Dota team disqualified for macros

[ItsMitch]

1 hour ago, valdyrgramr said:

think it's incredibly stupid to have a rule against macros when most other tournaments allow them

Care to bring up which event organisers openly allow macros? 

[The Benjamins]

2 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

No, it does not that's just the ones you know.  I've seen several events, especially fighting ones, use fight sticks with turbos to macros it's nothing new.  I see people using macros in Unreal tournaments and I've seen it at Quakecon it's nothing new.  These are all major events.

 

Well IMO that stupid, first time I knew the openly supported it.

 

but again Their is a very big portion that bans it, and PER THIS topic it is banned. and you still think its ok to violate the rules of a tournament.

[spartaman64]

4 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

If a company like Corsair, Logitech, Hori, or so on makes it then it is fair use.  If someone is bitching over something like that then they're salty over a fucking game.  Now, if the person is forcing you out of the game, lag switching, abusing the standby on their router, shooting me through a wall, and so on then ya that's cheating.  But, changing a key bind or using a macro that anyone can use because of the open availability by the dev or a  company like a Logitech then I see it as fair.  Maybe it's annoying, but I don't see that on the same level as the other crap.  Plenty of games allow macros, especially fighting games and FPS games, but anyone crying over it in a MOBA is purely salty.  Now, maybe I missed it, but if it's a mod by a third party who also makes crap like wallhacks then maybe/I guess that's cheating.

except its not just a fcking game when there is thousands of dollars on the line. and no game allows macros in a serious tournament setting

[spartaman64]

1 hour ago, valdyrgramr said:

I think a rule should be challenged.  The thing is you have more of a chance of beating someone using a turbo or a macro than someone using lag to their advantage because you can still hit them.  You can still easily beat them if you have skill, and considering these people have skill, fighting against someone using a macro or a turbo should not be a problem.  Otherwise, why are you even in this tournament in the first place?  FFS I fight people all the time in KOF games using turbos and macros, and I know Terry's moves like the back of my hand, and I still kick the shit out of them.  Even fighting against most cheaters I can still get a 1-2 kid and win because cheaters, actual cheaters, use the most predictable tactics to win. 

this is probably a lan tournament. there is no lag. and i dont understand your argument that because another method allows you to cheat more then the method before should be allowed. 

[The Benjamins]

3 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Oh boohoo it's a game, and there are plenty that do.

I never said there was lag, and if you can't beat someone using a macro or turbo then you don't belong in these tournaments.

You must also be ok with steroids for athletes because "Oh boohoo it's a game"

 

And if everyone at the tournament is on equal skill then those with macros would be at a advantage, I don't get how that fair or how you would expect to lose to people not using cheats.

[spartaman64]

29 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Steroids are illegal last time I checked.  Go to any fighting game tournament and look at a hori or other brand fight stick that they commonly use.  See the switches?  Turbos!  See the added buttons?  Macros!  "It puts them at an unfair advantage!"  FFS just block and use a special, throw, and corner them before they can get up.  Ta fucking da.  If you are in a tournament like this, and you can't beat a guy using a macro or turbo then why the fuck are you in the tournament?  Just strategize against their macro or turbo it's not that difficult if you are good at a game.  It doesn't put them at an unfair advantage because every macro and turbo, especially from big companies, are still beatable.  It's really not that difficult to beat them, so the "unfair advantage" argument is silly.  FPS game, just bitch kill them in the most cheap way possible.  Halo Reach, for example just keep tossing sticky nades on them.  Destiny, just ability kill them or use an smg.  Quake and Unreal pretty much exploit the hell out of distance weapons or abilities.  Ya, it's annoying, but if you can't find the flaws in them using that themselves then you must not know the games well.  This isn't a third party "cheat" it was them using Razer's sw, iirc.  Is using the snipe button on an m65 pro now also cheating because it drops the dpi of the mouse to 400?  

just because something is beatable doesnt mean its not cheating. i can beat someone with wallhacks if i have better aim but that does not make wallhacks legal

[spartaman64]

3 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Ya, a wallhack isn't officially licensed hw or sw, Razer's sw and hw is.  That's the difference.  Not my fault the UCP, Ultimate Couch Potatoes, can't deal with legit hw or sw.  Did the OP not say they were using Synapse, not wallhack.exe?

so if razer makes a wallhack then its automatically legal in tournaments ok

[spartaman64]

2 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

It wouldn't be licensed like Synapse because that's a cheat.  This is licensed sw settings, and not a cheat.  FFS, if change my resolution is that now cheating?  If I use a 144hz monitor while I fight a guy using a 60hz monitor, is that now cheating?  If I have McDonald's wifi is that now cheating?  Hey, that guy beat me and my feelings were hurt, cheating.

actually yes in a tournament setting if everyone else has 60hz monitors provided by the organizers and you brought your own 144hz monitor and used it without them knowing you will probably be disqualified

[Sauron]

On 24/6/2018 at 8:54 PM, Paranoid Kami said:

It's cheating if one button does multiple actions.

Or at least, it is if the tournament specifically doesn't allow it. Personally I'm not against using macros to overcome UI limitations, after all most of those are just there to artificially inflate the skill cap or due to poor design.

19 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

Isn't it the point of competition to have skill-only, non-assisted competition?

 

I'm surprised some are even entertaining that this kind of thing would be ok to do: this is why we watch: to watch some Korean guys play at 300+ APM not to watch some guy endorse Razer cheating products.

Then again this is a purely speed driven action that says almost nothing about the skill of the player except perhaps how fast they can press two buttons. When you watch a starcraft pro playing at 400 apm it's only impressive if they're actually doing something clever with that speed, something that couldn't be emulated by one button press no matter how many macros you're using. If Valve had added one button to the UI that lets you recall all clones I doubt anyone would complain because it adds nothing to the game.

 

"Non-assisted competition" is a bit of an oxymoron when you're talking about videogames; everything you do is by defnition tool assisted. To prevent this sort of situation the best thing to do would be to only allow a specific set of peripherals among which the players can choose and provide them on the spot, but this must be done way in advance and it could be argued that it would place some players at a disadvantage, as not everyone is equally comfortable on a given piece of equipment.

 

Of course, if it's explicitly against the rules it is cheating and should be punished accordingly.

[aezakmi]

13 hours ago, jagdtigger said:

Except macros do not modify the game like cheats.... Most of the time it just replicates keystrokes.

yeah in an unrealistic way, without macros there's no way you can press 5 to 10 keys in under .1 seconds, that could be considered as cheating because it gives you a huge advantage over regular players that don't own elite keyboards

 

basically like the hacked controllers to cheat in fighting games like sf back in the 90s or 00s

cheaters always find a way because they lack the skill to play w/o cheats

[Daegun]

Valdyrgramr, are you being this dense on purpose? Because it really seems like it. Every time someone has given you a reason why a specific kind of macro (not all macros) are banned from competitions and should be, you ignore it and then just repeat what they've already countered. This is a little embarrassing to watch tbh. 

[ItsMitch]

2 minutes ago, Sauron said:

Of course, if it's explicitly against the rules it is cheating and should be punished accordingly.

this tbh 

[ItsMitch]

5 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

just not seeing why these tournaments don't come with safe spaces too

Break the rules, get punished? fairly sure that's common practice in most major tournaments. 

[Daegun]

4 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Not ignoring just not seeing why these tournaments don't come with safe spaces too.

Yeah, it's a real shocker and so insane of them to punish players for breaking rules. All those little babies complaining about it should just man up. 

[ItsMitch]

3 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Rules are also not always justified.

Erm?

[The Benjamins]

1 hour ago, valdyrgramr said:

Steroids are illegal last time I checked.  Go to any fighting game tournament and look at a hori or other brand fight stick that they commonly use.  See the switches?  Turbos!  See the added buttons?  Macros!  "It puts them at an unfair advantage!"  FFS just block and use a special, throw, and corner them before they can get up.  Ta fucking da.  If you are in a tournament like this, and you can't beat a guy using a macro or turbo then why the fuck are you in the tournament?  Just strategize against their macro or turbo it's not that difficult if you are good at a game.  It doesn't put them at an unfair advantage because every macro and turbo, especially from big companies, are still beatable.  It's really not that difficult to beat them, so the "unfair advantage" argument is silly.  FPS game, just bitch kill them in the most cheap way possible.  Halo Reach, for example just keep tossing sticky nades on them.  Destiny, just ability kill them or use an smg.  Quake and Unreal pretty much exploit the hell out of distance weapons or abilities.  Ya, it's annoying, but if you can't find the flaws in them using that themselves then you must not know the games well.  This isn't a third party "cheat" it was them using Razer's sw, iirc.  Is using the snipe button on an m65 pro now also cheating because it drops the dpi of the mouse to 400?  

So Doping is fine because its not legal, even if its against the rules? That is what Lance Armstrong did.

 

You also argue that License software is ok, so the cheating software that is licensed that I have is ok, thanks good to know. but this argument make no sense who licensed it, well the company that made it, not the game or tournament operator. In reality developers do NOT endorse the use of the software, which is why its against the rules.

 

[The Benjamins]

7 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

How dare they change a setting in officially licensed SW!

Licensed BY WHO, its not the devs or tournament operators, it is Licensed by the software developer aka keyboard manufactures.  

[Daegun]

7 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

Rules are also not always justified.

And you've been explained to in almost a dozen posts why this one is justified and have ignored all explanations to repeat what you'd already said or strawman whoever had replied to you. 

[Misanthrope]

55 minutes ago, Sauron said:

"Non-assisted competition" is a bit of an oxymoron when you're talking about videogames; everything you do is by defnition tool assisted. To prevent this sort of situation the best thing to do would be to only allow a specific set of peripherals among which the players can choose and provide them on the spot, but this must be done way in advance and it could be argued that it would place some players at a disadvantage, as not everyone is equally comfortable on a given piece of equipment.

Except we already have a perfectly reasonable threshold: the tools that the game developers have decided you should be allowed to use.

 

If the game designers were to allow certain actions to be performed simultaneously they would put that macro on the game themselves and let you assign a shortcut on your keyboard.

 

Sorry but you're over-complicating this a bit too much when it really isn't: You should only be able to automatize the actions the game allows for since it's balanced for those (Or at least that's the intention). You're finding excuse to justify cheating, plain and simple.

[JoeCoke]

9 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

I think a rule should be challenged.  The thing is you have more of a chance of beating someone using a turbo or a macro than someone using lag to their advantage because you can still hit them.  You can still easily beat them if you have skill, and considering these people have skill, fighting against someone using a macro or a turbo should not be a problem.  Otherwise, why are you even in this tournament in the first place?  FFS I fight people all the time in KOF games using turbos and macros, and I know Terry's moves like the back of my hand, and I still kick the shit out of them.  Even fighting against most cheaters I can still get a 1-2 kid and win because cheaters, actual cheaters, use the most predictable tactics to win. 

Your argument for allowing cheats is... Get good?

[Sauron]

10 hours ago, Misanthrope said:

You're finding excuse to justify cheating, plain and simple.

I'm not, and I clearly stated this is to be considered cheating as it is against the rules of the tournament. All I was saying is that I believe this sort of thing should be allowed, provided all players have access to it.

[ScratchCat]

On 6/24/2018 at 10:43 PM, Christophe Corazza said:

He might just have really really really fast fingers 

1cm in 0ms. I think for infinite speed you forgot a few 'really's.

On 6/24/2018 at 11:01 PM, jagdtigger said:

I dont think using macros are equivalent to cheating, there is a ton of free software that lets you do this. So there is no unfair advantage in using a resource that is accessible to anyone.

If I installed free software which linked into the game to give me an aimbot that would be cheating.

If I installed free malware on my competitors PCs to block keystrokes that would be cheating

If I installed free software which gives me infinite health that would be cheating.

 

Using freely available software is not the same as playing by the rules in a conventional sense - you are modifying the same in an unexpected manner.

[spartaman64]

1 minute ago, valdyrgramr said:

They do, it's in the driver.  But, clearly, Razer is making cheats for the game.

people who dont have razer mice dont have access to it

[Misanthrope]

19 minutes ago, Sauron said:

I'm not, and I clearly stated this is to be considered cheating as it is against the rules of the tournament. All I was saying is that I believe this sort of thing should be allowed, provided all players have access to it.

No it should not: As I said already the game is not intended to allow it so it shouldn't be allowed. Having equal access is not the only issue at hand yet you're phrasing this as if it was ok if it was equal access for all. It doesn't takes into account players stuck with a character that wouldn't have advantage of those macros.

 

Quite simply if the game developers didn't code the game thinking that could be done then allowing people to do it if they "all could" would still break the game, turn it into a boring, one sided affair of everybody always using the same tactic and anybody getting that character winning almost by default.

 

You either play the game as intended or play another fucking game competitively.

[The Benjamins]

3 hours ago, valdyrgramr said:

Oh no!  Not everyone has a 7.1 gaming headset, that guy's a fucking cheater!  Burn him!



Oh no!  That guy has a better skateboard!  Ban him from the X games!  Oh no!  That guy has a nicer pair of cleats!  Ban him from every Soccer match!  Oh no!  That guy has better gloves!  Fucking cheater!  Oh no!  That guy is using beginner tactics in a cage fight!  I can't win!

 

So I looked up some of these fighting game tournaments and so far all of them ban macro/turbos

 

CEO 2018

CAPCOM PRO TOUR

EVO

Sonic Boom Tournament

 

At this point you look like you have been lying I can't find ANY tournament that allows it, please provide at least some that do.

 

Most of the Devs don't approve

Most tournament events don't approve

Most Players don't approve

 

why cater to a small majority

 

I use the word most becasue I have not checked EVERYONE, but everyone I checked don't allow it.