stupid question in my exam

[Sauron]

9 hours ago, mr moose said:

It's not there for a reason.

I feel like that's a really bad reason on a school test.

9 hours ago, mr moose said:

Is it really that hard to see that if your employing someone to build an IT system that you don't want someone who is going to make assumptions?

For starters, a "computer science" course isn't supposed to teach you the specifics of being a sysadmin in a bank or whatever. It's supposed to teach you computer science. Secondly, making assumptions here doesn't work because the question itself is contrived and artificial - this would never come up like this in a real world scenario. In fact, reasoning like this could lead the company to spend thousands on outdated crap they don't need because an IT guy decided you could only make a backup with the more expensive machine that has a DVD drive.

 

Imagine this same reasoning being applied to a math test...

 

"which of these numbers has a square root?"

I. 2

II. 4

 

the "correct" answer here is probably II because you assume that the teacher only taught the stundents about integer roots. That's still not only wrong but actively misleading for students who will go on to learn that non-integer roots do, in fact, exist - and it doesn't teach them anything about assumptions or decision making, it's just a dumb trick question that relies on you not knowing math to be able to answer swiftly. I would not hire someone for an engineering position if they thought that the right answer was II in a test I gave them - I would rather they asked for clarification, showing at least that they understand the question is wrong. Also, personally, I would just not put a wrong question in the test intentionally.

9 hours ago, mr moose said:

That's an assumption.   I never said it was a coincidence, I said it was just as likely to be mistake. I gave another very possible (and lets be realistic here, more plausible reason) for its to have happened.

I consider it an educated guess, after all there's plenty of history of companies offering to "help" schools with their computer related courses and just using that platform to shove ads down students' throats. This is further hinted at by the OP saying they have Acer hardware at school.

9 hours ago, mr moose said:

Otherwise your also going to have to assume that acer paid off the office lady to edit the test to maybe sell an extra pc to a student.

Unfortunately it's more likely to have been the opposite - the school paid Acer to have them write this test and Acer threw in as many brand shoutouts as possible.

[mr moose]

5 minutes ago, Sauron said:

I feel like that's a really bad reason on a school test.

Feel away, it's common practice and has been for decades.   Apart from what I have already said, the other problem with broad or greater detail in questions is that the more information you put in the more chance there is of being a second correct answer (and this is not that. As there is no way to argue that with the given information a backup can be made on the second computer) which results in some curriculum as grades having to be adjusted up or down skewing results.  

5 minutes ago, Sauron said:

For starters, a "computer science" course isn't supposed to teach you the specifics of being a sysadmin in a bank or whatever. It's supposed to teach you computer science.

It's a high school test for high school IT.  lets not get ahead of ourselves.

5 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Secondly, making assumptions here doesn't work because the question itself is contrived and artificial - this would never come up like this in a real world scenario. In fact, reasoning like this could lead the company to spend thousands on outdated crap they don't need because an IT guy decided you could only make a backup with the more expensive machine that has a DVD drive.

What?  do you honestly think the point of the question is to prepare you for a real worlds scenario? 

 

AS I already said:

 

10 hours ago, mr moose said:

 High schools endeavor to teach kids how to get a job, not how to do that job.

 

This test is to determine if the student has listened in class and is answering the question he was asked, not the question he thinks he should be asked.

 

5 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Imagine this same reasoning being applied to a math test...

 

"which of these numbers has a square root?"

I. 2

II. 4

 

the "correct" answer here is probably II because you assume that the teacher only taught the stundents about integer roots. That's still not only wrong but actively misleading for students who will go on to learn that non-integer roots do, in fact, exist - and it doesn't teach them anything about assumptions or decision making, it's just a dumb trick question that relies on you not knowing math to be able to answer swiftly. I would not hire someone for an engineering position if they thought that the right answer was II in a test I gave them - I would rather they asked for clarification, showing at least that they understand the question is wrong. Also, personally, I would just not put a wrong question in the test intentionally.

 

again:   High schools endeavor to teach kids how to get a job, not how to do that job.    They are not being taught how to make a back up, how to do math, nor how many ways there are to do anything, they are being taught to work within the confines of the information they have been given, nothing else.   Everything else requires assumptions.  They are effectively being taught not to make assumptions.

 

 

 

 

5 minutes ago, Sauron said:

I consider it an educated guess, after all there's plenty of history of companies offering to "help" schools with their computer related courses and just using that platform to shove ads down students' throats. This is further hinted at by the OP saying they have Acer hardware at school.

Unfortunately it's more likely to have been the opposite - the school paid Acer to have them write this test and Acer threw in as many brand shoutouts as possible.

 

 

Pretty sad world you live in where you think companies trying to squeeze ads into high school tests is more probably than a typo. 

 

 

 

[Sauron]

10 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Feel away, it's common practice and has been for decades.   Apart from what I have already said, the other problem with broad or greater detail in questions is that the more information you put in the more chance there is of being a second correct answer (and this is not that. As there is no way to argue that with the given information a backup can be made on the second computer) which results in some curriculum as grades having to be adjusted up or down skewing results.

As we discussed, there are ways to argue that a backup can be made on the second computer or that it can't be made on either depending on what you define as backup. You complained when people mentioned pendrives or cloud services because they weren't specifically mentioned but you ignored the counterpoint that we aren't explicitly told we have recordable DVDs either. A DVD writer without DVDs is just a cupholder. I have seen professors adjust grades for questions that were nowhere near as open to interpretation as this one upon receiving legitimate criticism.

 

You're applying arbitrary standards of what qualifies as vague based on your preexisting conclusion that the question must be reasonable just by virtue of it being on the test and because similar questions have existed for a long time, which isn't an argument.

18 minutes ago, mr moose said:

What?  do you honestly think the point of the question is to prepare you for a real worlds scenario? 

You made the "real world" example where this would be used to evaluate a new hire. If that's not the point then you must agree that this is just a stupid question for stupid questions' sake.

19 minutes ago, mr moose said:

This test is to determine if the student has listened in class and is answering the question he was asked, not the question he thinks he should be asked.

Which, in my opinion, is the perfect incapsulation of everything that is wrong with many education systems. The school should be concerned with you learning something, not with you parroting what the teacher said with no thought of your own.

22 minutes ago, mr moose said:

They are not being taught how to make a back up, how to do math, nor how many ways there are to do anything, they are being taught to work within the confines of the information they have been given, nothing else.

Some teaching. Might as well pick just one subject and only ever ask trick questions then, what's all this differentiation for if it doesn't matter what you actually learn about the different fields?

23 minutes ago, mr moose said:

Pretty sad world you live in where you think companies trying to squeeze ads into high school tests is more probably than a typo. 

Nowhere near as sad as the world you think you live in where school only exists to ensure you are an obedient slave to your future employer. I don't want to be hired if it means playing dumb and, thankfully, so far it hasn't. Also again, there is evidence of companies doing this - and spelling out the entire model of the computer is hardly a typo. It's far more likely to be intentional product placement. Why do you think companies like Adobe and Microsoft offer discounts and "guidance" to schools that teach students how to specifically use their products?

 

https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/press_release/captive-kids-a-report-on-commercial-pressures-on-kids-at-schools-part-one/

https://nepc.colorado.edu/sites/default/files/EPRU-0108-60-OWI.pdf

 

(in the second one the "spicy" part starts on page 7)

[mr moose]

21 minutes ago, Sauron said:

As we discussed, there are ways to argue that a backup can be made on the second computer or that it can't be made on either depending on what you define as backup. You complained when people mentioned pendrives or cloud services because they weren't specifically mentioned but you ignored the counterpoint that we aren't explicitly told we have recordable DVDs either. A DVD writer without DVDs is just a cupholder.

There are ways to argue lots of things,  but the question doesn't give you the opportunity to do so by design.    Why are you debating the definition of backup?  it will be in the course material.   And if for any reason a word has not been specifically defined either in class or in the question then the most reasonable contextual definition is used.

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I have seen professors adjust grades for questions that were nowhere near as open to interpretation as this one upon receiving legitimate criticism.

Which is why they endeavor to keep it like that,  I've already said that several times now.    I have also said several times this is a high school test, not a university exam.  There is a shit ton of difference.  Universities and workplaces concentrate on how to do things, High schools concentrate on general priming on how to get to university or the workplace.  Please don't confuse those two. 

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You're applying arbitrary standards of what qualifies as vague based on your preexisting conclusion that the question must be reasonable just by virtue of it being on the test and because similar questions have existed for a long time, which isn't an argument.

huh?   there is absolutely nothing arbitrary in what I have said.    All that's happened is you have failed to grasp a basic principal in testing and think it must be a problem with the school or teacher.    Again, this type of question and it's structure is VERY common and VERY intentional.  I am surprised you haven't encountered it before.

 

 

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You made the "real world" example where this would be used to evaluate a new hire. If that's not the point then you must agree that this is just a stupid question for stupid questions' sake.

I gave you a real world example of why people structure the question that way,  there is no other way to gauge how well the question is answered without making assumptions.     These questions crop up in aptitude testing, pre interview testing all the time.   I know this because I've done it myself as a professional in HR.

 

 

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Which, in my opinion, is the perfect incapsulation of everything that is wrong with many education systems. The school should be concerned with you learning something, not with you parroting what the teacher said with no thought of your own.

Some teaching. Might as well pick just one subject and only ever ask trick questions then, what's all this differentiation for if it doesn't matter what you actually learn about the different fields?

Again, you have made so many assumptions as to the point of the question that you can't even see the problem.   There is nothing dumb or sinister here, it's not a grand controversy of educational failure.  It's a simple question to determine if the student can identify the correct answer without making assumptions.  you have clearly failed, you know academical they want you to Answer A but some part of you feels the need to read into it so much further to make it wrong,  why? The only way this question is wrong is if you make assumptions about it's intent.  

 

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Nowhere near as sad as the world you think you live in where school only exists to ensure you are an obedient slave to your future employer. I don't want to be hired if it means playing dumb and, thankfully, so far it hasn't. Also again, there is evidence of companies doing this - and spelling out the entire model of the computer is hardly a typo. It's far more likely to be intentional product placement. Why do you think companies like Adobe and Microsoft offer discounts and "guidance" to schools that teach students how to specifically use their products?

 

https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/press_release/captive-kids-a-report-on-commercial-pressures-on-kids-at-schools-part-one/

https://nepc.colorado.edu/sites/default/files/EPRU-0108-60-OWI.pdf

 

(in the second one the "spicy" part starts on page 7)

 

Don't go confusing the shit American system of getting mass contracts into many schools and supplying ipads cheap to get the kids hooked in an eco system with a fucking typo.  Given your desire for this to be some grand injustice rather than the more obvious and common testing criteria, it is likely that the irony of all the assumptions you have made to prove the whole thing is wrong (being the exact thing the test and education is designed to prevent) is also lost on you.