Your car's computer system can be hacked with off-the-shelf parts

[Giddyguy]

Good thing my car doesn't even have a remote control to unlock the doors .

[Antistatic12]

This reminds me of one of the latest CSI episodes. They had tech that could do that.

[LAwLz]

Engine management is not often implemented as a can bus system and in the rare case that it is, it is an isolated system. Same goes for most airbag systems. The canbus system that you would easily be able tap into which would most likely be at the obd port, would just be either for diagnostics or be part of the cars climate control system, lights, ect. Also, Canbus is very often used in cars entertainment system. Cars steering wheel controls, radio functions, and in some cars even the displays in the gauge cluster or center console get their data through canbus. I deal with this stuff at my job all the time. Also, in almost every modern car the break system is pretty much all mechanical. You will only find electric power breaks in hybrids and electric cars. even then the electric power breaks are only used as an assist combined with your standard hydraulic break system. If canbus hackers where going to be a problem we would have been hearing about this a very long time ago. There is really nothing to be worried about

What is your job exactly? Because I have studied embedded systems in cars and we found CAN buses (it's CAN in all upper case, and then bus is a separate word, not canbus) in all cars, and they were used for a ton of stuff (including breaks and throttle).

Do you really think the breaks are mechanical? How do you imagine a mechanical ABS works? How do you think the anti spin system works? These are things that simply can't be purely mechanical, and they have to communicate (and They do so with a CAN bus usually).

Not sure what cars you have looked at, but even a quick Google search will prove you are wrong.

[rentaspoon]

All hail my old cars! Everything I own doesn't have a computer inside it

What cars do you have?

As for hacking, until they can wipe the modules wirelessly I wont worry. Most safety related systems are still running on switches and relays.

[Scheer]

What is your job exactly? Because I have studied embedded systems in cars and we found CAN buses (it's CAN in all upper case, and then bus is a separate word, not canbus) in all cars, and they were used for a ton of stuff (including breaks and throttle).

Do you really think the breaks are mechanical? How do you imagine a mechanical ABS works? How do you think the anti spin system works? These are things that simply can't be purely mechanical, and they have to communicate (and They do so with a CAN bus usually).

Not sure what cars you have looked at, but even a quick Google search will prove you are wrong.

 

If you have cruise control, you have electronic control on the throttle, and sometimes it is a vacuum system that I'm not sure if could be controlled by the CAN.

 

I'm fairly sure on most vehicles ABS is just a limiter, and there is no way to hit the brakes electronically. Thankfully they still don't put ABS on a lot of vehicles, the only way ABS is beneficial is to someone who has no clue how to drive and would just slam on the brakes without any thought. You might be able to hack something to block someone from hitting the brakes though... so use the purely mechanical (and don't argue this... its a direct linkage and nothing else on EVERY vehicle) emergency brake. Reminds me of the hippie who couldn't stop his Prius, likely because he had no idea what an e-brake was.

[flibberdipper]

Glad I don't even have a car in the first place.

[rentaspoon]

What is your job exactly? Because I have studied embedded systems in cars and we found CAN buses (it's CAN in all upper case, and then bus is a separate word, not canbus) in all cars, and they were used for a ton of stuff (including breaks and throttle).

Do you really think the breaks are mechanical? How do you imagine a mechanical ABS works? How do you think the anti spin system works? These are things that simply can't be purely mechanical, and they have to communicate (and They do so with a CAN bus usually).

Not sure what cars you have looked at, but even a quick Google search will prove you are wrong.

CANbus is the equivalent of the network hub on a home network not connected to the internet.

It allows all systems to chat to each other and is where you connect your diagnostics to not wirelessly.

As for brakes and clutch control thats not mechanical its hydrologics, Anti spin (traction control) is controlled by looking at the speed at the front wheels and comparing them to the back (varies from car to car) altering the amount of fuel going into the car.

And before you as Im in the motor trade for 10 years and been looking at cars since my dad had a 91 vauxhall cavielar.

[LAwLz]

I'm fairly sure on most vehicles ABS is just a limiter, and there is no way to hit the brakes electronically. Thankfully they still don't put ABS on a lot of vehicles, the only way ABS is beneficial is to someone who has no clue how to drive and would just slam on the brakes without any thought.

No it is controlled by computers and they very often use CAN buses to talk to each other.

ABS is very very common as well (thankfully). It is law that all new cars have ABS (or to be more precise, ESC). It has been standard for about 15 or so years. What kind of crappy cars have you seen that doesn't even have ABS? Also, it's easy to be cocky and go "you don't need them if you are a good driver" but as someone who has been in an accident, you don't have time to even think of how to break if something jumps up a few meters away from you. The whole "who has no clue how to drive and would just slam on the breaks without any thoughts" is very clear evidence that you have never been in a collision. And yes, ABS is controlled via the a CAN bus in most cars (from what I have seen).

 

 

You might be able to hack something to block someone from hitting the brakes though... so use the purely mechanical (and don't argue this... its a direct linkage and nothing else on EVERY vehicle) emergency brake. Reminds me of the hippie who couldn't stop his Prius, likely because he had no idea what an e-brake was.

Emergency break? You mean the hand brake? That is purely mechanical but you will barely have time to pull it, especially not if you think that your normal brakes work but someone has disabled them.

You are not a driving God...

 

 

By the way, here is a list of some of the systems in a normal car that uses the CAN buses:

Acceleration (if you have cruise control)

Breaks

The doors

The seatbelts

Airbags

Steering (in power steering)

Windows

The powertrain control module (which controls things like actuators in the engine).

[techswede]

This is why i'll never buy a new car

Mechanical systems ftw!

[rentaspoon]

No it is controlled by computers and they very often use CAN buses to talk to each other.

ABS is very very common as well (thankfully). It is law that all new cars have ABS (or to be more precise, ESC). It has been standard for about 15 or so years. What kind of crappy cars have you seen that doesn't even have ABS? Also, it's easy to be cocky and go "you don't need them if you are a good driver" but as someone who has been in an accident, you don't have time to even think of how to break if something jumps up a few meters away from you. The whole "who has no clue how to drive and would just slam on the breaks without any thoughts" is very clear evidence that you have never been in a collision. And yes, ABS is controlled via the a CAN bus in most cars (from what I have seen).

Emergency break? You mean the hand brake? That is purely mechanical but you will barely have time to pull it, especially not if you think that your normal brakes work but someone has disabled them.

You are not a driving God...

By the way, here is a list of some of the systems in a normal car that uses the CAN buses:

Acceleration (if you have cruise control)

Breaks

The doors

The seatbelts

Airbags

Steering (in power steering)

Windows

The powertrain control module (which controls things like actuators in the engine).

Please will you stop telling people incorrect information, pretty please? Think of my mental health.

[Ethnod]

Colour me...... not surprised in the slightest. I used to work for a very large service provider providing recovery and repair for most of main manufacturer's new cars (under waranty) in my counrty and software has been an issue for years and years

[LAwLz]

CANbus is the equivalent of the network hub on a home network not connected to the internet.

Yep I know, I have studied it... This hack connects it to the Internet though, so that they can remotely inject packets into it (wirelessly).

 

 

As for brakes and clutch control thats not mechanical its hydrologics

No, that is through the CAN bus. Again, ESC is REQUIRED BY LAW on all new vehicles, and ABS (which uses the CAN bus but more on that later) usually communicates over CAN as well. Even several years before it was law, over half of all new cars had it. The article even mentions that they remotely activated the cars breaks remotely with this hack installed, so the whole "they can't control the breaks via it" is not up for debate. They can do it. By the way, hydrological is mechanical... You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

 

Anti spin (traction control) is controlled by looking at the speed at the front wheels and comparing them to the back (varies from car to car) altering the amount of fuel going into the car. And before you as Im in the motor trade for 10 years and been looking at cars since my dad had a 91 vauxhall cavielar.

And how do you think the car knows the speed of the different wheels? Magic? It has sensors at each wheel that measures how fast they are going. How do the wheels then tell a central computer (which determines which wheels to break and how much) how fast they are spinning? By sending the info over a CAN bus.

For having been in the motor trade for 10 years you know very little...

 

 

Please will you stop telling people incorrect information, pretty please? Think of my mental health.

Actually, I am the one giving them correct info (because I have actually studied and done research about this, unlike you). Please do some research before saying dumb crap in the future. Otherwise you will just make a fool out of yourself.

Thanks

[helping]

Thankfully they still don't put ABS on a lot of vehicles, the only way ABS is beneficial is to someone who has no clue how to drive and would just slam on the brakes without any thought

You realize a well calibrated ABS system can stop a car while maintaining control faster and better than any human, right? 

[rashdanml]

hydrologics

FYI, it's hydraulics, and that is a mechanical system, usually with an electrical system as an redundant system.

[rentaspoon]

Yep I know, I have studied it... This hack connects it to the Internet though, so that they can remotely inject packets into it (wirelessly).

No, that is through the CAN bus. Again, ESC is REQUIRED BY LAW on all new vehicles, and ABS (which uses the CAN bus but more on that later) usually communicates over CAN as well. Even several years before it was law, over half of all new cars had it. The article even mentions that they remotely activated the cars breaks remotely with this hack installed, so the whole "they can't control the breaks via it" is not up for debate. They can do it. By the way, hydrological is mechanical... You have no idea what you are talking about.

And how do you think the car knows the speed of the different wheels? Magic? It has sensors at each wheel that measures how fast they are going. How do the wheels then tell a central computer (which determines which wheels to break and how much) how fast they are spinning? By sending the info over a CAN bus.

For having been in the motor trade for 10 years you know very little...

Actually, I am the one giving them correct info (because I have actually studied and done research about this, unlike you). Please do some research before saying dumb crap in the future. Otherwise you will just make a fool out of yourself.

Thanks

1. A diagnostics machine connects it to the internet and remote modules that have been wired into the car have been available to car modding communities for years, for me this is nothing new.

2. The ABS module controls the brakes, to me if someone had a hydrologic clutch the have a master and slave cylinder rather than a mechanical which would be a fork and release bearing. (Car terminology wise)

3. The car can tell by the abs ring or the geabox sensor or even the revs by the ignition timing depending from car to car, the brakes arent applied for TC the engine ecu (PCM) adjusts the fuel injection not by slowing it down but it actually pulses the fueling off and on. There is no central computer involved.

You may have studied this, congratulations. So have I, now go study some more before you insult my knowledge and experience.

If you want to discuss this further please pm me

[rentaspoon]

FYI, it's hydraulics, and that is a mechanical system, usually with an electrical system as an redundant system.

Thanks wasnt sure on the spelling blaming samsungs spell check, as above I was talking in car terminology.

[LAwLz]

1. A diagnostics machine connects it to the internet and remote modules that have been wired into the car have been available to car modding communities for years, for me this is nothing new.

OK, so someone with a 20 dollar device being able to remotely turn on the breaks, disable your safety belt and accelerating your car is nothing new? Wirelessly by the way.

 

 

2. The ABS module controls the brakes, to me if someone had a hydrologic clutch the have a master and slave cylinder rather than a mechanical which would be a fork and release bearing. (Car terminology wise)

Yes, and the ABS module is connected via CAN buses to the sensors at the wheels. That's why the people the article talked about were able to remotely enable the breaks in the car. By the way, something can be mechanical and have master/slave relationship. Do you even know what the term "mechanical" means? Because you are misusing it a lot here.

 

 

3. The car can tell by the abs ring or the geabox sensor or even the revs by the ignition timing depending from car to car, the brakes arent applied for TC the engine ecu (PCM) adjusts the fuel injection not by slowing it down but it actually pulses the fueling off and on. There is no central computer involved.

OK... So how do the car keep track of how fast each wheel is spinning? I am really interested in how you think it works, because how it actually works is by sensors at the wheels which communicate via a CAN bus... Things like turning off/on fuel injecting might be a way to reduce power to certain wheels, but it does not explain how the info is gathered. You can't modulate wheels individually if there is no info being gathered about them.

 

 

You may have studied this, congratulations. So have I, now go study some more before you insult my knowledge and experience.

Well apparently you haven't studied enough, since you don't even know what mechanical means, nor do you understand how sensors need to talk to each other. Otherwise you have no info about what needs adjusting.

Want proof that what I am saying is right? Read the article OP linked. Google "CAN bus abs".

[rentaspoon]

OK, so someone with a 20 dollar device being able to remotely turn on the breaks, disable your safety belt and accelerating your car is nothing new? Wirelessly by the way

Well apparently you haven't studied enough, since you don't even know what mechanical means, nor do you understand how sensors need to talk to each other. Otherwise you have no info about what needs adjusting.

Want proof that what I am saying is right? Read the article OP linked. Google "CAN bus abs".

Im gonna hit these two posts then leave the forum for a while.

First its brakes not breaks if your going to have a go at me about something get that right.

It says you have to "hook it up" to me that means manually attach it somehow yes possible as it takes only 5 minutes and yes you can get diagnostics as well as modify setting wirelessly via bluetooth, control over your acceleration has been used for DPF regenerations, seat belt tensioners can be disabled for child seats. As for people hacking your car? Turn the engine off.

I've been to the Ford College past my technician and parts advisor apprenticeship had constant training and updates through my 10 years along with what Im saying backed up by other technicians. I dont need to google anything.

As for mechanical thing if you gonna talk cars Im going to assume you'd know car terminology the standard definition may not apply in the motor trade.

Have fun people

[LAwLz]

-snip-

Nice backpedaling. It went from "you don't know what you are talking about, you are spreading misinformation" to "just turn the engine off". Turning off seat belt tension is idiotic as well. That is what someone that want to cause damage would do. "Oh no, they might disable our seat belts, let's disable them before the hackers do it!"

Everything I have said in this thread is correct. A lot of what you have said is wrong. For example you implied that traction control works without using a CAN bus. You said it was not wireless (which it usually isn't, with with this hack it is). You also implied that you couldn't engage the brake with this hack.

You threw the first rock by saying "Please will you stop telling people incorrect information, pretty please? Think of my mental health." when I was actually giving out correct info.

 

The lack of security on the CAN bus (as well as the pathetic bandwidth) was the first thing I thought of when I started studying embedded systems in cars. We really need something new like FlexRay to take off. Especially now that we are getting more and more systems in cars (a standard car today has like 50 computers). Hopefully this will speed up the development of secure links in cars. Otherwise I don't even want to imagine what might happen when we see more advanced cars showing up (for example cars that can communicate with each other).

[gastew15]

Yep I pretty much figured that this would be all it would take to do so. I mean there's not real reason to be honest as not really too much happens on a lot of car's computers that are assessable through this, at least that is anything note worthy. CAN is a pretty open and powerful medium though. We use CAN for some stuff in First to get information through software.

[rentaspoon]

-snip-

Actually that wasnt the first stone thrown.

I apologise if I'm not clear enough but I'm not back peddling or your just reading it how you want but there are no CANbusses as you said just modules and a network between them, the system you sound like you studied is something like a car with OBD2.

Want to prove me wrong? Phone up a Ford dealership and get me the engineering part number or finis code on whatever you think is and I'll look it up monday morning.

Now leaving as this is now way off topic.

[SKOONJar]

What cars do you have?

As for hacking, until they can wipe the modules wirelessly I wont worry. Most safety related systems are still running on switches and relays.

I have a 1967 chevy chevelle, a 1970 chevy c10 4x4, and a 1956 ford f100. 

[LAwLz]

Actually that wasnt the first stone thrown. I apologise if I'm not clear enough but I'm not back peddling or your just reading it how you want but there are no CANbusses as you said just modules and a network between them, the system you sound like you studied is something like a car with OBD2. Want to prove me wrong? Phone up a Ford dealership and get me the engineering part number or finis code on whatever you think is and I'll look it up monday morning. Now leaving as this is now way off topic.

Do you even know what a CAN bus is? This part: "just modules and a network between them" makes it sound like you don't. Those sensors/modules are connected via CAN buses.

Again, how do you think the sensors at the tiers communicate with each other? Through magic? No, they are connected via CAN buses. Again, this is why the hack allowed the people to engage the breaks remotely.

 

I seriously don't understand how you can not understand this simple concept.

You working at some Ford dealership has nothing to do with this conversation. You are trying to make an argumentum ab auctoritate which is a logical fallacy.

 

I am going to answer you a third/fourth/whatever time... How do you think the sensors in the tiers communicate with each other? You know the ones that are used to adjust how much breaking power are applied to each individual tier.

 

This isn't off topic either. This is about the implications of the news article. You seem to think that CAN buses are not used for stuff in cars, when in reality they are used for a huge amount of safety stuff. Seat belts, breaks, acceleration, engine and airbags to mention a few. Of course this does not apply to all cars (for example some Audi and some BMW cars use FlexRay for a lot of stuff) but I am talking in general.

[scaryjam823]

I could have some fun with that. Though i would use it on a loud motorcycle and shut it off. No one likes those people.

Half the reason people have loud motorcycles is so you can hear them and be aware they are around. It can be overdone sometimes, but the idea started so other drivers are aware of them. 

[Scheer]

No it is controlled by computers and they very often use CAN buses to talk to each other.

ABS is very very common as well (thankfully). It is law that all new cars have ABS (or to be more precise, ESC). It has been standard for about 15 or so years. What kind of crappy cars have you seen that doesn't even have ABS? Also, it's easy to be cocky and go "you don't need them if you are a good driver" but as someone who has been in an accident, you don't have time to even think of how to break if something jumps up a few meters away from you. The whole "who has no clue how to drive and would just slam on the breaks without any thoughts" is very clear evidence that you have never been in a collision. And yes, ABS is controlled via the a CAN bus in most cars (from what I have seen).

 

 

Emergency break? You mean the hand brake? That is purely mechanical but you will barely have time to pull it, especially not if you think that your normal brakes work but someone has disabled them.

You are not a driving God...

 

My driving instructor told me once that you cannot call a wreck an accident as accidents cannot be avoided... My work car is an '08 Grand Prix, no ABS, my wifes '08 Grand Prix does not have ABS, I did have an '04 Grand Prix with ABS though and can compare pretty directly that the '04 sucked trying to stop on gravel and ice. My '96 Jeep Cherokee doesn't have ABS, but my brothers does, another direct comparison where I've noticed no-ABS is much better. Maybe I'm just weird, but instinct kicked in when I got in an wreck and without thinking I did everything that I was taught to do in a situation like that. It's not going to help Nebraska's reputation, but the only collision I was in was with a herd of cattle lmao. The farmer shut off the electric fence to save electricity and I hit two of them on a major highway in the middle of the night at the top of a hill, not very avoidable since it was a line of them from ditch to ditch, but I still accept that it was entirely my fault for not paying enough attention. Now being from Nebraska I've used my brakes quite a bit as about once a week from spring to fall you have to avoid a deer if you drive country roads, god must be looking after me since I haven't hit one yet even without the magical ABS, very odd that I know a lot of people with ABS who have hit them though... I'm not calling myself a driving god by any means, but I do think the majority of the population are HORRIBLE drivers and driving classes should be required by law well before ABS should be. 

 

Emergency brake, parking brake, hand brake, same difference. The reference to the idiot who didn't think to use his was uncontrollably driving down the interstate for like 30 minutes and never thought of it, would it take you half an hour to remember about it?