Tek Syndicate Audio Myths with @MayflowerElectronics

[Advent]

Again, half truths. There's a big difference between saying "you don't need a soundcard, your on-board is good enough" and "you will not notice a difference between soundcard and on-board".

 

If you don't notice a difference then you don't need it. How is that a half-truth?

Are you saying that if you don't notice a difference that you should get a sound card anyhow?

What part of "sound cards are only good if you are doing  audio engineering/editing or you have high impedance headphones" is incorrect besides the fact that it doesn't mention class of motherboard? If you have a mid-high end motherboard you do not need a sound card. This is especially true of high end motherboards ($400+)

The class of motherboard and differences was mentioned in the same post via this comment - "Most of the people who see no difference have mid-high end motherboards with excellent onboard audio". So if you have a mid-high end motherboard and notice no difference between your already included in the purchase price onboard audio and a separately purchased sound card then why would you need a sound card?

Both those quotations come from the exact same original post I made.

 

 

Only noticed this edit now:

Why wouldn't it? Of course it would.

You will note that he has gone through many mics since he started making videos and originally he did have a sound card in his system. If the white noise is on all of his videos then it probably isn't a mic issue. If his original sound card didn't fix the issue he either had a shitty sound card OR there are other factors at play.

[Canoas]

-snip-

There's no point in arguing with you anymore. You won't understand it no matter how many times I explain it.

 

 

And are you sure the white noise is present in all of his videos even with other mics and soundcards?

[Advent]

There's no point in arguing with you anymore. You won't understand it no matter how many times I explain it.

 

 

And are you sure the white noise is present in all of his videos even with other mics and soundcards?

Pretty sure he has used other mics. He even says so himself. Also he has talked about the sound cards he has used before.

Also his videos from at least 1 year ago + have the same white noise (fan wash). His videos from 5 years ago have the same problem.

 

Here is the same white noise (it is fan wash), the only difference is the mic he is using and room acoustics.

 

(2 years ago)

 

Videos from this year demonstrating the fan wash (continual issue in his videos) -

(1 week ago)

(3 days ago)

Huge difference between his videos from 5 years-3 days ago and the Audiophile video. Nothing in his setup has changed in 1 week. So it can't be his onboard audio and it can't be the mic unless one of those 2 things is failing or had some kind of interference issues suddenly.

Personally I think he put the hiss in there to fuck with people. But that is just me. It is either that, his mic has issues, or it is picking up the background fan noise in an odd way.

But the fact remains that all of his videos exhibit fan wash issues. I'm pretty positive that the hiss in the background of his Audiophile video is fan noise. It sounds like one of this big box fans or AC.

[afa7336]

we're giving you the data that supports the argument, the data you are asking for does not exist.  Is it wrong to voice an opinion based on several small tests that are supported by a large wealth of scientific knowledge?

 

When you are telling people on a huge scale that they are receiving a placebo effect, it is wrong. Remember throughout history we see small studies be proclaimed as truth only to be wrong. We're seeing it even today with Global Warming and the issues surrounding it.

 

 

He ran his own blind test with Logan, there have been few posts recently of people reverting back to onboard from STX's claiming no change in SQ,  a few of us have even done a few blind tests at home, which is why I have a box somewhere with sound-cards in it and none in my pc. 

 

How was this test run? Is this the only test run by Mayflower to tell us that we are receiving a placebo effect? One subject, as I am sure you are aware doesn't mean jack shit. It'd make the argument have a ton of holes. The flip side is that you yourself could actually be receiving a placebo effect, and not I. You read about it, and in your mind you wanted to believe its true, and so it became true.

 

 

So to sum up:

 

-no large scale peer reviewed study supporting placebo specifically for sound solutions.

-small blind tests that support the science.

-massive wealth of evidence to support the opinion

-and lastly a little bit of anecdotal support.

 

How were these blind tests done? If you're the one changing things around, there is NO way it was a blind test by yourself. A blind test, as I am sure you are aware, is one where the subjects doesn't know what source he is listening to. It is tested over several subjects that are objective and its controlled. It is tested over every genre of music to get the most wide ranging data possible. Any other way and you've fucked the results all to hell. 

 

No there isn't a massive wealth of evidence. What you've shown, I could easily use to flip it and say YOU are receiving a placebo effect not I. I've kept my mouth shut because the information is for me, I want the truth about myself, as we should all.

 

Anecdotal is BS and you know it. "The World is flat" ring a bell by chance?

 

I didn't make the claim of there being a placebo effect, Mayflower did. If Mayflower wants to show any evidence he has, great. If not, fine, I can't make up MY MIND on this issue. But its Mayflowers tests I want to know about and since you say there is non, its shitty that he is telling me and others that there is a placebo effect when he has NO EVIDENCE to back it up. Evidence being actual tests showing that there is no difference between Motherboard audio and Soundcards. I don't know your hearing and you don't know mine. How can I know if what you observe is what I would observe? Does it make him wrong? Nope. Does it make him right? Nope. How can I decide what is fact or fiction without it. You seem to not understand the need for hard data. If you can work like that cool, but I can't I am sorry.

 

*Oh and him being in the business? That shouldn't be taken into account, not on this forum, based on the shit I have had said to me on subjects on the business I have been in.

[mr moose]

Wall off almost irrelevant text.

 

really?  what do you want?  there is not enough logic to your post that I can adequately respond.

 

 

All I get out of that is that you don't understand the science or the arguments and for whatever reason you are just going to keep going until everyone gives up. Have you just got an issue because you saw the last wan show where Linus vented about a particular thread and thought you'd you come here and play all superior?  Your arguments are going around in circles and you keep dodging the fact that the video is an opinion based on experiences and supporting evidence. 

[mr moose]

See you can go on and on, but you haven't produced the testing data used by Mayflower for Mayflower to say that there is a placebo effect going on between Motherboards vs. Soundcards. I haven't seen it, and its obvious you haven't either and are compensating for it. If someone claims what Mayflower is claiming, and I am experiencing something different and he says its because its a placebo, why can't I see the data leading to this? Should I be like you and just believe everything without checking myself, become a minion? I've been nice, but you've done pissed me off now. You're acting like a robot fighting a battle for Mayflower, when all I fucking asked was for his data. OMG, someone wants data, kill him! So fine, have a nice one. Mayflower, if you want to respond, I'll talk to you about your data, my experiences, etc. but no one else since they gotta be fucking asses around here. There has to be strong data for someone to tell ME I am experiencing something I am not really experiencing. You don't get what I am saying, so peace.

 

You have been told from the get go that the data you are asking for does not exist,  but you still keep asking. 

 

you have been given all the evidence to support the very real effect of placebo on the auditory system, it is there in black and white, peer reviewed and ready for you to read.  Do you honestly think the placebo effect does not apply to a sound card or USB dac but that it applies to everything else?  it exists and unless you carry out a true blind test you WILL be subject to the placebo effect, its not an opinion or an assumption it is a fact, a cold hard undeniable fact.

[TofuAce]

Video documentation of the last 24 hours within the thread.

 

 

 

[Shikarikato]

What thread would that be (Clue me in please, I honestly don't know what the hell you are talking about. Is this some conspiracy you are dreaming up to justify being a total fucking asshole? I think so honestly.)? I actually haven't watched the WAN show for about a month or two to be honest. Neither live nor on Youtube but alas crazy people will be crazy. But since you can't provide data, how can I judge something. Would you ask Linus for data if he said the GTX 770 TI destroyed the R9 290x or would you believe him outright like a good little dog following his master? How about if he said that AMD sucks and needs to die for x reasons and Nvidia rules would you ask him for data to back it up? See you can go on and on, but you haven't produced the testing data used by Mayflower for Mayflower to say that there is a placebo effect going on between Motherboards vs. Soundcards. I haven't seen it, and its obvious you haven't either and are compensating for it. If someone claims what Mayflower is claiming, and I am experiencing something different and he says its because its a placebo, why can't I see the data leading to this? Should I be like you and just believe everything without checking myself, become a minion? I've been nice, but you've done pissed me off now. You're acting like a robot fighting a battle for Mayflower, when all I fucking asked was for his data. OMG, someone wants data, kill him! So fine, have a nice one. Mayflower, if you want to respond, I'll talk to you about your data, my experiences, etc. but no one else since they gotta be fucking asses around here. There has to be strong data for someone to tell ME I am experiencing something I am not really experiencing. You don't get what I am saying, so peace.

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html 

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/04/odac-released.html

Not necessarily the same, but it helps with your, " hurr hurr placebo isn't in affect when you're talking about audio ", statement.

[afa7336]

http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/04/dishonesty-of-sighted-audio-product.html

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2012/04/odac-released.html

Not necessarily the same, but it helps with your, " hurr hurr placebo isn't in affect when you're talking about audio ", statement.

 

Thats NOT the information I want. *bangs head* I am looking for a direct test information done by Mayflower, since it was HIS words! Man, do people ever read what you type around here or are you guys just dumb as a doornail and can't read!

[Vague]

 

This thread..

[afa7336]

 

By the way, just an FYI, here is my question I asked.

 

"How many test subjects did you have, what was the ambient background noise, did they watch you change connections or was it a true blind test, what specific hardware did you test (to a lesser extent, how many multiple motherboards, usb dacs, soundcards, headphones), what was the makeup of the subjects (Male/Female, Age), how was their hearing tested prior to the test? Details like that, as much information as you can supply, since its gotta be a scientific test to back up your claim."

 

Now what is interesting is you jackasses are saying this data doesn't exist... GG for that. You've actually just called Logan and Mayflower flat out lairs on this thread. Wow. That is sad. All I wanted to know was how the tests were done. Interesting, I'd like an answer from them now, why they lied saying there were tests when you are saying they didn't do any. Or is it you that is a lair. :-) Have a nice day smartasses, it was fun doing business with you. Maybe next time you'll understand keeping your mouth shut when you don't have the answer. Smarts to be smart.

 

Oh and misinformation, still haven't said what it was. Another lie I take it?

[ShearMe]

By the way, just an FYI, here is my question I asked.

 

"How many test subjects did you have, what was the ambient background noise, did they watch you change connections or was it a true blind test, what specific hardware did you test (to a lesser extent, how many multiple motherboards, usb dacs, soundcards, headphones), what was the makeup of the subjects (Male/Female, Age), how was their hearing tested prior to the test? Details like that, as much information as you can supply, since its gotta be a scientific test to back up your claim."

 

Now what is interesting is you jackasses are saying this data doesn't exist... GG for that. You've actually just called Logan and Mayflower flat out lairs on this thread. Wow. That is sad. All I wanted to know was how the tests were done. Interesting, I'd like an answer from them now, why they lied saying there were tests when you are saying they didn't do any. Or is it you that is a lair. :-) Have a nice day smartasses, it was fun doing business with you. Maybe next time you'll understand keeping your mouth shut when you don't have the answer. Smarts to be smart.

 

Oh and misinformation, still haven't said what it was. Another lie I take it?

 

http://idc1966.blogspot.com/2011/12/study-of-audiophile-blind-comparison.html

[bowleggedcat]

By the way, just an FYI, here is my question I asked.

 

"How many test subjects did you have, what was the ambient background noise, did they watch you change connections or was it a true blind test, what specific hardware did you test (to a lesser extent, how many multiple motherboards, usb dacs, soundcards, headphones), what was the makeup of the subjects (Male/Female, Age), how was their hearing tested prior to the test? Details like that, as much information as you can supply, since its gotta be a scientific test to back up your claim."

 

Now what is interesting is you jackasses are saying this data doesn't exist... GG for that. You've actually just called Logan and Mayflower flat out lairs on this thread. Wow. That is sad. All I wanted to know was how the tests were done. Interesting, I'd like an answer from them now, why they lied saying there were tests when you are saying they didn't do any. Or is it you that is a lair. :-) Have a nice day smartasses, it was fun doing business with you. Maybe next time you'll understand keeping your mouth shut when you don't have the answer. Smarts to be smart.

 

Oh and misinformation, still haven't said what it was. Another lie I take it?

 

I don't think he ever said there were any actual tests like you were talking about. They showed an example of a blind test in the video. There is a study done like what you are asking about though. @TofuAce pointed it out.

 

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14195

[OddballMV]

Thats NOT the information I want. *bangs head* I am looking for a direct test information done by Mayflower, since it was HIS words! Man, do people ever read what you type around here or are you guys just dumb as a doornail and can't read!

 

Isn't this a bit like saying you don't believe the theory of relativity because you haven't done a test on it yourself. You can take other people's evidence as fact surely?

[ShearMe]

Isn't this a bit like saying you don't believe the theory of relativity because you haven't done a test on it yourself. You can take other people's evidence as fact surely?

 

Oh that's what he was on about.... lel.

[Canoas]

I don't think he ever said there were any actual tests like you were talking about. They showed an example of a blind test in the video. There is a study done like what you are asking about though. @TofuAce pointed it out.

 

http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=14195

 

Isn't this a bit like saying you don't believe the theory of relativity because you haven't done a test on it yourself. You can take other people's evidence as fact surely?

 

Mayflower did some tests with Logan on which they based their statements, it seems to me that afa just wants to know how those tests were performed. It's not something outrageous to ask for I think, it's a pretty simple and straightforward question actually. It shouldn't take more than 2 minutes to answer.

[bowleggedcat]

Mayflower did some tests with Logan on which they based their statements, it seems to me that afa just wants to know how those tests were performed. It's not something outrageous to ask for I think, it's a pretty simple and straightforward question actually. It shouldn't take more than 2 minutes to answer.

 

Well, I think they did it just like they showed on the video maybe? In the post on the forum he said he did some tests afterwords, and I'm assuming he sat away from the computer and had someone else control the music.

[Canoas]

Well, I think they did it just like they showed on the video maybe? In the post on the forum he said he did some tests afterwords, and I'm assuming he sat away from the computer and had someone else control the music.

And there's the problem. He's asking a question that no one else but Mayflower or Logan can answer, yet everyone else is giving opinions as if they mattered. So, if you don't know, why are you trying to answer? This has lasted for several pages now, unless you were there when they did the blind test please do not try to answer.

[Dave :)]

I'm shutting this down. I'm not sure how many of you watched the WAN Show this week; however, i strongly urge you guys to. If only for this part:

 

 

If you don't want to watch it, then i will summarise:

 

- Parts of the forum (particularly Audio Sub-forum) are straying away from the core values of the site (i've highlighted the most important ones). 

 

 

Core Values

Generally speaking, as long as the following rules are met you should never find yourself subject to disciplinary action:

• Ensure a friendly atmosphere to our visitors and forum members.
• Ensure the privacy of our members and that of others.
• Comply with both US and Canadian law
• Encourage responsible use of our forums and discourage activities which disrupt our community and reduce the value of our services to our visitors.
• Encourage the freedom of expression and exchange of information in a mature and responsible manner.
• No "lmgtfy" style posts or demeaning posts targeted at anyone.
• "Don't be a dick" - Wil Wheaton.
• "Be excellent to each other" - Bill and Ted.
• Remember your audience; both present and future.

 

It is threads like this which only go to extend this perception of some members as being elitist, condescending and down right rude. If you don't like someone's opinion, fine - don't agree with them; but by no means start a flame war on who is better, or who knows more. This forum was set up for everyone to have a pleasant experience and at the moment, in this sub-forum at least, this is not being met. The environment here is highly hostile and is not welcoming at all. If someone gets something wrong, don't go out of your way to point it out to boost your own ego; perhaps offer an alternative. This isn't survival of the fittest, it's a forum made for people to come and ask questions and incite mature and well argued discussion, not to get a torrent of abuse thrown at them because of their views, what they bought, or what they do. 

[OddballMV]

Mayflower did some tests with Logan on which they based their statements, it seems to me that afa just wants to know how those tests were performed. It's not something outrageous to ask for I think, it's a pretty simple and straightforward question actually. It shouldn't take more than 2 minutes to answer.

 

I think you can see how that particular test was performed, it was a simple Logan looking away and Tyler A/B-ing the tracks. As I understood it though, that little test was purely to get Logan's opinion on the matter as he likely has never done a proper blind test.. The actual statement from Tyler appeared to have nothing to do with that test, it likely came from his own knowledge from studying at college and the extensive research that has been linked to in this thread already.