Dota team disqualified for macros

[spartaman64]

1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

You listed a few quote not every tournament there is on the matter.  That's literally only a handful.

you want me to list every tournament LOL these are the ones at the top of the search results when i google fighting game tournament rules. and so far not a single one of them allows it

[ItsMitch]

12 minutes ago, spartaman64 said:

you want me to list every tournament LOL these are the ones at the top of the search results when i google fighting game tournament rules. and so far not a single one of them allows it

i'd give up on um, lost cause, brick wall would be better

[JoeCoke]

3 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

The people who force these rules sound like salty children who throw their controllers after they lose a game.

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The point is that I love a challenge, and if someone wants to offer me one by using macros then have at it.

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My way is called not being child over a game.

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I see a challenge and more fun, not cheating. 

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You see a cheat, I see a higher difficulty.  I am a challenge seeker, not a greedy salty controlling child who makes silly rules for the sake of greed.

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Fight in my ninja gaiden black tournament, but don't hit Y cuz that's cheating cuz I said so.  Don't question that just fucking conform.

I.... I... You... I mean....

I have nothing else.

[pas008]

lol not allowed and then using them is cheating plain and simple

 

 

[Daegun]

2 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

Nope, just refuse to give into the "because big bad senpai said so!" logic. 

You're not even strawmanning anymore, you're just blatantly misrepresenting their arguments... 

[The Benjamins]

3 hours ago, spartaman64 said:

you want me to list every tournament LOL these are the ones at the top of the search results when i google fighting game tournament rules. and so far not a single one of them allows it

I already did that, he just says something how it no longer helps in modern fighting games so it makes it not valid or something. At this point he has to be trolling.

[spartaman64]

52 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Ben compared a macro to using an illegal drug, but I guess you missed that.  I didn't realize we were talking about the whole ADHD med problem a few years ago.  But, fuck me when I do it.  The op stated that he was using a tool in Razer's own sw as a cheat, and that the only reason it is a cheat is either because the tournament holder said so, so deal with it.  Or, because they view it as a putting the player at "a great disadvantage."  And, in my opinion, that is a bs a reason.  And, that no I am not going to conform to the idea that the tournament holder's word should be final.  Another person brought up that it would be boring if someone used macros to win, and that would lose them viewership.  So, their reason behind it is greed then?  Another person said I would care if there was money on the line, but the problem is that I don't give a fuck about money.  I simply care about gaming for the challenge and having fun.  The other thing is that it's not the same thing as hacking, using an ADHD medication to benefit you[right here is where he could have used the steroid argument], or network manipulation.  Nope, he went into Razer's own sw and changed a setting.  I see that as no different than a fighting game dev putting a macro in the game itself because both are easily available options.  It's not the player's fault the other/s didn't choose to use it.  It would be like me bitching that some guy used a 144hz monitor in an arena shooter when I used a 60hz one instead.  I could have bought one, but I didn't.  That's my own fault and not them cheating.

If you watch any modern fighting tournament between 2 players and the switches on the controller are in the middle or to the right, they have turbos on.  Just because 5 of the main tournaments don't allow it doesn't mean others do not.  There are literally hundreds to thousands of tournaments annually.  Some allow 3rd party macros and some do not.  Some allow turbos and some do it and I explained to you why.  I also explained why they don't use it, and why a turbo is fucking useless.  And, if they do it use it they're fucking around and making themselves an easy target.

ofc small local tournaments arent going to be as strict about rules but i expect all national/international events to have rules against this. small local tournaments arent serious

[Daegun]

Alright, let's go through this step by step since that's a nice big wall of text. This is gonna be a long one so buckle gently.

 

17 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Ben compared a macro to using an illegal drug, but I guess you missed that.  I didn't realize we were talking about the whole ADHD med problem a few years ago.  But, fuck me when I do it.

 

You were the first to compare them. The closest anyone came to saying that was saying that they're both cheating. Ben made this exasperated statement in response to a handwave by you to ignore another post.

On 6/25/2018 at 1:34 PM, The Benjamins said:

You must also be ok with steroids for athletes because "Oh boohoo it's a game"

No one said that they were comparable but you. You're also the only person in this thread to mention adhd medications.

 

 

51 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

The op stated that he was using a tool in Razer's own sw as a cheat, and that the only reason it is a cheat is either because the tournament holder said so, so deal with it.  Or, because they view it as a putting the player at "a great disadvantage."  And, in my opinion, that is a bs a reason.  And, that no I am not going to conform to the idea that the tournament holder's word should be final.

OP never actually said the second part, he only said why it was an unfair advantage.

 

Razer isn't the one holding the tournament or even a sponsor, so the fact that it was Razer that made the software and not some random person has no meaning. There's no laws against the blood doping that cyclists used to do, yet that's something that's still banned from the Tour de France and any other major cycling competition and will see you disqualified and barred from any future race.

 

This does put a player at a disadvantage, whether you agree or not. This allows a player to do something inhumanely fast, something that is physically impossible for another player unless they do the same thing. If you were to match up players of equal skill level but allow one to use macros and forbid the other, the one with macros would be more likely to win simply because of the macros, and that is an advantage.

 

The tournament holder's word isn't final because they're the tournament holder and they say so, it's final because the players participating agreed to their terms in order to play, one of them being rules that would result in disqualification if broken. Again, whether you agree or not doesn't matter, this is a contract they signed to participate and they broke it knowing full well what the penalties could be.

 

 

1 hour ago, valdyrgramr said:

Another person brought up that it would be boring if someone used macros to win, and that would lose them viewership.  So, their reason behind it is greed then?  Another person said I would care if there was money on the line, but the problem is that I don't give a fuck about money.  I simply care about gaming for the challenge and having fun.

That is true, if it was a competition of the best macros rather than the best players it would only appeal to an even more niche audience than the current one, but that doesn't mean it's greed. You can be successful and earn money without being greedy, and as far as I know they haven't done anything excessive enough to qualify as greedy.

 

I can't solve your feelings on a subject for you, but not caring about money or anything but fun doesn't legitimize rule breaking in a tournament that the players have agreed to these rules.

 

 

1 hour ago, valdyrgramr said:

The other thing is that it's not the same thing as hacking, using an ADHD medication to benefit you[right here is where he could have used the steroid argument], or network manipulation.  Nope, he went into Razer's own sw and changed a setting.  I see that as no different than a fighting game dev putting a macro in the game itself because both are easily available options.  It's not the player's fault the other/s didn't choose to use it.  It would be like me bitching that some guy used a 144hz monitor in an arena shooter when I used a 60hz one instead.  I could have bought one, but I didn't.  That's my own fault and not them cheating.

Again, not a single person has said they're the same but you. The closest anyone has come to saying that any of these things are the same is in saying that they're all cheating.

 

How easily available it is to use or obtain is completely irrelevant, nor is it the same as the dev putting the option in. There are many different programs that don't modify game files or interfere with other players but give the player an advantage, all of which are banned from tournaments regardless of availability.

 

It's certainly the players fault when it's something that is explicitly stated is against the rules. It is entirely their fault, either for ignoring them or not reading them and knowing what they were. If a tournament allowed both 144hz and 60hz monitors and you chose to use a 60hz one, then you're right, but this comparison doesn't fit what happened here and is misleading. A proper comparison would be that a tournament only allowed 60hz monitors and someone was caught using a 144hz monitor and disqualified for it. They *were* cheating here, that isn't something that's up for debate.

 

 

2 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

If you watch any modern fighting tournament between 2 players and the switches on the controller are in the middle or to the right, they have turbos on.  Just because 5 of the main tournaments don't allow it doesn't mean others do not.  There are literally hundreds to thousands of tournaments annually.  Some allow 3rd party macros and some do not.  Some allow turbos and some do it and I explained to you why.  I also explained why they don't use it, and why a turbo is fucking useless.  And, if they do it use it they're fucking around and making themselves an easy target.

Please, show us any large tournament that allows them. I believe this is the third time now that you've made this claim without any evidence to support it, meanwhile those on the other side of this argument have provided links to the official sites for multiple that have expressly said they're banned. It's on you to provide evidence on this claim, not on others to disprove something you've claimed without a single scrap of evidence to back it up.

 

When you talk about hundreds of thousands of tournaments, you seem to be talking about even the little unofficial ones high schools or workplaces will have, that's the only way to reach that high of a number. Of course these little ones might not have rules against them, they likely aren't serious tournaments, only something for fun between friends and coworkers. When we talk about tournaments, we're talking about the large formal tournamnets that actually have significant prizes and draw in spectators beyond the families and friends of the participants, trying to equate these smaller, informal tournaments to them is, again, misleading.

 

 

 

Almost everything you've said so far has been misleading, a strawman, or blatantly misrepresenting another's words. None of your arguments hold any water under the smallest bit of scrutiny.

[The Benjamins]

5 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

If you brought steroids with you to a sports match you'd be arrested and auto-disqualified, if you brought any method for blood doping you'd be questioned and likely auto-disqualified, if you brought a modded controller you'd be disqualified, if you brought scripts for cheating you'd be disqualified, but if you bring a controller with macro options via sw/the driver and they don't disqualify you right there on spot then that's just shitty regulation and making it an openly available option.

Not sure how other games work, but if riot games find evidence of macros during hardware inspection when players have to give the hardware to them before they lock and store the hardware for LAN use you will get disqualified. And before a match they have a 15 min setup and practice time before the match starts with refs watching.

[pas008]

1 hour ago, valdyrgramr said:

 

Well, it doesn't seem like Valve did any form of an inspection here like that. I mean it would also be easier if they did that or just outrighted banned devices that have the option.

wow

you just keep going dont you

as a player in the tourney/league you should know the rules and what you can and cant do period

 

simply stated they dont allow it and you use it

its called cheating period

 

[pas008]

8 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Well, the guy who did it thought it was okay since it wasn't a script and part of the driver.  Valve also failed to do an inspection beforehand like Riot apparently does.  Also, don't be a hypocrite.

lol hypocrite

 

he knows the rules,

wow they didnt check so its ok lol wow

in all sports do they check every player for a banned substance and check every players gear before heading out on the field/court/arena/etc no, 

players have the responsibility too

 

[ItsMitch]

20 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Valve also failed to do an inspection

Are you being serious? 

[pas008]

1 minute ago, SC2Mitch said:

Are you being serious? 

I know right?

no accountability

[pas008]

6 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Where was the inspection mentioned in the article?  And, again even if they did one and people still do it just ban the device in the first place like they ban modded controllers from being used.

what? players have accountability too

he chose to use something that wasnt allowed plain and simple

and if he didnt know he couldnt then he is responsible for knowing the rules

 

just like any sport

[JoeCoke]

What I learned in boating school today is:

 

1. Rules are probably only made by salty children who throw their controllers when they lose.
2. People who follow the terms they agreed to follow are conformists.
3. Cheats aren't bad, they're fun!
4. Rules only exist because of greed.
5. People who like to take games seriously are greedy.
6. Even if it's your tournament that you're hosting, you shouldn't have the right to make rules.
7. Because a third party company introduces a feature, it should automatically be legal, no matter what, even though that third party has nothing to do with the tournament holders or game developers.
8. You should have the right to disobey rules/laws you signed an agreement to follow.
9. In game controller configuration menus and third party software are the same thing.
10. Because some tournaments do or allow something, they all should. (Even though that conflicts with the conformist complaints.)
11. Disallowing cheats is hand holding.
12. Being a professional gamer means you most likely only care about the money.
13. Don't complain about cheats, just get good.
14. If you say that macros/turbos are cheats, then you just suck.
15. Competitive players don't like fun.
16. If you disagree with some of these points then you're likely a salty child.

Did I miss any?

[pas008]

45 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

In sports, they do much heavier moderation, inspections, testing, and so on.  Valve did no such thing nor banned the device itself.  iirc, a previous cheating claim was put against them via a DDoS giving more reason to add an inspection and heavier moderation.

player accountability is nothing right?

 

exactly ty have good day sir