should youtubers do a "linux test" on products they review?

[Kisai]

39 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

 

When was the last time you even tried Linux? None of that has been my experience with Mint Cinnamon 19.x. Most of what you are referring to is simply an unfamiliarity with how Linux works.

"Use this alternate program" is not a solution when your office requires you to use a program that is only available on Windows (or OS X)

 

For example, at a minimum, the following software MUST WORK on the PC, and not be replaced with another product:

Everyone:

Adobe Acrobat DC Pro

 

Microsoft Outlook

Microsoft Excel

Microsoft Word

Microsoft Project

 

Engineers also add:

Autodesk 3D Studio

Autodesk AutoCAD

Autodesk Civil3D

 

AutoTurn

Sketchup

V-Ray

Lumion

 

Adobe Photoshop

Adobe Premiere Pro

 

This is why, Linux as a Desktop OS doesn't work. Most the engineering software will not work on Mac running OSX, only a Mac running Bootcamp. So never mind trying Wine on Linux, they need access to the GPU using DX12/DX11/OpenCL/Cuda API's, and when you're designing a billion dollar project, they do not care about your desire to run Linux, they will fire you and get someone else who will use the software they want you to use.

 

Gamers have routinely found themselves banned from online games for running on Linux, even if the game appears to work fine under Wine or a virtualized Windows instance. That is a chicken-and-egg problem for gaming on Linux, but again, most of the time Linux Gaming is just simply not a thing, and people who claim to use Linux as their gaming desktop are either lying or are playing native windows games on Wine-variations rather than playing Linux-native games.

 

 

[RonnieOP]

34 minutes ago, Kisai said:

"Use this alternate program" is not a solution when your office requires you to use a program that is only available on Windows (or OS X)

 

For example, at a minimum, the following software MUST WORK on the PC, and not be replaced with another product:

Everyone:

Adobe Acrobat DC Pro

 

Microsoft Outlook

Microsoft Excel

Microsoft Word

Microsoft Project

 

Engineers also add:

Autodesk 3D Studio

Autodesk AutoCAD

Autodesk Civil3D

 

AutoTurn

Sketchup

V-Ray

Lumion

 

Adobe Photoshop

Adobe Premiere Pro

 

This is why, Linux as a Desktop OS doesn't work. Most the engineering software will not work on Mac running OSX, only a Mac running Bootcamp. So never mind trying Wine on Linux, they need access to the GPU using DX12/DX11/OpenCL/Cuda API's, and when you're designing a billion dollar project, they do not care about your desire to run Linux, they will fire you and get someone else who will use the software they want you to use.

 

Gamers have routinely found themselves banned from online games for running on Linux, even if the game appears to work fine under Wine or a virtualized Windows instance. That is a chicken-and-egg problem for gaming on Linux, but again, most of the time Linux Gaming is just simply not a thing, and people who claim to use Linux as their gaming desktop are either lying or are playing native windows games on Wine-variations rather than playing Linux-native games.

 

 

I agree with basically all of this.

 

Also can you really call it linux gaming if your doing it through a windows emulator?

 

I mean you wouldnt install bluestacks to play codmobile and say your were playing a pc game.

 

Maybe im just spouting nonsense lol.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

27 minutes ago, Kisai said:

"Use this alternate program" is not a solution when your office requires you to use a program that is only available on Windows (or OS X)

 

For example, at a minimum, the following software MUST WORK on the PC, and not be replaced with another product:

Everyone:

Adobe Acrobat DC Pro

 

Microsoft Outlook

Microsoft Excel

Microsoft Word

Microsoft Project

 

Engineers also add:

Autodesk 3D Studio

Autodesk AutoCAD

Autodesk Civil3D

 

AutoTurn

Sketchup

V-Ray

Lumion

 

Adobe Photoshop

Adobe Premiere Pro

 

This is why, Linux as a Desktop OS doesn't work. Most the engineering software will not work on Mac running OSX, only a Mac running Bootcamp. So never mind trying Wine on Linux, they need access to the GPU using DX12/DX11/OpenCL/Cuda API's, and when you're designing a billion dollar project, they do not care about your desire to run Linux, they will fire you and get someone else who will use the software they want you to use...

 

Sigh! Apparently, you missed this in my post:

 

"The only time this isn't practical is when companies require their employees to all use the same programs and OS as everyone else (and there is good reason for that; it would be a compatibility and IT department nightmare otherwise)."

 

Had you read it, you could have saved yourself the effort of writing your unnecessary diatribe.

 

 

31 minutes ago, Kisai said:

...Gamers have routinely found themselves banned from online games for running on Linux, even if the game appears to work fine under Wine or a virtualized Windows instance. That is a chicken-and-egg problem for gaming on Linux, but again, most of the time Linux Gaming is just simply not a thing, and people who claim to use Linux as their gaming desktop are either lying or are playing native windows games on Wine-variations rather than playing Linux-native games.

I wasn't even discussing gaming in my post. What I did say is it is unreasonable to expect Windows programs (and that would include games) to work in Linux. While I didn't mention it before, I do not advocate the use of Wine or similar programs to force Windows programs to work in Linux.

 

There are many people who do use their Linux machines as gaming machines. Linux has come a long ways when it comes to gaming natively (again, I do not advocate the use of Wine, etc.).

[Kisai]

17 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Sigh! Apparently, you missed this in my post:

 

"The only time this isn't practical is when companies require their employees to all use the same programs and OS as everyone else (and there is good reason for that; it would be a compatibility and IT department nightmare otherwise)."

 

Had you read it, you could have saved yourself the effort of writing your unnecessary diatribe.

 

Then you could have saved yourself writing your post in the first place because you then went on to suggest software that people only use when they don't need SPECIFIC compatibility. I can remember trying to send Resume's back in the early 2000's that were in RTF format because people wanted Word Doc's and guess what, none of them would ask a second time for a word doc, you either send a word doc the first time, or you're too much of a pain in the ass to consider.

 

That applies to pretty much every use of non-standard software. Either YOU adapt and use the standard software, or YOU figure out how to get your documents into that format at YOUR COST. If your software then mangles some important document and they can't read it, it's YOUR FAULT for not using the right software, and YOU GET THE BLAME for any subsequent liability.

 

It's fine if you want to use Linux, but don't expect people to humor you. "Linux user" is synonymous with "pain in the ass", and it didn't get that way by casually using Linux, no, it got that way because Linux users don't follow instructions. Hence, using Linux ends up being as much of a political statement as wearing "crude" t-shirts to the office.

[SpaceGhostC2C]

It sounds like you should watch Level1Techs and their reviews.

[Gamer115x]

As a fairly consistent *nix user myself since around 2013, I feel obliged to put my two cents on the table.

 

For me, it wasn't about "trying something new," or, "I can finally become the level 100 wizard!" Or, whatever were the popular memes about computer nerds back in the early 2000's...It came down to price.

 

When I had gotten my first Laptop (A Gateway NE series), it was Windows 7. And I had been accustomed to windows since my childhood, using it as far back as 98. But then I finally had the gift of building my own PC and saw relative prices on Windows licenses. I wasn't going to pay $80+ dollars for a Windows copy, and I never knew of key sites for OEM copies, so I went with something I had heard of once or twice before: Linux.

 

To say the transition for a casual Windows user to just up and start using Ubuntu 14.10 would be like saying, "I put my lemon meringue pie in the oven too long, but it came out with pretty patterns in the burnt spots." I ended up reformatting it like four times in the course of a month because I had messed some configuration setting up (Once after because of a bug in old Unity Desktop Environment when I was messing around with a KVM switch I had 'fixed').

 

Granted, I was a pretty high-level user even when I started using Linux, so I wasn't afraid to get knee-deep into the binary. But as a first-time user, it was surprisingly easy to install.

 

I have been using Linux on just about every device since then because Linux has become my go-to OS, and since it basically runs on anything and everything, I kinda like it. I've dabbled in Fedora, Ubuntu, Debian, Manjaro, OpenSUSE and Feren OS, and Manjaro has become my primary Linux Distribution since I like full control over my computer.

 

Back in 2014, I had just learned how to operate the Terminal environment effectively, and I look back on that day and chuckle. This won't be every user's experience. I know that. But instead I want to clarify a few things I noted while reading this forum thread.

 

Twilight, you seem to be running off-character. Your structural bias has left you open to scrutiny. For that, I must scrutinize you as well as those posing the arguments.

 

10 hours ago, Twilight said:

LTT caters to gamers, and redhat based distro's aren't ideal for that as debian (and ubuntu, etc) and Arch have more support for that kind of thing.

 

That's where you're sort-of right. Sort-of. LTT (Linus Media Group) has a central focus for gamers because that is the market majority for people purchasing high-end equipment like graphics cards and CPUs that are either borderline enterprise equipment or designed for multi-user workloads.

 

Linus has, and likely always will be, focused on the technology as a standpoint for every user. Every enthusiast. He and his employees often try to do or find crazy neat technology that often meets different criteria per video/topic. Notice only recently they've been focusing on more Server-based videos? Partially, it's because now they can afford to make these awesome servers, but it's also because that's the popular topic they want to cover.

 

Notice how they use Linux for a number of these applications. Notice how they only started talking about Linux months after they first talked about the server configurations. Linux wasn't profitable as a topic at the time, so it was put on the backburner for the time being.

 

Then Anthony came in the picture and everything changed.

 

Also, every Distro has a same-but-different approach to high-demand applications, such as those from Steam (Proton), Blender, and GIMP/Kirita, for examples. Some have more efficient system packages, others, not so much. Fedora, in my experience, was the smoothest experience regarding desktop graphics as opposed to Debian and Debian-based distributions; but this is a single-user case, and there are too many variables to properly diagnose.

 

10 hours ago, Twilight said:

10 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

And that kinda helps prove my point. They have done some videos and those videos have millions of views. And those people are not wanting to go to linux even after seeing it.

seeing it demonstrated sure, but they didn't really go in depth with how easy this all is. they made the same error most experienced linux users make when speaking to noobs. they were too in depth. 

 

This is one of the few times I might actually agree with you Twilight, but the truth is that Linux is an in-depth platform. There are a few thousand ways to oversimplify certain mechanics, but youtube channels like Switched to Linux, for example, often outline these methods already.

 

As a friend of mine once told me, "It's too easy to talk about something you enjoy with a passion. It's hard to talk about it in a way everyone will understand it." To oversimplify would insinuate either lack of information, or misinformation. This is why most Linux professionals, or even Windows and MacOS professionals will talk gibberish sometimes when to them it's a fairly standard knowledge. They say teaching is an art. I agree.

 

9 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

People keep bringing up privacy as if linux is going to help. Sure you dont have to worry about linux. Just every website and software you use. Everyones got a cell phone. And alot of people have smart speakers. If you concern is privacy then you need to take alot more steps then using linux to matter.

 

Windows isnt hard to use either. Its really really easy. Pretty straight forward. And since everyones already used to it. Theres no learning curve. 

 

 

Check-and-mark. Exceptions occur, but Privacy is a touch easier in Linux than Windows since the Telemetry is often agressive on Windows 10. You can have a million reasons why or how some things can be disabled or removed, but the truth is that to an average user, they're downright impossible and unfeasible to modify. This is how scammers are able to make bank on unaware consumers, because many of the tools that are often considered Administrative are overlooked by the common user, yet that same section would have every toggle-switch to your OS in a perfect world.

 

Exception: Windows is not easy, nor is it hard. Windows Visa/7, running Aero, was easy as all heck to use. XP and beyond were intuitive if cluttered. They screwed up in Windows 8 with Metro, which confused many consumers. They blended Aero with Metro in Windows 10 and I feel obligated to say they did a pretty "meh" job making it user-friendly. Granted, veteran Windows users can adapt (Hi Grandma!) but to those forced to make a radical change (i.e. XP to Windows 10, in an extreme case) will be taken aback, especially with the settings panel.

 

Modernism does not mean radical change to fit whatever HTML-based stylizing is popular on the net. Linux, on the other hand, isn't too much better with the multible Desktop Environments, but there's a level of adapability, customization and choice that the end-user has to make it better to move around.

 

9 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

Why learn a new os when your current works fine and you dont need to learn anything 

 

Specific-use cases, like mine. When you're running on a low income but can't shill out for a Windows license, Linux becomes a very intriguing offer. Many older computers can also be given new life with lightweight Linux distros, reducing E-Waste. Aspiring developers might find more use in some of the advantages Linux has over Windows regarding certain tasks. The list is situational but pertinent.

 

9 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

You do have controls over updates. You can turn them off very easily.

 

Admins can do this. Sysadmins are familiar with this. The general user will parse through how-to guides and either screw something up in the registry or balk at the complexity of it and sigh in defeat. You aren't even guaranteed that it was up-to-date information and that the computer won't just update itself anyhow.

 

8 hours ago, Twilight said:

10 hours ago, RonnieOP said:

Dual booting has always been easy. Its not that people cant figure out how to dual boot. Its just not worth it to most.

it wasn't as easy as it is now. regardless there is no downside. if you have spare storage space there is literally no downside. 

 

Yes and no. Yes, it is easier now, but it still is very difficult to someone just learning about the system and how their computer works. Easier should always be in italics when discussing storage or drive management. It's never easy, just complicated. Atop that, UEFI configurations with Windows 10 make it difficult to set up a second OS on the same computer. Stop right there ninja hands, 'cause there's nothing that will convince me otherwise.

 

9 hours ago, Kisai said:

"once you get used to it" is like saying "sure prison is easier than being a free person, you get free food, free health care, and a place to sleep" but it sure isn't a better experience. Linux, or a Prison limits you to what you can actually do, and that's a non-starter for all but some people who have no choice.

 

I dislike this analogy, yet I can't help but wince at the effectiveness. When I say something should be gotten used to it's through experience. The way you're inferring Twilight's statement tells me that the average user would see it as torturous and unequal ground, or that's how I read it. Sure, Linux is difficult for those who swap cold-turkey, but there aren't to many limitations beyond some familiar programs, which is why the earlier topic of Dual-booting, though complex, might be appealing to users with specific requirements.

 

Linux isn't meant for everyone, and I accept that. Just don't have to twist the knife, is all.

 

9 hours ago, Kisai said:

Arguably, MacOS X was always the "OS for dummies" ...

 

Arguable.

I've only had hands-on interaction with MacOS for a cumulative total of 4 hours, and everything felt a little foreign, even after switching to Linux and using many different Desktop Environments.

 

The idiom goes: "If you grow up with it, you learn it as gospel. If not, there's complication and brick-walls."

 

9 hours ago, Kisai said:

What would help Linux get any kind of adoption as a desktop OS would be for one of the big software companies to embrace it, yet funny enough the companies that do? Google, and IBM? They don't make desktop software. ...

 

This is one of the few points I can sadly resign a position of argument in. I've understood Google always had a focus on web development, and their office suite (all online!) helps solidify this foundation. Of course I'm not mentioning Youtube, Hangouts, the Search Engine, etc. because when I think of Google, those are the first things I think of.

 

The world is focused on the Cloud, with their heads in the clouds. There is no arguing that. The only exception to any such Webapp argument would be ChromeOS, a product of Google. Arguably, the Pixel series too, but they're Android-based, not Linux.

 

9 hours ago, Kisai said:

Linux is, simply a worse experience than Windows by any metric as a Desktop OS. Not only is stuff missing, hidden, or broken in Linux, but often obscure to the point of annoyance.

 

Meh, your opinion friend. While filesystems may be confusing, there are more than enough documentation sources online that can help you find what you need to find, in a short variety of ways to do it.

 

I know what's coming, "But you shouldn't need to go look online for tutorials and how-to guides to find your stuff!" I'm assuming you've deleted System32 at least once in your life if you believe such things are possible. Nobody can remember everything about their computer, and often I have a text file on hand in my Documents folder for obscure directories, files, and programs that are often useful, that I don't use much.

 

But, hey, your opinion. Nothing is obscure unless it has to be.

 

9 hours ago, Kisai said:

One does not trade the thing they know for the thing that costs more time to learn when the thing they know is still usable.

 

As a Linux user, once-Windows user, I concur with this statement. Unless you're still running XP, stick with what you have and don't fret about it. Or, if you are curious, load up a Virtual Machine and run a distro in Live mode. It doesn't hurt anything, and most hardware now can support an action like this (default settings often are fine).

 

7 hours ago, WereCatf said:

8 hours ago, Twilight said:

8 hours ago, Jarsky said:

*nix use only accounts for 2% of market share, even MacOS dwarfs Linux as far as users.

everyone uses linux, if they know it or not. it runs basically the entire internet. even if it's not your primary OS it's worthwhile to know it. 

That's like saying everyone uses Apache and Nginx and therefore it's worthwhile for everyone to learn them -- a complete garbage argument. When you're browing the Internet, do you know what web-servers each site is using in the background? No? Yeah, because you're not using the web-servers, you're using whatever is built on top of them.

 

You are disillusioned, the lot of you. I'm sorry, that was mean. Let me phrase this in an easy method:

 

Linux runs a server. The Server in turn runs a web service -- such as Apache -- that your PC, the one you are interacting with, connects to. Apache loads up the service details and the website HTML, and the HTML follows suit by grabbing any CSS code it needed to load with it. They are sent out of Port 80 to the recipient (Some servers have different forward ports), and then the recipient has that webpage on their browser. Explained? I hope so.

 

It doesn't matter about market share, the fact is that the number is slowly growing, and may have a spike...soon or never. Regardless, there are reasons to switch to Linux, and I won't discount anyone wanting to stick to what they prefer, but at the very least you should understand MacOS is just a variant from *nix. Mic drop.

 

And Twilight...Not everyone use Linux, nor do they interact with it; they use a service running on a Linux machine. While I do not disagree users should know more about their machine, they will likely be interfacing with Windows. That is just how Microsoft has played their marketing and distribution channels.

 

8 hours ago, Kilrah said:

But finding and learning that command is less user friendly than downloading a Windows program - and that's the whole problem.

 

It is getting easier. Flatpak and Snap, for example, are package managers that operate on containers; they don't need dependencies unless explicitly stated, since they come pre-packaged with whatever they need. On top of that, packages can easily be installed using the software center included with most distributions.

 

There are also AppImages, which are prepackaged binaries that often run by themselves (See Kirita and BalenaEtcher, to name a few I use). It's slow growth, but these methods are making it easier to package and distribute programs and applications.

 

Now the commands...In the Terminal...I recommend installing Oh-My-Zsh if you're going that route.

 

7 hours ago, lewdicrous said:

No one is obligated to cater to your needs, I don't care what you like/don't like, find the creators who share your interests and stop forcing those who don't to get on your lane.

 

We don't care about what you do not care about. It's only because I make this statement that a double-negative occurs in a derogatory statement. You can have your opinions. I/We can respect those opinions.

 

Nobody should cater to one's needs unless of such circumstances that require such actions. This thread was made with the best of intentions, but instead you assume it's a, "I want this to happen and you're gonna do it now!" post. Granted, Linux could have been conveyed better as a topic for a video, but I'm agreeing with the majority here; Not many YouTubers -- Popular or not -- will go as far as to test everything that is Linux on every piece of hardware they encounter. This is just basic knowledge: "if it doesn't turn a profit that my time is to be spent doing all this work, is it worth my time?"

 

That's where the people who have too much time on their hands post results on hardware forms, like this one on Debian, which contains instructions and some in-depth information on how to get Linux (in this case, Debian) running in the best way possible.

 

Any questions?

[Lady Fitzgerald]

55 minutes ago, Kisai said:

Then you could have saved yourself writing your post in the first place because you then went on to suggest software that people only use when they don't need SPECIFIC compatibility. I can remember trying to send Resume's back in the early 2000's that were in RTF format because people wanted Word Doc's and guess what, none of them would ask a second time for a word doc, you either send a word doc the first time, or you're too much of a pain in the ass to consider.

 

That applies to pretty much every use of non-standard software. Either YOU adapt and use the standard software, or YOU figure out how to get your documents into that format at YOUR COST. If your software then mangles some important document and they can't read it, it's YOUR FAULT for not using the right software, and YOU GET THE BLAME for any subsequent liability...

Most office applications save their data in certain file types. PDFs (Portable Document Files) are designed to be crossplatform. Depending on the type of PDF, most PDFs couldn't care less what program in whatever platform is used to read, create, or edit them.

 

Office suites save their data in certain file types. Often those filetypes are compatible with other office suites. For example, LibreOffice is pretty much compatible with all files created on MS Office and LibreOffice files usually can be read in MS Office. LibreOffice can also save data in MS Office file types.

 

And, again, as I already stated twice now, in a business setting, most companies require employees in the companiy to use the same OS and programs, again for reasons you have stated. Compatibility between companies is not an issue unless one doesn't use compatible file types (such as in the RTF example you gave).

 

Individuals have far more flexibility in what they can use and still be compatible cross platform. It does involve that someone know what they are doing but that can apply within a single application in the same OS.

 

55 minutes ago, Kisai said:

...It's fine if you want to use Linux, but don't expect people to humor you. "Linux user" is synonymous with "pain in the ass", and it didn't get that way by casually using Linux, no, it got that way because Linux users don't follow instructions. Hence, using Linux ends up being as much of a political statement as wearing "crude" t-shirts to the office.

Where on Earth did that come from? WOW! Just...WOW! None of that even makes sense nor is applicable here. I'm not asking anyone to "humor" me. I'm just correcting misconceptions about Linux.

[WereCatf]

19 minutes ago, Gamer115x said:

You are disillusioned, the lot of you. I'm sorry, that was mean. Let me phrase this in an easy method:

 

Linux runs a server. The Server in turn runs a web service -- such as Apache -- that your PC, the one you are interacting with, connects to. Apache loads up the service details and the website HTML, and the HTML follows suit by grabbing any CSS code it needed to load with it. They are sent out of Port 80 to the recipient (Some servers have different forward ports), and then the recipient has that webpage on their browser. Explained? I hope so.

 

It doesn't matter about market share, the fact is that the number is slowly growing, and may have a spike...soon or never. Regardless, there are reasons to switch to Linux, and I won't discount anyone wanting to stick to what they prefer, but at the very least you should understand MacOS is just a variant from *nix. Mic drop.

 

And Twilight...Not everyone use Linux, nor do they interact with it; they use a service running on a Linux machine. While I do not disagree users should know more about their machine, they will likely be interfacing with Windows. That is just how Microsoft has played their marketing and distribution channels.

I do not understand how any of that is relevant to what I said.

[Kisai]

57 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Most office applications save their data in certain file types. PDFs (Portable Document Files) are designed to be crossplatform. Depending on the type of PDF, most PDFs couldn't care less what program in whatever platform is used to read, create, or edit them.

 

You're still ignoring the basis of the problem. Collaboration. You can not collaborate, even on a PDF file if you're using different products that ignore/delete meta data willy-nilly. Our office has two PDF products, one for people making and working on PDF's, and one for people who just need to read them, the latter is akin to "use the web browser's own dang pdf reader, you don't need to buy Acrobat Pro DC."

 

If it's a small office you're dealing with, you can probably twist a few arms and get them to accept alternative file formats that you know their software will read but it will be a pain in the ass for them and they will dump you and look for someone more willing to put up with their business needs. A small company is less likely to be paying through the nose for software and may even want to use Linux, but their vendors will not, and that's the entire problem "pro-linux" people try to dismiss. "Everyone will adapt to me", is a very bad attitude to take, and I see this all the damn time with open source advocates.

 

Quote

 

Where on Earth did that come from? WOW! Just...WOW! None of that even makes sense nor is applicable here. I'm not asking anyone to "humor" me. I'm just correcting misconceptions about Linux.

There's nothing to correct. I end up chiming in on these threads because they predictably turn into "Linux is free, Linux is easy, It works for me, you're just too lazy to learn it." Which is a self-fullfilling prophecy in it's own. Linux users are their own worst advocates for the platform. Especially Google. If you want to see more broad adoption of Linux, don't go at critics with a "git gud" attitude. Linux is in the minority, and has outlasted several other attempts at replacing OSX (Remember BeOS?), let alone Windows (Remember OS/2?), but the common problem is that a lot of Linux advocates, including Linus Torvalds are toxic to the Linux Brand, and many actions they have taken, publicly, reflect poorly on Linux. Then there are people like Richard Stallman who actively undermine Linux as a Brand, and are actively harmful to any company adopting Linux.

 

It's actually kind of amusing how Google has gone to great lengths to erase the Linux Brand from Android, almost as if there was something wrong with calling it a flavor of Linux.

 

If I was a hardware manufacturer, and I needed something added to the Linux Kernel for my weird piece of hardware to work, and the patch is rejected with a pile of profanity, why would I even bother trying? Maybe my hardware can do without the Linux users. But this is still a theoretical thing, and I have a feeling this is one of the reasons why nVidia doesn't care about Linux support. 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

2 minutes ago, Kisai said:

You're still ignoring the basis of the problem. Collaboration. You can not collaborate, even on a PDF file if you're using different products that ignore/delete meta data willy-nilly. Our office has two PDF products, one for people making and working on PDF's, and one for people who just need to read them, the latter is akin to "use the web browser's own dang pdf reader, you don't need to buy Acrobat Pro DC."...

 

Actually, you can collaborate crossplatform; that was the entire reason PDF was created. PDF is a standard, not just a file type. It has certain requirements that have be met to fully use it. If you are using software that creates PDFs properly (not just free, simple, virtual printers, etc. which just make what are essentially screen shots), meta data does NOT get ignored/deleted. PDFs, in their most basic form, are simply images of data that was created on or compiled from other programs. No matter what PDF creation program is used, the user has to insert the necessary meta data (or have the program set to do it automatically) for it to be editable, have blanks that an be filled in by a reader, etc. PDFs are extremely versatile but one has to use the correct programs and know how to set up and/or use them. The same is true of any other office programs you may use.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Kisai said:

...If it's a small office you're dealing with, you can probably twist a few arms and get them to accept alternative file formats that you know their software will read but it will be a pain in the ass for them and they will dump you and look for someone more willing to put up with their business needs. A small company is less likely to be paying through the nose for software and may even want to use Linux, but their vendors will not, and that's the entire problem "pro-linux" people try to dismiss. "Everyone will adapt to me", is a very bad attitude to take, and I see this all the damn time with open source advocates...

 

Again, you are missing the point. Within a business, you don't have to "twist a few arms" to get employees to use different software, etc. That's part of their job description and, if they don't want to or can't do it, replace them with someone who will.

 

At no time did I ever suggest that anyone, individual or business, not using Linux has to adapt to those who do use Linux. That would be an unreasonable expectation. It's not a problem to create documents that are fully compatible cross platform or to otherwise interface with vendors on a different platform. I do it all the time. It simply isn't the problem you make it out to be.

 

 

23 minutes ago, Kisai said:

...There's nothing to correct. I end up chiming in on these threads because they predictably turn into "Linux is free, Linux is easy, It works for me, you're just too lazy to learn it." Which is a self-fullfilling prophecy in it's own. Linux users are their own worst advocates for the platform. Especially Google. If you want to see more broad adoption of Linux, don't go at critics with a "git gud" attitude. Linux is in the minority, and has outlasted several other attempts at replacing OSX (Remember BeOS?), let alone Windows (Remember OS/2?), but the common problem is that a lot of Linux advocates, including Linus Torvalds are toxic to the Linux Brand, and many actions they have taken, publicly, reflect poorly on Linux. Then there are people like Richard Stallman who actively undermine Linux as a Brand, and are actively harmful to any company adopting Linux...

 

Geez, lighten up, for crying out loud. You're "knee jerking" here. You are reacting to something that hasn't even happened yet just because you are expecting it to happen.

 

For what I've essentially have already said several times, I'm not trying to force Linux on anyone. It's not for everyone. I've already said that you can't just decide to use Linux when working for a company that requires that employees use a certain OS and programs. I've even defended that, saying it's for good reasons.

 

The point you are missing is that documents, etc. created by Linux and Linux programs CAN be compatible with other OSes and programs if you know what you are doing. One reason I started using PDFs several years ago was I was writing Chapbooks for publishing by a historical bookstore are a Renaissance Festival. I was using a new version of MS Word that had a feature I needed to use (Enhanced Metadata) but would result in gibberish for those using earlier versions of Word. Since all the bookstore needed was to be able to read and print the Chapbooks, I just used a free virtual printer to convert the Chapbooks to PDFs. Problem solved. It wasn't even difficult to do (once I figured it out). Was it the only solution? No, it just happened to be the easiest for the skill set and resources I and the book store had at the time.

 

I've already told you that LibreOffice can save documents in MS Office file formats as well as read MS Office file types without problems most of the time (when there are problems, it's almost always due to using different Styles, a problem that can also occur between different users of the same program and platform and is correctable). 

 

Even if the only reason someone doesn't use Linux is because they don't like it, it's a perfectly good reason and I don't have a problem with it. What I do have a problem with is people saying things about Linux that simply are not true at all or are only partially true.

[Kilrah]

1 hour ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Actually, you can collaborate crossplatform; that was the entire reason PDF was created.

Yeah, but they're talking of editable documents. You're not making a PDF to send a document to the next person to make their changes, or they're going to have a realyl hard time...

[Ashley MLP Fangirl]

3 hours ago, Gamer115x said:

Atop that, UEFI configurations with Windows 10 make it difficult to set up a second OS on the same computer. Stop right there ninja hands, 'cause there's nothing that will convince me otherwise.

it was a 1 click setup for me. my HP just has 2 boot options, Windows Boot Manager and Ubuntu, because there are 2 UEFI partitions to boot from on my SSD. just set it to Ubuntu and done, since you can still boot Windows from GRUB. 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

37 minutes ago, Kilrah said:

Yeah, but they're talking of editable documents. You're not making a PDF to send a document to the next person to make their changes, or they're going to have a realyl hard time...

PDFs can be made to be editable. I do it all the time. However, the only time you would want to do this is if you know the person you are sending it to has the programs and chops to do it, especially if you are going crossplatform. Fillable PDF forms are common when you want to limit the fields the recipient can fill in or edit.

[Sauron]

3 hours ago, Kisai said:

There's nothing to correct. I end up chiming in on these threads because they predictably turn into "Linux is free, Linux is easy, It works for me, you're just too lazy to learn it." Which is a self-fullfilling prophecy in it's own. Linux users are their own worst advocates for the platform.

I'm sorry, when did it become our responsibility as Linux users to "sell you" Linux? If you need help we might help you. If you say things that are verifiably false we will call you out for it. I'm not going to judge you for using something else, but I'm not a salesman - I'm not paid to evangelize Linux or convince people to use it. I don't demand that Windows or macOS users present their system of choice, nor do I hold their shortcoming as advocates against it - so maybe cut the bullshit. If you're hostile to the community they'll be hostile back - you're not owed anything from people working for free beyond common courtesy.

3 hours ago, Kisai said:

a lot of Linux advocates, including Linus Torvalds are toxic to the Linux Brand, and many actions they have taken, publicly, reflect poorly on Linux. Then there are people like Richard Stallman who actively undermine Linux as a Brand, and are actively harmful to any company adopting Linux.

Stallman and Torvalds can behave like absolute morons sometimes but Linux wouldn't exist if it weren't for them. It may surprise you but the community has actually pushed back against their nonsense when necessary - something that couldn't have happened in a private company like Microsoft. But hey, if that's a valid criticism of an operating system OH BOY do I have things to say about people like Ballmer or Jobs...

3 hours ago, Kisai said:

It's actually kind of amusing how Google has gone to great lengths to erase the Linux Brand from Android, almost as if there was something wrong with calling it a flavor of Linux.

While it does use Linux it doesn't really embrace any of the principles desktop Linux distributions do. In this case calling it "Linux" could legitimately be misleading for people, even though it's technically correct. The people who care know it. The people who don't care don't need to know it.

3 hours ago, Kisai said:

If I was a hardware manufacturer, and I needed something added to the Linux Kernel for my weird piece of hardware to work, and the patch is rejected with a pile of profanity, why would I even bother trying?

Today in things that didn't happen: ^

 

You obviously have no idea how kernel development works, so maybe don't comment about it. Also if you want to make a Linux driver you don't need to have it merged into the kernel - things get merged into the kernel when someone has interest in it being there, not whenever a manufacturer decides to support Linux.

 

Also you're saying this as though Microsoft let people make a pull request on Windows to include an exotic driver... please.

Quote

But this is still a theoretical thing, and I have a feeling this is one of the reasons why nVidia doesn't care about Linux support. 

Yeah, it's not like that came after decades of nVidia acting as though Linux didn't exist and being the worst collaborators possible in the effort to make their shit work. I like the double standards - decades of disrespect and negligence and then when Torvalds speaks up about it suddenly it's his fault.

 

So I guess the takeaway is - if you have some criticism on Linux, that's fine, it's welcome if you voice it politely and appropriately. However, if you come in saying "hey I think Linux is shit because it doesn't have a good office package" people are going to politely ask you to fuck off - that's not criticism, it's taking the piss. Think about it, how do you even address that? Do you write yet another free as in freedom office package? Do you nag Libreoffice developers with a vague request to "make it better"? If you have issues with Libreoffice, take it to the Libreoffice team, not the entirety of the Linux community, because we can't do anything about it and you come off as an entitled douche. @Lady Fitzgerald has just been correcting misconceptions and your reaction was to say the entire Linux community is bad at advocating for Linux... have a little self awareness.

[Sauron]

7 hours ago, straight_stewie said:

The one caveat to that answer is if the machine was designed or produced before roughly 1991, specifically, the pre-IBM-PC era, then things might get weird on you. But in my experience, people who collect vintage machines usually aren't interested in marring them up with modern OSs, they are collected specifically for their vintage rather than for their usefulness.

In my experience the worst "offenders" aren't old machines (people really like to run Linux on anything they can get it on) but rather highly integrated embedded systems like tablets where the proprietary firmware isn't standard or publicly available and is only designed to run Windows or Android.

[Jarsky]

4 hours ago, Gamer115x said:

 

You are disillusioned, the lot of you. I'm sorry, that was mean. Let me phrase this in an easy method:

 

Linux runs a server. The Server in turn runs a web service -- such as Apache -- that your PC, the one you are interacting with, connects to. Apache loads up the service details and the website HTML, and the HTML follows suit by grabbing any CSS code it needed to load with it. They are sent out of Port 80 to the recipient (Some servers have different forward ports), and then the recipient has that webpage on their browser. Explained? I hope so.

 

It doesn't matter about market share, the fact is that the number is slowly growing, and may have a spike...soon or never. Regardless, there are reasons to switch to Linux, and I won't discount anyone wanting to stick to what they prefer, but at the very least you should understand MacOS is just a variant from *nix. Mic drop.

 

 

I'm sorry, but I dont see why you think you're educating me in anything? I'm a hyperconverged infrastructure engineer. I deal with *nix, Windows, networking, etc..on a daily basis. I also suppport Linux for 2 small businesses that develop web apps by building and maintaining Apache/Nginx based server farms for them.  

 

My comment about marketshare is in relation to Linux desktop use which is the primary focus of this discussion, not the transparent use of them in infrastructure. 

Also "most of the internet" has nothing to do with this discussion, but if it did i'd point out that most of the internet is POSIX, not specifically GNU Linux. really Linux comes down to being used mostly by Middleware and DevOps, especially for running webservers. Much of the infrastructure side of things and embedded appliances dont use Linux. Many appliances use MIPS or RISC so use their own custom POSIX os', and a lot of infrastructure still runs on Unix or Solaris. 

 

Also to say MacOS is a variant from *nix, you're leading people to think its based on Linux where its not. Its a POSIX compliant OS derived from BSD.

This discussion is about Linux, not MacOS or BSD, so put your mic away. 

 

Market share does matter when you're talking about the context of this discussion, as the time to invest in researching, scripting and filming the additional content needs to be added into the cost of producing the content. My original comment still stands, that its not worth it for mainstream YouTube channels to cater to the less than 1% of people who use Linux and wouldnt know how to check for themselves. It would also potentially hurt their engagement by adding the extra content that most don't care about. 

[Gamer115x]

53 minutes ago, Twilight said:

it was a 1 click setup for me. my HP just has 2 boot options, Windows Boot Manager and Ubuntu, because there are 2 UEFI partitions to boot from on my SSD. just set it to Ubuntu and done, since you can still boot Windows from GRUB. 

And, pray tell, how did you get there? It isn't as simple as holding the Delete key or the F12 key while it starts up, since Fast Boot options set within the UEFI often skip a lot of prelimination sequences used by old BI/OS chips, though it is still there for legacy compatibility and coding methodology usually pertaiing of, "let's make the old new again, but better."

 

For an average user, such as myself when I first did this with an old decommissioned HP laptop, I was forced to hold down Shift while powering down to enter the UEFI, to which most users don't or won't do something that implies master-level knowledge. While most of the computer users on this earth are fairly competent in use with their computers, a fairly small percent are actively able to be classified as completely in familiartity with, at the very least, the equipment and software they use on a day-to-day basis.

 

Most users of a laptop or especially a desktop use them to do simple tasks, maybe on occasion a complicated computation or something, even a game or two to crush some extra clock cycles. They are not expected to suddenly learn how to subvert their system to get into the UEFI/BIOS to install Linux. This is why I advocate VMs since most users can use that to familiarize themselves with Linux, then go online with some tech forums (Like this one!) to take the next step if they want, or go find their geeky friend (most people know one) to help them out.

 

It's never "1 click". It's a few keycaps and a mouse battery later for many users. For people like you and me, it's just a few minutes and a cup of coffee later.

[straight_stewie]

33 minutes ago, Sauron said:

In my experience the worst "offenders" aren't old machines (people really like to run Linux on anything they can get it on) but rather highly integrated embedded systems like tablets where the proprietary firmware isn't standard or publicly available and is only designed to run Windows or Android.

That's true enough. While it is likely that Linux could, relatively easily, be made to run on the processors in such systems as most modern kernels rely on a relatively small set of common processor features, to make a useful Linux installation you would need access to the other components and features that are hidden away.

[Gamer115x]

7 minutes ago, Jarsky said:

 

<Explaining their knowledge and experience of the field>

 

Also to say MacOS is a variant from *nix, you're leading people to think its based on Linux where its not. Its a POSIX compliant OS derived from BSD.

This discussion is about Linux, not MacOS or BSD, so put your mic away. 

 

Market share does matter when you're talking about the context of this discussion, as the time to invest in researching, scripting and filming the additional content needs to be added into the cost of producing the content. My original comment still stands, that its not worth it for mainstream YouTube channels to cater to the less than 1% of people who use Linux and wouldnt know how to check for themselves. It would also potentially hurt their engagement by adding the extra content that most don't care about. 

I know enough when to drop my hat and let the professionals be at their position high above everyone else. As I may have mentioned, oversimplification can lead to misinformation (though I may have quoted that differently), and I am still considered a basic user (though advanced enough to use the Terminal prompt efficiently, and build packages from source. Though most of that isn't too hard to begin with) so I am still learning the way infrastructure works. Being a hobbyist/enthusiast only gives you so much experience.

 

I am still learning about servers, and I will add it to my personal knowledgebase regarding POSIX and RISC, though I am still planning on starting with Linux servers. Any recommendations regarding configurations and hardening? Legitimately asking.

 

When I talk about *nix as a topic, I usually regard the overarching structure of Unix and BSD, since BSD is often considered a "faithful" reconstruction of Unix for the modern environments. I did not mean to discount or mislead making MacOS sound like a Linux distro, but often the correlation is made because of the underlying architecture (since being based on Unix or an offset of Unix). The mic drop was only there because most people (including those who are withstanding this onslaught of back-and-forth but choose not to get involved) never knew how close of an ancestry MacOS and Linux had, even if it comes down to Indians and Colonists, if I'm allowed the comparison.

 

Regarding market share, it was meant in regards to an average consumer. While market share impacts the profit margin and probability to produce content regarding it, increasing awareness wouldn't hurt in some circumstances and depending on the topic and focus, could be profitable even with low market share. But I've never taken any classes in Economics, so, I'm basing this on theory.

 

In the end, I'm still in favor of the same opinion; performing consistent Linux tests on every and any PC is not worth it, and anyone who wishes to do that independently can post their results on either a separate forum thread, or on an official listing such as Debian's Hardware list.

[Jarsky]

2 hours ago, Gamer115x said:

I am still learning about servers, and I will add it to my personal knowledgebase regarding POSIX and RISC, though I am still planning on starting with Linux servers. Any recommendations regarding configurations and hardening? Legitimately asking.

 

Just to clarify POSIX is a standard which most Unix, BSD & GNU (Linux) kernels adhear to which include filesystem structure, C commands, shell, etc...which is why they seem very similar in ways and they share some commands like the ability to rm, ls, dir, grep, etc..... RISC was just an example I gave of CPU architecture. Many embedded appliances do not run X86 or X86_64 like regular PC's, Windows tablets, etc....they use things like MIPS, RISC, CISC, etc...that are specialised to run extremely lightweight systems...the most popular one you'd be familiar with would be ARM which are in most Android devices, Raspberry Pi, etc....you've probably heard of Ubiquiti, theyre large in the Prosumer game, they use MIPS processors in their routers & switches, which is why their EdgeOS is built on VysOS which again isn't GNU Linux, its a custom unix kernel built for MIPS. 

 

As for hardening, since you're talking about servers, are you talking about public facing webservers? This guide is a bit older but I think it covers well and in depth about hardening webservers: https://www.thefanclub.co.za/how-to/how-secure-ubuntu-1604-lts-server-part-1-basics

 

In the enterprise world most servers dont need to be especially hardened as theyre in private networks behind Firewalls, as with Windows your most important is RBAC/ABAC controls. DMZ servers are typically where you get into the above type of hardening. 

 

[lewdicrous]

19 hours ago, Gamer115x said:

- snip -

The question "should they do it", doesn't elicit much discussion imo, and when you get an answer that you don't like, then you resort to claiming that the youtubers are lazy. Exhibit A:

The better question would be "should they consider doing it", at least then you're promoting a back and forth discussion as to why they should/shouldn't.

 

The current discussion, including the one I linked, feels like it stems more from entitlement rather than interest, like "me and my friends use [insert anything here], why don't you put in the extra effort to please us?" This is why I said they're not obligated to do so.

There are youtubers who make content based on Linux and nothing else, saying LTT or others should do it feels like you're trying to piggyback off of their success, in the mean time, smaller channels are not getting the recognition they need.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Kilrah]

8 hours ago, Sauron said:

I'm sorry, when did it become our responsibility as Linux users to "sell you" Linux?

Never, but that's what a lot of them do anyway.

[Kisai]

8 hours ago, Sauron said:

I'm sorry, when did it become our responsibility as Linux users to "sell you" Linux?

Yeah, I don't care. "Linux"-zealots sunk any enthusiasm I had for Linux as a Desktop over a decade ago, and I'm not willing to give people who preach about Linux being godly-alternative-os-that-can-do-no-wrong the time of day anymore. I spent 20 years reading this drivel before on slashdot.org and I stopped caring a long time ago and stopped going there recently.

 

I do not need to use a Linux Desktop to get work done, and nobody seriously seems to care about supporting Linux anyway, like it's a checkmark on the OS diversity report card. To the extent I use Linux on a daily basis, is for web hosting environments, and the amount of code-rot that happens in Linux is substantial, to which the web host would rather just spin up a new machine and install a new OS on it than try to upgrade the old one. Lots of wasted time all around.

 

Every time some indie game comes out, it's like a broken record "Will there be a Linux version?" Nope, Linux users don't buy games. If a major developer who has the money to make a Linux port won't do it, an indie developer won't have resources at all. It's bad enough trying to support one version of Windows or OSX, but trying to support 270 variations of Linux is just not reasonable. Steam supports only Ubuntu, and this shows the Linux code-rot in action. 

 

Quote

So why is Valve ditching the most popular Linux desktop OS? Canonical, the company that owns and develops Ubuntu, said last week that Ubuntu 19.10 will not include any 32-bit packages. That means applications that rely on any 32-bit libraries or drivers won't work, which includes a large amount of games on Steam. 

Look if Microsoft can't drop 32-bit because it would break nearly every game released, Steam can't either, which means any Linux OS that doesn't ship with the necessary 32-bit libraries, can not play games.

[Sir0Tek]

On 3/1/2020 at 9:52 PM, Twilight said:

i personally think that being able to run an OS that isn't Windows is very important when considering a device. since i use computers for longer than people generally do (my laptop is 8 years old) i need the ability to run linux if microsoft ever releases a version of Windows that is more bulky than the last and my device slows down. 

 

<snipped a little>

 

I agree that some YTers should give a little more attention on Linux, especially when their focus is generally hardware-related, for example TechYes, GN, LTT.

I think they don't need to cover much, nor do they need to cover several distributions. Let's take LTT as an example, they could go with PopOS and just a short section of 'Will xy (for xy insert some nice game, like Shadows of Tomb Raider for example) run on Pop as well?' followed by a sequence on how it does run would do.

It might become a 'and can I Pop it?' in the future...

 

I went through 3 pages now, some members seem to literally hate Linux in general. Why?

 

[Gamer115x]

46 minutes ago, Sir0Tek said:

 

I went through 3 pages now, some members seem to literally hate Linux in general. Why?

 

I think it has something to do more with the people who push it like it's the new religion than Linux itself. When you phrase a question like you want something to happen, many people think there's a hint of entitlement.

 

It's a very slippery game. Since this thread started with the topic that popular channels like LTT should go as far as to test Linux on most -- if not, all -- products that enter their warehouse,

it literally isn't worth their time to do so. As such, since the OP of the thread has gone so far as to declare a nonverbal standing that they believe Linux is something that will draw traffic, it is a double-edged sword. It might get Linux more popularity, but it could also turn away primary viewers of the YT channel since Linux is either not their normal focus or they'd rather not get involved with something complicated/new; there's an explaination for every person, but the point is it likely won't happen because it isn't profitable.

 

53 minutes ago, Sir0Tek said:

It might become a 'and can I Pop it?' in the future...

 

Then, I guess, go do it. You as an individual have more power over this kind of thing than LTT or any mainstream YT channel that isn't just a bunch of hobbyists and enthusiasts conglomerated together. "Popping" that bubble is the tricky part, though.