What does Linus use for his "comparison" to iMacs?

[LAwLz]

18 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

I googled iMac 2019 and went to the first store page on Apple's website that came up, that's all I did. And yeah I always compare against the most expensive, I often run into people who want those models. 

Weird. I went to Apple's website just now and I can only find 5K iMacs. Maybe you picked a bad time to do the comparison.

 

Anyway, you have to do a realistic comparison. If your argument is that someone will pay 200 dollars for 8GB of extra preinstalled RAM then that person is clearly not going to build their own PC. So if you make that argument then you have to compare the iMac to prebuilt from for example Dell or HP.

But if we are realistic about this and assume for example a person from this forum were looking into buying a computer, what would their money get them if they went with an iMac vs building their own? If we look at it from that perspective the comparsion becomes a lot more fair and relevant.

 

 

Let's say I need a new computer and I got 3000 dollars to spend.

What setup will I get if I blow those 3000 dollars on an iMac, vs building a PC?

 

 

Here is the iMac setup:

• 27" 5K monitor
• i9-9900K
• 32GB of RAM (bought separately for 143 dollars)
• Radeon pro 575X
• 512GB NVMe SSD
• Magic Mouse 2 and Apple keyboard
• All the other stuff like Thunderbolt, it's an all-in-one, speakers, webcam, etc.

[happymax1212]

4 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

Cause I'm a monitor noob and don't know what I'm looking for lol. But as for the basics, is it color calibrated as well as the retinas or at least really well? For people who like the prettiness of iMac displays it can be tricky to nail down a good enough standin.

LG Ultrafines use the same panel as iMacs. It comes in either 4k or 5k. 

[Fasauceome]

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

Anyway, you have to do a realistic comparison. If your argument is that someone will pay 200 dollars for 8GB of extra preinstalled RAM then that person is clearly not going to build their own PC. So if you make that argument then you have to compare the iMac to prebuilt from for example Dell or HP.

I build PCs for an 8% rate so it would be quite competitive against these iMacs. Outside the product realm, however, this topic was created because I specifically was wondering about why Linus compares the way he does, or rather, with the products he does. From what I can see, his DIY comparisons involve more expensive monitors than they need to compare to iMacs and that just puts the iMac far more on par with the prebuilt.

[Fasauceome]

1 minute ago, happymax1212 said:

LG Ultrafines use the same panel as iMacs. It comes in either 4k or 5k. 

That's not bad at all, $700 from Best buy for me

Pardon the screen dimmer filter, it's dark out.

[Pasi123]

20 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

But something I don't get with your comparsion is why you're comparing the old, 4K Mac. I can't even find that on their website anymore. It's all 5K Macs now

There is new 4K iMacs.

 

[LAwLz]

4 minutes ago, Pasi123 said:

There is new 4K iMacs.

 

Oh I didn't realize he was comparing the 21.5" version. Sorry, I'm dumb.

That version have always had worse value than the 27" version so I think it's more fair to look at the 27" iMac. I mean, if you're spending over 3K+ on a computer why not get the 27"?

[happymax1212]

If you are discussing pure price to performance, of course you'd go for a PC. 

And not even your build. One can save more money by: 

Use H110 boards that come with ddr3 sockets, flash the modded bios. 

Use ddr3 Rams

Use leaked i9 9900k qs chips which delivers the same performance

And there're really many people doing this. Of course they won't need a Mac, and they are not Apple's targeted customers. 

[Fasauceome]

2 minutes ago, happymax1212 said:

If you are discussing pure price to performance, of course you'd go for a PC. 

And not even your build. One can save more money by: 

Use H110 boards that come with ddr3 sockets, flash the modded bios. 

Use ddr3 Rams

Use leaked i9 9900k qs chips which delivers the same performance

And there're really many people doing this. Of course they won't need a Mac, and they are not Apple's targeted customers. 

Missing the point man.

[happymax1212]

2 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

Missing the point man.

Thought your point was price to performance, sorry that I misunderstood.  

23 minutes ago, happymax1212 said:

I believe Linus already talked about this way back in the iMac Pro video. He was trying to make a build as similar to the iMac as possible. Of course you can achieve better performance with less money by giving up features or parts you don't need, but someone will need the feature you gave up, and that's why these people will go for the iMac. Computers are really tools, getting the right tool for the right workflow is the key. For some people, Mac is the right tool, and for others, PCs are. The computer should serve its purpose well, that's what matters. 

 

[Fasauceome]

2 minutes ago, PacketMan said:

Having all these features in a super compact build (no bigger than the screen itself) is an ultra pro imho, but the thermal solution is too weak so I don't know how well the 6 cores i7 would do... You could try and update the list for a ITX build with similar specs, get nice speakers (and small enough), a similar monitor even if it's half the price, and maybe those Logitech content-creator mouse and keyboard

I too think Apple is over-overpriced but for what you pay, you get a really cool machine (unlike the current MacBooks Pro)

I considered an ITX build but similar cost really for similar features

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	Intel - Core i9-9900K 3.6 GHz 8-Core Processor	$474.99 @ Walmart
CPU Cooler	Corsair - H60 (2018) 57.2 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler	$49.99 @ Newegg
Motherboard	ASRock - Z390M-ITX/ac Mini ITX LGA1151 Motherboard	$123.98 @ Newegg
Memory	Corsair - Vengeance LPX 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-2666 Memory	$144.99 @ Newegg Business
Storage	Samsung - 970 Evo 1 TB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive	$263.69 @ Amazon
Video Card	Zotac - GeForce RTX 2060 6 GB GAMING Video Card	$349.99 @ Newegg
Case	Silverstone - Sugo SG13B Mini ITX Tower Case	$50.50 @ B&H
Power Supply	Corsair - CXM 550 W 80+ Bronze Certified Semi-Modular ATX Power Supply	$59.89 @ OutletPC
Operating System	Microsoft - Windows 10 Home OEM 64-bit	$99.39 @ OutletPC
Monitor	Dell - U3219Q 31.5" 3840x2160 60 Hz Monitor	$819.99 @ B&H
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total (before mail-in rebates)	$2477.40
	Mail-in rebates	-$40.00
	Total	$2437.40
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2019-05-06 03:49 EDT-0400

I specifically was wondering about the LTT method of Mac comparison though, since they go straight for performance per dollar but seem to overpay on the PC end of things, which gets you more like features on a motherboard or quieter cooling, but it doesn't come into play in Linus' discussion on the different aspects of the PC and the iMac.

[happymax1212]

2 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

I specifically was wondering about the LTT method of Mac comparison though, since they go straight for performance per dollar but seem to overpay on the PC end of things, which gets you more like features on a motherboard or quieter cooling, but it doesn't come into play in Linus' discussion on the different aspects of the PC and the iMac.

Maybe because Linus wasn't actually going straight for performance per dollar. 

They did come up with two PC builds in the iMac Pro video, and they did achieve better performance with less bucks. They just didn't do so for the iMac 2019 video. 

[Fasauceome]

2 minutes ago, happymax1212 said:

Maybe because Linus wasn't actually going straight for performance per dollar

How's that? In the 2019 vid they only referenced performance per dollar, or at least spec on paper per dollar, but that's what I'm getting at. Then they just compared raw performance.

[happymax1212]

30 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

How's that? In the 2019 vid they only referenced performance per dollar, or at least spec on paper per dollar, but that's what I'm getting at. Then they just compared raw performance.

He said "compared to building your own comparable desktop setup with the SAME FEATURES." Seems you missed something in the video. 

[mr moose]

If 27" 5K is a problem why not add the Dell 27 Ultra HD 5K Monitor - UP2715K to the comparison PC instead?

 

it's only $900 on amazon.  At least then those who want the 5k part get a closer match.

 

 

 

[dgsddfgdfhgs]

I sense some politics   ads/ sponsor issue here.

Obviously he can pick random parts at better for mac and much cheaper, but that would sure piss apple off so...

[LAwLz]

36 minutes ago, mr moose said:

If 27" 5K is a problem why not add the Dell 27 Ultra HD 5K Monitor - UP2715K to the comparison PC instead?

 

it's only $900 on amazon.  At least then those who want the 5k part get a closer match.

Worth noting that it is 900 dollars for second hand on Amazon, and I don't think it's fair to compare a brand new Apple product vs a second hand one when comparing prices.

The 5K Dell monitor was around 1600 dollars back when it was in stock.

[mr moose]

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

Worth noting that it is 900 dollars for second hand on Amazon, and I don't think it's fair to compare a brand new Apple product vs a second hand one when comparing prices.

The 5K Dell monitor was around 1600 dollars back when it was in stock.

Good point.  I didn't see that.

 

 

[BigDamn]

1 hour ago, happymax1212 said:

He said "compared to building your own comparable desktop setup with the SAME FEATURES." Seems you missed something in the video. 

What features is he missing? Keyboard, mouse, wireless adapter? What would that cost together, like $150? Still cheaper.

[happymax1212]

28 minutes ago, BigDamn said:

What features is he missing? Keyboard, mouse, wireless adapter? What would that cost together, like $150? Still cheaper.

You didn't get my point. Some people just need the whole "Apple" experience, some people need to program using Xcode or edit in FCP, and some people need to use attach thunderbolt devices, or maybe someone just want to keep his desk tidy... There're many reasons and scenarios where someone would want an iMac. and there's nothing wrong about it, as long as the computer does the job. 

By the way, thunderbolt can cost a lot. 

[BigDamn]

35 minutes ago, happymax1212 said:

You didn't get my point. Some people just need the whole "Apple" experience, some people need to program using Xcode or edit in FCP, and some people need to use attach thunderbolt devices, or maybe someone just want to keep his desk tidy... There're many reasons and scenarios where someone would want an iMac. and there's nothing wrong about it, as long as the computer does the job. 

By the way, thunderbolt can cost a lot. 

As others have mentioned, your point doesn't pertain to this topic.

[LAwLz]

Here is my comparison.

 

iMac build:

Monitor - 27", 5K monitor.

CPU - i9-9900K processor

RAM - 2x16GB of RAM (bought separately)

GPU - Radeon Pro 575X with 4GB of GDDR5 memory

Storage - 1TB SSD

Mouse - Magic Mouse 2

Keyboard - Magic Keyboard

Connectivity - 1GbE, 802.11ac, Bluetooth 4.2, Thunderbolt 3 (2 ports), USB (10Gbps, 4 ports)

Peripherals - webcam, speakers, card reader, microphone.

Total cost: $3342

 

 

 

Build by me (please remember that I have been out of the building scene for a while):

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: Intel - Core i9-9900K 3.6 GHz 8-Core Processor  ($494.79 @ OutletPC)
CPU Cooler: Noctua - NH-D15 82.5 CFM CPU Cooler  ($89.85 @ OutletPC)
Motherboard: Asus - TUF Z390-PLUS GAMING (WI-FI) ATX LGA1151 Motherboard  ($169.43 @ Newegg Business)
Memory: Corsair - Vengeance LPX 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-2400 Memory  ($142.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Samsung - 970 Evo Plus 1 TB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive  ($247.95 @ Newegg)
Video Card: Gigabyte - GeForce RTX 2070 8 GB WINDFORCE Video Card  ($454.99 @ Newegg)
Case: Corsair - 450D ATX Mid Tower Case  ($109.99 @ Amazon)
Power Supply: EVGA - SuperNOVA G3 750 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply  ($114.09 @ OutletPC)
Operating System: Microsoft - Windows 10 Pro OEM 64-bit  ($129.89 @ OutletPC)
Keyboard: Corsair - K70 RGB MK.2 Wired Gaming Keyboard  ($99.99 @ Amazon)
Mouse: Logitech - G502 Proteus Spectrum Wired Optical Mouse  ($45.00 @ Walmart)
Speakers: Logitech - Z213 7 W 2.1ch Speakers  ($24.99 @ Newegg)
Other: Samsung Chg70 27-Inch Screen LED-lit Monitor (LC27HG70QQNXZA)  ($469.99 @ Amazon)
Other: Samsung Chg70 27-Inch Screen LED-lit Monitor (LC27HG70QQNXZA)  ($469.99 @ Amazon)
Other: Logitech C920S Pro HD Webcam with Privacy Shutter  ($69.99 @ Amazon)
Total: $3134
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available

 

 

I did cheat quite a bit by not including a 5K monitor. Those things are expensive as balls. Instead I included two really good 27", 2560x1440 monitors. It would have been possible to get the ~1600 dollar 5K monitor from Dell if I downgraded a bunch of stuff, but overall I think this build is much better than if I had done that. Overall, the cost came out pretty much the same.

 

Benefits of the PC:

• Will most likely run cooler and quieter when stressed.
• Has more room for expansion in the future, as well as the parts being reusable for future builds.
• Much better video card (Nvidia 2070 vs AMD 575X)
• In my opinion, better keyboard and mouse (even went for a mechanical keyboard with cherry MX browns).
• Better webcam and speakers.
• HDR, curved, 144Hz monitors with FreeSync is more appealing than a higher resolution one to some. Especially 2 of them.

 

Benefits of the iMac:

• The 5K screen is more appealing than the dual 27" monitors with much lower resolution to some people. The color accuracy out of the box might also be better with the iMac.
• Takes up less room. It's an all-in-one vs separate midi tower and monitor.
• Thunderbolt, if that's your thing.
• Stuff related to MacOS, but I think this was suppose to be a strictly hardware comparison.

[Fasauceome]

3 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

Build by me (please remember that I have been out of the building scene for a while)

Pretty alright, still cheaper than the mac and yet more horsepower, including things like higher bandwidth vram which appeals a lot to video editors. It even has room to reasonably shrink the cost, including cheaper windows key and lower wattage + cost PSU (G series from EVGA is a little overpriced right now)

[LAwLz]

9 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

Pretty alright, still cheaper than the mac and yet more horsepower, including things like higher bandwidth vram which appeals a lot to video editors. It even has room to reasonably shrink the cost, including cheaper windows key and lower wattage + cost PSU (G series from EVGA is a little overpriced right now) 

Was editing my comment while you wrote that. I added some pros and cons at the end.

 

At the end of the day, I don't think the iMac is that overpriced. Personally I would pick the PC build I posted, but 5K resolution costs a small fortune, and for some things (editing 4K video at full playback size) is a feature many people want. I am not one of those people so I would rather take the higher refresh rate and HDR.

 

It is possible to cheap out and get much better price:performance than the iMac. But you have to do some pretty stupid stuff to get there, like pairing a 500 dollar CPU with a sub-100 dollar motherboard and get a really crappy case. Nobody should do that.

 

 

The iMac is overpriced if you only look at performance. But compared to a well rounded PC build it isn't that overpriced, even if we just look at the hardware without taking into account "but I like MacOS" and stuff like that.

[Fasauceome]

5 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

It is possible to cheap out and get much better price:performance than the iMac. But you have to do some pretty stupid stuff to get there, like pairing a 500 dollar CPU with a sub-100 dollar motherboard and get a really crappy case. Nobody should do that.

You really don't, there are non crappy $70 cases and non crappy $120 motherboards that would chop a lot off the price tag.

 

Not to mention, if you want low volume, ITX is perfectly viable, especially with an 8 core limit.

[RoseLuck462]

You’re also not getting the ecosystem by building your own pc.