What does Linus use for his "comparison" to iMacs?

[Fasauceome]

One of my best selling points to convince someone to switch to PC is that you can get the same horsepower for less money, sometimes half the cost. But when Linus talks about Macs, he usually mentions that it costs the same to build a PC, but how's that? Here's an iMac 2019 with a 6 core i7, 32GB of ram, 1TB of SSD space, Vega 20, and the magic mouse:

Why so expensive then? For much less money, you get a lot better performance:

(This parts list is better as a mac comparison than my last.)

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	Intel - Core i9-9900K 3.6 GHz 8-Core Processor	$474.99 @ Walmart
CPU Cooler	be quiet! - Shadow Rock Slim 67.8 CFM Rifle Bearing CPU Cooler	$49.80 @ OutletPC
Motherboard	MSI - Z390-A PRO ATX LGA1151 Motherboard	$119.79 @ OutletPC
Memory	Corsair - Vengeance LPX 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-2666 Memory	$144.99 @ Newegg Business
Storage	Samsung - 860 QVO 1 TB 2.5" Solid State Drive	$107.99 @ B&H
Video Card	XFX - Radeon VII 16 GB Video Card	$679.99 @ Amazon
Case	NZXT - H500 (White) ATX Mid Tower Case	$69.99 @ Amazon
Power Supply	Corsair - CXM 550 W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply	$59.89 @ OutletPC
Operating System	Microsoft - Windows 10 Home OEM 64-bit	$99.39 @ OutletPC
Monitor	Dell - U3219Q 31.5" 3840x2160 60 Hz Monitor	$819.99 @ B&H
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total (before mail-in rebates)	$2676.81
	Mail-in rebates	-$50.00
	Total	$2626.81
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2019-05-06 01:58 EDT-0400

Just threw this list together real quick but you can clearly see it has a quality PSU, more cores, better graphics, keeps that chic white look, and has a nice high res monitor with good color, so little corner cutting for serious power.

There has to be something I'm missing right? I remember when Linus reviewed the iMac pro early last year, Vega prices were insane so putting that in the pricing chart jacked up the PC cost when a GTX card was a better buy, but since then I fail to see what makes PCs so expensive, or iMacs so cheap, at the same spec.

Edited May 6, 2019 by fasauceome

[Semper]

I'm in a position where searching for systems to compare to is a huge pain at the moment.
Have you looked into comparable AIO units? I don't know much about AIO's, but I imagine they'd be more expensive than a traditional tower.

[Zagna]

iMac 2019 the one used in the last iMac video it seems. Biggest difference is Asus PA329Q which is a 1000$+ monitor. And a higher quality mb.

[Dredgy]

Would assume he’d go for feature parity when comparing, so that would involve a 5K display, nvme SSD and thunderbolt support.

 

 A 5K monitor comparable to the iMacs will be over $1000 on its own. It’s a pretty great screen in other areas (colour accuracy primarily) that your display isn’t really comparable even if you were disregarding resolution.

[Fasauceome]

2 minutes ago, Semper said:

I'm in a position where searching for systems to compare to is a huge pain at the moment.
Have you looked into comparable AIO units? I don't know much about AIO's, but I imagine they'd be more expensive than a traditional tower.

AIOs are more expensive for sure, custom form factors are always more expensive. I could still make an ITX PC for the volume/performance comparison and it would still come out ahead of the iMac, but the other thing is that the comparison is price alone from LTT, not performance in a small form factor.

4 minutes ago, Zagna said:

iMac 2019 the one used in the last iMac video it seems. Biggest difference is Asus PA329Q which is a 1000$+ monitor. And a higher quality mb.

I'm not sure that monitor would be required for a true comparison to an apple pro retina display, if I look into the specs like brightness, color spectrum coverage, etc, I'm sure I could find a decent competitor, my spot check was just a quick "good 4k monitor" grab. And still the parts list is better, I believe the model tested by LMG had a 5400RPM drive.

[badreg]

You can't substitute a $350 sRGB monitor and say that it is the same as a $1k+ P3 / REC2020 monitor.

 

These machines are targeted towards content creators, and having accurate, wide gamut displays are as important as computing horsepower. For normal people, it's completely not necessary, and way more normal people buy iMacs than professionals.

[Fasauceome]

1 minute ago, Dredgy said:

Would assume he’d go for feature parity when comparing, so that would involve a 5K display, nvme SSD and thunderbolt support.

 

 A 5K monitor comparable to the iMacs will be over $1000 on its own. It’s a pretty great screen in other areas (colour accuracy primarily) that your display isn’t really comparable even if you were disregarding resolution.

the iMac doesn't have a 5k option.

[Fasauceome]

Just now, badreg said:

You can't substitute a $350 sRGB monitor and say that it is the same as a $1k+ P3 / REC2020 monitor.

 

These machines are targeted towards content creators, and having accurate, wide gamut displays are as important as computing horsepower. For normal people, it's completely not necessary, and way more normal people buy iMacs than professionals.

for competitors to apple's pro retina display, is the $1000 price range the only competition? If you want great color, decent brightness, and 4k, what's out there?

[Electronics Wizardy]

The imac also comes with things like a keyboard + mouse, bluetooth + wifi, a os, a better ssd than whats listed, thunderbolt, good speakers(for a all in one).

 

And the upgrades are the awful value normally, just upgrade the ram yourself later.

[badreg]

4 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

for competitors to apple's pro retina display, is the $1000 price range the only competition? If you want great color, decent brightness, and 4k, what's out there?

UP3216Q is what I use, and Linus used this for his broken iMac comparison.

 

Brightness doesn't matter, because you calibrate to 120cd/m2. Color gamut, color accuracy, and hardware calibration are the key features.

[Fasauceome]

4 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

The imac also comes with things like a keyboard + mouse, bluetooth + wifi, a os, a better ssd than whats listed, thunderbolt, good speakers(for a all in one).

 

And the upgrades are the awful value normally, just upgrade the ram yourself later.

There's features and there's performance, Linus hasn't used things like expansion cards for his price comparisons, so that muddies the waters further. Also, the value of something like MacOS is pretty subjective since they don't sell it alone, and good ol windows is still free when you want it to be.

 

3 minutes ago, badreg said:

UP3216Q is what I use, and Linus used this for his broken iMac comparison.

 

Brightness doesn't matter, because you calibrate to 120CD/M. Color gamut, color accuracy, and hardware calibration are the key features.

Since I'm not a monitor buff, is this comparable?

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/3fBTwP/dell-u3219q-315-3840x2160-60-hz-monitor-u3219q

[badreg]

9 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

Since I'm not a monitor buff, is this comparable?

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/3fBTwP/dell-u3219q-315-3840x2160-60-hz-monitor-u3219q

The UP series is segmented higher than the U series. I don't believe there is a replacement for the UP3216Q yet, so that is still the flagship 4k60 display from Dell. The UP panels typically have a bigger gamut and are true 10bit, compared to the 8bit + FRC for the U panels.

 

However, I don't know enough about the U3219Q panel, or the iMac one, for that matter, to make a judgment either way.

[Fasauceome]

Just now, badreg said:

However, I don't know enough about the U3219Q panel, or the iMac one, for that matter, to make a judgment either way.

That's the part that's tough for me as well, can't pin down specs that are easy to understand. But I do know this:

 

A lot of the people I've talked to about switching to a PC from a Mac don't much mind losing the screen, and even the aforementioned features like bluetooth, wifi, built in speakers, etc, don't seem to matter much, just the switch to Windows from MacOS is the main hitch. The video editor for my dad's company was not concerned with retina displays, or bells and whistles, made him one with an i9 and it works great for him.

 

If you had to recommend a 4k monitor to an editor on a budget, what would you suggest in the $500 price range?

[happymax1212]

First of all, that screen you chose isn't 5k and has nowhere near the pixel density of a 5k iMac. 

Second, the qlc sata ssd... Seriously, did you really check what Apple put in iMacs? At least a nvme ssd with TLC nand, please...

By the way, iMac is an AIO. It takes up less space and looks clean on the desk. There're people who do need these kind of machines rather than PCs in cases and are willing to pay for that. There's no point convincing everyone to avoid Macs and switch to PC. 

[Fasauceome]

5 minutes ago, happymax1212 said:

First of all, that screen you chose isn't 5k and has nowhere near the pixel density of a 5k iMac. 

I specced this system against a 4k imac, that's the price on apples website in my screenshot.

 

6 minutes ago, happymax1212 said:

Second, the qlc sata ssd... Seriously, did you really check what Apple put in iMacs? At least a nvme ssd with TLC nand, please.

Not the one I specced. Also, it was just a quick grab. A better SSDs still comes way below Mac price.

 

6 minutes ago, happymax1212 said:

By the way, iMac is an AIO. It takes up less space and looks clean on the desk. There're people who do need these kind of machines rather than PCs in cases and are willing to pay for that.

Feature comparison isn't directly comparable, there are things the PC has that the Mac doesn't as well, and an ITX system would be fine for a similar price anyways.

 

7 minutes ago, happymax1212 said:

There's no point convincing everyone to avoid Macs and switch to PC

I build PCs for money, so there's certainly a point for me.

[BigDamn]

5 minutes ago, happymax1212 said:

First of all, that screen you chose isn't 5k and has nowhere near the pixel density of a 5k iMac. 

Second, the qlc sata ssd... Seriously, did you really check what Apple put in iMacs? At least a nvme ssd with TLC nand, please...

By the way, iMac is an AIO. It takes up less space and looks clean on the desk. There're people who do need these kind of machines rather than PCs in cases and are willing to pay for that. There's no point convincing everyone to avoid Macs and switch to PC. 

Who here is telling people to avoid Macs? I mean, I would have if I was a little earlier, but still.

 

You're missing the point here. OP is saying that Linus's iMac equivalent PC builds seem shockingly high to what he's able to build himself. OP designed a more powerful rig at a significantly lower cost. Throw in a 5k display, TLC nand SSD, and whatever else you want and it's still going to be cheaper. Less of a knock on Apple, and more questioning Linus's PC builds.

[happymax1212]

Just now, fasauceome said:

I specced this system against a 4k imac, that's the price on apples website in my screenshot.

 

Not the one I specced. Also, it was just a quick grab. A better SSDs still comes way below Mac price.

 

Feature comparison isn't directly comparable, there are things the PC has that the Mac doesn't as well, and an ITX system would be fine for a similar price anyways.

 

I build PCs for money, so there's certainly a point for me.

A 4k iMac still gets the better screen. The screen actually hat more pixels (4096 x 2304) than a ordinary 4k uhd display. And of course, more pixel density and better color accuracy. 

And since you build PCs for money, your statements cannot be considered objective. You can find many reasons to go for a PC, while Apple can find many reasons to go for a Mac. 

[Fasauceome]

6 minutes ago, happymax1212 said:

A 4k iMac still gets the better screen. The screen actually hat more pixels (4096 x 2304) than a ordinary 4k uhd display. And of course, more pixel density and better color accuracy. 

And since you build PCs for money, your statements cannot be considered objective. You can find many reasons to go for a PC, while Apple can find many reasons to go for a Mac. 

Not sure about the color accuracy, give a breakdown of the monitor I chose and the pro retina to show how the apple is better. Also, the pixel density hardly matters if the screen is only 21.5 inches.

 

My statements are absolutely objective, I'm arguing that the horsepower of the Mac is surpassed by a desktop diy PC at a given price. The entire purpose of this topic is to talk about price to performance, not features and not ecosystem.

[LAwLz]

It depends on how you're comparing.

If you want feature parity and overall as similar parts as possible then the price will end up being the same.

If you only look at performance in some particular program then you can get a much cheaper PC which will perform the same. It won't be as good as the iMac at everything, and it might not be able to do all the same things though.

 

 

But something I don't get with your comparsion is why you're comparing the old, 4K Mac. I can't even find that on their website anymore. It's all 5K Macs now. You also seem to have picked the most expensive options, even though it is a far better idea to buy for example the lowest RAM capacity from Apple and then upgrade the RAM yourself with some ordered from Amazon or Newegg.

[Fasauceome]

3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

But something I don't get with your comparsion is why you're comparing the old, 4K Mac. I can't even find that on their website anymore. It's all 5K Macs now. You also seem to have picked the most expensive options, even though it is a far better idea to buy for example the lowest RAM capacity from Apple and then upgrade the RAM yourself with some ordered from Amazon or Newegg

I googled iMac 2019 and went to the first store page on Apple's website that came up, that's all I did. And yeah I always compare against the most expensive, I often run into people who want those models.

[Feranoks]

It seems that people keep comming back to the screen. It kind off proofs the OP's point... it seems that the only reason people even buy a Mac is the screen. And while the screen is important, saying that you have to find include an exact stand alone replica of that screen is pretty BS. 5K retina displays (or even the 4K'ish' lower speced apple ones) are rare because mostly only Apple uses them. They are simply not the standard when you look at monitors. And buying something that isn't standard comes at a premium even if the product itself isn't worth it.

The point is that when you take the screen out of the equation (wich is hard to do since Apple DOESN'T let you) it's not unreasonable that you can create a more powerfull system for less money.

[Electronics Wizardy]

14 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

Not sure about the color accuracy, give a breakdown of the monitor I chose and the pro retina to show how the apple is better. Also, the pixel density hardly matters if the screen is only 21.5 inches.

 

My statements are absolutely objective, I'm arguing that the horsepower of the Mac is surpassed by a desktop diy PC at a given price. The entire purpose of this topic is to talk about price to performance, not features and not ecosystem.

why not use a monitor with the exact same panel as they use in the imac?

 

https://www.lg.com/us/monitors/lg-22MD4KA-B-4k-uhd-led-monitor

[Fasauceome]

1 minute ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

why not use a monitor with the exact same panel as they use in the imac?

Cause I'm a monitor noob and don't know what I'm looking for lol. But as for the basics, is it color calibrated as well as the retinas or at least really well? For people who like the prettiness of iMac displays it can be tricky to nail down a good enough standin.

[happymax1212]

8 minutes ago, BigDamn said:

Who here is telling people to avoid Macs? I mean, I would have if I was a little earlier, but still.

 

You're missing the point here. OP is saying that Linus's iMac equivalent PC builds seem shockingly high to what he's able to build himself. OP designed a more powerful rig at a significantly lower cost. Throw in a 5k display, TLC nand SSD, and whatever else you want and it's still going to be cheaper. Less of a knock on Apple, and more questioning Linus's PC builds.

I believe Linus already talked about this way back in the iMac Pro video. He was trying to make a build as similar to the iMac as possible. Of course you can achieve better performance with less money by giving up feautures or parts you don't need, but someone will need the feature you gave up, and that's why these people will go for the iMac. Computers are really tools, getting the right tool for the right workflow is the key. For some people, Mac is the right tools, and for others, PCs are. The computer should serve its purpose well, that's what matters. 

[Electronics Wizardy]

1 minute ago, fasauceome said:

Cause I'm a monitor noob and don't know what I'm looking for lol. But as for the basics, is it color calibrated as well as the retinas or at least really well? For people who like the prettiness of iMac displays it can be tricky to nail down a good enough standin.

its the same panel, looks a bit different as it doesn't have glass on the front. IDk if calibration was a bit different, but should look similar.

 

Also the whole comparison is kinda pointless cause it not a mac. Some people want a mac and you can't get one unless you buy it from apple.