 

If there's a more efficient way of doing this, please sound off below. Thanks!

Buy Cat 6A cable, this is good for 10Gbit, up to 100meters (328ft) However you need to ensure that it's properly terminated and not kinked otherwise it will cause you nothing but problems. (The same can be said for 6, 5e and 5, don't kink, bend, staple, tie or do anything to the cable, otherwise it is no longer capable of cat5 capability) 

 

The ideal situation is find the shortest path to install an ethernet switch (eg an attic or basement) and run all the ethernet cables to that point and then just plug them in there. Point to point. Make sure that you either

 

a) Buy a spool of cable the first time, like don't eyeball it, then add 1' on each end to allow for termination in at a box in the wall. This requires some skill to properly terminate but it's the more permanent solution.

 

b) Buy individual cables the correct length the first time and run them through the walls/ceiling, assuming you have exposed ceilings or walls to do this. Without termination boxes. The catch here is that the ends can be damaged by doing the actual cable pulling, and if it gets kinked or bent in the process, you have to discard the cable.

 

The better option is A, but if you don't really have the skill for it, do B, and just be mindful if a cable gets damaged, you have to replace the ENTIRE cable, which means re-doing anything you did to install it the first time.

 

You can plug everything into a 10Gig switch or a 1Gig Switch somewhere, it's not that important if it's an unmanaged switch. Unless you want to get 10G speed between each thing connected while also having 1G from the internet, then you would want a proper 10Gbit switch. But overall that's a cost overkill option when 1Gbit hardware is pretty cheap, and 10Gbit hardware is 20x more expensive, currently.

 

[Roswell]

If your electrical wiring is even moderately acceptable you could save yourself a lot of headache and get 1Gbit powerline adapters.

[GDRRiley]

13 minutes ago, Vitamanic said:

If your electrical wiring is even moderately acceptable you could save yourself a lot of headache and get 1Gbit powerline adapters.

power line isn't what you want. just spend the time on running cat right.

 

[Roswell]

17 minutes ago, GDRRiley said:

power line isn't what you want. just spend the time on running cat right.

 

Why isn't it "what you want"? They work fine and save time/money. If you have wiring that isn't noisy you won't notice a difference. 

[GDRRiley]

Just now, Vitamanic said:

Why isn't it "what you want"? They work fine and save time/money.

they cost way more than a 1000ft spool of cat. that can do an entire house.

they can save time but aren't 100% reliable

[Roswell]

9 minutes ago, GDRRiley said:

they cost way more than a 1000ft spool of cat. that can do an entire house.

they can save time but aren't 100% reliable

A spool of decent cat6 is going to cost at least $150. Then you need a decent switch, wall plates and crimping tools if he doesn't have them. You're easily into $350-400 territory by then. 1Gbit powerline adapters are like 35-40 a pop and won't take a week of work to install.

[GDRRiley]

4 minutes ago, Vitamanic said:

A spool of decent cat6 is going to cost at least $150. Then you need a decent switch, wall plates and crimping tools if he doesn't have them. You're easily into $350-400 territory by then. 1Gbit powerline adapters are like 35-40 a pop and won't take a week of work to install.

cat 6 is 100$ for 1000ft

cat 6a is like 175$

switches are like 50-100$ for a 24 port 1 gig

 

its not a week. its like an afternoon or 2

[Bombastinator]

Powerline only works with certain vintages of wiring.  He seems to have multiple vintages.  I would call powerline possible but quite risky.  Before trying it get only two and move them around to see if the hopes for thing actually connects.

[Roswell]

24 minutes ago, GDRRiley said:

cat 6 is 100$ for 1000ft

cat 6a is like 175$

switches are like 50-100$ for a 24 port 1 gig

 

its not a week. its like an afternoon or 2

You just left out half of the things required. I also don't know of anywhere selling spools that cheap unless it's garbage.

 

Regardless, fishing wire from an attic for multiple rooms, cutting drywall and plating each outlet, crimping and so on isn't an afternoon or two lol. I get why someone who's never done it would say that, but that's absolutely not realistic.

 

22 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Powerline only works with certain vintages of wiring.  He seems to have multiple vintages.  I would call powerline possible but quite risky.  Before trying it get only two and move them around to see if the hopes for thing actually connects.

Which is why I qualified my original reply with "if your wiring isn't noisy". The other person replying to me seemingly exists on this forum to exclusively nitpick and argue with just about everyone in every post he makes, I don't know why I'm even bothering.

[Bombastinator]

11 minutes ago, Vitamanic said:

You just left out half of the things required. I also don't know of anywhere selling spools that cheap unless it's garbage.

 

Regardless, fishing wire from an attic for multiple rooms, cutting drywall and plating each outlet, crimping and so on isn't an afternoon or two lol. I get why someone who's never done it would say that, but that's absolutely not realistic.

 

Which is why I qualified my original reply with "if your wiring isn't noisy". The other person replying to me seemingly exists on this forum to exclusively nitpick and argue with just about everyone in every post he makes, I don't know why I'm even bothering.

That’s not the only problem, though it does matter.  The issue is the connections between the wires.  What circuit is connected to what, what style of wire nut was used (there was a point when all connections were soldered and taped for example.  No wire nuts at all.  There was another point where it was legal to use a receptacle as a circuit junction) how the wiring branches, etc..  Code changed through time, and electricians didn’t always do it right.  House wire was never specifically designed to make functional ethernet.  It does sometimes work though.

[Kisai]

2 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

That’s not the only problem, though it does matter.  The issue is the connections between the wires.  What circuit is connected to what, what style of wire nut was used (there was a point when all connections were soldered and taped for example.  No wire nuts at all.  There was another point where it was legal to use a receptacle as a circuit junction) how the wiring branches, etc..  Code changed through time, and electricians didn’t always do it right.  House wire was never specifically designed to make functional ethernet.  It does sometimes work though.

I would only recommend PNA/HomePlug/G.hn if you have a relatively clean electrical installation that isn't shared by other buildings. eg a Mobile Home or a single-story house that doesn't have sheds or garages that someone likes to operate the power tools out of.

 

Condos are probably risky to do PNA with, likewise if you have a basement suite shared with another tenant, or room-mates who aren't paying you for your internet. That's really the only "bad idea" version. 

 

Like there is an entire "cost to install does not justify the investment" problem with fixed wiring. It's cheaper to run new wiring once and it will last 15 years, rather than buy a bunch of PNA adapters and then 3 years later have to replace them all because the standard changed and you can't replace ones that broke, or you want to expand it and there's nobody selling them. Like if you ran Cat6A right now, you can do 10Gbit now, or later. If you stick with Cat6/Cat5e, you can do 1Gbit, but 10Gbit might not be attainable unless installed perfectly. 

 

Hence why I suggested Cat6a rather than just Cat6. There are gaming systems and there are there Mac's that have 10Gbit or PC systems with 2.5/5Gbit variations that you can get today that can take advantage of that, given the right switch.

 

G.hn /homeplug/homegrid/homepna,etc are really about getting electronics to talk over powerlines rather than just straight ethernet over powerlines, and thus it's favored by some last-mile installations to avoid punching holes in walls, but it's also less reliable than WiFi, there is no upgrade/downgrade path for these devices as there's really not been much customer adoption of the hardware, being that G.hn is the current standard and there's not much uptake in the technology.

 

[Bombastinator]

26 minutes ago, Kisai said:

I would only recommend PNA/HomePlug/G.hn if you have a relatively clean electrical installation that isn't shared by other buildings. eg a Mobile Home or a single-story house that doesn't have sheds or garages that someone likes to operate the power tools out of.

 

Condos are probably risky to do PNA with, likewise if you have a basement suite shared with another tenant, or room-mates who aren't paying you for your internet. That's really the only "bad idea" version. 

 

Like there is an entire "cost to install does not justify the investment" problem with fixed wiring. It's cheaper to run new wiring once and it will last 15 years, rather than buy a bunch of PNA adapters and then 3 years later have to replace them all because the standard changed and you can't replace ones that broke, or you want to expand it and there's nobody selling them. Like if you ran Cat6A right now, you can do 10Gbit now, or later. If you stick with Cat6/Cat5e, you can do 1Gbit, but 10Gbit might not be attainable unless installed perfectly. 

 

Hence why I suggested Cat6a rather than just Cat6. There are gaming systems and there are there Mac's that have 10Gbit or PC systems with 2.5/5Gbit variations that you can get today that can take advantage of that, given the right switch.

 

G.hn /homeplug/homegrid/homepna,etc are really about getting electronics to talk over powerlines rather than just straight ethernet over powerlines, and thus it's favored by some last-mile installations to avoid punching holes in walls, but it's also less reliable than WiFi, there is no upgrade/downgrade path for these devices as there's really not been much customer adoption of the hardware, being that G.hn is the current standard and there's not much uptake in the technology.

 

This is also why I suggest doing smurf tube, though it may just be a “don’t make the mistake I did” thing.

Fishing stuff sucks.  There’s a bunch of poking and prodding about with fish tape or fiberglass rods or “diversibits” which was a brand name for the company that invented the things.  3 foot long flexible shaft spade bits with a hole in the blade to hook things to and pull them back through the hole they made.  With nm conduit if you need to change the cables it’s easy.  Just pass the wire through a tube.  The issue I have is there was cat5, then cat5e, then cat6, then cat6a. I thought I was clever and paid double for the new cat5e because it was so much faster than cat5 and who would need more? 
Now I’ve got a bunch of abandoned cat5e in my house.  Electricians are legally required to remove the stuff if they find it.  I wish I ran tube.  It’s no more difficult to do the initial fish with.  The stuff is flexible.  Does cost more because you have to buy the tube and then buy the wire to put in the tube.  Whether it’s a good idea or not depends on how often the cable will need to be changed to a faster type.

[Escapenz]

4 hours ago, Bombastinator said:

This is also why I suggest doing smurf tube, though it may just be a “don’t make the mistake I did” thing.

Fishing stuff sucks.  There’s a bunch of poking and prodding about with fish tape or fiberglass rods or “diversibits” which was a brand name for the company that invented the things.  3 foot long flexible shaft spade bits with a hole in the blade to hook things to and pull them back through the hole they made.  With nm conduit if you need to change the cables it’s easy.  Just pass the wire through a tube.  The issue I have is there was cat5, then cat5e, then cat6, then cat6a. I thought I was clever and paid double for the new cat5e because it was so much faster than cat5 and who would need more? 
Now I’ve got a bunch of abandoned cat5e in my house.  Electricians are legally required to remove the stuff if they find it.  I wish I ran tube.  It’s no more difficult to do the initial fish with.  The stuff is flexible.  Does cost more because you have to buy the tube and then buy the wire to put in the tube.  Whether it’s a good idea or not depends on how often the cable will need to be changed to a faster type.

Going tube is a great idea. I never actually thought of that. I'm lucky at my house i run under the floor and my house is off the ground so i can easily get under but i'm about to start wiring a mate place and need to go threw the roof. Will definitely be doing that for his place

[Jarsky]

8 hours ago, Vitamanic said:

Regardless, fishing wire from an attic for multiple rooms, cutting drywall and plating each outlet, crimping and so on isn't an afternoon or two lol. I get why someone who's never done it would say that, but that's absolutely not realistic.

 

You can most certainly do it in an afternoon.....i used to do construction so we used to do a lot of drops while refurbishing places. I've also done the last few houses i've lived in.  

The current one I did last month and took about 3 hours once I worked out the centering locations for the AP's, and worked out exactly where my fibre terminal line was. 

 

All you need for plasterboard walls and an attic:

Auger flex bit (and extension if your bit has a hook hole on it)

Glow Rods (if your auger bit doesn't have a hook hole)

Drill (preferably cordless)

C-Clips

RJ-45 wallplates

Keystones

UTP cable

Data Wire Stripper + Krone tool (you can get combos)

Flashlight

 

 

The harder thing for most people, is to know *where* they can drill safely (especially in walls that share with a kitchen or bathroom), and what the wiring codes are based on their country/state.  Most countries/states will have a minimum height it should be off the floor (especially for places that are flood prone), and most have a minimum distance between high & low voltage lines, and requirements for insulation (e.g You can have a high power & low power line next to each other, or even in the same box, but they must be separated by a barrier and the gang box must be non insulating). 

 

But yeah its not really that cheap for doing runs from ceiling to floor if you don't already have the tools. My last house was even easier as it had a crawl space underneath, so just ran everything under the house and just used circle cable clips to clip them to the underfloor beams. 

 

[scottyseng]

On 7/11/2020 at 7:30 PM, Vitamanic said:

Regardless, fishing wire from an attic for multiple rooms, cutting drywall and plating each outlet, crimping and so on isn't an afternoon or two lol. I get why someone who's never done it would say that, but that's absolutely not realistic.

I can agree with Jarsky. I wired my whole house (24 runs) in one night. I do agree that being in the attic sucks, but what took me the longest is locating where the access points should go while in the attic (It was a lot of I want to be next to a joist for access point support vs how centered it is in the room).

 

That being said, I do have the tools and knowledge as well (worked in construction for well over 10 years). Also the difficulty increases depending where you are putting the cables. A single story house with the plugs being on interior only walls is much easier than dealing with exterior walls due to insulation.

 

I just used a drill, spade bits, fishing tape (I wish I had the cool long flexible glow fishing rods), lots of electrical tape, and screw hole zip ties (I wish I had c-clips, but oh well) to run the wire. I will also agree that this is only cheap if you own the tools already to terminate / fish the wire.

[TechTippee]

Thanks for all the input, guys!

On 7/11/2020 at 11:43 PM, Kisai said:

I would only recommend PNA/HomePlug/G.hn if you have a relatively clean electrical installation that isn't shared by other buildings. eg a Mobile Home or a single-story house that doesn't have sheds or garages that someone likes to operate the power tools out of.

The house is a split-level, stand-alone building with no sheds, etc. being powered out of it (that may change in the future).

On 7/11/2020 at 8:49 PM, Bombastinator said:

The issue is the connections between the wires.  What circuit is connected to what, what style of wire nut was used (there was a point when all connections were soldered and taped for example.  No wire nuts at all.  There was another point where it was legal to use a receptacle as a circuit junction) how the wiring branches, etc..  Code changed through time, and electricians didn’t always do it right.  House wire was never specifically designed to make functional ethernet.  It does sometimes work though.

I have seen all of the above in this house (and updated it where I did, but I am not about to tear down every wall in this house to check for more), so this might be a sort of generational line of self-home-improvers. I had no idea that the receptacle thing was actually legal at one point. Huh. I will say that the fusebox is a nightmare. Plenty of weird branches.

6 hours ago, scottyseng said:

That being said, I do have the tools and knowledge as well (worked in construction for well over 10 years). Also the difficulty increases depending where you are putting the cables. A single story house with the plugs being on interior only walls is much easier than dealing with exterior walls due to insulation.

I've got a few years of experience under my belt as well. I certainly have the tools, at least for running standard household wire. I have the tools for coaxial install as well, though they may not be sufficient for this. 

 

With all that said: Research seems to suggest that Cat6a is the standard to have these days. I certainly don't see myself using the full 10Gbps (much less more than that) any time soon, but future-"proofing" is always a good thing. Would you agree that getting unshielded cable would be adequate for the wall runs? I'm probably going solid for those sections at this point. Should I go for plenum over riser cable since I'll be wiring through an attic?

[Bombastinator]

Code varies by area and by time. I found a couple of those. The soldered connections are actually excellent.  It’s a better method.  Just too expensive.  If you know the code history of an area you can often date a given connection by the wire, box, and connection type.

[Jarsky]

1 hour ago, TechTippee said:

With all that said: Research seems to suggest that Cat6a is the standard to have these days. I certainly don't see myself using the full 10Gbps (much less more than that) any time soon, but future-"proofing" is always a good thing. Would you agree that getting unshielded cable would be adequate for the wall runs? I'm probably going solid for those sections at this point. Should I go for plenum over riser cable since I'll be wiring through an attic?

I would definitely go with cat6a these days, unlike the cat6/cat5e it has a plastic divider in it that separates the pairs to reduce entanglement of the signal. Much better for reliable 10Gbps if you do ever decide to use it. Keep in mind for supporting 10Gbps you really need the proper cat6a keystones...they're a bit different in that they run through the middle of the keystone rather than coming in from the side which keeps the pairs properly separated at the termination. 

 

Cat6a is generally unshielded (UTP) and is just fine to use. Plenum wiring is mainly for wiring through HVAC systems, but really for residential use just use standard cat6a utp riser. 

[TechTippee]

11 minutes ago, Jarsky said:

I would definitely go with cat6a these days, unlike the cat6/cat5e it has a plastic divider in it that separates the pairs to reduce entanglement of the signal. Much better for reliable 10Gbps if you do ever decide to use it. Keep in mind for supporting 10Gbps you really need the proper cat6a keystones...they're a bit different in that they run through the middle of the keystone rather than coming in from the side which keeps the pairs properly separated at the termination. 

 

Cat6a is generally unshielded (UTP) and is just fine to use. Plenum wiring is mainly for wiring through HVAC systems, but really for residential use just use standard cat6a utp riser. 

Excellent. I'll be sure to watch out for the connectors. @Electronics Wizardy was pointing out the merits of a patch panel earlier, and I'm entertaining the idea of installing one, but I would want to install it in a different room from the router. Would it be too convoluted/inefficient to run everything to the panel, connect the panel to the switch, then run  a cable from the switch to a wall jack by the router? And if not, do switches take solid cabling?