Tek Syndicate Audio Myths with @MayflowerElectronics

[EmoRarity]

JJ is very respectful to other companies' products.

 

He focuses on the positive things about his company and his products without attacking or dismissing competing options. He also generally maintains an exemplary level of courtesy and professionalism in his communication whether it's public or private.

 

That's why no one minds what JJ does.

Personally, I like JJ. He is an intelligent man that works hard to be the best he can. But Tyler does the same, with a less tactful approach.

And people don't mind JJ, not because of the man he is, but what he represents, the "golden standard" of the PC world, Asus. 

[fridadecat]

why are we talking about JJ??

the important thing here is if linus thinks thay this video is BS or not.

Linus always recommended sound cards, logan says sound cards are useless shit: that is the question

[RatedBlam]

why are we talking about JJ??

the important thing here is if linus thinks thay this video is BS or not.

Linus always recommended sound cards, logan says sound cards are useless shit: that is the question

Well Linus can learn too.

But Logan or Tyler never said that soundcards should be all sent to the sun. And this video isn't about soundcards either

[LAwLz]

Music is music,  the genre is irrelevant if it is being used to compare two file types.  I suggest you get an education about audio before labeling these a joke.

No it's not. Certain songs gets more butchered by compression than other songs. For example I got a song that I can't hear the difference between FLAC and AAC down to about 200Kbps. I also got some songs where I start hearing the difference below 300Kbps quite easily. The songs you use does matter quite a bit. That's why I used a wide variety of songs in my blind test.

 

 

 

I am not so sure if a blind test by Logan should be used as the be all and end all evidence for anything, ever. I've done a ton of blind tests with people (not just on this forum but several others as well) and some people can in fact hear the difference in certain songs. Most people can't though either because their hearing isn't good enough, or because they don't have good enough equipment. Oh and if you think you should use FLAC because it sounds better then you're missing the point of FLAC. It's good because you can transcode over and over without any loss in quality.

[Phillyphries]

I would love to hear what Linus has to add, or dispute.

[mr moose]

No it's not. Certain songs gets more butchered by compression than other songs. For example I got a song that I can't hear the difference between FLAC and AAC down to about 200Kbps. I also got some songs where I start hearing the difference below 300Kbps quite easily. The songs you use does matter quite a bit. That's why I used a wide variety of songs in my blind test.

 

 

 

Yes, but I was addressing the assumption that because it is 8 bit music it is not suitable for an adequate comparison.  Just because it is called 8 bit music does not necessarily mean it is recorded or restricted to 8 bits.

[smjpl]

Basically back when Linus said that, It was the only advice he could confidently give with the information he had at hand.  In reality no body looks up year old reviews when choosing an SSD or GPU, so why with audio?   People it's time to leave past audio recommendations in the past.

 

People don't look up year old reviews of GPU's or SSD's because the technology is constantly improving. So I ask you, what has changed in the audio world to make those reviews irrelevant?

[mr moose]

People don't look up year old reviews of GPU's or SSD's because the technology is constantly improving. So I ask you, what has changed in the audio world to make those reviews irrelevant?

 

 

onboard audio has improved significantly in the last year. for example if you buy a mobo today it will have sound chip with a minimum SNR of 100dB, compared to the average of 97dB 1 year ago*.  Also external USB dacs and amps have become very affordable.  And of course access to actual tested information that has strengthened some beliefs while dispelling many others.

 

*it should be noted that this is the least important spec that has improved, however its easily referenceable and I don't want to get into the complexities of amp design.

[smjpl]

onboard audio has improved significantly in the last year. for example if you buy a mobo today it will have sound chip with a minimum SNR of 100dB, compared to the average of 97dB 1 year ago*.  Also external USB dacs and amps have become very affordable.  And of course access to actual tested information that has strengthened some beliefs while dispelling many others.

 

*it should be noted that this is the least important spec that has improved, however its easily referenceable and I don't want to get into the complexities of amp design.

 

Has it? So are saying soundcards might have been relevant a year ago but not today? I am using my Z68 mobo (couple of years old now) and I still hear almost no difference between it and my sounndcard. I just like my Auzentech X-Fi Forte because it has a headphone amp.

[mr moose]

Has it? So are saying soundcards might have been relevant a year ago but not today? I am using my Z68 mobo (couple of years old now) and I still hear almost no difference between it and my sounndcard. I just like my Auzentech X-Fi Forte because it has a headphone amp.

 

It's hard to be specific when there are so many different products on market and the requirements change per user.  But in general the onboard audio solution has improved to point were getting a sound card or external device should only be considered where you know absolutely that the onboard won't work (900 ohm headphones for example) and after people have given the onboard a fair crack.

 

Sound cards definitely used to be relevant, in fact 5 years ago I would have said a staple for any real audio setup. However technology has changed that much that they are less relevant in terms of SQ and only really become an option if you have broken onboard sound and you don't want an external device on your desk, or if there are features that you can only get with a sound card (mic in or fancy digital link etc)

[fridadecat]

linus was recommending sound cards less tha a year ago and also i heard him said that sound cards were still much better thar the best onboard sound.

Time goes by and he still isn't saying anything about logan's video. I think that he is trying to avoid the subject.

[mr moose]

linus was recommending sound cards less tha a year ago and also i heard him said that sound cards were still much better thar the best onboard sound.

Time goes by and he still isn't saying anything about logan's video. I think that he is trying to avoid the subject.

 

Are you going to just keep repeating yourself every 6 pages or so?  it's been addressed get over it.

[Advent]

Sound cards used to be a 'must have' back in the day due to shitty onboard audio solutions. Today though we have a wide variety of pretty sweet onboard chips. For most people a sound card is a waste. There are those out there that benefit from one. I'd probably wager that something on the order of 80% of the people do not benefit from sound cards. And yes, a big reason people still buy sound cards is because of the hive mentality that came out of the 'you must have a sound card' haydays of old. If you deviate from this hive mind you are labeled a 'noob', or someone with 'inferior taste'.

I deal with a lot of high end audio equipment in my job (repair). Fancy tube amps and $1000 headphones are usually hype. Just like Beats or the equivalent.

I have 3 pair of $100-250 headphones. They sound better than most headphones well outside that price range. Headphones labeled "Audiophile headphones" scream gimmicks and hype.

Sennheiser HD 280 Pro. (Gaming/Movies).
Audio Technica ATHM50s.(in between).
Beyerdynamic DT770 (Bassy/fun).

 

The only reason you need a Sound card for the most part is if you have high impedance (Ohm) phones and they are severely under driver because of this of if you do some crazy audio design/engineering or professional music production.

[afa7336]

 

-snip-

 

 

Since you are claiming there is a Placebo Effect, I need some hard data from you before you or anyone else (including me) can argue either way. How many test subjects did you have, what was the ambient background noise, did they watch you change connections or was it a true blind test, what specific hardware did you test (to a lesser extent, how many multiple motherboards, usb dacs, soundcards, headphones), what was the makeup of the subjects (Male/Female, Age), how was their hearing tested prior to the test? Details like that, as much information as you can supply, since its gotta be a scientific test to back up your claim.

[Advent]

Since you are claiming there is a Placebo Effect, I need some hard data from you before you or anyone else (including me) can argue either way. How many test subjects did you have, what was the ambient background noise, did they watch you change connections or was it a true blind test, what specific hardware did you test (to a lesser extent, how many multiple motherboards, usb dacs, soundcards, headphones), what was the makeup of the subjects (Male/Female, Age), how was their hearing tested prior to the test? Details like that, as much information as you can supply, since its gotta be a scientific test to back up your claim.

Are you claiming the opposite of what he is claiming? That Sound cards do make a difference? Can you provide a study with the same criteria that you requested from him? While the burden of proof lies on him for the claim of placebo if you make a claim contrary to that I am going to hold you to the same standard you have held him to.

One must be careful not to trap themselves in their own web when asking for various criteria for proof. Those same criteria must then be fulfilled by the party imposing said criteria if they argue against a point.

And as far as I know there is no one who has this kind of data, at least not all of it or in such detail. Which you will more than likely construe as Mayflowers finding being inconclusive and void. Which was probably the whole point behind your statement. To paint what he said as irrelevant.

Seeing as Mayflower works in the industry and you probably do not, their word carries more weight out the door than anything you could possibly say. Also as someone who has a background in HF/RF and EE I have found nothing wrong with what he has said.

[mr moose]

Since you are claiming there is a Placebo Effect, I need some hard data from you before you or anyone else (including me) can argue either way. How many test subjects did you have, what was the ambient background noise, did they watch you change connections or was it a true blind test, what specific hardware did you test (to a lesser extent, how many multiple motherboards, usb dacs, soundcards, headphones), what was the makeup of the subjects (Male/Female, Age), how was their hearing tested prior to the test? Details like that, as much information as you can supply, since its gotta be a scientific test to back up your claim.

 

what specifically do you want to know?

 

is the placebo effect real and can it have a physical effect on our senses causing us to experience a sensation that does not exist?

 

yes:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

 

How visual knowledge alters our auditory perception:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.3758%2FBF03208826

 

Although this one deals primarily with autism, it has a great background on visual integration of auditory processing which uses the same sensory perception as analytical listening.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17683453

 

This along with the stuff in the FAQ will help to explain why what you hear can be an illusion and how our brain can steer us to hear things that we want to hear rather than whats there.

[afa7336]

what specifically do you want to know?

 

is the placebo effect real and can it have a physical effect on our senses causing us to experience a sensation that does not exist?

 

yes:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo

 

How visual knowledge alters our auditory perception:

http://link.springer.com/article/10.3758%2FBF03208826

 

Although this one deals primarily with autism, it has a great background on visual integration of auditory processing which uses the same sensory perception as analytical listening.

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17683453

 

This along with the stuff in the FAQ will help to explain why what you hear can be an illusion and how our brain can steer us to hear things that we want to hear rather than whats there.

 

We all know that the placebo effect is a real thing no one is disputing that. Its why they have blind tests all the time with drugs where one doesn't do anything. The mind works in a funny way. What I am wondering is what testing methods were used in him determining there is a placebo effect going on, re: Soundcards vs. USB Dacs vs. Motherboards.

 

Those are nice links BUT, they have nothing whatsoever to do with what I am asking of Mayflower at all. He made a claim, and all I am is asking for the data he used to come up with this claim.

[afa7336]

Are you claiming the opposite of what he is claiming? That Sound cards do make a difference? Can you provide a study with the same criteria that you requested from him? While the burden of proof lies on him for the claim of placebo if you make a claim contrary to that I am going to hold you to the same standard you have held him to.

One must be careful not to trap themselves in their own web when asking for various criteria for proof. Those same criteria must then be fulfilled by the party imposing said criteria if they argue against a point.

And as far as I know there is no one who has this kind of data, at least not all of it or in such detail. Which you will more than likely construe as Mayflowers finding being inconclusive and void. Which was probably the whole point behind your statement. To paint what he said as irrelevant.

Seeing as Mayflower works in the industry and you probably do not, their word carries more weight out the door than anything you could possibly say. Also as someone who has a background in HF/RF and EE I have found nothing wrong with what he has said.

 

Actually, I personally see a difference myself. I can't provide a study, as one has not been done that I am aware of. But since my experience, and the experience of others, could be classed as Placebo, I'd like to see the hard data that was used to make this statement. To claim something is a Placebo Effect is a huge deal, and as you said yourself the burden of proof IS on him, not me. To make this about me, is kinda stupid and pathetic. He made the statement, not I. If I make a statement like this, by all means, ask me for my hard data.

 

And if you can't, nor can I, come up with a study... if Mayflower is claiming this kind of study, we SHOULD and NEED to see what his methods for testing were and what were the exact results of the study. Just saying there is a Placebo Effect doesn't make it the result. More goes into the result then just a few words.

 

If there is no data, then the claim he made is baseless, as far as I  am concerned. It doesn't matter where he works, or what he does, you can NOT make claims without the data to back it up. Data and results is everything. If I made a claim, for instance, that using 120hz monitor is useless because you really can't perceive the shift from 60-120. Any shift you see is placebo, and provided no data... what would you say? I know there is a real difference, but thats what makes it all the more better for this example actually. People still make the claim, that 120hz isn't something the eye can see or perceive.

 

Like I said, its not to paint his words as irrelevant, its to find out the data behind it. We should all want to know the facts behind a stated test that claims something isn't needed. For instance, if the test was only Logan, and Logan was swapping out card, usb dac and motherboard connections and then they are like see its a placebo. They only used one USB Dac, one Motherboard, and one Soundcard, one subject, AND it wasn't blind then the test isn't enough to pass muster in ANY book. *Example only, and in no way is trying to represent any facts.

[TofuAce]

We all know that the placebo effect is a real thing no one is disputing that. Its why they have blind tests all the time with drugs where one doesn't do anything. The mind works in a funny way. What I am wondering is what testing methods were used in him determining there is a placebo effect going on, re: Soundcards vs. USB Dacs vs. Motherboards.

 

Those are nice links BUT, they have nothing whatsoever to do with what I am asking of Mayflower at all. He made a claim, and all I am is asking for the data he used to come up with this claim.

 

Have you had a chance to read the Audio Board Frequently Asked Questions, Pre-Answered sticky? 

 

As far as I know, There has not been a real scientific paper with real science-level quality of double-blind research that would satisfy requirements needed for a research paper/publishing. When it comes to Soundcards vs. USB Dacs vs. Motherboard built in, that is.

 

Now there is research from neuroscientists, psychoacoustic, psychophysics and I'm sure a variety of other fields I haven't even heard of that are still researching how we perceive stimuli in our world. Obviously science is a progressive march through time rather than, "Well we figured that whole field of study out 100%. Now onto the next field!" (Not that you implied that, I'm speaking in general here.)

 

That being said, there are measurable variables that people here on this board and other places on the internet can list off comparing numbers that can show how marketing can be a lie. (Or at the least, how spending money on a Soundcard might be a waste if you have a modern motherboard with a recent chipset that is just as good.) Much of what we talk about here on the Audio board is more about  human perception and industry marketing rather than individually producing test results that will satisfy a scientific panel at the journal Nature. We have to do the best we can with the information available.

 

This video has Poppy Crum (Neuroscientist), and I will provide a link to a rather soft interview about audio perception from her. Note that she works at Dolby (a Senior Scientist), and the article has mention about new dolby product/technology. @MayflowerElectronics is by far not the first to have their product mentioned in an overview about a topic. (Another side note...  I use to play violin/guitar and I have experienced exactly what she talks about with classical music and pitch.)

 

 

Edit: As @mr moose said in the next post, this video is from Ethan Winer and credit is due where credit is due!

 

"Ethan Winner is a very well respected authority on audio reproduction, recording and live sound."

[mr moose]

We all know that the placebo effect is a real thing no one is disputing that. Its why they have blind tests all the time with drugs where one doesn't do anything. The mind works in a funny way. What I am wondering is what testing methods were used in him determining there is a placebo effect going on, re: Soundcards vs. USB Dacs vs. Motherboards.

 

Those are nice links BUT, they have nothing whatsoever to do with what I am asking of Mayflower at all. He made a claim, and all I am is asking for the data he used to come up with this claim.

But that is the foundation behind why he said what he said.  We know from testing that nearly all sound solutions have flat frequency responses, we also know that most of them have SNR and THD well above discernible levels.  With that in mind, in order to appreciate a difference between two sources that measure virtually identical it has to be within the sensory perception that difference is occurring.  This has been proven with blind testing, people couldn't tell the difference between a mutli thousand dollar top end amp and a $400 cheaparse behringer amp in blind tests:

 

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

 

for pc sound solutions the only human discernible difference many can measure is the output impedance of a headphone amp and the effect that has on headphones.  other than that most people who do not look for a difference between an STX and onboard don't see one.  Which means those that do look for one are more than likely hearing a placebo.

 

 

What other evidence do you need?

 

P.S that video tofuace posted is awesome.  Ethan Winner is a very well respected authority on audio reproduction, recording and live sound.

 

EDIT: I just need to add one caveat, noise floor and interference, these seem to be obnoxious components of many sound solutions, they are not technically the result of a specific form factor but are more prominent in cheaper designs.  That's not to say expensive gear is immune.  But sometimes it's the luck of the draw.

[TofuAce]

  With that in mind, in order to appreciate a difference between two sources that measure virtually identical it has to be within the sensory perception that difference is occurring.  

 

-SNIP-

 

for pc sound solutions the only human discernible difference many can measure is the output impedance of a headphone amp and the effect that has on headphones.  other than that most people who do not look for a difference between an STX and onboard don't see one. 

-SNIP-

 

Reminds me of full spectrum photography. Just like the limitations with our ears (audible), our eyes (visual) can only see part of a spectrum in the wavelength range of light. If we have a camera that can take in visible light and infrared, for example, just looking at the RAW sensor data we will only see visible light and not near infrared (Whether the screen monitor can display infrared doesn't matter when we are using our own eyes)

 

Now we have PROCESSING that can show us a representation of near infrared into an image our eyes CAN see, but make no mistake we are not modifying our eyes to see something they could not before. We are just linking visual cues to invisible wavelengths. (This is why we can get astrophotography out of an X-ray, Infrared or Radio Telescope.) Actually changing the colors around can bring out additional contrast and hidden detail too. In other words, the colors you see from an infrared image are not necessarily the only colors that could been chosen to represent. Perhaps just the best colors to provide the most stark contrast for detail.

 

I would assume we could link an audible cue to an inaudible frequency... but we have no need for it in music. Regardless, that isn't the point.

 

The point being for others out there, is that we are flawed beings. We can not perceive everything that is available in the universe. Just like how light can fall out of our perception, so too can sound resolution and frequency. 

[mr moose]

 

The point being for others out there, is that we are flawed beings. We can not perceive everything that is available in the universe. Just like how light can fall out of our perception, so too can sound resolution and frequency. 

Not only that but the springer link in post 191 proves that visual stimulus can trick our brains into changing the perceived direction of sound. this means that if a sound is played to the right of a person and a flash light is turned on from the left, that person can actually hear the sound from the left even though it is physically coming from the right. This is how fickle our auditory sense is, especially if we have conscious knowledge pertaining to the nature of what we are hearing (like the source or playback device).

[TofuAce]

Not only that but the springer link in post 191 proves that visual stimulus can trick our brains into changing the perceived direction of sound. this means that if a sound is played to the right of a person and a flash light is turned on from the left, that person can actually hear the sound from the left even though it is physically coming from the right. This is how fickle our auditory sense is, especially if we have conscious knowledge pertaining to the nature of what we are hearing (like the source or playback device).

 

Woah cool!

 

[fridadecat]

Are you going to just keep repeating yourself every 6 pages or so?  it's been addressed get over it.

it hasn't been addressed. Quote linus if it has.

[TofuAce]

it hasn't been addressed. Quote linus if it has.

 

Here is one explaining how he has switched from ASUS Xonar Essence One to the O2/ODac.

(Side note: Even Linus himself would want people to see his words as one data point/source on things and I've heard him say to take him with a grain of salt in audio reviews before like the previously posted one with the objective2. I highly doubt he looks upon himself as the be all and end all of technology knowledge. He's a cool guy, and too smart to be that way.

 

I've switched over to an O2/ODAC unit from the Xonar Essence One that I was using before. On most headphones I frankly don't notice much difference, but on my IEMs (Sennheiser IE80) the noise floor on the Essence One is very audible during quiet times even at moderate volume.

 

I can't speak for the Essence STU though.

 

EDIT: by the way, thanks everyone for not jumping all over the OP for having the audacity to consider buying a sound card or similar device. I hope we can continue to keep things friendly here in the audio sub-forum

 

Here we can hear him vent his frustration with this ongoing war in the audio forum. He is referring to a thread that seems to have been moderated now with harsher posts edited or removed. 

Note that he said he hasn't watched any of the Logan/Mayflower vids yet. Also lists specific use cases where an old onboard audio chipset or damaged chipset would not be a viable option over a new soundcard. Another use case in favor of a soundcard over an external usb DAC not for sound quality but for keeping it internal in a pc case rather than having it outside the case.

 

He vents on the audio forum regulars (I think only a couple of statements were unfair about understanding the position we have rather than simple elitism or ego stroking) but other then that I whole heartily agree with his vision for a friendly helpful forum that is as information dense as possible. Sometimes people can go too far, and I've done so before in my many years on the internet. We are human and in the end of the day we just try to improve and do it all again tomorrow. Are there bad apples in any group? Of course. I didn't get to see the unmoderated version of the thread in question, but it seemed it became very inflammatory. That's regrettable, but I feel this time was an exceptionally bad example to our normal dealings in everyday threads.

 

http://youtu.be/6IB7tJu9iqY?t=54m15s

 

 

I would just like to end with a restatement that onboard audio has gotten to a point where you may not need a soundcard. If there is no improvement on audio quality, why not put your money elsewhere like a new set of headphones or speakers! I don't think this is all that outrageous to consider, since as computer hardware enthusiasts, we see technology improve while shrinking in size. Is it so hard to believe we've been able to shrink a proper sound card until it fits perfectly fine on a motherboard? This is a recent development in the last few years of motherboard design (Or at least companies finally decided to), but the word is still getting out there. The audio industry in general (I'm talking about beyond having anything to do with computers) can be a treacherous trek along marketing and made up words to obfuscate the purpose and quality of a product. Simply, products are not competing on a level of pure function and technological design. If you can market a lifestyle, brand appeal, or shiny looks that are more appealing compared with your competition then that is more money going towards your company.

 

I feel that the Audio Forums main goal should be to suggest products that are function over form, rather than form over function. Prioritize performance, purpose, and value for your money over looks and appearance or some gaming coolness factor.Does that mean everything must look ugly? Of course not, but I rather have good performance and value with slightly less looks over a beautiful expensive part that gives me less performance or the latest sponsored MLB gaming team.

 

EDIT:

 

TL:DR Linus can see both sides of the argument and sound cards can serve a purpose in some instances. Also, don't be a mean know it all. Also $30 sound card isn't the worst way to throw away money in the expensive audio world so relax. Any unfair venting is probably due to generalization due to on-air live performance during a show.