Most of Europe (and Washington State) bands together to tackle the lootbox problem

[Brooksie359]

3 hours ago, Deus Voltage said:

Gambling as defined by Dictionary.com:

 

1) The activity or practice of playing at a game of chance for money or other stakes.

2) The act or practice of risking the loss of something important by taking a chance or acting recklessly.

Merriam Webster:

1) To play a game for money or property.

2) To bet on an uncertain outcome.

Oxford Dictionary:

 

1) Play games of chance for money; bet.

2) Take risky action in the hope of a desired result.

Yeah that's not lootboxes. You aren't wagering anything. You buy a loot box and are guaranteed a set number of random items. It's not a game so it can't be half the definitions up there are the other half are referring to something being a gamble rather than actually being gambling. Preordering a game without a review would be a gamble by this definition but it's not actually gambling in the sense we are talking about. 

[Brooksie359]

3 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

Agreed and the distinction has been made clear. You ignored the part about publishers being responsible with what they sell to kids.

There is an extent to that though. Obviously there are certain thing that shouldn't be sold to a kid like rated m games and the like. They want to sell lootboxes so that's their choice. It's up to parents to allow or disallow them to buy them. 

[Muffin_man17]

1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

There is an extent to that though. Obviously there are certain thing that shouldn't be sold to a kid like rated m games and the like. They want to sell lootboxes so that's their choice. It's up to parents to allow or disallow them to buy them. 

You seem to continue to miss the point over and over, you keep putting the blame on the parents, defending lootboxes tooth and nail from Several members and yet still fail to see the point. If I went to a playground and started selling drugs to kids would you only blame the parents? What if the child doesn't have parents? Then who should you blame, the child for not knowing better? Even if Lootboxes give a specific number of items you still wouldn't be able to tell me what I am going to get, I could receive a $50 item or a $0.50 item, just like if I put a dollar into a slot machine I could receive nothing or $1000. By your definition of lootboxes that would mean that if slot machines gave $0.25 for your $0.50 that wouldn't be considered gambling? Are you secretly a EA PR member!? I'm truly starting to wonder...

 

 

Andrew Wilson EA CEO: It's not gambling, the player always gets something in the loot crate.

[Brooksie359]

40 minutes ago, Muffin_man17 said:

You seem to continue to miss the point over and over, you keep putting the blame on the parents, defending lootboxes tooth and nail from Several members and yet still fail to see the point. If I went to a playground and started selling drugs to kids would you only blame the parents? What if the child doesn't have parents? Then who should you blame, the child for not knowing better? Even if Lootboxes give a specific number of items you still wouldn't be able to tell me what I am going to get, I could receive a $50 item or a $0.50 item, just like if I put a dollar into a slot machine I could receive nothing or $1000. By your definition of lootboxes that would mean that if slot machines gave $0.25 for your $0.50 that wouldn't be considered gambling? Are you secretly a EA PR member!? I'm truly starting to wonder...

 

 

Andrew Wilson EA CEO: It's not gambling, the player always gets something in the loot crate.

These items can't be transferred for money so to say that you receive an item of set value is b.s. because you have no clue to what the item is worth. It's a game and they have lootboxes. This isn't cocaine so stop trying to make it out like these companies are drug dealers. Go talk to fast food places for making people fat. Go and ban people from shopping because people can get addicted. Go there are so many bigger issues than a game selling in game items this way. You are making a mountain out if a hill here. Anything to the extreme and it becimes a problem so stop acting like lootboxes are the issue when its honestly a life lesson on moderstion that is.

[The Owl]

Regardless of being possible to be sold or not, it's the psychological factor that in my opinion counts. 

A pre-order of a product can be considered a gamble in the sense of you might end up not getting what you expect or hyped for, but you do not get bells, flashing lights and special effects that were created with the intent of caughting up the user interest and attention as you do with loot crates. There's no benefit or reward for pre-ordering a second time nor it makes you feel better for doing so, sure you could say those who are affected are weak minded or just need to moderate their lives, but it isn't that simple.

 

There are several books and studies out there that explain and dismantle the various Psychological tricks that are and have been used for decades In several areas, like the music industry, cinema, etc to captivate the consumers or attempt to manipulate their thoughts and opinion. From using certain audio frequencies or tones to transmit 'feelings' (ex: horror movies), use of certain rhythms and beats, visual effects that are flashy and in your face, use of certain words (Pro, Gamer, Extreme,etc...) or the way you even build a sentence, images of all sorts (babies, kittens, logos, Linus Lambo, etc..) all of this can trigger different reactions on each one of us and were specifically designed to hit a part of the population. Same way remakes of movies, TV shows, games are altered/adapted to fit certain popular topics/recent events either be social justice, discrimination or whatever new topic is triggering people.

 

So claiming that this is something that isn't a problem just because it doesn't affect us specifically is a mistake, everyone is an addict, they just don't see their addiction as one. It should be our obligation as a society not to look just to our own bellies, understand that everyone is different, each with their own strengths, weaknesses and help to protect those that are tricked to spend their livelihoods into these things.

 

Edit: 

Forgot the best example, baby/kids TV shows, look into them and the pattern used to grab their attention both visually and audio wise.

 

[suicidalfranco]

And Australia joins the fray

[Mooshi]

I don't mind loot boxes, but dupes can GTFO

[lightningterror]

1 hour ago, suicidalfranco said:

And Australia joins the fray

Seems so

 

[Brooksie359]

11 hours ago, The Owl said:

Regardless of being possible to be sold or not, it's the psychological factor that in my opinion counts. 

A pre-order of a product can be considered a gamble in the sense of you might end up not getting what you expect or hyped for, but you do not get bells, flashing lights and special effects that were created with the intent of caughting up the user interest and attention as you do with loot crates. There's no benefit or reward for pre-ordering a second time nor it makes you feel better for doing so, sure you could say those who are affected are weak minded or just need to moderate their lives, but it isn't that simple.

 

There are several books and studies out there that explain and dismantle the various Psychological tricks that are and have been used for decades In several areas, like the music industry, cinema, etc to captivate the consumers or attempt to manipulate their thoughts and opinion. From using certain audio frequencies or tones to transmit 'feelings' (ex: horror movies), use of certain rhythms and beats, visual effects that are flashy and in your face, use of certain words (Pro, Gamer, Extreme,etc...) or the way you even build a sentence, images of all sorts (babies, kittens, logos, Linus Lambo, etc..) all of this can trigger different reactions on each one of us and were specifically designed to hit a part of the population. Same way remakes of movies, TV shows, games are altered/adapted to fit certain popular topics/recent events either be social justice, discrimination or whatever new topic is triggering people.

 

So claiming that this is something that isn't a problem just because it doesn't affect us specifically is a mistake, everyone is an addict, they just don't see their addiction as one. It should be our obligation as a society not to look just to our own bellies, understand that everyone is different, each with their own strengths, weaknesses and help to protect those that are tricked to spend their livelihoods into these things.

 

Edit: 

Forgot the best example, baby/kids TV shows, look into them and the pattern used to grab their attention both visually and audio wise.

 

Or maybe we should start teaching kids the life lessons that prevent the various types of addictions that come from spending money on whatever their heart desires. I know many people with addiction issues and none of them were prevented by a law. Addiction isn't something you can stop by sheltering people but rather teaching them to handle them. Again you put in game purchases instead that aren't RNG then you will have the same amount of addiction issues. The only real thing that can properly prevent addiction in this case is teaching kids moderation and hopefully not allowing them to purchase any in game items in the first place. It's like everyone thinks that getting rid of the lootboxes won't just make the problem be the microtransactions that replace them. 

[niofalpha]

""Loot Box Problem""

[Master Disaster]

21 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Or maybe we should start teaching kids the life lessons that prevent the various types of addictions that come from spending money on whatever their heart desires. I know many people with addiction issues and none of them were prevented by a law. Addiction isn't something you can stop by sheltering people but rather teaching them to handle them. Again you put in game purchases instead that aren't RNG then you will have the same amount of addiction issues. The only real thing that can properly prevent addiction in this case is teaching kids moderation and hopefully not allowing them to purchase any in game items in the first place. It's like everyone thinks that getting rid of the lootboxes won't just make the problem be the microtransactions that replace them. 

You just don't get it, you can try and teach kids until your blue in the face. I'm going out on a limb here but you don't have kids of your own, do you?

 

What is the first thing a teenager is going to do if you tell them not to do something? It doesn't matter what you say, how you explain, how much you explain, if a teenager wants to do something then they're damn well going to do it no matter what and screw the consequences. I was taught smoking is bad from a very young age by both my parents and at school. Did that stop 14 year old me from trying it? Education didn't stop 14 year old me from getting arrested for breaking windows in an abandoned block of flats either, or pouring paint stripper onto a friend's scooter because he kissed my girlfriend while i was on holiday.

 

You're essentially saying the government's of the world should sit back and allow greedy games publishers to run unlicensed and unregulated gambling stores and continue to aim them at children who aren't even old enough to gamble? All because you have some sense that government shouldn't interfere with parenting? Hate to break it to you but gambling is illegal for under 18s (or 21s) and has been for a considerable period. This is EXACTLY what government should be stepping in to control.

 

Let's assume someone created a synthetic alcohol, it has the same effects as alcohol but because it isn't technically alcohol it isn't covered by alcohol laws. And let's assume these people start selling synthohol to children because technically its not alcohol so it's fine right? Then all of a sudden you've got drunken kids running around everywhere and 17 year old synthoholics. Should the government also ignore that too? I mean parents can always teach their kids not to drink it, right?

 

Stop being so idealistic.

 

(We actually had exactly this scenario a few years back with synthetic cannabis, they were selling it in shops to anybody who wanted it. The government regulated it within a year)

 

There's nothing illegal about selling something to someone. Microtransactions allow the buyer to decide if the item is worth it to them, you see a price, you pay a price, you get your item. Lootboxes remove this choice and make it random, you buy the chance to win something.

 

Microtransactions are not gambling, lootboxes are.

 

[Brooksie359]

3 hours ago, Master Disaster said:

You just don't get it, you can try and teach kids until your blue in the face. I'm going out on a limb here but you don't have kids of your own, do you?

 

What is the first thing a teenager is going to do if you tell them not to do something? It doesn't matter what you say, how you explain, how much you explain, if a teenager wants to do something then they're damn well going to do it no matter what and screw the consequences. I was taught smoking is bad from a very young age by both my parents and at school. Did that stop 14 year old me from trying it? Education didn't stop 14 year old me from getting arrested for breaking windows in an abandoned block of flats either, or pouring paint stripper onto a friend's scooter because he kissed my girlfriend while i was on holiday.

 

You're essentially saying the government's of the world should sit back and allow greedy games publishers to run unlicensed and unregulated gambling stores and continue to aim them at children who aren't even old enough to gamble? All because you have some sense that government shouldn't interfere with parenting? Hate to break it to you but gambling is illegal for under 18s (or 21s) and has been for a considerable period. This is EXACTLY what government should be stepping in to control.

 

Let's assume someone created a synthetic alcohol, it has the same effects as alcohol but because it isn't technically alcohol it isn't covered by alcohol laws. And let's assume these people start selling synthohol to children because technically its not alcohol so it's fine right? Then all of a sudden you've got drunken kids running around everywhere and 17 year old synthoholics. Should the government also ignore that too? I mean parents can always teach their kids not to drink it, right?

 

Stop being so idealistic.

 

(We actually had exactly this scenario a few years back with synthetic cannabis, they were selling it in shops to anybody who wanted it. The government regulated it within a year)

 

There's nothing illegal about selling something to someone. Microtransactions allow the buyer to decide if the item is worth it to them, you see a price, you pay a price, you get your item. Lootboxes remove this choice and make it random, you buy the chance to win something.

 

Microtransactions are not gambling, lootboxes are.

 

Lootboxes aren't gambling. Not matter how hard you try to argue that it simply isn't. It's not a big deal and stop making it out like it is. This is a very simple issue of people spending too much money on things because of being impulsive. You will get the same result with microtransactions. You keep on saying this is gambling but you can't make money off of it. If you could then yeah that's an issue but simply having something being random doesn't all of a sudden make it gambling. 

[Master Disaster]

44 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

Lootboxes aren't gambling. Not matter how hard you try to argue that it simply isn't. It's not a big deal and stop making it out like it is. This is a very simple issue of people spending too much money on things because of being impulsive. You will get the same result with microtransactions. You keep on saying this is gambling but you can't make money off of it. If you could then yeah that's an issue but simply having something being random doesn't all of a sudden make it gambling. 

Just like synthetic cannabis isnt cannabis. Didn't stop them from classifying it the same way in the end though.

 

A rose by any other name.

 

Lootboxes are gambling, simply because they very carefully craft them to take advantage of loopholes in the current law doesn't mean anything except the laws are outdated and need to be updated to include these new types of gambling games.

[Brooksie359]

49 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Just like synthetic cannabis isnt cannabis. Didn't stop them from classifying it the same way in the end though.

 

A rose by any other name.

 

Lootboxes are gambling, simply because they very carefully craft them to take advantage of loopholes in the current law doesn't mean anything except the laws are outdated and need to be updated to include these new types of gambling games.

It isn't about a technicality. It's simply not the same thing. 

[cretsiah]

1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

This is a very simple issue of people spending too much money on things because of being impulsive. You will get the same result with microtransactions.

 

 

given that i know a few parents who are considered reasonably responsible, it didnt help them when there kids just 

a) took their credit card from their wallet, while they were sleeping in the middle of the night.

b) bypassed both the password and fingerprint security options to validate a micro transaction and/or lootbox purchases.

 

these kids ranged from 5-16 (i believe there was even a case of a 3yr old in America)

the arguments with the banks took several weeks to complete.

 

not all gambling is about making money

1 hour ago, Brooksie359 said:

You keep on saying this is gambling but you can't make money off of it.

[Brooksie359]

7 minutes ago, cretsiah said:

 

 

given that i know a few parents who are considered reasonably responsible, it didnt help them when there kids just 

a) took their credit card from their wallet, while they were sleeping in the middle of the night.

b) bypassed both the password and fingerprint security options to validate a micro transaction and/or lootbox purchases.

 

these kids ranged from 5-16 (i believe there was even a case of a 3yr old in America)

the arguments with the banks took several weeks to complete.

 

not all gambling is about making money

Gambling is 100% about making money. And yeah that happens kids do things they aren't supposed to do but that is what discipline comes in. If your kids do something like that you discipline them and explain why they can't be doing that type of stuff. If you make it so they don't want to have to go through the consequences of their actions again then they won't do it again. 

[Muffin_man17]

45 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

Gambling is 100% about making money. And yeah that happens kids do things they aren't supposed to do but that is what discipline comes in. If your kids do something like that you discipline them and explain why they can't be doing that type of stuff. If you make it so they don't want to have to go through the consequences of their actions again then they won't do it again. 

 

Guys Brooksie might be going somewhere with this, since laws don't prevent the transaction from taking place we should just remove laws, drugs - legal, murder- sure why not, afterall the law against murdering a individual never stopped someone from being murdered so why have it? We should just remove the entire justice system and put blame on the parents itself because it's not the government's job discipline anyone...

 

All jokes aside...

 

I am really curious on what you propose the parents do to discipline their children you being a parent and all... What would you do that would make the child think of their actions? Beat them, starve them for a week, lock them in a basement for a year because taking away their video games for a week is not going to do jack sh!t.

 

Life is life, even if you sit down with your child and explain the goods, the bads life is still going to test them whether it's peer pressure, feelings or just the stress of going through new changes to their bodies and lifestyle. Do you really think the children/teenagers need addiction issues added to their plate as well? Do you think that adults with addiction issues just said when they were kids " When I grow up I wanna be an addict! " It starts with a simple idea of " This isn't that bad compared to X " and works up from there.

[Brooksie359]

1 hour ago, Muffin_man17 said:

 

Guys Brooksie might be going somewhere with this, since laws don't prevent the transaction from taking place we should just remove laws, drugs - legal, murder- sure why not, afterall the law against murdering a individual never stopped someone from being murdered so why have it? We should just remove the entire justice system and put blame on the parents itself because it's not the government's job discipline anyone...

 

All jokes aside...

 

I am really curious on what you propose the parents do to discipline their children you being a parent and all... What would you do that would make the child think of their actions? Beat them, starve them for a week, lock them in a basement for a year because taking away their video games for a week is not going to do jack sh!t.

 

Life is life, even if you sit down with your child and explain the goods, the bads life is still going to test them whether it's peer pressure, feelings or just the stress of going through new changes to their bodies and lifestyle. Do you really think the children/teenagers need addiction issues added to their plate as well? Do you think that adults with addiction issues just said when they were kids " When I grow up I wanna be an addict! " It starts with a simple idea of " This isn't that bad compared to X " and works up from there.

You take away their ability to play the game for a month then yeah they are going to think twice about doing it again. If they are spending a bunch of money on these things for the game then they find the game very important to them. You take away their ability to play said game any you will be showing them that it's not a good idea. You always like to compare lootboxes to heinous crimes. Let's not exaggerate here because if you think lootboxes is as bad as hard drugs then you might be on some because that is completely insane. We should make fast food illegal because it's bad for you. My justification is that murder is illegal so I should be able to make other things illegal. Oh wait that makes zero sense because the reasoning is incredibly dumb. That is exactly the same reasoning you are using. It's a randomized microtransactions not cocaine not first degree murder. Please stop trying to make this same argument as it's really bad. 

[Master Disaster]

3 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

It isn't about a technicality. It's simply not the same thing. 

Under the current definition...

 

Listen i feel were at an impasse here, neither of us are likely to agree any time soon and we're both entitled to our own opinions so let's agree to disagree on this one.

[Muffin_man17]

36 minutes ago, Master Disaster said:

Under the current definition...

 

Listen i feel were at an impasse here, neither of us are likely to agree any time soon and we're both entitled to our own opinions so let's agree to disagree on this one.

I have to agree with MasterDiaster, we all grown up with very different lifestyles and backgrounds so I believe it's safe to say we are all going to have our own opinion on this subject. All we can do is sit back and watch everything unfold.

[Master Disaster]

18 minutes ago, Muffin_man17 said:

I have to agree with MasterDiaster, we all grown up with very different lifestyles and backgrounds so I believe it's safe to say we are all going to have our own opinion on this subject. All we can do is sit back and watch everything unfold.

Yep, it's cool we can have adult discussions without resorting to flaming and name calling though.

[cretsiah]

8 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

You take away their ability to play the game for a month then yeah they are going to think twice about doing it again. If they are spending a bunch of money on these things for the game then they find the game very important to them.

this doesnt always work with kids, it might work with "normal kids" but doesnt always work with autistic kids.

 

i know in one particular case the kid lost his

motocrocross bike + gear and his 3DS  + games as a consequence (but hey they have money to an extent at least).

 

given that in some countries the rights of parents to discipline their kids has actually been taken away, to the point for basic actions can see them have their kids taken off of them, or be charged with abuse, or even taken to court.

[Brooksie359]

3 hours ago, cretsiah said:

this doesnt always work with kids, it might work with "normal kids" but doesnt always work with autistic kids.

 

i know in one particular case the kid lost his

motocrocross bike + gear and his 3DS  + games as a consequence (but hey they have money to an extent at least).

 

given that in some countries the rights of parents to discipline their kids has actually been taken away, to the point for basic actions can see them have their kids taken off of them, or be charged with abuse, or even taken to court.

If you try and create laws so that autistic children don't do things they aren't supposed to then you are 100% doomed. Not being able to discipline in some country doesn't justify it at all. The problem would be with those laws barring them from parenting properly and not anything else. You don't create one law to compensate for a bad one. You just get rid of the bad law. I am also curios what you mean by basic actions and what is considered abuse? Because when I think of that I think of people hitting their kids which isn't ok so I am unsure what else would fall under that. 

[Mihle]

6 hours ago, cretsiah said:

this doesnt always work with kids, it might work with "normal kids" but doesnt always work with autistic kids.

 

i know in one particular case the kid lost his

motocrocross bike + gear and his 3DS  + games as a consequence (but hey they have money to an extent at least).

 

given that in some countries the rights of parents to discipline their kids has actually been taken away, to the point for basic actions can see them have their kids taken off of them, or be charged with abuse, or even taken to court.

There are many other ways than punishment to learn your kids stuff. Like if it's a problem the kid does regularly, for example give them a bonus when they dont it, rather than punish them when they do. And especially with autistic kids. I am high functioning autistic myself.

 

Also, no one should ever be allowed to do anything physical punishment at all against their kids, if they do they should have the kid taken away from them. 

[cretsiah]

um yep ok ?? either you dont have kids or you have been lucky with your kids, and not all kids react the same way.

 

" Like if it's a problem the kid does regularly, for example give them a bonus when they dont it, "

my aspie turned this into an extortion racket. ie give it to me or i play up.

also if you tried to punish by removing the toys, he would help you throw them in the bin/ charity bag. (ie if you threatened it, he would do it of his own volition).

 

the idea of effective consequences or behavioural control was mute on him.

 

"Also, no one should ever be allowed to do anything physical punishment at all against their kids,"

 

"Because when I think of that I think of people hitting their kids which isn't ok so I am unsure what else would fall under that. "

there is a severe difference between punishment and abuse, I do not advocate for abuse, physical or mental.

mental abuse usually is the constant running down of a person.