stupid question in my exam

[mr moose]

2 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

It's clear which answer the teacher wants, but it's still a stupid question. Both PCs are capable of backups.

But using only the information provided you can only conclusively say one is capable of backups.

2 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

Right now, I have to make the assumption you have a writeable media at hand. I can just as well assume you have a USB stick available. In fact I would say the chance of someone owning a USB stick or USB drive in this day and age is far more likely then them having a writable DVD.

You don't have to make assumptions though, the question is which PC "allows" you to make backups, computer A is the only computer with listed hardware capable of making a backup.  As silly as it sounds these types of questions pop up all the time everywhere.  Usually they are they to weed out the people who over think and make assumptions. 

 

[Eigenvektor]

Quote

But using only the information provided you can only conclusively say one is capable of backups.

This is where I have to disagree though. Both are capable of making backups, even if you may not have the correct medium at hand. They are technically able to do so.

Quote

You don't have to make assumptions though, the question is which PC "allows" you to make backups, computer A is the only computer with listed hardware capable of making a backup. 

You still have to assume that you have a writable DVD at hand. Otherwise the DVD writer is useless. As I said, if I'm allowed to assume that, I may just as well assume you have a USB drive.

 

Also, as I said, unless you define "backup", I can go ahead and say that a copy of a file is a backup. The question, as stated, is imprecise and with the given information I have to make assumptions. If someone (in the real world) gave me this question, my first and only answer would be: "define backup, what are you trying to protect against"

[Lord Vile]

3 hours ago, comander said:

No one stated that there was blank media available for the DVD drive either. 

 

It's also an assumption that System B would not have USB ports. Statistically speaking, the probability of system B having USB ports is higher than system A having blank disks available. Anyone with a background in Bayesian statistics would be appalled. 

 

 

 

Unfortunately, you have to make assumptions to answer this question as it is not non-ambiguous. The fact that you have to make assumptions is why it's a bad question. 

 

 

It's literally a case where you have to read between the lines because of how poor a job the test creator did. 

 

 

Never in my years have I come across such a shitty question and I have a masters degree from an "elite" University and took a couple of tech related courses from the engineering department. For context, I was in the top vigintile on the GRE Verbal section. As in I did better than 95%+ of MS and Phd prospects on the section with critical reading, despite the fact that I only really cared about my math score. That's better than the typical English PhD candidate at Harvard. 

 

It's a shitty question because it relies on a lot of assumptions that are unlikely to hold up. Anything with a USB port or network connectivity(Ethernet and WiFi qualify) can make backups. System A has those ports, it's verifiable by the model number. System B almost surely has those ports as well. 

 

Pr(no external interfaces | model = Acer M1939) = 0%

 

Pr(no external interfaces | desktop LGA 775 CPU & Windows 7) ~= 0%

 

Bear in mind that windows 7 came out after system B's CPU stopped being widely distributed which implies that the data was somehow modified by some sort of external media... 

 

 

The question isn’t asking you to make backups it’s asking which system CAN. A can B can’t end of.
 

You’re not assuming anything. You have a list of components and you go by that list, you don’t assume it has USB ports, Ethernet or an eSATA port. 

 

You can’t verify during the exam and based on the rest of the question it was likely an error to put the brand and model in.
 

Having been to university and been in a lab environment you cannot assume anything beyond a known standard (Speed of light for example or that a gas behaves ideally). 
 

Don’t give a shit about a masters or PhDs, they actually mean fuck all, I know some retards with masters degrees. Personally I dropped out of uni between 2nd and 3rd year, didn’t see the point when the vast majority of jobs are analytical and if I did another GCMS I was probably going to jump out of the window. 

[GDRRiley]

1 hour ago, Lord Vile said:

The question isn’t asking you to make backups it’s asking which system CAN. A can B can’t end of.
 

You’re not assuming anything. You have a list of components and you go by that list, you don’t assume it has USB ports, Ethernet or an esata 

Both can but there isn’t enough detail to distinguish. 

You let me know If you found any i3 or core 2 duo with 0 USB, Ethernet or esata and no other working sata ports. 
it’s a poorly written old question. It should have been retired like the comp sci teacher who wrote it 10 years ago. 
(I’ve got nothing against teachers but I’m tired of bad comp sci/IT.) 

[Lord Vile]

3 hours ago, comander said:

100% of the systems with profile A can make backups, assuming no hardware defects. 
99.9999% of systems with the profile of B can make backups assuming no defective hardware. 


Assuming the hardware works is a much stronger assumption than assuming that B is not an edge case configuration. 


In bayesian terms, you'd describe the difference between A and B as a non-informative prior. 

Most regularization schemes would throw it out. 
If you were doing a decision tree based on log-entropy/gini/MSE with any sort of materiality requirement for the splitting rule, you wouldn't split on A/B.

Avariable importance plot would place A/B as being below the noise floor. 


This is the reason why it's a shitty question. The differences between the two options are non-informative. 

The professor who wrote that question should be reprimanded as the information given should be material. It isn't. The point isn't that the answer couldn't be inferred, it's that accepting that as a valid question implies low standards for what is acceptable. 
 

You were the person to bring up higher level mathematics... I'm not afraid of taking a graduate level numerical analysis, machine learning, number theory or real analysis course. I might take a gentleman's B (I'm not good at focused studying - I'm more of a superficially skim 50 classes and do OK kind of guy vs take 2 and dominate them) if I did it at a place like Harvard but... I'd leave with the key points. 
 

Correct. Not all programs are created equally. 
With that said, some of that could be a reflection of the company you keep. 
The likelihood of running into a low caliber person generally decreases with improvements the pedigree of an institute (I.e. the percentage of low caliber people at city colleges is much higher than at Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, Caltech, Chicago, etc.) and when looking at rigorous programs (so not underwater basket weaving or grievance studies)
 

At least in the US, the "good" analytical jobs expect a university degree. The baseline assumption is that these programs filter out people who struggle either due to a lack of talent or diligence. There are obviously those who don't fit that mold and succeed in spite of their pedigree or lack thereof. 

 

Fwiw my coworkers don't have directly relevant degrees to what they do now(analytics). One did physics at MIT, another has an engineering masters from Stanford and my current boss has an MBA from Chicago. They all learned what they needed to. The policy was filter for potential, look for skills last. 

I’m sorry but how would you make a backup from system B exactly? I would really like to know. 
 

They are informative. Say it with me now. System A has method of backup on list, System B no have method of making backup on list. Good boy. 
 

Actually getting into a good university has nothing to do with how intelligent you are. It’s if your face fits. I know people who went to the Oxford and Cambridge assessment, passed the exams with flying colours and went on to destroy the grade entry requirements. Y’know why they didn’t get in? Because their face didn’t fit. 
 

Analytical jobs are boring as fuck, reason I dropped out, loved the subject, passed most of the exams without trying but analytical work is literally the same as watch paint dry. And I mean actual analytical work where you actually have to have the correct degree because it’s not just numbers you have to understand what’s behind them.

[Lord Vile]

14 hours ago, comander said:

Using the built in interfaces that exist in virtually 100% of systems with those characteristics.
It's a very weak assumption that the system has USB, eSATA, a NIC or a wifi adapter relative to either system actually working.

Again, the principle complaint is that the question was poorly made and only those with poor taste would tolerate the low quality.  

No, it's because they didn't put in enough time to interview practice and resume building. 
It really is that simple. I say that as someone who gone through the application process for multiple Ivy league schools, done the whole interview with a current student/adcom thing, etc. You actually have to prepare for interviews. The kids at Eton actually do that. 

You have to prove that you don't have poor taste. 
 

Comparing my current job to the job I had in low-wage retail (think analogous to Tesco clerk - same thing over and over, very repetitive, boring, mindless), I'd take the current any day. I make around 20-30x as much, I have a lot of autonomy, I have constant new challenges, etc. 

Most roles at places on this list are technical/analytical:

https://www.teamblind.com/post/TOP-TECH-COMPANY-RANKINGS---2019-EDITION-JYYEhQ1h

Note how people are arguing over which $300,000/year job has the best free food, the best onsite massages and the nicest bowling alleys.

I agree it is a weak assumption that the system has USB or any other unlisted interface, so how would you make a backup with no interfaces for data transfer? 
 

You mean the kids at Eton that automatically get in because they went to Eton? That’s been known for years. The interview is literally to weed out those who don’t “deserve” to go. You get a few a year that aren’t from the elite, y'know the poor smart kid who gets a scholarship. For example I wouldn’t get into Cambridge or Oxford, not that I’d want to, because I sound northern and I’m not a millionaire. Again not that I’d want to go I don’t deal well with posh cunts. 
 

Good job I’m not a Tesco clerk  I’d take a better paid monotonous job over a minimum wage one any day but I’ve just swapped for electrical engineering, much more fun. 
 

Yeah that’s not the analytical I mean I mean analytical chemistry. Where you actually have to have the chemistry knowledge to know what equipment to use, how to set it up, what kind (I’ll call them filters here) of filters to use etc and how to read the graph effectively afterwards. Analytical work as in essentially maths isn’t hard anyone with a science or engineering orientated background should be able to do it or get to grips with it fairly easily, for quite a few though I’d expect you’d need to know how to code which most university’s have workshops for that now. 
 

 

 

[mr moose]

On 4/27/2020 at 5:31 PM, Eigenvektor said:

This is where I have to disagree though. Both are capable of making backups, even if you may not have the correct medium at hand.

No they are not, the second computer has no listed way of getting data off the machine in to form of a backup Media existing or not.

On 4/27/2020 at 5:31 PM, Eigenvektor said:

They are technically able to do so.

You still have to assume that you have a writable DVD at hand. Otherwise the DVD writer is useless. As I said, if I'm allowed to assume that, I may just as well assume you have a USB drive.

Nope. the problem is quite clear. It is not asking if it can do it with specific external resources, it's asking that with only the hardware listed which on can.  Whether you have a bunch of discs or USB sticks is irrelevant.  Only computer has the ability to make a backup without making assumption.

 

On 4/27/2020 at 5:31 PM, Eigenvektor said:

Also, as I said, unless you define "backup", I can go ahead and say that a copy of a file is a backup. The question, as stated, is imprecise and with the given information I have to make assumptions. If someone (in the real world) gave me this question, my first and only answer would be: "define backup, what are you trying to protect against"

 

Back up is already defined fairly roundly as a copy of any data in a second place.  It has no bearing on this problem.   What you are doing now is reading into the problem too far.  you are now playing semantics with the definition of the word "backup" when the question only asked you which computer could make one.  If you tried this on a entry test at my work I would not hire you.  And don;t think this is just me trying to leverage an argument as I've seen it first hand in HR many times.  Questions like "outline the process for filling a car" then they give you 5 small lines.  Every one who tries to cover all the safety precautions or gets too detailed loses, those who can articulate how to do something simply go tot he next round.  That's what many of them are designed for.   Every test has questions that make you cringe, but more often than not it is supposed to be that way.

[AngryBeaver]

I feel like some of you have never taken any IT certs. If so you would see many of the all of the following answers are correct, but please provide the most correct answer type questions.

 

For this one in particular you have to consider a closed ecosystem. Meaning each machine operates in a bubble without any outside ethernet or drives.

 

So from that stand point the only drive with removable media in that case is machine A. 

[teddygala]

On 4/24/2020 at 5:49 PM, Lakobrija said:

As fast as I readed that "RAM memory" I started to be really annoyed by fact that people who teach us are stupidier than us

EDIT: now I read the entire rig specs and for both computers they said they have "Windows 7 Home Premium". So, I would say none of these is correct, since it have unexistable os

learn how to spell if you want to sound smart. 

[Bombastinator]

59 minutes ago, teddygala said:

learn how to spell if you want to sound smart. 

“Stupid” is a BS term in this case.  Intelligence and education are separate things.  Also they may not be the ones deciding what is on the test.

[Lakobrija]

1 hour ago, teddygala said:

learn how to spell if you want to sound smart. 

Be more useful and tell me where did I made mistake and how to correct it

[mr moose]

3 hours ago, Lakobrija said:

Be more useful and tell me where did I made mistake and how to correct it

You're spending too much time critiquing the test and looking for flaws that you have missed the simple nature of the test.  This is the problem it seems lots of people have.  Any question (even well constructed and precise) can be reasoned and pulled apart with assumptions or inferences of definitions.  The problem is you don't need to do this to understand the question it only takes you further from the correct answer.

 

As I have said before, questions like this show the examiner if you are capable of following simple direction, using only the information you have to do something or if you are willing to make assumptions and take risks with meaning.   By assuming the examiner is stupid because you reasoned their are multiple answers you showed the examiner you can't give a basic answer given basic information.  

 

EDIT: just so you know, this isn't about you or your intelligence,  My English is abysmal and I frankly don't care, I know what I know, I know my experiences and I know never to judge someones intelligence based on their language.    This things I am talking about happens to all of us to some degree and to most at a higher degree.  It happened to me in my first few job applications, no one had taught me the KISS system, so when I had to detail a potentially hazardous process (after completing several years of Fire services and emergency response training mind you) I over thought it and missed out. Not a dig by any stretch of the imagination, just keeping it to the point.   Also for the record ANGRYbeavers response 5 posts back,  I think is the best response because it so clearly articulates what the problem is without long paragraphs.

[Lakobrija]

25 minutes ago, mr moose said:

You're spending too much time critiquing the test and looking for flaws that you have missed the simple nature of the test.  This is the problem it seems lots of people have.  Any question (even well constructed and precise) can be reasoned and pulled apart with assumptions or inferences of definitions.  The problem is you don't need to do this to understand the question it only takes you further from the correct answer.

 

As I have said before, questions like this show the examiner if you are capable of following simple direction, using only the information you have to do something or if you are willing to make assumptions and take risks with meaning.   By assuming the examiner is stupid because you reasoned their are multiple answers you showed the examiner you can't give a basic answer given basic information.  

 

EDIT: just so you know, this isn't about you or your intelligence,  My English is abysmal and I frankly don't care, I know what I know, I know my experiences and I know never to judge someones intelligence based on their language.    This things I am talking about happens to all of us to some degree and to most at a higher degree.  It happened to me in my first few job applications, no one had taught me the KISS system, so when I had to detail a potentially hazardous process (after completing several years of Fire services and emergency response training mind you) I over thought it and missed out. Not a dig by any stretch of the imagination, just keeping it to the point.   Also for the record ANGRYbeavers response 5 posts back,  I think is the best response because it so clearly articulates what the problem is without long paragraphs.

teddygala said I have grammar mistakes, not saying anything about statements I made, but let's go with this anyway. English is not my native, just to point that out.

I myself assumed A as correct of these 2, but for me it was more important to point out mistakes in question itself, like for most of the people here. I do have 4 years of IT high school and in school I was annoyed by really wrong statements of my professors (when they happen and when I actually notice them), as well as wrong callouts for things. Example is ram, I had professor who continuesly called it RAM MEMORY, and she wasn't that old, like 30. Others claimed dual cores as strong and advanced high end cpus, agp slot is still important and and floppy is still a thing. We had to use libreoffice instead of ms office, and on linux ofc. All these things annoyed me and maded me angry many times, maybe thats reason why I had been "overly aggressive" towards teacher. Just my complexes I guess

[mr moose]

8 minutes ago, Lakobrija said:

teddygala said I have grammar mistakes, not saying anything about statements I made, but let's go with this anyway. English is not my native, just to point that out.

I myself assumed A as correct of these 2, but for me it was more important to point out mistakes in question itself, like for most of the people here. I do have 4 years of IT high school and in school I was annoyed by really wrong statements of my professors (when they happen and when I actually notice them), as well as wrong callouts for things. Example is ram, I had professor who continuesly called it RAM MEMORY, and she wasn't that old, like 30. Others claimed dual cores as strong and advanced high end cpus, agp slot is still important and and floppy is still a thing. We had to use libreoffice instead of ms office, and on linux ofc. All these things annoyed me and maded me angry many times, maybe thats reason why I had been "overly aggressive" towards teacher. Just my complexes I guess

Sounds to me like you are being pedantic (not an insult, I am to, more often than I will admit).    Trust me, you will always see millions of little errors in the world everywhere you go, you have to learn to let them go because the the reality is half of them will be lack of information on your part, many will be insignificant to the real world outcome and in some small cases they will be genuinely moronic but beyond your ability to control anyway.  If you insist on trying to correct these then you isolate yourself as a person with an issue (deserved or not), as has already happened in this thread when some one tried to use your language to question your intelligence.

 

There are lots of things like you mention that used to annoy me, like calling it an IC circuit or ABS brakes and  when they added lol to the dictionary.  Listening to tech forum kiddies call it coil whine, and reading all the half informed humdrum on PSU tier lists (I have an extensive education in electronic hardware and know BS reasoning when I see it) used to drive me nuts.  But it doesn't help to constantly tell people why they are wrong (trust me on that), and in cases like this it is kept very simple for a good reason, so if you let your annoyance with other things (that may very well be genuine) flow over to this you may miss out on a big opportunity.

 

 

[teddygala]

16 hours ago, Lakobrija said:

Be more useful and tell me where did I made mistake and how to correct it

lol you wrote "stupidier". That really undermines your argument when you are trying to sound serious

[Sauron]

17 hours ago, Lakobrija said:

Be more useful and tell me where did I made mistake and how to correct it

I'll try, if you find it useful:

Quote

As fast as

The correct expression is "as soon as"

Quote

I readed

The past tense of "to read" is "I read", which is pronounced more or less as "I red"

Quote

I readed that "RAM memory"

"that" here is unnecessary. "As soon as I read 'RAM memory'" is better.

Quote

I started to be really annoyed by fact

You forgot an article: "I started to be really annoyed by the fact..."

 

Also usually people say "I started to get really annoyed"

Quote

stupidier

The correct spelling is "stupider".

Quote

I would say none of these is correct

"these" is plural so you should write "none of these are correct"

Quote

since it have

Again, plural: "since they have"

Quote

unexistable os

If you mean to say that the operating system doesn't exist then the correct word is "nonexistent". You also forgot the "a". The sentence would then be "since they have a nonexistent os" and the full post (with better punctuation) would be:

Quote

As soon as I read "RAM memory" I started to get really annoyed by the fact that people who teach us are stupider than us.

Edit: Now I read the entire rig specs and, for both computers, they said they have "Windows 7 Home Premium" so I would say none of these are correct since they have a nonexistent os.

 

It does exist though... https://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Windows-Premium-System-Builder/dp/B00H09BB16

 

There could be more mistakes that I missed but I'm not a native English speaker either.

[Sauron]

On 4/27/2020 at 7:55 AM, mr moose said:

You guys are reading way to far into this.   If you have to make an assumption about something then your answer is wrong.  The only information they give is that one of the computers has a DVD writer the other doesn't,  If they don't specifically mention NAS, servers, cloud backups or USB drives then they literally are only asking you which can make a back up of data and files with the hardware given.

By that same logic, who says we have a virgin DVD on hand?

 

Not to mention the answer is still "both" because you could just make a local backup on a different partition of the HDD.

On 4/27/2020 at 8:31 AM, GDRRiley said:

this is why I hate comp sci. so much bad and pointless teaching 

This ain't compsci, it's a sorry excuse for it...

14 hours ago, mr moose said:

You're spending too much time critiquing the test and looking for flaws that you have missed the simple nature of the test.  This is the problem it seems lots of people have.  Any question (even well constructed and precise) can be reasoned and pulled apart with assumptions or inferences of definitions.  The problem is you don't need to do this to understand the question it only takes you further from the correct answer.

Obviously the "correct answer", as in the answer that will give you full score, is A - we got that far on the first page and if this test was given to any of us on an important occasion (such as an entry test for a company that might hire us) I think we'd manage not to lose our minds over it.

 

That doesn't change the fact that it's fundamentally a bad question with wrong assumptions and nothing useful to teach. Learning what a "backup" is should never involve DVD drives so directly that you would be expected to say that you can't do it without one. A question like this completely misses the point of what a student should be expected to learn.

 

Also it's clearly an advertisement for Acer.

[iBabySlapper]

Back up copies of what lol

[Sauron]

Just now, ibabyslapper said:

Back up copies of what lol

Your dank memes folder of course

[iBabySlapper]

16 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Your dank memes folder of course

and your secret file of sekrit soviet dokuments ofc

[GDRRiley]

5 hours ago, Sauron said:

This ain't compsci, it's a sorry excuse for it...

this happens when you let math teacher teach comp sci

[akio123008]

System.FormatException: input string "g4" was not in a correct format

[mr moose]

7 hours ago, Sauron said:

By that same logic, who says we have a virgin DVD on hand?

 

Not to mention the answer is still "both" because you could just make a local backup on a different partition of the HDD.

Standard definition of a backup copy is on a place other than the original device, it can technically be on the same device if it's something you're about to edit and want to "back up", but that is again making things more technical then they need to be to answer the questuion.  

 

7 hours ago, Sauron said:

 

 

That doesn't change the fact that it's fundamentally a bad question with wrong assumptions and nothing useful to teach. Learning what a "backup" is should never involve DVD drives so directly that you would be expected to say that you can't do it without one. A question like this completely misses the point of what a student should be expected to learn.

 

The assumptions here are coming solely from you guys.  You are assuming it is supposed to be more specific.   The fact everyone has got their nickers bunched up over a simple test is testimony itself to why they have them.   You can see the importance of being able to work with limited information.

 

7 hours ago, Sauron said:

Also it's clearly an advertisement for Acer.

What?  or maybe the Office lady who was charged with typing this up cut and past from an in house IT memo and cut out the bits that weren't needed simply forgetting to remove the name from one.   Not everything is a marketing exercise.

[Sauron]

19 minutes ago, mr moose said:

The assumptions here are coming solely from you guys.  You are assuming it is supposed to be more specific.   The fact everyone has got their nickers bunched up over a simple test is testimony itself to why they have them.   You can see the importance of being able to work with limited information.

Nah, one thing is working with limited information, another is the information just not being there. If this were an overall attitude test I could maybe see it, but this is a school test designed to test knowledge and it doesn't accomplish that.

20 minutes ago, mr moose said:

What?  or maybe the Office lady who was charged with typing this up cut and past from an in house IT memo and cut out the bits that weren't needed simply forgetting to remove the name from one.   Not everything is a marketing exercise.

How comes they felt the need to specify the model and brand for the "right" answer but not for the other one? Not everything is a coincidence.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, Sauron said:

Nah, one thing is working with limited information, another is the information just not being there. If this were an overall attitude test I could maybe see it, but this is a school test designed to test knowledge and it doesn't accomplish that.

It's not there for a reason.   I've seen these before and spoken to the people who write them. They intentionally leave out as much as they can so there is only one right answer.  The people who get confused and want more information are the people they don't want to pass.  

 

Is it really that hard to see that if your employing someone to build an IT system that you don't want someone who is going to make assumptions?   I don't, If  need 30 office PC's and the bloke install parts based on an assumption then I spending more than I need to.    High schools endeavor to teach kids how to get a job, not how to do that job.  It frankly is a bit shocking that so many people think they work in the industry and haven't encountered this type of question before.  The test is clearly not on your masters exam so why treat it like that. 

 

1 minute ago, Sauron said:

How comes they felt the need to specify the model and brand for the "right" answer but not for the other one? Not everything is a coincidence.

That's an assumption.   I never said it was a coincidence, I said it was just as likely to be mistake. I gave another very possible (and lets be realistic here, more plausible reason) for its to have happened.   

 

Otherwise your also going to have to assume that acer paid off the office lady to edit the test to maybe sell an extra pc to a student.  C'mon.  lets stop this before it gets really silly.