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Intel sends subtle reminder to Microsoft about x86 Patent

WMGroomAK
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In a June 8th post by Intel about how the x86 ISA is approaching 40-years of age and is still in wide use, Intel appears to have directed a not so subtle message to Microsoft and Qualcomm about how Windows 10 on ARM with x86 emulation may infringe on their patent.

 

http://www.zdnet.com/article/intel-seemingly-hints-of-potential-patent-infringement-around-x86-emulation-on-arm/

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From Intel's post:

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"There have been reports that some companies may try to emulate Intel's proprietary x86 ISA without Intel's authorization. Emulation is not a new technology, and Transmeta was notably the last company to claim to have produced a compatible x86 processor using emulation ('code morphing') techniques. Intel enforced patents relating to SIMD instruction set enhancements against Transmeta's x86 implementation even though it used emulation. In any event, Transmeta was not commercially successful, and it exited the microprocessor business 10 years ago.


Only time will tell if new attempts to emulate Intel's x86 ISA will meet a different fate. Intel welcomes lawful competition, and we are confident that Intel's microprocessors, which have been specifically optimized to implement Intel's x86 ISA for almost four decades, will deliver amazing experiences, consistency across applications, and a full breadth of consumer offerings, full manageability and IT integration for the enterprise. However, we do not welcome unlawful infringement of our patents, and we fully expect other companies to continue to respect Intel's intellectual property rights. Strong intellectual property protections make it possible for Intel to continue to invest the enormous resources required to advance Intel's dynamic x86 ISA, and Intel will maintain its vigilance to protect its innovations and investments."

I asked Intel if its post was intended to be a warning shot across the Microsoft/Qualcomm bow. A spokesperson's only response, was an emailed statement from Steve Rodgers, Intel executive vice president and general counsel:

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"Intel respects intellectual property rights and we expect others to do the same. x86 technology is both proprietary and central to our business, and we're concerned any time it appears that others may be copying it inappropriately. We will thoroughly evaluate any products that claim to emulate x86 technology, and vigorously enforce our intellectual property rights if we believe they are infringed."

 

win32onawin10onarm.jpg.a879a50a5689583b3837859ece7b6480.jpg

 

As Windows on ARM would probably require some sort of x86 emulation to run Win32 apps that are not on ARM, this kind of emulation would appear to be fairly important for Microsoft to succeed.  I don't think that this will kill the possibility of Windows on ARM, but it may require Microsoft and the ARM processor vendors to pay a royalty to Intel in order to implement this.  

 

Intel Blog Post: https://newsroom.intel.com/editorials/x86-approaching-40-still-going-strong/

 

And just because I actually have an old i486 die hanging around, here is a nice little shot of it...

 

i486.thumb.png.9c2ac686a15c12d4086bffb5bf0f7f14.png

 

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Posted
2 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Is Intel trying to make emulation illegal?

 

Because I don't even.

Yeah what?

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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1 minute ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Is Intel trying to make emulation illegal?

 

Because I don't even.

I'm not sure they want it to be illegal, but maybe licensed at a large fee...  My guess is that they are probably looking at this as something that would seriously eat into their own low-power mobile CPU market and that is potentially troubling to them in terms of selling CPUs to mobile & laptop vendors.

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2 minutes ago, M.Yurizaki said:

Is Intel trying to make emulation illegal?

 

Because I don't even.

I mean... you can't actually expect them to sit back and just take it. That said, this case isn't likely to be actually enforceable, because it is emulation through software translation, which is something more akin to the "IMB PC compatible" days.

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5 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

I mean... you can't actually expect them to sit back and just take it. That said, this case isn't likely to be actually enforceable, because it is emulation through software translation, which is something more akin to the "IMB PC compatible" days.

The only way I think Intel thinks they have a case is Microsoft has intimate knowledge on x86, rather than black-box reverse engineering and publicly available documentation that indie emulator developers use.

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Just now, M.Yurizaki said:

The only way I think Intel thinks they have a case is Microsoft has intimate knowledge on x86, rather than black-box reverse engineering and publicly available documentation that indie emulator developers use.

Either way... no chance in hell intel wasn't going to try to do something about this....

 

But I still don't expect there to be much of a case here.

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10 minutes ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

I mean... you can't actually expect them to sit back and just take it. That said, this case isn't likely to be actually enforceable, because it is emulation through software translation, which is something more akin to the "IMB PC compatible" days.

They don't really have any choice, emulation has been tested in court and the ruling was pretty clear, as long as the emulator is 100% original code and contains nothing written by the OEM then emulation is perfectly legal.

 

Assuming MS haven't used any Intel code in the emulator Intel are pissing in the wind on this one.

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Just now, Master Disaster said:

They don't really have any choice, emulation has been tested in court and the ruling was pretty clear, as long as the emulator is 100% original code and contains nothing written by the OEM then emulation is perfectly legal.

 

Assuming MS haven't used any Intel code in the emulator Intel are pissing in the wind on this one.

Well yes... I agree the chance of them successfully litigating it is very low, but the risk-reward is such that I do expect them to try.

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11 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

They don't really have any choice, emulation has been tested in court and the ruling was pretty clear, as long as the emulator is 100% original code and contains nothing written by the OEM then emulation is perfectly legal.

 

Assuming MS haven't used any Intel code in the emulator Intel are pissing in the wind on this one.

MS doing something wholly original? This is going to end up in court, haha.

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This would be a huge battle, that has potential of deeply hurt Intel.

 - Microsoft could enforce legality of emulations (Best for Intel)

 - Push that the tech is so old that is public domain, allowing a wave of CPU manufacture to come in the PC desktop space. (Harder to push, but will destroy Intel)

 

Microsoft has no choice to fight for this if the company wants to survive.

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This is not about the "how", but the "what". If it requires specific patents to implement a modern x86 processor, that could block ARM and MS. Older patents may have long expired, but we're not building an 8086 here.

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32 minutes ago, GoodBytes said:

This would be a huge battle, that has potential of deeply hurt Intel.

 - Microsoft could enforce legality of emulations (Best for Intel)

 - Push that the tech is so old that is public domain, allowing a wave of CPU manufacture to come in the PC desktop space. (Harder to push, but will destroy Intel)

 

Microsoft has no choice to fight for this if the company wants to survive.

Man... I want to live long enough to see the aftermath of this. I bet theres tons of manufactures just inching to do this. Imagine companies like Samsung and Apple creating x86 compatible cpus?

The amount of choice there would be in the gaming market alone would be insane. 

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The emulation of x86 on ARM has the potential to wipe out Intel from the low end PC market. The very reason Intel cancelled its Mobile SoC efforts were because they couldn't compete on price/performance vs ARM.

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thoughts on impact ton x86-64 (AMD)'s patent

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18 minutes ago, tsk said:

The emulation of x86 on ARM has the potential to wipe out Intel from the low end PC market. The very reason Intel cancelled its Mobile SoC efforts were because they couldn't compete on price/performance vs ARM.

The problem is that Intel is too big of a company and needs a restructure that they don't want to do (due to cost, and takes months even up to a year for things to re-run smoothly). Intel has everything to make their CPU dirt cheap. The main one is that they own their own foundries. But the company is locked in with this massive bureaucracy, non-agile structure, and too many people working that needs to be paid... increasing operation cost by a lot, including the the end product cost. It would also mean that Intel would need to get used to making lower profits, and get used to the model of selling more at a lower price than selling few at a high price. Something that they have trouble with.

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Intel is reeking with desperation lately. x84 is starting to go way obsolete. Would be nice to get something new entirely, although I doubt we will until quantum computers.

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

CPU: Intel I7 4790K@4.6 with NZXT X31 AIO; MOTHERBOARD: ASUS Z97 Maximus VII Ranger; RAM: 8 GB Kingston HyperX 1600 DDR3; GFX: ASUS R9 290 4GB; CASE: Lian Li v700wx; STORAGE: Corsair Force 3 120GB SSD; Samsung 850 500GB SSD; Various old Seagates; PSU: Corsair RM650; MONITOR: 2x 20" Dell IPS; KEYBOARD/MOUSE: Logitech K810/ MX Master; OS: Windows 10 Pro

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1 hour ago, Curufinwe_wins said:

I mean... you can't actually expect them to sit back and just take it. That said, this case isn't likely to be actually enforceable, because it is emulation through software translation, which is something more akin to the "IMB PC compatible" days.

It would depend on how the information used in the emulation was obtained. In the case of reverse engineering using no patented information, Intel would have no grounds for a lawsuit. However, if Intel can prove that protected information was used in making the emulator, Intel can demand royalties. 

My eyes see the past…

My camera lens sees the present…

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1 minute ago, Notional said:

Intel is reeking with desperation lately. x84 is starting to go way obsolete. Would be nice to get something new entirely, although I doubt we will until quantum computers.

We actually have MANY CPU architecture, many of which are in production. ARM is near or is at the top of the mostly used architecture due to smartphone market. A high-end ARM is pretty powerful for a massive amount of people. The same way as a Core i3  or Core M with a decent SSD provides a great experience for them. And maybe in a few more years, would be fine for a budget AAA games as well, if the 835 isn't already.

 

The problem is lack of apps/games. Windows 10 on ARM without x86 emulation will only result in history repeating itself with Windows 10 Mobile. Having "the core apps" is still not enough either. Everyone has their core apps. I am sure someone here will say "OMG Winamp! I can't live without it, even thaugh they don't exists anymore, and the software was never updated for the last 15 years"

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1 minute ago, GoodBytes said:

We actually have MANY CPU architecture, many of which are in production. ARM is near or is at the top of the mostly used architecture due to smartphone market. A high-end ARM is pretty powerful for a massive amount of people. The same way as a Core i3  or Core M with a decent SSD provides a great experience for them. And maybe in a few more years, would be fine for a budget AAA games as well, if the 835 isn't already.

 

The problem is lack of apps/games. Windows 10 on ARM without x86 emulation will only result in history repeating itself with Windows 10 Mobile. Having "the core apps" is still not enough either. Everyone has their core apps. I am sure someone here will say "OMG Winamp! I can't live without it, even thaugh they don't exists anymore, and the software was never updated for the last 15 years"

5

Oh of course. I was specifically talking about PC platforms. But yeah, proper x86/64 emulation would be a necessity to make that work. Question is if MS needs to pay license fees to utilize x86 or if that is just needed if you make chips based on it? 

Also what if the emulation is only x86-64? :P

Watching Intel have competition is like watching a headless chicken trying to get out of a mine field

CPU: Intel I7 4790K@4.6 with NZXT X31 AIO; MOTHERBOARD: ASUS Z97 Maximus VII Ranger; RAM: 8 GB Kingston HyperX 1600 DDR3; GFX: ASUS R9 290 4GB; CASE: Lian Li v700wx; STORAGE: Corsair Force 3 120GB SSD; Samsung 850 500GB SSD; Various old Seagates; PSU: Corsair RM650; MONITOR: 2x 20" Dell IPS; KEYBOARD/MOUSE: Logitech K810/ MX Master; OS: Windows 10 Pro

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Just now, Notional said:

Oh of course. I was specifically talking about PC platforms. But yeah, proper x86/64 emulation would be a necessity to make that work. Question is if MS needs to pay license fees to utilize x86 or if that is just needed if you make chips based on it? 

Also what if the emulation is only x86-64? :P

Looking at how Intel charges thing, everything is laughably expensive.

So I doubt Microsoft is interested in paying anything. I think the company would better fight it, and if they lose, then pay.. the amount be teh same. But that means that Windows 10 on ARM won't be cheap, and that would dig in the low cost of the CPU.

 

Unless MS does "Windows 10 on ARM UWP only edition", but will it sell? No way. This is worst than Windows 10 Mobile. AT least Windows 10 Mobile could run Windows Phone 8 apps. The little it has together.

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11 minutes ago, Notional said:

Also what if the emulation is only x86-64? :P

Well it would be AMD now (but I don't think AMD cares, they'll make ARM based CPU no problem.. I mean they no longer need to pay Intel ludicrous amount... and not have to worry about Intel not renewing their license... which is probably on the line, as it was with AMD Athlon 64 X2 on Socket 939).. but the 64-bit add-on to the x86 architecture can't work alone.

 

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1 hour ago, GoodBytes said:

 - Push that the tech is so old that is public domain, allowing a wave of CPU manufacture to come in the PC desktop space. (Harder to push, but will destroy Intel)

Some patents have expired but it's still impossible to make a modern x86 processor without the latest instructions and extensions. Not to mention how expensive it is to make competitive processors from scratch in a cutthroat David-Goliath business. AMD can barely survive with patents and talented engineers with intimate knowledge of x86. After all there are a third licensee who don't want to make the attempt.

 

In addition: with no network or corporate partnerships, they'll have no chance of getting any design wins.

 

Besides where are the money to be made? Intel owns the majority market and AMD is fighting tooth and nail to carve a bigger piece of the pie for themselves. A new player will face the same or worse than Intel did in the phone business. 

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So if this is a case of patent infringement , why hasn't Intel gone after the QEmu developers yet?

 

Microsoft's "Emulator" seems to be very similar in concept to QEmu's Dynatran, just handled at a higher layer and with less rigid sandboxing/isolation so it can re-use the base parts of the OS.

 

Is the x86 ISA itself patented?

 

The whole state of patents in the electronics industry right now is a total joke. The fact that Intel and AMD can use patents to forcibly lock out other manufacturers from developing hardware capable of processing existing software 15 years later for x86-64 is absolutely ridiculous, much less 32 years for x86.

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