Apple quietly ditches AMD

[RedRound2]

22 hours ago, Orfieus said:

Uh I see it differently.

 

People who buy Apple are people who are buying a $100,000 sports car to only go to the mall and back

 

People who choose Apple for work purposes are people who buy a $100,000 sports car with a trailer hitch

Clearly you haven't seen workflow based reviews of the Mac Pro. It's overpriced, yes, but all professional equipment are. Plus you do get access to softwares, features and ecosystem that really isn't rivaled in any meaningful way

 

Their laptops and iMacs are decently priced - and that's a conclusion that LTT has also arrived at

[Sauron]

22 hours ago, Orfieus said:

Uh I see it differently.

 

People who buy Apple are people who are buying a $100,000 sports car to only go to the mall and back

 

People who choose Apple for work purposes are people who buy a $100,000 sports car with a trailer hitch

Except in both cases the sports car isn't actually that fast

[leadeater]

31 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

but all professional equipment are

Don't know about that, most professional equipment don't go for expensive and extravagant chassis or charge $999 for a substandard professional monitor mount. Professional equipment is often expensive not overpriced. Something that costs a lot of money, is out of reach of individuals, doesn't make it overpriced. What makes something over priced is generally something else on the market with the same features and capabilities at a lower cost, or if nothing else exists is far above reasonable product margin.

 

I wouldn't describe a HPE/Dell server as overpriced

I wouldn't describe a Shure SM58 microphone as overpriced

I wouldn't describe a Bosch Impact Driver as overpriced

I would describe a Mac Pro as overpriced

 

Problem for the Mac Pro is it actually covers both criteria for being known as overpriced, other hardware options exists on the market for less so when you compare like for like hardware spec configuration among OEMs Apple's MSRP is clearly an outlier. The balance factor is that Apple is the only option for officially supported Mac OS, if you want Mac OS and a high end workstation the Mac Pro is still an acceptable option but Apple actually sells more reasonably priced options that many can use to meet their needs easily. In a way Apple made the iMac Pro a little too high end in hardware configuration, so even compared to the iMac Pro the Mac Pro is overpriced.

[mr moose]

Just now, leadeater said:

Don't know about that, most professional equipment don't go for expensive and extravagant chassis or charge $999 for a substandard professional monitor mount. Professional equipment is often expensive not over priced. Something that costs a lot of money, is out of reach of individuals, doesn't make it overpriced. What makes something over priced is generally something else on the market with the same features and capabilities at a lower cost, or if nothing else exists is far above reasonable product margin.

 

I wouldn't describe a HPE/Dell server as overpriced

I wouldn't describe a Shure SM58 microphone as overpriced

I wouldn't describe a Bosch Impact Driver as overpriced

I would describe a Mac Pro as overpriced

 

Problem for the Mac Pro is it actually covers both criteria for being known as overpriced, other hardware options exists on the market for less so when you compare like for like hardware spec configuration among OEMs Apple's MSRP is clearly an outlier. The balance factor is that Apple is the only option for officially supported Mac OS, if you want Mac OS and a high end workstation the Mac Pro is still an acceptable option but Apple actually sells more reasonably priced options that many can use to meet their needs easily. In a way Apple made the iMac Pro a little too high end in hardware configuration, so even compared to the iMac Pro the Mac Pro is overpriced.

 

I think the problem is that people see professional gear costing more than domestic consumer gear yet don't stop to consider or compare the price of professional gear to other professional gear. 

 

If you can get an equal performing professional product for significantly less then one is over priced.  There is no "but professional" excuse for it.   Too often people mistake the price of apple products with them being superior.  The only way we can logically argue the price is legitimate is if it actually has a tangible benefit to justify the price tag.  

 

[leadeater]

23 minutes ago, mr moose said:

I think the problem is that people see professional gear costing more than domestic consumer gear yet don't stop to consider or compare the price of professional gear to other professional gear. 

 

If you can get an equal performing professional product for significantly less then one is over priced.  There is no "but professional" excuse for it.   Too often people mistake the price of apple products with them being superior.  The only way we can logically argue the price is legitimate is if it actually has a tangible benefit to justify the price tag.  

In regards to Apple and specifically Mac OS if Apple were to open that up for retail sale and usage on general computers I'm sure most would agree that for a large amount of buyers they would buy hardware from someone other than Apple. I'm not saying everything Apple makes is overpriced either but the stuff that is actually does hurt their reputation, like the $999 monitor stand.

 

The iPad is still and has always been the best tablet on the market and is priced competitively. The iMac Pro is an excellent combination at better than competitive pricing when you factor in the screen. Mac Mini for a very long time was the best true small form factor high performance PC, deployed a lot of those. MacBook Pro Early 2012 and earlier the best quality and all the I/O options you could need, best laptops made. Apple Pro Display XDR the lowest price professional display that is not in name/title only.

 

Apple does a lot of good things but just can't help doing dumb things and we remember the bad much more than the good.

[RedRound2]

32 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Don't know about that, most professional equipment don't go for expensive and extravagant chassis or charge $999 for a substandard professional monitor mount. Professional equipment is often expensive not overpriced. Something that costs a lot of money, is out of reach of individuals, doesn't make it overpriced. What makes something over priced is generally something else on the market with the same features and capabilities at a lower cost, or if nothing else exists is far above reasonable product margin.

Haven't you seen the cost of professional grade cameras and accessories. Red for example. Linus has so many videos showing exactly that. If you look for any workstation/professional grade equipment, they're all priced one above what people are normally used to.

 

Thats the first time I heard the Pro display mount to be called sub standard. People have been raving about the build quality and the mounting mechanism of it. Does it justify the price, no, but for customers its intended to, it's absolutely nothing.

32 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I wouldn't describe a HPE/Dell server as overpriced

I wouldn't describe a Shure SM58 microphone as overpriced

I wouldn't describe a Bosch Impact Driver as overpriced

I would describe a Mac Pro as overpriced

That's just you hating anything Apple does. Does the Mac Pro have the most optimised configuration. No. But you put in the same exact parts and it's not too far off. All dell/HP workstation are just ugly looking black plastic chassis, while the Mac Pro has a much superior build quality, better mechanisms, cabless config, etc all rightfully charged a slight premium for.

 

Now does that premium matter? No it doesn't, because it's not a machine meant for you and me. It's a machine meant for people or businesses who get their Mac Pros paid for itself in a couple of months at max.

32 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Problem for the Mac Pro is it actually covers both criteria for being known as overpriced, other hardware options exists on the market for less so when you compare like for like hardware spec configuration among OEMs Apple's MSRP is clearly an outlier. The balance factor is that Apple is the only option for officially supported Mac OS, if you want Mac OS and a high end workstation the Mac Pro is still an acceptable option but Apple actually sells more reasonably priced options that many can use to meet their needs easily. In a way Apple made the iMac Pro a little too high end in hardware configuration, so even compared to the iMac Pro the Mac Pro is overpriced.

Exactly, apple themselves have much more reasonably priced options for people like us. Mac Pro target market is not us and should ideally be ignored just like how pretty much every professional equipment gets ignored by the general public. 

 

The only problem they have is their finicky upgrade schedule which makes their current desktop lineuep not as powerful as it could be, which hopefully will get solved in coming years with ARM

 

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Haven't you seen the cost of professional grade cameras and accessories. Red for example. Linus has so many videos showing exactly that. If you look for any workstation/professional grade equipment, they're all priced one above what people are normally used to.

 

Thats the first time I heard the Pro display mount to be called sub standard. People have been raving about the build quality and the mounting mechanism of it. Does it justify the price, no, but for customers its intended to, it's absolutely nothing.

That's just you hating anything Apple does. Does the Mac Pro have the most optimised configuration. No. But you put in the same exact parts and it's not too far off. All dell/HP workstation are just ugly looking black plastic chassis, while the Mac Pro has a much superior build quality, better mechanisms, cabless config, etc all rightfully charged a slight premium for.

 

Now does that premium matter? No it doesn't, because it's not a machine meant for you and me. It's a machine meant for people or businesses who get their Mac Pros paid for itself in a couple of months at max.

Exactly, apple themselves have much more reasonably priced options for people like us. Mac Pro target market is not us and should ideally be ignored just like how pretty much every professional equipment gets ignored by the general public. 

 

The only problem they have is their finicky upgrade schedule which makes their current desktop lineuep not as powerful as it could be, which hopefully will get solved in coming years with ARM

 

pointing to other overpriced stuff doesn't make apple not overpriced. 

[cj09beira]

23 hours ago, leadeater said:

 

i raise you a leroy

 

[leadeater]

28 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Thats the first time I heard the Pro display mount to be called sub standard. People have been raving about the build quality and the mounting mechanism of it. Does it justify the price, no, but for customers its intended to, it's absolutely nothing.

It's substandard for a professional monitor mount, that's not a statement purely about build quality. Compare that stand to a proper VESA mount and you'll know why it's substandard, anyone buying the Apple stand is buying it for looks and looks only. Even the Apple VESA mount adapter is woefully priced when VESA mounts can cost less.

 

Why would I not pay a quarter of the price and get a gas spring weightless mount with all the adjustment and rotation possibilities? 

 

The Apple Pro Display XDR mount simply is not equivalent to a professional monitor mount.

 

28 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Haven't you seen the cost of professional grade cameras and accessories. Red for example. Linus has so many videos showing exactly that. If you look for any workstation/professional grade equipment, they're all priced one above what people are normally used to.

Accessories of it are indeed overpriced while others are not and neither is the main camera itself. You can compare to other options on the market and you'll see similar pricing. And yes they are priced above what people are normally used to, they aren't for 'people' they are for 'companies'.

 

Lets take Lord of the Rings for example, what do you think the cost is per hour of filming time on location? I think the extra cost in a strong metal body of the camera and strong mounting mechanisms for the accessories is more logical than risking damage/failure of equipment due to cost reduction focus. I know for a fact Peter Jackson has sprayed A LOT of fake blood over his Reds and they did not fault.

 

Things like the recording media I do agree are overpriced no matter how you look at it.

 

But lets jump back to criteria 1 of "Is it overpriced". Which other product on the market does the same thing with the same capabilities at a cheaper price?

 

28 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

That's just you hating anything Apple does. Does the Mac Pro have the most optimised configuration. No. But you put in the same exact parts and it's not too far off.

No it's critical assessment and I directly said in the post spec for spec Apple MSRP for the Mac Pro is clearly the outlier. Exact same parts from Dell/HP is cheaper, because they sell more than Apple does in that CPU market and they also do not put their components is very expensive chassis and their motherboards are a lower cost, but still high quality.

 

Base spec Mac Pro is horrible, it shouldn't exist and it just makes Apple look worse than is necessary. The lower the hardware configuration spec you choose the worse it is, high spec configurations only help mask this not excuse it.

 

28 minutes ago, RedRound2 said:

Mac Pro target market is not us and should ideally be ignored just like how pretty much every professional equipment gets ignored by the general public. 

No I am the market, or was. We purchased the 'trash cans', we purchase iMac Pros, we purchase iMacs and MacBook Pros. What we will never purchase is the new Mac Pros, they make zero sense and cannot be justified for us.

 

The people whos workload cannot work on an iMac Pro thus requires a Mac Pro is probably much smaller than you think. People will still get the Mac Pro anyway when the iMac Pro would have been fine, often it'll be done on the upgradability aspect but you'll find that is very rarely actually done.

[leadeater]

13 minutes ago, cj09beira said:

i raise you a leroy

Cleetus sponsors a Rocky Mountain Race Week class

Cleetus enters Rocky Mountain Race Week class he sponsored

Cleetus wins his Rocky Mountain Race Week class

 

Cleetus = genius  

Spoiler

James, get the toolbox!

 

[RedRound2]

1 hour ago, mr moose said:

pointing to other overpriced stuff doesn't make apple not overpriced. 

Read what I wrote properly before jumping and trying to make a reply like a creep for every comment I make in this forum. Also read what I was replying to, where leadeater did point out other overpriced stuff and claimed only the Mac Pro is overpriced

3 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Clearly you haven't seen workflow based reviews of the Mac Pro. It's overpriced, yes, but all professional equipment are. Plus you do get access to softwares, features and ecosystem that really isn't rivaled in any meaningful way

 

Their laptops and iMacs are decently priced - and that's a conclusion that LTT has also arrived at

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

It's substandard for a professional monitor mount, that's not a statement purely about build quality. Compare that stand to a proper VESA mount and you'll know why it's substandard, anyone buying the Apple stand is buying it for looks and looks only. Even the Apple VESA mount adapter is woefully priced when VESA mounts can cost less.

It was designed for looks and the "magic" (frictionless float) aspect. And it's completely optional to buy. So, people who want it or like it has to only buy it. You can get the much cheaper VESA mount or get a third party VESA mount, if you wanted. So I dont think you're allowed to hate on it just because you dont refer it. Clearly many people like it and that's enough

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Why would I not pay a quarter of the price and get a gas spring weightless mount with all the adjustment and rotation possibilities? 

And you're not the customer for it. Get that in your head. Nor am I.

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Accessories of it are indeed overpriced while others are not and neither is the main camera itself. You can compare to other options on the market and you'll see similar pricing. And yes they are priced above what people are normally used to, they aren't for 'people' they are for 'companies'.

What you mean main camera isnt overpriced. Those cameras are uselesss without acessories, and what you're effectively paying for is dead weight if you don't have the rest of the overpriced stuff. And the last point I bolded is the answer to your inital issue with MAc Pro. We're not the customers for it

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Lets take Lord of the Rings for example, what do you think the cost is per hour of filming time on location? I think the extra cost in a strong metal body of the camera and strong mounting mechanisms for the accessories is more logical than risking damage/failure of equipment due to cost reduction focus. I know for a fact Peter Jackson has sprayed A LOT of fake blood over his Reds and they did not fault.

Yeah but a strong handle doesn't cost $700 dollars to make. If I wanted, i could fabricate an even stronger one for less than $50 dollars. But point being, the market these products are targetting don't really care

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

No it's critical assessment and I directly said in the post spec for spec Apple MSRP for the Mac Pro is clearly the outlier. Exact same parts from Dell/HP is cheaper, because they sell more than Apple does in that CPU market and they also do not put their components is very expensive chassis and their motherboards are a lower cost, but still high quality.

Does the dell/HP have the same build quality? And the Mac Pro internals are definitely different and a lot of thought has been put into it rather than just slapping together some off the shelf components. Is it necessary, no. But it actually makes a difference in other ways and thats why Apple is where they are right now. Attention to detail, design, overengineering is exactly the kind of things they do.

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

Base spec Mac Pro is horrible, it shouldn't exist and it just makes Apple look worse than is necessary. The lower the hardware configuration spec you choose the worse it is, high spec configurations only help mask this not excuse it.

It's to discourage you from buying it. It exists to upsell. Again we're not the customers so we shouldnt care. Apple themselves have better products for same price and anyone with time for 2 min research can find that out.

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

No I am the market, or was. We purchased the 'trash cans', we purchase iMac Pros, we purchase iMacs and MacBook Pros. What we will never purchase is the new Mac Pros, they make zero sense and cannot be justified for us.

EXACTLY. You;re not the customer for it. Some people need tonnes of RAM. Some need tonnes fo CPU cores. Some need pelnty of expansion slots. FOr those cases, the Mac Pro comes in

1 hour ago, leadeater said:

The people whos workload cannot work on an iMac Pro thus requires a Mac Pro is probably much smaller than you think. People will still get the Mac Pro anyway when the iMac Pro would have been fine, often it'll be done on the upgradability aspect but you'll find that is very rarely actually done.

It is small, I never said it was big. Mac Pro is a niche product with blown out of propotion attention. Peole who want Mac Pros buy Mac Pros. People who want more price/perf can go with any of their other Mac products. Its as simple as that

[Kisai]

5 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

 

Does the dell/HP have the same build quality? And the Mac Pro internals are definitely different and a lot of thought has been put into it rather than just slapping together some off the shelf components. Is it necessary, no. But it actually makes a difference in other ways and thats why Apple is where they are right now. Attention to detail, design, overengineering is exactly the kind of things they do.

 

When you start pricing everything out against the Mac Pro at the time of announcement, the only thing that was significantly overpriced was the RAM, nothing else. You could even get a Dell system that was more expensive and had less CPU cores. When you can no longer make a piece-to-piece BYO comparison, it starts turning into guess work and idiots comparing Mac Pro's to conventional desktops and not the high-end workstations that they really are.

 

The wheels on the other hand seemed like some kind of over-engineered thing, just like the non-VESA monitor arm. These are things that are aesthetically pleasing and likely not even a consideration. That XDR monitor, isn't even that much of an outlier in price (5000-6000USD) when you look up proper 4K HDR screens last year. It's certainly overkill if you're not doing work on film though.

 

All it really comes down to is if that's what the business or user wants. Apple does not make "rubbish-tier" models just to inflate their "sales" numbers. These are take-it-or-leave-it configurations and even if Dell or HP offers something competatively priced, it still does not have OSX, Final Cut, Logic Pro, etc. Heck, it's kinda hard to even find the software on Apple's site as just about everything on there is designed to drive you to hardware sales.

https://www.apple.com/ca/logic-pro/

https://www.apple.com/ca/final-cut-pro/

 

Apple prices are actually lower or similar to what they were in the 80's. $1400 USD for an Apple II in 1983 dollars would be like $3686 USD today. That's like buying the 27" iMac with 32GB of RAM today. Where IBM's XT was $7545 in 1983 dollars would be like $19,422.62 USD (or roughly the Mac Pro with 16 cores, 384Gb ram, Pro Vega II Duo, and a 1TB SSD.) The Tandy CoCo was $400 in 1980 which would be roughly $1244 today, or about the same price as the MacBook Air. For fair comparison, the original mac was $2495 USD in 1984 and would be like $6,156.91 USD today, or about the same price as the iMac Pro 3.0Ghz, with 64GB of ram.

 

Adjusted for inflation, if anything the value of a whitebox PC was brought down from competitive forces, while the prices of Apple's products have largely remained the same.

 

 

[Jeppes]

7 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

EXACTLY. You;re not the customer for it. Some people need tonnes of RAM. Some need tonnes fo CPU cores. Some need pelnty of expansion slots. FOr those cases, the Mac Pro comes in

 

Thats where Threadripper pro comes in. Apple is for fans who can justify the inferior cpu and gpu somehow.

[Jumballi]

8 hours ago, leadeater said:

No it's critical assessment and I directly said in the post spec for spec Apple MSRP for the Mac Pro is clearly the outlier. Exact same parts from Dell/HP is cheaper, because they sell more than Apple does in that CPU market and they also do not put their components is very expensive chassis and their motherboards are a lower cost, but still high quality.

Sometimes my time/money is better spent on the apple for apple problems and apple solutions to those problems. I just don't have the effort/time/money to find out whether or not the HP/Dell server supports bifurcation and wait 7 hours on the line for a sales rep to possibly give a solution. And it's not like HP/Dell don't pull some BS like laying out parts in lower end configurations that prevent upgrades or make it difficult to get a motherboard upgrade(to get the features I need) without making me buy another server.

When the hardware solution is the only solution from the brand, then I can expect to to either work, or someone to have had the problem, making my job easier in checking if it meets my needs vs checking every single SKU that the competition has.

[mr moose]

8 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Read what I wrote properly before jumping and trying to make a reply like a creep for every comment I make in this forum.

Why make this personal? Don't call me a creep because I disagree with you.  I did read your comment, it was wrong and I pointed out that when you compare professional to professional the price difference is much higher for some apple products.  Like it or not that makes them over priced.

 

 

1 hour ago, Kisai said:

When you start pricing everything out against the Mac Pro at the time of announcement, the only thing that was significantly overpriced was the RAM, nothing else.

 

 

 

It has been demonstrated several times that you can get a machine spec'd the same as the mac pro including all warranties and after sales services for less.  I linked to a company in the original mac pro thread that will do it.  If you go with a larger company like dell or HP you end up paying the same at best ( the only difference there is you aren't restricted to the original SSD or using proprietary GPU cradles).

 

 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, Jumballi said:

and wait 7 hours on the line for a sales rep to possibly give a solution.

It's got to be better than waiting 2 years for apple to even accept there was a problem.

[emosun]

On 7/12/2020 at 3:38 PM, Lord Vile said:

They did run tomb raider at decent quality whilst being emulated on what is essentially an Alpha piece or hardware.  

yeah but tomb raider runs on the original play station from 94 so who cares

[Lord Vile]

6 minutes ago, emosun said:

yeah but tomb raider runs on the original play station from 94 so who cares

It was Shadow of the Tomb raider which definitely would not run on a PS

[emosun]

1 minute ago, Lord Vile said:

It was Shadow of the Tomb raider which definitely would not run on a PS

nobody said shadow of the tomb raider would run on the original playstation

[Lord Vile]

Just now, emosun said:

nobody said shadow of the tomb raider would run on the original playstation

I know, I was clearing up your confusion. Though I don't see why you'd think they'd use the OG tomb raider as a tech demo... 

[mr moose]

1 hour ago, emosun said:

nobody said shadow of the tomb raider would run on the original playstation

sottr runs on an i3 ivy bridge.  So running it on ARM should be within the realms of most top tier designs these days.

[emosun]

4 minutes ago, mr moose said:

sottr runs on an i3 ivy bridge.  So running it on ARM should be within the realms of most top tier designs these days.

uh ok

[leadeater]

3 hours ago, Jumballi said:

I just don't have the effort/time/money to find out whether or not the HP/Dell server supports bifurcation and wait 7 hours on the line for a sales rep to possibly give a solution

If you're wondering that question and trying to find it out then you are trying to buy a consumer Intel platform with a consumer Intel chipset, that's not a Mac pro equivalent. HP Z series is, and yes anything with the Xeon-W chipset supports that it's not an Apple thing at all. Literally Intel controls that so you just look at the chipset and that is your answer.

[Lord Vile]

12 minutes ago, mr moose said:

sottr runs on an i3 ivy bridge.  So running it on ARM should be within the realms of most top tier designs these days.

Would love to see you running SoTR on just an i3

[leadeater]

11 hours ago, RedRound2 said:

Does the dell/HP have the same build quality? And the Mac Pro internals are definitely different and a lot of thought has been put into it rather than just slapping together some off the shelf components. Is it necessary, no. But it actually makes a difference in other ways and thats why Apple is where they are right now. Attention to detail, design, overengineering is exactly the kind of things they do.

 

Wow have you even bothered to look at HP Z series workstations? That's extremely rude comment to make and shows how little you care about the discussion or are willing to even evaluate anything.

 

 

100% Tooless design

Engineered airflow

Dual socket support

Discrete cabling channel through the chassis

 

Did I also mention this is actually an older model from 2015? Also that it's not the oldest of that design, there's Z810 & Z800 as well as older.

 

The current model is the Z8

 

 

Slapping parts together, off the shelf. Could you not be so ignorant and actually go look at what you are commenting on before shooting off comments like that?