Mac pro and XDR display orders available now + unboxing

[Commodus]

7 hours ago, AngryBeaver said:

Alright last go

 

p101 Pro version

Intel xeon w-2195 18c/36t

32gb DDR 4 Ecc ram

1 512gb m.2 SSD

2x 2tb 7200 HDD (4tb total)

1 Nvidia Quadro p5000

stage 2 AIO package for CPU

 

Total is 5904. So this machine is using twice the CPU, probably 5-6x the GPU, and probably has a better cooling solution. For 100 less. Again my argument is that the Apple product is EXTREMELY overpriced. Not even that, but digital storm is also known for being on the higher side of custom ordered machines... yet they are cheaper for much better specs.

 

Code:	2767797
URL:	https://www.digitalstorm.com/configurator.asp?id=2767797

Just saw this... as I pointed out, the Xeon you're comparing against is two years old, and the SSD performance is uncertain.  Yeah, if you like outdated hardware, please get a Digital Storm workstation.

[jasonvp]

15 hours ago, AngryBeaver said:

So I am curious what makes people think that apple laptops/desktops are worth it. Do you really feel they are a good value and are better than many other solutions?

And I'm curious why people can't grok that: it's the OS, man.  We continue to "waste money," as you put it, on Apple hardware because OS X just works on it without having to jump through silly Hackintosh hoops.  It's OK if you can't appreciate that, of course.  OS X/MacOS fans are legion, and Apple will continue to sell Mac hardware even if you think they're a waste of money.

 

[Bombastinator]

Most of what I think has been said.  The only thing I think worth addressing is the monitor stand.

 

Yes the monitor stand is ridiculously over priced. I think Apple knows it and I think they did it on purpose. I don’t think they expect to sell many of them.  Apple likes third party vendors.  They like them a lot.  The deliberately ridiculous monitor stand is an invitation to third part developers to make something cheaper. It room deliberately left open.

 

i personally think it was the wrong place.  I think room should have been left open for the GPUs.  The Mac Pro cooling solution for GPUs is better than the current one.  By a lot.  More quieter air means less noise at higher watts.  You could literally put more GPU in a Mac Pro than you can in a PC.  Modern GPUs have been basically the same physical dimensionfor 10 years, and it’s because of the air cooler.  You just can’t put more than 250w max through a 2x card that fits in an (X)atx case.  The Mac Pro system raises that to maybe 350w.  It’s a hellacious jump.  The problem is there aren’t bigger gpus made because they can’t fit in (X)atx.

 

That’s a space users care about.

[AngryBeaver]

7 hours ago, Commodus said:

Just saw this... as I pointed out, the Xeon you're comparing against is two years old, and the SSD performance is uncertain.  Yeah, if you like outdated hardware, please get a Digital Storm workstation.

This was just one of the custom/prebuilt sites I knew that were on the spendier side and that also produce quality products.

 

I can easily find a HP or Dell workstation for far cheaper that would be on par with the specs.

 

1 hour ago, jasonvp said:

And I'm curious why people can't grok that: it's the OS, man.  We continue to "waste money," as you put it, on Apple hardware because OS X just works on it without having to jump through silly Hackintosh hoops.  It's OK if you can't appreciate that, of course.  OS X/MacOS fans are legion, and Apple will continue to sell Mac hardware even if you think they're a waste of money.

Except there are free options that almost identical in the linux side of things. Even if we say that OS X is nice it isn't worth a thousand plus for identical hardware to get it.

[Bombastinator]

10 minutes ago, AngryBeaver said:

 

Except there are free options that almost identical in the linux side of things. Even if we say that OS X is nice it isn't worth a thousand plus for identical hardware to get it.

To you anyway.  That’s fine.  You’re not everyone though.  Neither are Mac users.

 

I’ve tried to use Linux several times.  Every single time I do I wind up having some “well you have to go command line for that” issue.

 

macs are for people who don’t do command line.  For people for whom entire concept that they have to use a computer to do their work is annoying.  They’ve got other stuff to get done than playing around with their computer.  They don’t want to know about computers or how they work.  They want to do the thing they’re doing.

For the average Mac user Linux is a hard fail.

[jasonvp]

17 minutes ago, AngryBeaver said:

Except there are free options that almost identical in the linux side of things. Even if we say that OS X is nice it isn't worth a thousand plus for identical hardware to get it.

But there aren't.  Not in the real world where I'm paid to get stuff done on a day to day basis.  I don't have time to mess around with my laptop/desktop OS and the free software that runs on it when I'm being paid to get work done.

 

And "worth" is something that individuals have to assign.  It's not worth it to you.  That's fine.  It IS worth it to me and many others.

 

 

[AngryBeaver]

1 minute ago, jasonvp said:

But there aren't.  Not in the real world where I'm paid to get stuff done on a day to day basis.  I don't have time to mess around with my laptop/desktop OS and the free software that runs on it when I'm being paid to get work done.

 

And "worth" is something that individuals have to assign.  It's not worth it to you.  That's fine.  It IS worth it to me and many others.

 

 

Good thing we have windows then. No command line, it just works, and support far more software than OS X.

[jasonvp]

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

macs are for people who don’t do command line.  For people for whom entire concept that they have to use a computer to do their work is annoying. They’ve got other stuff to get done than playing around with their computer.  They don’t want to know about computers or how they work.  They want to do the thing they’re doing.

For the average Mac user Linux is a hard fail.

Be careful with your generalizations.  All generalizations are false....

 

You're somewhat correct in your statement, but not entirely.  Example: I've been using Linux since Linus dropped it onto Usenet back in the early 90s when I was a college boy.  I spent a lot of time in the mid-late 90s using Linux on my desktop at work, because MOST of my work involved SSH'ing off to some other place.  But there was that chunk of time where I had to go through Excel spreadsheets, or Word docs, or Powerpoint presos... and Linux on the desktop just fell flat on its face.

 

When Apple decided to re-do their operating system by basing it on BSD UNIX, that changed... well it changed everything.  I generally disliked the Mac OS leading up to that point, but once it was sitting on top of UNIX, I was home.  I had a real UNIX-based CLI (with ssh), and I could run all of the crap software from Microsoft that makes just about every office in the world go 'round.  Natively.  Without tinkering.  Because I don't get paid to tinker.

 

But I can tinker.  And have spent a lifetime doing it.  I'm just tired of it and don't want to.  Nor do I have time to.

 

[jasonvp]

5 minutes ago, AngryBeaver said:

Good thing we have windows then. No command line, it just works, and support far more software than OS X.

 

Like the previous guy I just replied to: you have to be careful of your generalizations.  And your ignorance.  Trust me, son, I've been doing this VASTLY longer than you have.

[Bombastinator]

43 minutes ago, AngryBeaver said:

Good thing we have windows then. No command line, it just works, and support far more software than OS X.

Nope.  It does have a command line.  It’s just so craptacular almost no one uses it.  Unless they have to.  I’ve been having to do that more and more lately.

 

PCs have games.  And they have a tiny price advantage.

 I use a PC now.  I like games.  I’m also not doing daily work that requires a computer anymore.  If I did I’d probably still be using a Mac.  They do it better than PC when they’re not screwing up their hardware.  The PC GUI is a bad copy of the Mac GUI.  A better one than it used to be.  Everyone copies Mac.

 

small point of irony: OSX has a command line too and it’s even better than the Linux one.  It’s BSD.  That thing the Linux command line is a bad copy of.  The Linux command line has gotten better too.  More BSD like.  Everybody copies Mac.

[AngryBeaver]

34 minutes ago, jasonvp said:

 

Like the previous guy I just replied to: you have to be careful of your generalizations.  And your ignorance.  Trust me, son, I've been doing this VASTLY longer than you have.

A few things here. First off you assume you have been doing it longer without knowing anything about me. A quick profile view might help dispell some ignorance.

 

I have literally used all the major OS's and while I do not like apple products it would be irresponsible for me to be unfamiliar with them.

 

I didn't even look at this from a corporate stance where they are arguably an even bigger concern from a security stance POV.

 

Now like everything else Macs Laptop/desktops have pro's and con's. For me I cannot justify the cons enough to even consider purchasing one and I think they are the definition of a evil corp.

 

The products have not been innovative in a good while.

 

They are violating people's "right to repair" instead coming up with excuse to just sell you a new one.

 

Their prices are not in line for what you receive.

 

They are more than happy to use their financial power to sway politicians and bully random people. They also love to use legal action to bully people out of doing things that are perfectly legal.

 

I feel that if you are buying a product you are effectively giving them your support and backing their decisions. I would never agree with their practices and the decisions they have made on key issues.

[jasonvp]

1 minute ago, AngryBeaver said:

A few things here. First off you assume you have been doing it longer without knowing anything about me. A quick profile view might help dispell some ignorance.

 

No dispelling; I'm in my mid-40s and am far further along than you are and have, actually, been doing this way longer than you.  Try again, though.

 

Quote

I didn't even look at this from a corporate stance where they are arguably an even bigger concern from a security stance POV.

How in god's name did you come to "an even bigger" security concern.  In comparison to what?

 

Quote

For me I cannot justify the cons enough to even consider purchasing one

Emphasis added by me.  YOU can't justify using them, but I can.  So can tons and tons of other engineers, developers, architects, and general office-goers.

 

Quote

and I think they are the definition of a evil corp.

A little hyperbole never hurt an argument, eh?

 

Quote

I feel that if you are buying a product you are effectively giving them your support and backing their decisions. I would never agree with their practices and the decisions they have made on key issues.

That's fine; you do you, man.  I'm going to continue to purchase the hardware that lets me do what I need to do for work (and play) with a far more usable environment/OS than what's available elsewhere.  I can understand you not agreeing, just don't be too quick to cast dispersions upon us.

 

[AngryBeaver]

19 minutes ago, jasonvp said:

Snip

 

Just going to PM you and take this offline. Don't want to turn this thread into a back and forth 

[Bombastinator]

18 minutes ago, AngryBeaver said:

A few things here. First off you assume you have been doing it longer without knowing anything about me. A quick profile view might help dispell some ignorance.

 

I have literally used all the major OS's and while I do not like apple products it would be irresponsible for me to be unfamiliar with them.

 

I didn't even look at this from a corporate stance where they are arguably an even bigger concern from a security stance POV.

 

Now like everything else Macs Laptop/desktops have pro's and con's. For me I cannot justify the cons enough to even consider purchasing one and I think they are the definition of a evil corp.

 

The products have not been innovative in a good while.

 

They are violating people's "right to repair" instead coming up with excuse to just sell you a new one.

 

Their prices are not in line for what you receive.

 

They are more than happy to use their financial power to sway politicians and bully random people. They also love to use legal action to bully people out of doing things that are perfectly legal.

 

I feel that if you are buying a product you are effectively giving them your support and backing their decisions. I would never agree with their practices and the decisions they have made on key issues.

Re: evil

they are a for profit corporation.  There by definition is going to be some evil.  Which of the three major platforms has the least evil though?

Microsoft?  Less now than they used to perhaps.  Historically they were far far worse, and most of it only stopped because the courts got involved.  Explorer integration? C sharp? Their refusal to EVER fricking correctly follow an ISO standard but merely claim they have while throwing in little hidden speed bumps?

 

Linux? It is “free”.  The way people get paid writing code for Linux is they keep making a fork or a different version of everything so they can be in charge and get credit for “innovating” something so they can go work somewhere else.  The result is Linux is a mess of competing distros and competing file systems and networking systems and all sorts of garbage, and a lot of them have more little hidden speed bumps designed to make other systems not work than Microsoft ever put in their stuff.

You were making the point that Apple is evil.  Ok.  Which is more evil?

 

Re: security

possibly valid.  I have no info.  They seem overly secretive about it and they have a history of not hitting it as hard as they should.  That’s history though.  Maybe it’s still true. Maybe not.

 

re: right to repair

full marks. It’s a problem.  To be fair it’s only because neither Microsoft or Linux have any control over hardware at all, and consequently can’t lose on this one because they’re not involved, but it is there.

re:  they cost too much

you phrased that differently.  You implied there was some sort of right to low cost hardware that Apple was violating, but that’s what it really comes down to:  the Apple tax.

The Apple tax is real.  There’s a reason for it though.  Remember that “everyone copies Apple” bit?  That’s other groups not shouldering development costs.  Apple has to make an OS that is better than PC AND better than Linux AT THE SAME TIME, and they have to do the development themselves, because all the other OSes do is cherry pick the good bits for free.  So yeah, it costs more.  Apple could just sell Mac OS to run on standard PC hardware.  It would work.  It has worked.  The problem is because of all these things OSX is fearsomely expensive to develop.  My memory is they looked at just selling the OS like windows but the per unit cost would be something like $300

 

[Bombastinator]

2 hours ago, jasonvp said:

Be careful with your generalizations.  All generalizations are false....

 

You're somewhat correct in your statement, but not entirely.  Example: I've been using Linux since Linus dropped it onto Usenet back in the early 90s when I was a college boy.  I spent a lot of time in the mid-late 90s using Linux on my desktop at work, because MOST of my work involved SSH'ing off to some other place.  But there was that chunk of time where I had to go through Excel spreadsheets, or Word docs, or Powerpoint presos... and Linux on the desktop just fell flat on its face.

 

When Apple decided to re-do their operating system by basing it on BSD UNIX, that changed... well it changed everything.  I generally disliked the Mac OS leading up to that point, but once it was sitting on top of UNIX, I was home.  I had a real UNIX-based CLI (with ssh), and I could run all of the crap software from Microsoft that makes just about every office in the world go 'round.  Natively.  Without tinkering.  Because I don't get paid to tinker.

 

But I can tinker.  And have spent a lifetime doing it.  I'm just tired of it and don't want to.  Nor do I have time to.

 

Then you might remember Linux actually being based on Minix then and the whole hole in the copywriter coverage and a teenage Linus leaping through it by the skin of his teeth and the only reason it was even worth doing was that BSD was locked up in court by a patent troll.

 

Not all Mac users are the way I described.  It is true.  The GUI is built for them though.

[jasonvp]

Just now, Bombastinator said:

Then you might remember Linux actually being based on Minix then

Yep.  And in fact I used Minix quite heavily in my Operating Systems programming class back then, too.

 

"The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from."  -- Andy Tennenbaum

[Bombastinator]

36 minutes ago, jasonvp said:

Yep.  And in fact I used Minix quite heavily in my Operating Systems programming class back then, too.

 

"The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from."  -- Andy Tennenbaum

You might be a great person to ask a question of then:

most of the people I talk to about hardware are BSD heads.  They didn’t like Linux popping up and taking the place they expected BSD to take.  They as a result had very bad things to say about minix, but they’re biased so I can’t take what they say as gospel.  Their take was that minix was a rip of UNIX much as DOS was a rip of cp/m and of a similar quality level, which is to say low.  How accurate is that really?

[jasonvp]

6 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

most of the people I talk to about hardware are BSD heads.  They didn’t like Linux popping up and taking the place they expected BSD to take.  They as a result had very bad things to say about minix, but they’re biased so I can’t take what they say as gospel.  Their take was that minix was a rip of UNIX much as DOS was a rip of cp/m and of a similar quality level, which is to say low.  How accurate is that really?

There's a long-standing rivalry between SysV and BSD as is somewhat explained here.  That may be part of it.  Minix and Linux have historically leaned a bit more towards SysV than BSD, though Linux does at least mix the best of them (IMHO).  At least it has until they decided to go "full retard" with systemd, but that's another story and there are good reasons for it.  Minix wasn't a "rip" of UNIX, it was literally a free UNIX(-like) OS.  Period.  It even ran on 286s which had all of the pre-emptive multi-tasking of... a calculator.  But, it did it.  And it provided a fantastic teaching environment for OS programmers.

 

Minix was never really intended to be a full time "Do everything" OS for your PC.  It was meant to be booted up and learned on/with, then shutdown.  So, I really don't get the reasoning behind the hate.

 

The BSD "base" lost one of its biggest commercial supporters when Sun decided that SunOS should end, and Solaris should be a thing.  It was a slow transition, and most Sun users went kicking and screaming (they're STILL kicking and screaming).  SunOS being the definitive commercial BSD UNIX at the time, while SLOW-aris (as it was and is called) was very much SysV.  More hate.

 

Ultimately where I think we are is: it's BSD vs. the (UNIX) world.  Which I think is silly.  I use FreeBSD heavily at home; any and all UNIX-based servers and routers, etc are all running FreeBSD.  I've de-Linux'd my house as much as I can only because I don't care for the direction all of the distros went.  But that's not a slag against the Linux OS or kernel itself.  And I still use it heavily here at work.  

 

... while I'm on my Mac.

[NumLock21]

Still no price or any information about those Mac Pro wheels.

[suits]

I want that monitor though. The stand, suck a meme. But a true professional monitor for a fraction of the cost of others? Drool...

[realpetertdm]

17 hours ago, jasonvp said:

 

Like the previous guy I just replied to: you have to be careful of your generalizations.  And your ignorance.  Trust me, son, I've been doing this VASTLY longer than you have.

Sounding like an entitled boomer doesn't really help your case, FYI.

[jasonvp]

1 hour ago, realpetertdm said:

Sounding like an entitled boomer doesn't really help your case, FYI.

And using a term you clearly don't understand doesn't help yours.  Run along.

[realpetertdm]

53 minutes ago, jasonvp said:

And using a term you clearly don't understand doesn't help yours.  Run along.

You mean boomer? Okay boomer.

[williamcll]

Reviews are coming out now

 

[NumLock21]

OK so them Mac Pro wheels cost $400!