should youtubers do a "linux test" on products they review?

[WereCatf]

Just now, Twilight said:

well, there is this: https://anbox.io/

but that's just a tightly integrated VM basically. 

That's my point: you can't just take and run an Android-app on Linux, you need a translation-layer in-between.

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

Just now, WereCatf said:

That's my point: you can't just take and run an Android-app on Linux, you need a translation-layer in-between.

i know. 

[Zando_]

1 minute ago, papajo said:

First of all you are biased, 2D and 3D editing features work the someway across all such editors what changes is the dedicated keyboard shortcuts they use or the articulation in their menus the essence is the same though. 

 

Yes in a professional environment (which is not something that concerned the average user btw ) photoshop is the tool of choice but that's simply due to the fact that photoshop (or any other adobe product) is a paid service which comes with customer care/support and which is a must if you earn your living using a tool GIMP on the other hand if FREE OF CHARGE and therefore does not nearly provide the same level of support, having that said the documentation and community for GIMP is huge and an average user can harness all its power, the learning curve is the same.

 

Plus as mentioned before you can run those applications in linux as well for average user purposes relatively easy (https://www.modmy.com/its-now-easier-install-adobe-creative-cloud-apps-linux this how to is posted on 2017 so the version numbers extent to current ones now) the support is limited if you are a studio and would like to have the best support adobe can provide but again that's not an average user issue. 

So you're saying it's worse for a professional and the same for an average user? What reason is there to use Linux? 

Also lol nah, I like Linux, just sadly can't use it anymore (when I first got into computers I was on a Vista era laptop running Ubuntu 12.04, mostly used Ubuntu based distros to muck about with for at least a year or two). Nothing I do now runs on it. The apps I need at work do not, the games and benches I run on my hobby PCs at home do not. I do have an i5 2400 + WX2100 system going together sometime soon-ish though, am planning to muck around with Linux again on that. 

My bias comes from people ree-ing at big channels not supporting Linux when there's very little reason for the vast majority of people to even consider it. 

 

5 minutes ago, papajo said:

Your question was trivial obviously calc (excel version of libre office has macros, formatting options and formulas that's a basic feature set for a spreadsheet program) thus I expanded the argument in general featureset comparison between the two office suits. 

No not trivial. I'm used to Excel, I know where the buttons are, I'm used to my tab layout, I have my formatting macro in a specific spot, I have my keyboard shortcuts and I'm familiar with the template system and settings, I depend on how Excel tables work and the formatting options they give me to present reports that are as user-friendly as possible, because the guys I put them together for are always busy and need the data as readable as possible. Why would I switch to a different suite unless it has something that's so much better that it justifies re-learning all that and changing up how I do things for the 40+ nearly identical reports I pull monthly? I have a setup in place to get them done quickly and efficiently, why would I change that entire workflow to use something else unless again, it has some massive advantage? 

What reason is there for an average user to switch to Linux? Most people don't care about the privacy or control/tweakability options, and the wild amount of distros is confusing and depending on what you pick can make getting troubleshooting done very hard. Why would the majority switch? People have been pitching Linux on mostly the same point for years and it's still much, much smaller than the Windows and macOS userbase. Your average user just... doesn't care, and you haven't presented any reasons why they would? Linux mostly holds advantages for people doing very specific things, not the wider computer userbase. 

[WereCatf]

1 hour ago, Twilight said:

i have like 3 laptops lying around here that have some kind of dirver thing. one doesn't work properly with nvidia, one has wifi card issues and the last one (a macbook) doesn't do the fan control properly. 

Yeah, Linux ain't some magic-sauce where everything works. I have a couple of WiFi-devices myself that don't work correctly under Linux, my Steelseries headset's extra-features aren't available under Linux and I could e.g. point to my laptop's NVIDIA Optimus as something that is a complete fucking crapshoot under Linux. Can't use my PSVR under Linux, either.

[papajo]

1 minute ago, WereCatf said:

you need a translation-layer in-between

yea but that's more due to the fact that those apps are coded for an ARM based system while you run a x86 based system on your computer be it a laptop or a desktop. (more simply the CPU architectures are different and if your OS is coded to run on a different architecture than the app you trying to run you need some sort of emulation or virtualization) 

 

If you run linux on ARM (elg manjaro ARM version) most apps dont need a translation layer. 

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

2 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

Yeah, Linux ain't some magic-sauce where everything works. I have a couple of WiFi-devices myself that don't work correctly under Linux, my Steelseries headset's extra-features aren't available under Linux and I could e.g. point to my laptop's NVIDIA Optimus as something that is a complete fucking crapshoot under Linux. Can't use my PSVR under Linux, either.

yeah i've dealt with the hell of optimus and even wrote a guide for nvidia-prime here. it's still not perfect even if you do that though... 

 

3 minutes ago, Zando Bob said:

Nothing I do now runs on it.

have you considered using a VM for excel? i used to do that for Word when i was at school. the advantages of linux still apply (control over updates, privacy etc) and Windows is contained in it's own little spot. Snapshots are another advantage of doing that, if Windows Update fucks up the VM you can just revert it. i know it's not a perfect solution but it is one that i have used many times. 

[WereCatf]

3 minutes ago, papajo said:

yea but that's more due to the fact that those apps are coded for an ARM based system while you run a x86 based system on your computer be it a laptop or a desktop.

No, there is an x86-version of Android as well and if you take an app from there, you still need a translation-layer.

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

3 minutes ago, papajo said:

yea but that's more due to the fact that those apps are coded for an ARM based system while you run a x86 based system on your computer be it a laptop or a desktop. (more simply the CPU architectures are different and if your OS is coded to run on a different architecture than the app you trying to run you need some sort of emulation or virtualization) 

Bullcrap. have you used Android X86 before? loads of apps are coded for X86 and can be run on a normal laptop without a compatibility layer if that machine is running android itself. 

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

Just now, WereCatf said:

No, there is an x86-version of Android as well and if you take an app from there, you still need a translation-layer.

exactly

[Zando_]

1 minute ago, Twilight said:

have you considered using a VM for excel? i used to do that for Word when i was at school. the advantages of linux still apply (control over updates, privacy etc) and Windows is contained in it's own little spot. Snapshots are another advantage of doing that, if Windows Update fucks up the VM you can just revert it. i know it's not a perfect solution but it is one that i have used many times. 

I run Excel on a Mac, Windows is too clunky for how I move stuff around. VM adds extra complications too, that I don't need for work. I have a W10 VM I'll spin up if I need to run some small utility, but working in it would be bleh at absolute best. 

A Mac gives me all the privacy and control over updates that I need, with much better software compatibility for the stuff I need to run. Again there... just isn't anything Linux does that justifies bothering with it. I think there's one guy in this entire company (well multiple companies actually) that uses Linux, and that's because he's an open source guy or something. Still has to use Windows for a lot of software so he dual boots, that's too much bother for me lol. 

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

Just now, Zando Bob said:

I run Excel on a Mac, Windows is too clunky for how I move stuff around. VM adds extra complications too, that I don't need for work. I have a W10 VM I'll spin up if I need to run some small utility, but working in it would be bleh at absolute best. 

A Mac gives me all the privacy and control over updates that I need, with much better software compatibility for the stuff I need to run. Again there... just isn't anything Linux does that justifies bothering with it. I think there's one guy in this entire company (well multiple companies actually) that uses Linux, and that's because he's an open source guy or something. Still has to use Windows for a lot of software so he dual boots, that's too much bother for me lol. 

ah, i forgot you use a Mac at work. Mac's are awesome, just pricey... 

[papajo]

19 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

my Steelseries headset's extra-features aren't available under Linux

I happen to have this steelseries headset https://steelseries.com/gaming-headsets/arctis-pro-gamedac and under ubuntu 18.10 it works fine which one do you have? 

 

19 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

I have a couple of WiFi-devices myself that don't work correctly under Linux

Again unless they are very old or very new I doubt its an issue that can not be troubleshooted. 

 

19 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

point to my laptop's NVIDIA Optimus as something that is a complete fucking crapshoot under Linux

That's more like Nvidias issue rather than linux since nvidia keeps its drivers closed which means that the only one who can work on those issues is nvidia itself , AMD on the other hand has great driver support for linux. 

 

But anyway here is a link that might help resolve your issue : reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/6ftq10/the_ultimate_guide_to_setting_up_nvidia_optimus/

 

19 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

Can't use my PSVR under Linux, either.

Again this hardware is relatively new and its user base limited thus out of the box support obviously is not expected (since we are talking about opensource communities that dont get paid for doing something but rather donate their time and effort towards things that will impact most users which means that there are priorities and a PSVR headset is not in the first rank of those priorities) having said that googling "PSVR on linux" I find that people have managed to make them work .

 

 

 

[Zando_]

2 minutes ago, Twilight said:

ah, i forgot you use a Mac at work. Mac's are awesome, just pricey... 

Work provides mine lol, as do many places (that's why I have newer model vs an older used one). Tis why the linux running better on lower end/cheaper hardware argument doesn't really hold up either, a lot of places have no issue providing laptops for their employees, and as far as business expenses go it's not really a bother. People use them long enough that it outweighs the cost. That and Apple has very good customer support and the OS is dependable, both pluses for a lot of workplaces. 

Funnily enough on laptops with OEM support, IIRC Dell still sells XPS variants shipping with Ubuntu out of the box. 

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

1 minute ago, papajo said:

I happen to have this steelseries headset https://steelseries.com/gaming-headsets/arctis-pro-gamedac and under ubuntu 18.10 it works fine which one do you have? 

you are still running 18.10? OOOOF

 

1 minute ago, papajo said:

That's more like Nvidias issue rather than linux since nvidia keeps its drivers closed which means that the only one who can work on those issues is nvidia itself , AMD on the other hand has great driver support for linux. 

 

But anyway here is a link that might help resolve your issue : reddit.com/r/linux_gaming/comments/6ftq10/the_ultimate_guide_to_setting_up_nvidia_optimus/

i made a guide on prime. i followed multiple guides and none for optimus worked on the laptop i tried it on. 

 

1 minute ago, Zando Bob said:

Work provides mine lol, as do many places (that's why I have newer model vs an older used one). Tis why the linux running better on lower end/cheaper hardware argument doesn't really hold up either, a lot of places have no issue providing laptops for their employees, and as far as business expenses go it's not really a bother. People use them long enough that it outweighs the cost. That and Apple has very good customer support and the OS is dependable, both pluses for a lot of workplaces. 

Funnily enough on laptops with OEM support, IIRC Dell still sells XPS variants shipping with Ubuntu out of the box. 

yeah dell makes laptops with Ubuntu.. 

 

funny thing though, i still use my 2012 MBP as a secondary laptop for some things.... i kinda wanna buy a newer model than it but i just don't have money and i'm not lucky enough to have an employer willing to provide one. Linux gives me a bunch fo the benefits from macOS without having to pay so much for the priviledge, but i still need MS Office for some things and i just do that on my Mac because i can't be bothered to mess around with WIndows... 

[papajo]

3 minutes ago, Twilight said:

you are still running 18.10? OOOOF

I am more of a manjaro kind of guy but the system which the aforementioned headset plugs into runs ubuntu 18.10  

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

Just now, papajo said:

I am more of a manjaro kind of guy but the system which the aforementioned headset plugs into runs ubuntu 18.10  

i'm sure you know this but in case you didn't 18.10 is no longer supported and is not getting security patches. i urge you to update it. 

[WereCatf]

10 minutes ago, papajo said:

- SNIP -

I know you don't notice it, but there's a trend with all of your answers: Linux works great! That is, IF you jump through all these hoops or IF you use specific hardware and IF you only do very basic things and IF you are willing to switch over to different apps than what you're used to and therefore learn how to get your shit done with the new apps and so on and so forth.

 

It's not as magical as you make it out to be and all the issues just aren't worth the effort for many people.

[papajo]

 

11 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

I know you don't notice it, but there's a trend with all of your answers: Linux works great! That is, IF you jump through all these hoops or IF you use specific hardware and IF you only do very basic things and IF you are willing to switch over to different apps than what you're used to and therefore learn how to get your shit done with the new apps and so on and so forth.

 

Same IFs exist for windows. I am seeing the big picture.. building PCs since 1995 and generally keep myself in the loop and I can say that linux works fine. 

 

Obviously anybody can say that this particular headset has issues or this particular version of this particular program has issues... 

 

 

Besides that more or less at least half of those complains could be due to user error.

 

And it doesnt matter because same arguments can be made for windows as well... LOTS of hardware/driver issues for popular devices are listed on sites  from here to toms hardware to wherever you look you gonna find bugs/driver issues and whatnot for windows . 

 

The difference being that windows is a CLOSED OS and that you PAID for it (and its driver support because either you paid MS for it or the 3rd party you purchased your device) but on linux you didnt pay anybody and every tool to solve your problem is at your finger tips where in windows you have to beg the company for support. 

 

The general picture to me is that everything works fine (as fine than any OS could work) individual scenarios always exist but that doesnt mean they are the canon. 

 

In reality  linux distros such as ubuntu debian or manjaro are very user friendly and provide everything an average user could ask either out of the  box or a few clicks away. 

 

The only real issue is the gaming support but this gab gets smaller everyday 

[WereCatf]

4 minutes ago, papajo said:

Same IFs exist for windows.

They would exist IF someone was trying to push people into switching to Windows from Linux. They aren't, so those things don't apply: they don't have to re-learn their apps, their hardware already works or they wouldn't be using said hardware, and so on.

[papajo]

7 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

They would exist IF someone was trying to push people into switching to Windows from Linux. They aren't, so those things don't apply: they don't have to re-learn their apps, their hardware already works or they wouldn't be using said hardware, and so on.

Who tryies to push for linux? I express my opinion, I am hearing arguments towards the opposite which I find invalid and I argue why I find them invalid. 

 

You dont have to relearn as in learn something from the ground up... as I said the average user can use popular distros without an issue.. the learning curve from windows to linux is not different than from windows to mac for example. 

 

And I didnt even brought up reasons as why to change your OS. Because there are many strong arguments to swap from windows to linux and I didnt mention a single one up until now.

 

The only thing I have done here is dismissing complains towards not using linux which I find either to be extreme or biased. 

[Giganthrax]

Linux is waaaaaaaay too niche to be regularly included in everyday LTT testing. 

 

As for the whole Linux functionality discussion, I bet Linux is phenomenal if you're a highly advanced user who's using it to do something that neither Windows nor macOS can do well, such as set up servers, networks, CCTV systems, revive old hardware, etc. 

 

But as an everyday user who uses a computer for entertainment, web browsing, and non-programming work (Office, video editing, photo editing, 3D design, etc.)? You'd have to be a masochist to choose Linux. It's just a whole lot of extra learning, troubleshooting, and generally struggling with an inferior OS that doesn't do anything Windows/macOS can't do the same or better. Add to that the fact that Win10 Pro costs $3 on ebay, and it's just a nobrainer. 

 

I used Mint Xfce for about 6 months on my laptop, and it took ages to get everything working and find usable alternatives to everyday programs. After that, it worked okay until an update just killed it and I had to switch to an older version. To add insult to injury, it barely made my old laptop any faster than it was with Windows. 

[papajo]

41 minutes ago, Giganthrax said:

Linux is waaaaaaaay too niche to be regularly included in everyday LTT testing. 

 

Is it?
 

1,2M views. 

 

 

2.1M views
 

 

 

1.9M views
 

 

1.6M views 

 

 

2M views

 

1.1M views 

 

 

 

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

48 minutes ago, Giganthrax said:

But as an everyday user who uses a computer for entertainment, web browsing, and non-programming work (Office, video editing, photo editing, 3D design, etc.)? You'd have to be a masochist to choose Linux. It's just a whole lot of extra learning, troubleshooting, and generally struggling with an inferior OS that doesn't do anything Windows/macOS can't do the same or better.

i love linux and yet i have to agree. almost the whole time i've used it i've had a Mac on hand as a second computer, in fact i still do. i'm debating just dualbooting my macbook and sticking with that as a daily machine. 

 

i enjoy the learning and troubleshooting, but for serious things like school 90% of the time i just grabbed my Mac if i needed to do something... 

Edited March 3, 2020 by Twilight
typo

[papajo]

45 minutes ago, Giganthrax said:

But as an everyday user who uses a computer for entertainment, web browsing, and non-programming work (Office, video editing, photo editing, 3D design, etc.)? You'd have to be a masochist to choose Linux. It's just a whole lot of extra learning, troubleshooting, and generally struggling with an inferior OS that doesn't do anything Windows/macOS can't do the same or better. Add to that the fact that Win10 Pro costs $3 on ebay, and it's just a nobrainer. 

1)The inferior OS in this case is windows not linux windows is just the popular OS due to historical reasons, linux is not a substitute for windows its a different -and I as well as other people may argue- better OS. (https://www.lifewire.com/windows-vs-linux-mint-2200609 , https://www.infoworld.com/article/3026209/why-linux-is-still-better-than-windows-10.html  ) 

2) those $3 keys of windows are illegal and microsoft disables them from time to time. 

3)When was the last time you tried linux? because using a computer for entertainment especially for webrowsing can be faster and safer on linux and the general experience is the same because they are many user friendly distros out there 

[Giganthrax]

52 minutes ago, papajo said:

Is it?

I said regularly, as in, in every video or every other video. Linus also did videos on all kinds of weird products like JIBO, doesn't mean these products are regular on the channel.

51 minutes ago, Twilight said:

ii enjoy the learning and troubleshooting, but for serious things like school 90% of the time i just grabbed my Mac if i needed to do something... 

Same. I tried Linux because I like to tinker with tech, and I'm by no means sorry for doing so and may do it again in the future. In fact, I'm thinking of making a do-it-yourself CCTV camera system in my home and I'll likely use Linux for that. But for work and daily gaming? Nah. 

50 minutes ago, papajo said:

1)The inferior OS in this case is windows not linux windows is just the popular OS due to historical reasons, linux is not a substitute for windows its a different -and I as well as other people may argue- better OS. (https://www.lifewire.com/windows-vs-linux-mint-2200609 , https://www.infoworld.com/article/3026209/why-linux-is-still-better-than-windows-10.html  ) 

2) those $3 keys of windows are illegal and microsoft disables them from time to time. 

3)When was the last time you tried linux? because using a computer for entertainment especially for webrowsing can be faster and safer on linux and the general experience is the same because they are many user friendly distros out there 

1) Can't play most worthwhile games or can only play them after jumping through various hoops, can't run industry standard programs or have to jump through hoops to do it, a bunch of programs that I use every day (WordWeb, 4K Video Downloader, etc.) don't exist for Linux, have to use a crappy Microsoft App Store to get programs instead of being able to download the files wherever I want and run them how I want, can't find solutions to problems as easily because there just isn't as much information out there as there is for Windows, and so on and so forth. Inferior OS.

 

2) I've been using some of these keys for years. Even if I have to re-buy a $3 key someday, I think it's more than worth it considering I don't have to deal with the problems in 1)

 

3) A couple years ago. Safety isn't a concern for me as (like most LTT viewers, I would imagine) I'm tech savvy-enough to know how to avoid viruses, and when I do get some Malwarebytes and Windows Defender catch them just fine (plus there's always Process Explorer if push comes to shove). I had no problems using Mint Xfce, so user friendliness isn't a concern there. What is a concern is everything under 1)